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Rockaholic Adventures

Rockaholic Adventures is the place for conversation and discussion about outdoor excursions. You'll also read reviews written from the perspective of today's technologically-advanced outdoorsman - one with a background in engineering and geology. Here, you'll find everything from discussions about geology-related engineering disasters to insights about how advances in technology have transformed modern-day extreme sports.

Rockaholic Adventures also covers topics such as urban planning and other anthro-induced changes to the access and preservation of natural areas. The blog's owner, Shawn, holds an A.S. from Hudson Valley Community College (HVCC) with a concentration in science and engineering, and a B.S. from the State University of New York (SUNY) at Albany with a major in geology.

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14 comments

Wager Ten Oysters

Posted May 02, 2010 5:01 PM by Shawn

A recent article, posted on MSNBC on April 22nd of this year, suggests that officials are neglecting to react to the global carbon budget as seawater acidity rises. Research is lacking needed funds, perhaps because the only solution to this problem is to stop burning fossil fuels. As the shell fish population decreases and other affected ecosystems respond, maybe we will spread the message that we need to act now.

The Chemistry

The basic building blocks of shell fish and related organic mater in our oceans (such as coral) is the carbonate ion. This ion is balanced in proportion to the hydrogenated bicarbonate and carbonic acid ions at a given pH. Any fluctuation in pH shifts the balance from what living organisms need into a hydrogenated / acidic-rich environment where the carbonate ion forms complexes with hydrogen. Small fluctuations in acidity have dramatic effects on living organisms that rely on the carbonate ion.

History

Since the industrial revolution, we have seen unsurpassed rates of change in oceanic acidity. No fluxes of oceanic pH of this magnitude have occurred over the past 21 million years. Models also predict that the magnitude to which oceanic pH drops over this century will more than triple the observed drop in pH levels over the past century.

Observation

In a controlled environment like what environmental conditions will be a century from now, shell fish are growing 41% smaller than their counterparts living in present day conditions. These drastic changes will without a doubt affect coral growth, shellfish growth, and yields from fishing vessels. This direct response doesn't even consider compounded decreases in primary production which decreases the ocean's ability to absorb carbon dioxide. Food chains will also be affected, ultimately decreasing the organic portion of our ocean and allowing for ocean deserts to expand and consume a very valuable natural resource.

Resources:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36713115/ns/us_news-environment/

http://www.corrosionsource.com/technicallibrary/corrdoctors/Modules/Seawater/Ions.htm

http://www.ocean-acidification.net/FAQacidity.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonate

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Guru

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Germany 49° 26' N, 7° 46' O
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#1

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/04/2010 4:31 AM

Hi,

where is the carbonate going to be deposited if no longer in marine organism shells?

How big may be the amount of carbonate to be in permanent solution in the oceans if pH is raising? Temperature shall be included as solubility sharply rises as temperature is going down!

This is in contrary to most other solubilities that go up with temperature!

More questions: is anything known about the "big bangs" of Permian to Triassic and Cretacien to Tertiary times. At the first bang there was a major switching from non-carbonate to carbonate deposition. At the other event a switching back.

Marine fish life survived but may be shell-fish was in severe problems.

I do not know enough to really argue here. But as I feel that there will not be a significant reduction in CO2 emission we should discuss some scenarios what may happen.

In wild-life any sea living shell-fish has to have protection against predators: thick shells.

In more modern "aqua-farming" this may not be necessary any more. So will we have oysters with very thin shells?

Please give some more information.

RHABE

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Active Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 19
#2

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/04/2010 10:35 AM

Well ...consider Ph and co-factors important for marine sustainnability and as a general rule for ALL biological organisms,including VIRUS ! !

The Progress implies a price ...NO regulation and efective control OF THE LEGAL MONEY circulating around will project voracious future with CHINESE people and the

ASIANS(tics)consuming exponencial resources,as "Transformed fish",and because the ecosystem are inter-linked,you and me well be promoted with "Genetic BEEF presentation",a generous gift from the NutriGenomicsFUTURES ...! !

Welcome to this inter-related vision ....

... and for your remenbering future and weekend,(re)visit the "Matrix revolutions".

I dont embrace The hollywood ILUSION,but pay attention,to the "architect" and the

agent SMITH ....NEO and friends will be VICTIMS ??.............

ALEX MOTTO

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Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2365
Good Answers: 63
#3

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/04/2010 1:20 PM

Actually the basic bio-available form used by nearly all life forms is bicarbonate (much higher solubility), not carbonate. You find this form as a buffering compound in most organisms. Shifts towards carbonate prevalence drive the overall carbonic species concentrations down drastically. So depending on the pH, usually slightly above neutral, you could actually increase the bio-availability of carbonic species by a slight decrease in pH. Also, don't most of the plankton use silica based structures, particularly the phytoplankton, and aren't they the base food source. It seems obvious that a pH shift can change the the equilibrium between sopecies in the oceans, but some important species are likely to perform better under the conditions while other not so much. so are we really talking about a oceanic desert or more of a shift from a Pine forest to a Maple forest type replacement condition as environmental conditions change.

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Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Averill Park, NY
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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/05/2010 8:36 AM

Any disruption to the food chain will initially decrease primary production. It is a very broad statement to suggest a darwin'ist approach to anthropogenic influenced changes to oceanic pH will allow life to exist. Living corals and shell fish have seen declines in growth and abundance. In a controlled environment it is clear that both organisms will not prosper from ocean acidification.

Here is another resource.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070308220426.htm

Be careful what you suggest with any balanced chemical equation using bicarbonate alone. The carbonate series is controlled by temperature and pH. Decrease pH and increase sea surface temperature and we will continue to observe negative impacts on marine environments.

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"There isn't a scientific community. It's a culture. It is a very undisciplined organization." ~ Francois Rabelais
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Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Aloha or
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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/05/2010 7:12 PM

There is a problem with that report. As temps go up so does Ph. co2 is less soluble at higher temperature. Co2 forms an acid in water and is where much of ocean acidity comes from. It is extremely unlikely that temp will go up and acidity will also go up. What is most likely is that if ocean temps go up acidity will go down and Ph will go up.

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Power-User

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/06/2010 8:38 AM

At our present rate we are likely to see atmospheric carbon dioxide reach over 500ppm over the next century. With the increased partial pressure and saturation of surface oceans with CO2 models predict a decrease of 0.31 pH. Increased CO2 causes dissolution of calcium carbonate. With the increased concentration we will see a rise in the the carbonate compensation depth. This explains why there are fluctuation in limestone deposits of long periods of time. All of these dynamics are known and included in predicted models. The ocean dynamics are rather compelling. Maybe our influence on them even more so... ?

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"There isn't a scientific community. It's a culture. It is a very undisciplined organization." ~ Francois Rabelais
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Guru

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Location: California
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#10
In reply to #5

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/06/2010 11:45 AM

Are you suggesting that the theory of evolution is wrong and the fittest forms of life won't evolve, but rather that all life can only survive in a static controlled environment. I might believe that some life forms would suffer and other propsper from changed conditions. By the way what was the highest atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration that has occurred since crustaceans have been in existence, and how did they survive through that?

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/07/2010 12:36 PM

Darwinism holds truth under natural selection. Our environment is nothing but static and in theory a steady state or dynamic equilibrium. I will investigate how many hundred millions of years since atmospheric concentrations where this high... though if Im not mistaken about 300 to 400 MYA and around the era of near planet extinction at the end of the dinosaur era... We were all created from single cell organisms. But why waist the world we love.

__________________
"There isn't a scientific community. It's a culture. It is a very undisciplined organization." ~ Francois Rabelais
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Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2365
Good Answers: 63
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/10/2010 11:59 AM

KT event occurred about 65 million years ago that was the end of the Dinosaurs. The P-Tr event occurred about 250 million years ago and was the event that lead to the rise of dinosaurs, and one of the largest events (this is the event where nearly everything died including a huge die off of the numer of calcium carbonate shelled or structured species). Ice ages began about 1 million years ago. Our environment is not steady state and static.

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Power-User

Join Date: Apr 2005
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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/12/2010 1:46 PM

First I apologize for not reviewing more resources before replying earlier. CO2 may have been elevated well beyond the current concentrations over the past milloins of years. Although in recorded history and supported by ice core data over the past 400,000 years we have seen CO2 concentrations rather well correlated with paleoclimate reconstructions porimarily controlled by the milankovich cycles. "recyclic periods of chane of eccentricity, obliquity and precession."

With few exception up until the little ice age there was good correlation of climate and green house gas concentrations. Anthropogenic influences have removed CO2 as a climate tracer and possibly derailed us from a cooling trend. The theory of our environment acting under a steady state process suggested normal cyclic repetive changes. And whether or not we had been in a post-start up phase steady state environment or a dynamic equilibrium is up for debate. I by no means pretend to know the answer to our fate but the real question and fear is if there is a tipping point and if our fingerprint on mother earth is one that will evolve to a healthy future.

I know I'd feel a lot better, if I could live under a negligible carbon foot print where renewable resources supplied the modern needs and technology supported the growth needed to create such infrastructure. Gotta love the windmills towering over the small town I live in.

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"There isn't a scientific community. It's a culture. It is a very undisciplined organization." ~ Francois Rabelais
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Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mindanao, Philippines
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#4

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/05/2010 4:54 AM

Where can I go to find raw data on the alleged acidification of the oceans?

This sounds like a very convenient substitute scare to replace the global warming fraud, now rapidly losing credit with the public.

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Active Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 19
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/05/2010 10:22 AM

Well ...youll survive the next 2 or 3 decades to see... The real experiments of Marketing ideas that have a real component(s) ...

More,i insist,if WE dont reduce drasticly our ProSome (ads to our instinctiv western patterns) well dye,absorbed in turbulent social wars ... fighting from "basic" things like water,air or sustainable soils ....and FISH not contaminated by radiation and/or biochemical in-primary reactions ...

The response,not adequated yet ...is to adapt "your" genetic code to accept "transgenic moisture"...

Thats possible ...but desirable ?

Ask your proprietary FenoTYPE ! ! ....

(AlexMotto)

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Guru

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: California
Posts: 2365
Good Answers: 63
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/05/2010 7:31 PM

What is the pH of the various Oceans at now (I realize the pH various depending on proximity to river outflows, silt content, temperature, etc.). How far below neutral is it? considering that near neutral is ideal, and natural fresh and ground waters tend to be slightly above neutral in most places.

Also, what is a ProSome some ad for a potion or concoction? and what is a FenoType? I hope you are not playing the a biologist vocabulary for the word phenotype as some marketing scheme, or i guess even worse don't know how it is spelled (obviously spelling with an F instead of ph could not be a typo). Also, what does a phenotype have to do with genetic code, which would be represented as a genotype? Is this whole discourse some "environmental" marketing scam?

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Active Contributor

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 19
#11
In reply to #8

Re: Wager Ten Oysters

05/07/2010 11:38 AM

Not at all RCE ...

Marketing campaigns request today for LOYALTY ....CMO knows the importance from

inducing loyalty ...

Im going far beyond ...True ilusion in possible WORLDS! !

WHO knows about "Conscience afectation" ?"Concatenation" is retro-subliminal indoctrination ...GENES will follow naturally the way of true and deeper LOVE .

About genetics and other aggregates...YOU,implicit knwledge,what can tell ME

of <CrypticMorphs+Biosemiotics",Krylov and Hilbert spaces ...>will promote JOHN NORSEEN ? ? ? ? ....................

YOUR proprietary "FENO"Type is resident in about 2.5% of your GENOME.

Ask LLNL(Lawrence Livermore National Lab...)of "interesting things",they possible tell you ....

Regards,till next week.

(Alex Motto)

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