Industrial Automation

I agree with Del's spot-on answer.

The only issues about electric cars are cost and range. Range is not an issue if you purchase a car for in-town driving where gas consumption is typically the worst. A second vehicle, which most of us have, works fine for longer trips using conventional fuels. Since most people's driving is in-town and to work (short commutes), current rages are not a barrier to the economy that electric propulsion will offer.

Cost of the vehicle and its battery replacement is another issue altogether, but the industry is very young and the technology just beginning. No electric car commercially produced today is something you would buy based on savings.

I am forced to disagree with your argument, but I would at least welcome some data supporting your claim that recently electric automobile promoters have given us the idea that recharging batteries will be simple and efficient. Who are making what claims? What does "simple and efficient" mean? Could pulling an overhead cord in your garage and plugging it into a car's receptacle be considered simple and efficient when you return home?

If the batteries are lead acid I would agree. But most are using Lithium-ion. Which have much shorter charge time. There are manufactures already working on improving that. Some say they have developed batteries that can be fully charged in a matter of minutes. So if i can fill up as I park and go grocery shopping why not have an electric vehicle will save me the trouble of driving to the filling station after I have gotten the groceries.

I question what the cost of the charge is going to be. I see it as more of a hurdle to the public's acceptance. Initial cost of the infrastructure to provide these outlets is not going to be cheap. The companies providing them will need to see a return to cover this cost. So the charge may not be cheap with few vehicle using them.

Some say they have developed batteries that can be fully charged in a matter of minutes.

I do not know about the recharge in minutes.

One thing about the charging of your car as lets say....grocery shopping. You return, your car recieved and increased its charge...but not fully. how hard is this on the batteries by the constance partial recharge?

Don't the batteries have a number of cycle times of recharging, no matter if its only a partial charge, it still counts as a charge?

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/12/new-lithium-ion-process-could-lead-to-super-fast-charging-still/

http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=6579

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0503/05032903tosh1minbatt.asp

http://inventorspot.com/articles/mit_designs_fast_charging_lithium_ion_batteries_could_change_ele_25304

Thanks....now I know the terminology I was looking for is Battery Memory.

most common in nickel-cadmium battery's.

thanks for the links

Memory has to do with the effective maximum recharge based on the previous charge history. NiCd was worse than Lithium, but even Lithium has it to some degree.

All battery technologies suffer from a limit to the number of charges that they can take before they chemically break down and are rendered useless.

The rate of that breakdown (number of recharges) depends on how the battery is discharged and how it is recharged as well as environmental conditions.

understood......

My company had a Yale electric industrial (DC Drive Motor) forklift, purchased in near new condition and installed a new battery weeks after purchased. we followed a charge schedule pretty tight.

Yale had just come out at the time with a AC power, more powerful, some interesting info

thanks

I remember reading about WiTricity in the past two weeks. Somewhere in the article, or a post about it someone suggested adapting that technology to EV charging. The idea of pulling into a garage with a transmitting unit in the floor was put forth.

Now, what about paid parking spaces at the grocery/department store with such a device for cars fit with the receiving portion? I know more often than not I will go in to the Mart and not plan to be long. However, If the cost is reasonable for an hour or so, I wouldn't be as reluctant to throw some money at charging while I'm busy anyway.

Plugging in a possibly damaged cord and having who knows what happen doesn't sound enticing. No, I don't feel I am assuming too much in thinking the equipment will be abused and neglected. But I want to see EV's become the common vehicle NOW.

I apologize for going in so many directions. I wish I had the funds to work on one myself. Along with the education to take on such a task.

Is this way off topic?

Imagine you own an EV fit with Witricity's device. When you pull into the Mega-stores lot you see only a few spaces with the transmitter. They happen to be empty because there is a "gate" to close access to the spot. As you pull up to the group of spots clustered together a small light on the dash blinks, you look out and see a beacon on the space available. When you push a button on the dash next to the blinking light the gate opens to allow you into the space. A small display in the dash requests the amount of time to charge the vehicle while you are absent and informs you of the charge format involving charge time and idle park time. You get out of your car, insert a bill, swipe a card, take a ticket or what have you, and go into the store. Once back out to the car, you finalize the transaction by recieving change, getting reciept, or have paid ahead in the store with the ticket.

Crazy, Yeah?

Hi,

Came across a battery charger for 12V 100AH battery. This charger includes an inverter and it seems to charge even a battery that has been sitting for over two years and uncharged.

It would seem to me that the charger like that needs to be placed in the car and also needs a system where a battery bank can be changed at a gas station.

I believe that something like a solar cell on the car and spare battery bank that can be replaced as and when required is a minimum requirement. It means there is a charge trying to charge the battery whenever there is sunshining and then at the gas station further charge can be added if there is time. If not at home rest can be charged overnight if possible.

I have a vehicle that runs on electricity and/or gasoline, and have many friends with electric vehicles. Charging with electricity is simple and efficient. The truth is not that charging ten-minute-recharge-capable batteries will take hours. With an adequate electrical source (480V 600A) ten-minute-charge batteries take ten minutes to charge. Imagine that.

Yes, I really want an electric car.

Just like the cell phone networks that now cover our cities, a network of battery swap stations is the short term answer. You'll get a pro-rata price on a fully charged battery based on the remaining charge in the battery you trade in. It's already happening in Denmark. Checkout the newspaper article http://www.smh.com.au/small-business/entrepreneur/plug-in-or-perish-car-industry-warned-20090724-dvy9.html

But the energy in your electric car's battery probably still comes from a coal-fired power station.

I agree with your point about recharging the vehicle batteries being a pain in the butt, but not everything you said accurately represents the options available.

First, based on the current battery technology no one expects the Electric Filling Station(power point) concept to be viable. You are completely correct that no one wants to sit around for 3-4 hours while their vehicle tops off on electricity, but the battery technology is starting to change. Huge amounts of money are pouring into all kinds of battery R&D programs. This is starting to bear fruit with numerous new technologies for dramatically increased charge rates and solid increases in battery energy density. We aren't likely to see these batteries in cars for at least five years, but I didn't expect to see battery powered cars taking over our roads before then anyhow.

Aside from pure improvements in battery technology there are numerous alternative suggestions for the refueling issue. The idea of standardized batteries that can be swapped out at refueling stations has been proposed. I was involved in a team that developed a battery swap out system for a pure electric race car. The challenges with the concept are more political and commercial than they are technical. I personally don't think the concept is going to fly but it shows people are thinking about the options.

The real breakthrough will be when the new level of supercapacitors come out. Eestor is a big maybe in this department, but other companies with more solid reputations are starting to make inroads on supercapacitors that could be a breakthrough technology for vehicles. When you change from electrochemical charging to electrostatic charging all the charge time issues fly out the door. At that point it all depends on the electrical delivery system and not the power storage system. Power stations could easily become a reality.

At this time your aversion to electric vehicles as the primary vehicle is probably justified. I see the role of these vehicles in the short term differently than you are proposing. Most households in America have two vehicles. It is very easy to see one of those vehicles being an electric and the other being either a hybrid or more tradition petroleum propulsion. As long as one vehicle was capable of taking the family on long road trips there is no reason why the other vehicle couldn't be an electric that you charge each night at home. The electric would be a perfect vehicle for running around town, going back and forth to work, etc. Those are the activities we do 90% of the time anyhow.

As technology improves and demand through adoption increases there will be new solutions to the filling station problem. If only for one reason, there will be money to be made and greed always prevails.

Even if this change to electric vehicles is wonderously successful it will be a 20 year adoption cycle. We are right at the begining of it, so don't be so quick to shoot it down.

-Doug

Once again, I don't know about the pollution footprint of lithium-ion batteries, but lead-acid battery production and recycling pollute more than the equivalent gasoline engine over the life of the vehicle. This also takes into account the pollution costs of making the electricity, since the Green Meanies don't want us using nukes, or damming rivers for hydro. And everyone seems to forget that a watt is a watt, so if you're going to charge at home, you're limited to 220VAC input into a charger of what efficiency? An on board charger is going to weigh plenty if it is to produce the requiem amperage for a fast charge.

Spot on!

The reality of it is that governments seek to control energy and there will never be a utopia where energy is freely available and cheap that people so lovingly believe in.

Even if fusion becomes a reality tomorrow it would not change things because energy is political power and politicians and governments will not relinquish power.

I agree, and before others decide to beat me up for my comments, I would like to state that electric vehicles in a technical point of view is a good idea to explore, however when you take a step back and look at the whole real-world picture, it may not be so rosy. I also think that there is not a good road map for the future in place yet. It seems like we are trying to jump ahead too far too fast without the proper infrastructure in place to support EVs. Recharging at home is one thing, doing so while out and about is not in place. I think a technology to bridge the gap may be a better option instead of shoving these EVs into the market, like exploring more in diesel/electric hybrids (why the hell does it have to be gasoline?). I would still have the same argument however, if people started buying up diesel/electic hybrids that get say 70mpg for arguments sake, then the demand for diesel would lower (as well as gasoline) due to less consumption, so taxes would escalate to facilitate road construction, etc. I would say it is also highly likely to expect paying some lovely fees for battery disposal and recycling as well.

I would also like to question the ranges of the vehicles. I believe it was the Volt that has a 100 mile range per full charge. So...does that mean at the 100 mile mark the batteries are completely drained, so realistically it is sluggish at say 80 or 90 miles?

Volt's published range is 40 miles.

If you drive in Chicago and keep up with traffic I would be surprised if you get 15 miles. ;-)

I think you would notice engine performance loss at about 80% to 90% discharge, maybe with Lithium/Ion it would be even better.

To me thats absolutely pathetic. The Ford Electrica's built back in the early 1980's would do that easily just using 16 LA golf cart batteries and were able to run highway speeds (60 Mph+) and had reasonable acceleration too.

I know this for a fact because I owned one I restored and drove. Now My mom has it and regularity drives it just like standard vehicle. Hard driving at highway speeds still gets 20+ miles per charge and 50 - 60+ miles with low speed town driving.

How did 25 years of battery technology and electronics improvements along with electric motor improvements not produce a cheap, powerful, long range vehicle? But instead produced short range, marginal powered, and high priced clown cars?

How did 25 years of battery technology and electronics improvements along with electric motor improvements not produce a cheap, powerful, long range vehicle?

Unfortunately, there has not been a mass market for light, powerful, energy-dense batteries of the size appropriate for vehicles. (For fork trucks and golf cars, LA batteries work fine.) Therefore, more modern batteries are still hideously expensive. So the Volt's range is intentionally low, so that the battery pack can be relatively small, and the car can cost $40,000 instead of the $100,000 for a 200 mile range Tesla. The gas engine removes range anxiety. You use it as an electric car most of the time, but don't need to worry when you want to go 80 miles in a day.

The prices of Chinese LiFePO batteries are down to about $500 per kilowatt hour (the Tesla's pack is about twice that). At that price, the Volt's pack would be $8000 (whereas and the Tesla's is about $60,000). The Volt has the potential for being a mass market car, and if it is successful, it could help to drive down the cost of batteries. (At the same time, there will be continued growth in the Chinese market for electric cars, so batteries from China will continue to drop in price.) $40,000 is too expensive for a car like the Volt, but they might make the decision to price it lower and recoup R&D costs more slowly... (Not that there should be any R&D costs: the first plug-in hybrid was the Loehner-Porsche of 1903.)

Well, it looks like China is considering banning the export of rare earth metals....that certainly won't help the cost of EVs among other things.

then the government will lose the taxes from gasoline and diesel sales. They would recover that tax revenue somewhere, and it doesn't seem unlikely that they would not increase taxes on electricity drastically, which would also affect the cost to heat/cool/etc. your home,

True, the government would lose taxes from petro, if it came down to it, they would tax electricity for you home.....with the reasoning, they are just transferring (actually adding) the incoming tax revenues from gasoline to electricity....and keeping both, while the user pays the same...probally a little more over-all taxes.

phoenix911

I am disturbed about an issue that never comes up in all these discussions about electric vehicles. The fact is, electric vehicles PREDATE internal combustion powered vehicles- by more than half a century (first electric auto patented in Scotland some time around 1835 or so). Fact is, in the early 1900's, electric automobiles OUTNUMBERED automobiles powered by internal combustion engines.

If you want to make a successful electric powered personal vehicle, you should really pay attention to why they failed to maintain market share in the first place. If electric cars are so wonderful, why were they so easily replaced in the market by the internal combustion engine a century ago? What has changed today that would make them more viable than they were in the past?

Same problem then as now; energy density.

Internal combustion engines quickly became lighter and more powerful and with greater range than the electric counterpart. Not to mention cheaper.

Still holds true today. That doesn't mean it will never change, but the market will drive that when it does.

As I understand, electrics were originally favoured because of the ease of starting (you originally had to hand-crank the old ICEs) but when electric starters came along, the increased range of ICEs won over.

With battery technology far ahead now and rapidly increasing, electrics will be favoured because in all other respects, electrics are superior - max torque at zero RPM, few few moving parts, virtually no maintenance (change the brushes every 100,000km), high efficiency(80-90% vs. 25%) therefore minimal cooling required, virtually no vibration(minimal structural shock/fatigue), very low noise, no oil replacements, no filter replacements, no fan belts, (therefore less waste/contamination), etc, etc...

Steve

Following the blogs I realize the diversity of knowlege on the issue. This is not to suggest ignorance but the availability of accurate and unbiased information.

Mr. Ford origionally designed his automobiles to run on electricity, government pressure ( and control of fuel sources) caused change.

It's true that nearly half of the US power production is fueled by coal, another 40% by oil, both of which promote green house gases, and hydroelectric is even worse due to methane gases released from submerged decaying material. Methane is four times as bad as CO2. I worked with a group trying to use ground tire rubber as a catalyst to double the energy yield in coal. The EPA approved it, but it was squashed by big money.

Photovoltaic systems are highly touted and promoted by our politicians. The drawback is rapid degradation of the PV panels (5% per year) and only a 17 to 24% conversion efficiency when new. Not to mention quality control issues in manufacturing, assembly, and maintenance. (lots of electrical connections)

Solar Collector (SC) systems are more efficient 25-34% conversion rate and less degradation over time. The drawback is the heated medium degrades and requires replacement and disposal (oil). Recent info suggests that a 5 mile square area can produce all of California's current electricity needs. Certain politicians are blocking this development due to personal interests in PV systems. Their claim is it would cause environmental damage to the desert. The real beauty of the SC systems is that excess energy can be diverted to heat storage systems to provide power generation even at night. The high tech storage system is salt (molten). This could provide all of the energy needs for our and all nations.

Battery technologies are progressing rapidly, but just as carrying 20 gallons of highly explosive fuel onboard, they too are potentially dangerous. Not to mention extremely heavy. There are battery systems that are usefull today that can help jump start the demand for future improvements. Recent developments in deisel fuel systems are promising lower emissions levels by combining up to 50% gasoline in the mixture during injection. This technology can improve the Hybrid electric outlook almost instantly.

The predominant battery that Government Motors (GM) is using is NiMH, where as China and Tesla are using LiFePo batteries which are 50% lighter. The problem with these technologies is recharge rates. The faster you recharge the shorter the life cycle. New LiFePo batteries can be charged at 5C (5x capacity) to permit a 12 minute recharge (theoretically), but the 2000 cycle life is reduced to 500. Although this is still greater than Lead Acid battery life, but four times the cost.

Short trip usage of pure electric cars can be augmented by stations at work and shopping malls. A two hr shopping spree can typically produce at least 70% charge, and with your "preferred customer card", free. A great marketing scheme for retailers. Would you spend 10$ to fill your customers car if they were spending $150 dollars or more for groceries, gifts or appliances? Yeah!

BlueTooth embedded appliances are commonplace, and your vehicle would just tell the dispensing station what power requirements it needs, and the station could do the rest. Simply plug in your cable and go shopping. Same for the house. The big plus is you will protect your cable a lot more than than one for public use. Some examples are in use in Au.

Vanadium RedOx is another very promising technology where the electrolite and not the structure (plates) carries the stored energy. Just pull in to a station, exchange the electrolite and go. Could be very usefull for freight and buses. Also developed in Au.

And for the gentleman who has the old electric car, a new controller with Regen braking capability could extend the range up to 30%. FYI.

Sorry to be so long winded but I'm sure some of this may be useful.

Striving to be part of the solution and not the problem.

The bottom line is cost per mile. If most of my driving is within the range of the electric vehicle (round-trip) and I don't have to make too many trips in a day, the electric vehicle will be far ahead of the gas-guzzler on fuel costs, and the wait for charging will not be a major issue. However, if the batteries are too expensive, that would cancel the energy price advantage. I disagree with the person who said motor maintenance would be a negative for electric vehicles. A properly designed electric motor should easily outlast an internal combustion engine, and would never need an oil change. At most, it might need periodic bearing replacement.

Highway usage taxation is a different issue. Various government entities are working on mileage taxes, but unfortunately are taking the most intrusive, burdensome and unfair approaches possible, as governments seem wont to do these days. A mileage tax unfairly penalizes small lightweight vehicles, making them pay for the same amount of road wear as the larger, heavier ones. (In this respect, the per gallon taxes on gasoline and diesel are as fair as one can get since fuel use is roughly proportional to the forces the vehicles exert on the road.) Far worse are the various schemes to monitor each vehicle's position and compute a mileage tax bill based on the data. The privacy issues are flatly unacceptable. Something like this would be a tremendous negative for electric vehicles if enacted.

I have a tax plan based on power delivered to the motor that is difficult to cheat, readily enforceable, does not require vehicle tracking or the filing of tax returns, and is approximately as convenient to pay as the current liquid fuel taxes. I'll not say more because of intellectual property considerations, and I need to refine it to make it simpler and cheaper for both citizen and law enforcement. I'm only saying this much in hopes of forestalling the bureaucrats plotting mileage taxes.

If someone else can devise a convenient and equitable means of paying for road maintenance without vehicle-derived taxation, I'll happily consider it as an alternative to my concept.

Your statement that it is never going to be like pulling into a filling station and leaving in 2 minutes is not correct - Altairnano company has batteries which recharge to 80% in 1 minute and 100% in 10 minutes. The Better Place Project is installing battery changeout stations where one drives in, the batteries drop out vertically, and a newly recharged pack popped in place in a minute or so. Please let's look on the positive aspects of changing from our present low-efficiency, complex, high-maintenance polluting ICEs to the elegant, efficient, clean, low maintenance and smooth electrics. By charging them off renewable energy (and there's plenty of that) this mode of transport is also clean at the source. As far asl range goes, there are technologies being developed (silicon nanowire batteries) which will give vehicles about 10x the present range, ie. 1,000-1,500km on a charge.