Power Generation and Distribution Blog

On my property the front line deterrent system runs on four legs and is powered by Pro Pac dog food.

The second line of defense is a surprise.

One of the most efficient security systems to the date; and can be trained not to eat anything except from your hand.

It can only be defeated by a criminal who has targetted your house and doesn't care using weapons or breaking thru walls; but that, would involve considerable hate, maybe for a reason; but as long as you're an honest and decent man, you can pretty much rely on your good old beast.

Yahlasit

This is true and one reason to have 308 NATO as a last-step backup. It creates a new definition for the term cover. There is not a tree anywhere around here that would fit that definition. :)

And another goood answer for the smartest cat on CR4

When the poliss seem happy enough to use anti terror legislation for people taking a photo of St Stephens Clock Tower (as every tourist in London does) clearly there is wide scope for the use of anti terror powers. If the substation fed a key installation - air traffic control etc, then it is far more important than the trifling issues HMP seem to warrant using anti terror legislation. I agree that interrupting power should be treated far more seriously than purely the financial value of the copper. To me its obvious that the value of your crime is the impact it has not the cost of the component but you would spend years arguing the toss over impact values so I guess thats why the law isnt bright enought o do so.

BTW, I think it's my being called an idiot which roused support, not simply my viewpoint.
I'm happy to be dissagreed with, I'll even take being called an idiot or worse when it's backed up with a reasoned argument.
However in this case I'm the one who has justified my opinion, and I still see it as an offence against the state e.g All of us.

I also think there has been some differing of viewpoint depending on the country you are in.
In the UK there can be no justification for stealing infrastucture...people aren't doing it to avoid starvation.

I fully agree with your last point...
Today's problems of theft and Terrorism should NOT be confused. Both however, bring to light a similar lack of determination on our part to actually DO something about it.

Del
I think I'll go have a cat nap now

Hear hear. You're a good man Del, er. . .cat.

In a direct answer to the OP: I believe people attempting to seal copper should be empowered. . . with an amperage relative to the amount stolen.

-A-

Del, SURVIVORS can be prosecuted (or perhaps prostituted? =b). The rest just get buried.

It is truly amazing how much of a mess 00 buckshot can make when properly applied.

The police should keep in contact with scrap yards as they do with pawn shops. The electrician is the only one using copper so he should keep all his supplies securely locked up in a container. Locate it outside the site in open view, well lighted; or if the site is in an isolated area, locate the container away in a public area, or better yet, take it with you when you leave for the night.

Actually, they are ripping the metal out of AC units on residential and commercial properties, so it isn't just electrical copper, but plumbing, AC, heating, and more.

other than booby traps, alarms, dogs, guns and electronic tags, if the price for scrap metal were lower, the desire for it would be lower too.

The city here made those that received the stolen material accountable. They where told that if they didn't want the responsibility to close up shop. They had to document the receipt of all scrap that they received taking the individuals name and address from acceptable identification. Most of these dealers closed shop. Closing shop kind of tells you where the were getting most of their recyclable materials from.

One of the major highways in Florida was having trouble with people taking down aluminum light poles during the day and stealing both the aluminum pole and all the wire. They started leaving the power on 24/7 and that problem went away.

In my country things got even worst a couple of years ago, thieves did not only steal cables, but also ornamental bronze plaques from statues, streets and cemeteries. The most daring was caught by the police when he was about to steal a statue called "The Archer", by Rodin from an important square, here in Buenos Aires! Things cooled a bit down when police started keeping an eye on scrap yards.

Oh boy, this is an international curse. Our thugs actually pull down live high voltage transmission lines by the mile, leaving entire towns without power. The scrap dealer IS the culprit to nail. Then we have our bright telephone company that uses outside contractors to install cable for them....go figure how often our cables get stolen since the outsiders were appointed. Good business, steal the cable tonight and get paid to re-install it tomorrow, only overheads......bribe for the contract and labour. I agree with Dell, shoot the fools at dawn in the city square.

Oh, my god ! I can't believe you said that ! " shoot the fools at dawn..."

Why ??? couldn't it be a little later? I don't want to miss the show.

Yahlasit

This is Africa....no one goes out in the midday sun. Well except "mad dogs and Englishmen" not even cats (Dell stay out the sun, it'll scorch your coat)

All persons selling any significant amount of metal must provide an affidavit of salvage/ownership and mode or place of acquisition in the state of California.

They must show Valid ID to get paid. The buyers are as liable as the sellers if the above is not followed. It is periodically and randomly checked.

Sellers often forfeit payment, and the material, in order to avoid prosecution.

Unfortunately that is easily bypassed with a fake flea market ID and forged documentation....

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, what I'm really suggesting for the UK is a new 'crime' (although something suitable probably already exists on the statute books) of willfully damaging the infrastructure to the detriment of the public (or some such fancy lawyer wording), if this carried a very severe sentence which was well known it may deter the casual stealing of vital signal wires from railways which could seriously endanger life and similarly phone lines etc.
Del

I'm pretty sure there is an extant law, with some hefty custodial sentencing as a consequence.

I think catching the blighters* is the difficult bit.

Nicking things from Railways is particularly "interesting" since you'll be hunted down by the Transport Police, who aren't quite like the ordinary Police...and then prosecuted by both, I think. I'm a bit hazy there, but "interferring with the Railway" has a whole suite of laws of its own, mostly started by the Victorians and thus suitably vicious.

Where's ol' PWSlack when you need expert advice on Railway matters?

*blighters in the British sense. Roughly translated to US English: b*^*£ little £$^**%s

Uh oh. I've been saving my extra pennies for years. Of course some may not be copper anymore.

Things in New Jersey got so bad that ( several years ago) thieves cut a chunk out of what they thought was an exposed phone trunk line.... Unfortunatly it was all fiber & crashed networks all over the east coast for a while. Imagine their surprise when they walked in to the scrap yard.... We have some pretty strict laws in Jersey now...of course one never knows just how well they're enforced.

As bait, a length of .50" copper tubing with cleverly concealed conductors connected to an unlimited feed, controlled by sensors, with sufficient capacity to instantaneously vaporize the "bait" tube.

You could call it the "Arc Flash Copper Theft Deterrent System" or AFCTDS.

"Smell that? That's the smell of victory"

Also the start of prision time for the guy that set it up - the thief wouldn't have to worry about that.

"Also the start of prision time for the guy that set it up"

Interesting, all this talk about various weaponry and I get the cigar.

I KNOW this would be illegal.

Geesh!

But you see, at least in civilized places (unlike Chicago where mere ownership of a gun is banned in violation of the second amendment, at least for now) the use of deadly force to protect yourself or your property can be justified. HOWEVER, if deadly force is the FIRST option used, you will most likely go to prison as well. Deadly force must always be the last option after all other options are exhausted. Your plan would have deadly force as the ONLY option. THAT is what makes your plan illegal and shooting the b@st@rd legal (probably).

The question is: How Do You Stop Copper Thieves?

I did not say it would be the FIRST option.

I live south of Chicago where ownership of a gun is not banned. (I will omit my location from my profile, as this seems to be a negative connotation, which is not seen for any other members location).

My suggestion stems from the frustration one feels when a theft occurs, and the visual gratification of a fireworks display! (Although a misdemeanor offence in IL.)

Post a notice letting potential thieves know it's easier to nick lead off a church roof

Use Aluminum or make sure the inside of the copper housing is very dangerous to mostly anyone entering the compound / storage area...hopefully you have a legally valid warning sign on the outside and only tell authorized people how to enter safely.

That is so sad you would consider killing someone who is stealing copper by making the

"make sure the inside of the copper housing is very dangerous to mostly anyone entering the compound / storage area...hopefully you have a legally valid warning sign on the outside and only tell authorized people how to enter safely"

I guess your priorities are much difference, tisk tisk. Having the value of metal higher then the life of a human being.

Wonder what your mother would say?

My mother would be reloading my other clip.

there are plenty (entirely too many if you ask me) social safety nets (both charity and governmental) for people. stealing is stealing and there is NEVER an excuse for it.

What? you are addicted to drugs? maybe you shoulda thought about that before you decided that "just one hit won't addict me.". your failure to use common sense is not my problem. Stealing is still a crime, and if it is my stuff it might just be punishable by death if you aren't careful.

What? you owe a bookie a bunch of money? maybe you should not have wagered your entire paycheck on a horse that has never been able to finish a race. there is a reason why the odds were so long.

What? you can't hold a job because you couldn't be bothered to go to school and make something of yourself? you DO realize that school is free to you (I'm already on the hook paying for it whether you bother to try to learn anything or not.) don't you? If you still can't be bothered to try to help yourself to the opportunities open to you, too freaking bad, still not my problem.

Stupidity is almost always punishable by death in this cold cruel world. This is a GOOD thing! It weeds out those too stupid to pass on their genes to the next generation. We coddle these people at the risk of destroying humanity as a species.

Think of it as evolution in action.

Rorschach....... Wow, Im speechless. I feel sorry for you.

Thank You -A-, you are indeed a primary datum!

-A-, you touch on a point I feel very strongly about that so very many people give short shrift to. It is about our duty to society. We all owe human society a great deal. Every member of society owes every other member some allegiance. Think of society as a tribe that we all are members of. Criminals, by their actions, are NOT members of society by their own choice. They have chosen to be the barbarians, outcasts, and they are not merely at the gate, they walk among us and pretend to be members of society as well. Therefore we all, EVERY ONE OF US, must be on the look out for the impersonators. If someone is being attacked by one of these non-members it is the DUTY of EVERY member of society to stop the attack and punish the aggressor. It is not the duty of bystanders to "not get involved" or simply call 911 and then walk away. It is your duty to ACT, RIGHT THEN AND THERE. It is the abdication of this duty by 99% of society that has emboldened the non-members to step up the frequency as well as the amplitude of the attacks on society. Just imagine how safe society would be if every mugging or rape was met by overwhelming force by every single bystander.

If the mugger or rapist survived the beating/shooting from the bystanders, he or she would find themselves locked in prison for a very long time. And prison in my utopia would not involve conjugal visits, cable TV, air conditioning, or the ability to sit on your arse 20 hours a day and masturbate if you so choose. It would involve painful, dangerous, manual labor for years on end. Not that WWII Nazi Germany was a shining star of human society by any stretch of the imagination, quite the opposite, but the motto over the gates of Auschwitz actually did have a very small nugget of truth to it, even if it had absolutely no connection to what was actually happening inside the fence. "Arbeit macht frei" is a valid statement that the Nazi's forever tainted by their use.

How many criminals would chose to be criminals if that was a probable outcome of their crimes?

Humans are social creatures, it is in our nature. Criminals are by their nature anti-social because they violate the laws that protect and define society. Ergo, criminals are not human and are not deserving of human rights. Of course everything needs to be proportional too. a 6 year old kid that steals a candy bar from a convenience store should not get the same punishment as a career armed robber, but there needs to be a clear path that is revealed to the kid that if this behavior continues, eventually that is where he or she will end up. Maybe make the kid work for a week without pay cleaning the store to show him the value of work vs 20 years at hard labor in a uranium or coal mine for the career robber.

Well said.

Thank you Rose.

Another point I'd like to make concerns what to do with people sentenced to death. In years gone by, the death penalty was painful, cruel, public, and very very scary. you could expect to die a very agonizing death while much of the townspeople had a picnic and watched, or perhaps even threw manure or rotten eggs or vegetables at you. You were embarrassed, scared, and eventually screaming in agony before death finally came to give you solace. NOBODY wanted to be that guy. Over the years, the death penalty has become much less cruel, painful and public.

These days, there are lawsuits by murderers who expressed not an iota of remorse or pity for their victims claiming that being strapped to a gurney in a small room with a window into a small viewing gallery and being euthanized by large doses of barbituates, followed by paralytics and finally an overdose of potassium chloride, is somehow cruel and inhumane. I would argue that it is entirely TOO humane. there is very little pain, embarrassment, or public ridicule involved. You simply take a very long nap and never wake up. Gee, that really strikes me as cruel... Not!

The current method serves no one. It does not serve as an adequate deterrent because it is not really all that terribly objectionable of a way to die. And nobody sees it anyway, so there is no lesson taught to younger would-be criminals.

I say bring back evisceration in the public square at high noon.

Just saying.

So we should make it painless because the guy we are offing might not be the right guy?

It's as good a reason as any. We seem to be digressing from the topic a little

I think a more pertinent factor is the cost.

I am morally opposed to the death penalty but it has long struck me that it would generally be cheaper for the US to institute say 40 yr sentence without parole for those crimes that currently carry a death sentence. The reason there are so many appeals of capital cases is the finality of sentence. There would be far fewer appeals, pro bono lawyers working to overturn sentences if the penalty was a long prison term. The number for Florida of $24m per execution seems lunacy in an era of cost cutting although I must admit I have no idea what it costs to keep people in jail (but at $1000 per night $24m would pay for 65 yrs).

Well thats more then I was saying.

All Im stating is that the value of a life, a thieve, a kid in the wrong place, an electrician is more important then ..... as the gentilman stated...

"maked the area deadly for those unauthorized to be there".

Thats all, sometimes all people say is what they are saying, you shouldn throw philosphy into something that doesn't need it.

I would willingly give up my car to a carjacker then to run the person down and kill them. Everyone has a mother, father, brother , sister, son, daughter, etc.

Can't agree with that assessment. I would give up my car if it meant I didn't get killed, but if I had the opportunity to do the carjacker harm to prevent him taking my car, then I probably would (can't truly say unless I've been in the situation).

There is a reason that the term for criminals was "outlaws" - they were (are) outside the law by virtue of their own actions. If they choose not to follow the norms of society, why should they expect to get any protection from that society?

There are extenuating circumstances - starvation and the stealing of food being one of them - however, in most cases in rich "western" societies, these don't apply.

As to whose life is "more important", I think given the choice of a law-abiding citizen and a thief, I'd choose the law-abiding citizen, simply from the standpoint of "for the greater good".

Unfortunately Rose, more often than not, they'll still kill you even after you give them what they want, thereby increasing the crime to murder. The reason? Generally because you saw their face and can identify them to police, or they are just crazy and like killing. Criminal minds do not work right. They do not feel remorse for their actions nor do they think more than a few minutes ahead more often than not. immediate gratification is paramount. They are predators and you look like sheep to them. Don't be a sheep, be a wolf in sheep's clothing. Capitulating in the HOPE that they will allow you to live is a pretty shaky proposition.You are far more likely to survive the encounter if you fight them with any and everything you have available to you. your own fingernails can gouge out eyes. Keys in between your knuckles do a pretty good job of simulating a spiked set of brass knuckles.

Yup - I wasn't going on hope there! It would have to be obvious that I'd get away.

I've often walked home with my keys in just that position. Being short, I'd avoid trying to hit a man's gonads* and go for a throat or chin shot - I think the adrenaline would allow me enough power to force the head back and damage the cord. A direct shot from below with power from legs might just do it.

I was told the best way to deal with trouble is to avoid it in the first place, but it's always good to have a backup plan . As a child walking our dogs, on several occasions I unleashed the dogs (retrievers) and swung the chain and leather leads as I walked, to deter dodgy men. Giving the impression you're going to fight can be enough to deter in some cases. Chances are, those poor men were not dangerous at all, but how do you tell?

*At least for the first shot! And I wouldn't try kneeing - I'm too short for that to work. It would have to be a fist shot.

Good, because I really don't care to hear it. And I do not feel sorry for you, you'll get what you deserve by coddling criminals one way or another. Criminals are criminals and they will eventually bite the hand that feeds them. A conservative is a liberal that has been mugged, you apparently haven't been mugged yet. You will be eventually.

I have been mugged, literaly and stolen from through business. But this has nothing to do with the original statment. That the theft of some copper is more valuable then a human life, a criminal or otherwise.

Don't accuse/state things about me that noone mentioned.

Answers the question noone asked doesn't do anyone any good. So please don't judge me. :(

Kwoznia, if you do not wish to be judged, I would suggest you should not start your conversation by judging someone, and then compounding the error by judging someone else. Judging people has been the entire extent of your contribution to the thread so far.

Yes everyone has a mother, and in many cases that mother needs a good slap up side the head for raising a criminal.

When the theft of the copper causes the shut down of large portions of a transport network or the removal of power from a hospital, then which is more important?

We're not talking about someone stealing a bit of copper from a building site or even a domestic house; we're talking about large quantities of copper being stolen from public amenities.

However, I think the principles apply and anyone stealing should be punished severely - not necessarily by imprisonment, I think appropriate and well controlled "community service" would work - scrubbing graffiti, cleaning streets, litter picking, cleaning public toilets, repairing damage to public parks / buildings etc would be educational and of benefit to society. However, there has to be proper supervision and they must work hard throughout the day (with appropriate meal breaks). The image of community service, at least in the UK, is that it is a soft option.

Have you ever had the joy of reinstalling & paying for the same wire run a couple of days in a row?

so some dumbass tweaker can have a hit

if someone gets fried stealing copper [or aluminum], it's just means someone has failed a very basic IQ test.

Don't expect to hear a bunch of remorse around these [or many other] parts

Overpopulation and the consequences, testify to the fact that there must not be as much value to human life as some would claim.

Without self control there is chaos.

I respect life, and with it, respect for other peoples property.

The question was : How Do You Stop Copper Thieves?

I just thought this would be the best answer.

If the society of copper thieves hear about there colleague's being fried by trying to carry out their trade maybe they would disband and problem would be solved or change the metal problem solved.

Nope

I can tell you that the threat of possible electrocution, isn't much of a deterrent. The best solution is to control the scrap yards, by requiring more stringent record keeping. In Fresno county this has reduced the amount of cooper & aluminum [irrigation pipe] being stolen

Good idea about controlling the buyers (ie scrap yards), though it would be very difficult to police (?). Another problem is that once melted down, metals become anonymous. It's though that most of the Brinks Mat gold re-entered the market after a bit of reshaping. Exactly how it was fenced onto the market will probably never be discovered. If the culprits can't be found for such a scarce and expensive metal, there seems little hope of doing so in the case of copper etc. A two pronged approach is needed - clamping down on places like scrap yards, and deterrence, with emphasis on the latter since it's more likely to get results. That then leads to the issue of deterrence by penalty if caught, or deterrence by making it physically difficult to steal. Again, both aspects need addressing.

Perhaps repeat offenders should have a hand amputated. A bit barbaric, and also leaves the amputee in a position where crime becomes one of the few options available to find income. Glad I'm not in a position of having to decide such things - had I the interest, I'd have become a philosopher, lawyer, or some such.

There must be plenty of folk on CR4 who have daily responsibility for construction sites and similar. It would be interesting to hear of any specific initiatives they have devised to deter theft. Foot patrols, guard dogs, CCTV, are fairly normal, but maybe somebody out there has innovative solutions they've applied ? There's a construction project going on near to where I live, and the security seems absurdly lax. CCTV that clearly isn't hooked up, a solitary night guard (who's rarely seen). It wouldn't take a genius to drive of with a load of plant and materials. For some years (in Kent) it was popular among criminals to steal a forklift, then proceed to tear out the ATM (hole-in-the-wall) cash dispenser at a bank.

I was talking to a PG&E [local utility] worker after he had turned on the service we had installed.

He suddenly stopped & sniffed

Quickly ended the conversation

Told us he smelled insulation being burned off wire

& was going to check it out

/

the more stringent record keeping I was referring to was a more comprehensive paper trail for copper. the police would examine the records after a report of sizable theft

the penalties on both sides of the transaction were increased...