Electric Vehicles

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Okay I am not an engineer. But, why are people inthe field obsessed with battery power and not an APU. A generator can be run by natural gas or propane, both green and easy on engine parts. Also it is given that gearing is extremely inefficient so lets get rid of driveshafts and differentials. I've seen a website of a dutch company that changes the rotor to a stator and stator to rotor of a generator. This makes it a traction-motor, without gears. Even a traction motor with gearing, ie Diesel Locomotive is extremely efficient. Batteries are cumbersome, expensive and in themselves hazardous. I don't think I want to be in front of them in a head-on collision.

I personally feel that the engineer types should start thinking of going another direction than pluging a vehicle into a wall socket. An APU (generator) is less weight, less of a hazard (most battery research is being done with heavy metals, they are dangerous) and easier to accomodate. I'd really like to see people with the training and know how be more innovative than having to find a plug-in. and wait around to charge up. Weird in my book. I don't have the skills needed to evaluate how energy is needed. But, I know that waiting around to charge a battery makes no sense at all.

Even if traction motors are not used an APU for electricity makes much more sense than hazardous materials. In addition a generator should be much more fuel efficient.

The new Chevy volt is an extended range electrical vehicle or as you suggest an electric car with an APU. I happen to like the idea myself although the hybrids make a lot of sense too, it depends on the trade-offs you're willing to make. The trade-offs aren't all technical either so don't blame the engineers. Sure heavy metals are dangerous but not in the acute sense like driving around with 10-20 gallons of a highly flammable and explosive chemical (aka. gasoline, natural gas, propane) in your car.

Irving

Google e-Traction this will give you an idea of what I am thinking about. Eliminate gearing and not rely on a grid or the public construction of infrastructure. It's sort of like a magnetic traction motor. As you can see it is already in use in the Netherlands.

The company though appears to be somewhat protective of the technology. If somebody can tell me the reason this is the the wrong direction let me know because I have become somewhat obsessive about this.

The principles of such vehicles are not difficult to understand.

In a standard vehicle, the power is provided directly from the engine as it is needed, so it is only under full acceleration when the maximum power is used. The rest of the time, the engine gives out substantially less power, but the fuel consumption is not much less. The size of engine used must be able to give the required acceleration for the weight of vehicle.

By using electric motors to drive the wheels directly and batteries to buffer power demand, losses can be minimised and the size of engine reduced. The engine can also be run at its optimum speed for power, noise, reliability.........

A similar system has been used by UPS in the States, and some refuse wagons have a hydraulic system which provides similar economies.

I think I understand (somewhat) now, ie batteries as a power buffer. Incidentally, my curiosity led me to the Volvo DRIVe vehicle and it is exactly what I was thinking about. No gearing and either ethanol or small diesel generator to charge and power a motor at each wheel.

I figured someone from my grandfathers homeland would give a good answer.

In addition to Tesla Motors, another sweet new electric (fuel cell) vehicle is the env bike (http://www.envbike.com/).

It seems to be nearing production maturity, according to their web site. Looks like fun in any case.

I think the most important aspect of electric vehicles is the decoupling from fossil fuels. Both electricity and hydrogen can, and almost exclusively are, made using fossil fuels. However, both can be produced with alternative methods. The public acceptance and maturation of this type of technology can open up the viability of alternative energy sources by alleviating the requirement of making it fit for transportation. If it becomes commonplace to use electricity for transportation, production methods become the only concern, and end use of fossil fuels is gone. The end use issue is storage, which seems to be narrowed down to batteries and hydrogen.

...and super-high-speed flywheels.

No-one is looking at the slot-car as a concept for development. Did anyone see Sylvester Stallone and Sandra Bullock in "Demolition Man"?

A negative aspect is the gyroscopic torque generated by flywheels in rotary movements of their axis

Actually I had been thinking of the Slot Car in conjunction to Grid Theory, which I withdrew. I did remember spending all those quarters at the Hobby Shop Slot Car Track. I had a Viper.

For the Slot Car Grid Transport system to work, we end up with the Cable Car setup to overcome water and dirt problems which are managed by Subways with The Third Rail.

A car must be a car that will run as far as cars are supposed to and we are used to.

Grid Theory is in conflict with Off Grid Theory.

The motor for a car is the determining factor.

What is the best Electric Motor for a Car that will do what the cars

of the internal combustion engine will do?

The internal combustion engine will facilitate a non stop cross country drive.

On the slot car interstate this would be possible if the slots were not in the ground all the way.

The engineering model for practically powered cars that are on grid and off grid do exist in the mature transportation infrastructure of NYC, though upgrades of engines and corridor infrastructures are recommended.

ic engines have ruled the propulssion technology in auto industry for a century , fuel prices are jumping as though no gravity is effecting them let alone the environment conservers.alternate power source started popping up , flywheels , hydrogen , air compressors ,other chemical fuels , fuel cell ,electric , but electric remained favorite of masses due there availablity, alternate modes of generating electricity , simple principle of opperation & control , maturation of electric technology & ease of coupling with other mode of power generation technology like hybrid technology,

each technology will stay and mature but each technology will have different specifications , spaecifications for electric vehicles will too be different in conjunction with ic engines if wide commercilisation of such technology is to be achieved

1) power to weight ratio(battery weight perticularly) depending upon chemistry used in battery

2)charging of battery watt/hr , if supper caps are used in parllel there parameters depending upon manifacturers specification

3)vehicle range that too depends on driving parrameters range in miles or kilometers is not accurate terminolgy with respect too battery charge , how about power to wheels per hr (like batteries spcification) per velocity .head lights , other electricals can be manupulated with regenerative braking , air conditioning forget it!

3)modular design so as advance technologies come in batteries just plck and rplace like computers

4)motors should be well specified is the vehicle driven by multiple motor or single large one , if multiple motors(wheeled) combine torque to axle with lower rpm to full rpm range ,if a large single motor is used than motors bhp at its axle is to be specified

5)for single motor transmission may be needed with its own specification can be same as ic engine.

6)regenerated braking systems specification will add to total efficiency.

7) recharging mode should be modular respected to countries specification

8)adding reserve(hidden) power supply is added advantage,here range can be specified in miles kilometers how about yards feet

9)max speed , pick up , performance ! it is bussiness

If such technology is to be widely accepted specification should be easy to understand , battery replacement period , cost of replacement should be calculated with respect to time instead of distance to fuel consumed per time instead of distances

http://www.envbike.com/

this link has previously been given in this string - they have the fuel cells - they refer to as core - and they also have the fuel cell powered motor bikes.

Good Luck.

Hi, Steve.

I'm not an engineer but like to follow these kinds of discussions. I find the thought of electric vehicles with small, on board diesel generators appealing. What I don't know is whether the efficiencies cancel themselves out? By that I mean, is it just as efficient to run a vehicle directly off diesel than to generate electricity from a diesel and spin electric motors?

Any links you can provide would be appreciated (at least from my point of view).

Thanks.

The generators were only mentioned to only for long trips due to the 40 mile limit on the batteries only vehicle.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/evcalc.html

http://www.electroauto.com/

http://www.feelgoodcars.com/

http://www.ocean-server.com/overview.html

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products.htm

The advantages I see are:

1. The small generator builds up electrical storage which is available when needed. Yet electric cars are faster ,off the line, than gasoline cars.

2. You can plug it in, and only need the generator for long trips. Long trips are the exception for most people.

3. You can have some solar panels at home to charge it, if desired. You can also incorporate solar cells into the design. It could charge while you are at your work or other destination. It could also do this with the small generator.

4. You can charge it at night and get a discount on electricity. You can help the grid by selling electricity back to the grid when it is needed during hot days.

5. Electricity does not depend on foreign oil. It can be produced from many fuel sources that are abundant and domestic.

6. Electric cars are built with modern techniques, and are lighter yet safer. I just read that the original Model T weighed about 450 pounds. That sounds wrong to me, maybe someone correct that or substantiate it. Also some nice cars of that era were electric.

It is true that small modern diesel engines are a great option. I am sure they will succeed also. The problem is that the car companies are primarily interested in selling powerful sexy cars. A lot of people get their self esteem from driving powerful, expensive cars. Some are now 450 horsepower. The Tesla electric car is as fast as most of them. What we need is lighter vehicles with advanced transmissions, and just enough power to do the job efficiently. Presently about one percent of the power propels the passenger to their destination. The rest propels the vehicle, and pollutes the environment. It also worsens our dependence on foreign oil, thus weakening our dollar.

I would like to see people hold on to their present vehicles until they can buy a new generation of advanced, high MPG vehicles that meet their needs. The present fleet is good for twenty years. Some of them are suitable for retrofitting to other fuels or batteries also.

For links, I would recommend the ones previously mentioned. But just watch the news, and do searches on electric vehicles, green vehicles, etc.

My favorite is autobloggreen.com . Lots of links will be found, leading to a huge amount of information.

> Imagine for a moment an electric motor for that puppy with

> the mechanical advantages of the famous " Wankel Rotary Engine "

Yes, that is yet to be invented, but I am on the job - "The triple polar 4 Phase Switched Reluctance Machine with a Bedini Circuit powering a regenerative recovery".

To make this cool car really work, we need to think outside the box and find a new way to power this puppy.

I was wondering if a rather large Bedini generator could be used to power a house? Using a multi car battery pack and the Bedini generator running on one or two of the batteries while charging and using 6 or 7 of the other batteries. When the batteries running the motor run down they would be electronically rotated into the working batteries that are also being charged constantlly. And two of the charged batteries would then take over the running the Bedini charger. I'm just guessing at the amount of batteries required to use for running the motor and running the household current. It seems this system would work until the batteries were used up. Could this set-up be made to be practical? Don

That would not be a bad idea to try and see if that works.

Many folks have claimed success in smaller configurations, but the real proof is when someone shows a closed loop like the one you have suggested.

Coming about January - 100 mpg 400 HP Hybrid system -

still working on the Fuel system - see posts elsewhere -

Your Bedini circuit idea is Great - I have been wondering where the electric guys were on that - -

Do you have a demo circuit working - 2 sets of batteries or 3 ??

Hybrid systems answer almost all the issues.

Air is my choice - for weight - Using Carman's algorithms almost straight from the patent.

He sure got cheated by the DOE - now they are paying university kids to re-create is work - and do not want to hear about it.

When you get your Bedini working, let me know - I have a friend building an electric truck and He would love to have that addition.

Thanks

Keep on -

Testing - Testing - Testing

rcb

I myself do not have a working circuit. I wish I know how to build one as I am not very handy with electric circuits. I am a computer software-hardware guy.

But there are several working circuits demonstrated and published, both on youtube and several other places - ex: overunity.com

Hope you can build one that everyone can see and learn from.

An outstanding electric vehicle can be found at: www.aptera.com

There is a video showing the vehicle running around the streets. This is the sleekest vehicle I've ever seen that may actually become a production vehicle available to the public. Unfortunately I think it will only be available in California - at least initially. They say they will eventually make a hybrid version so you are not limited in how far you can go on batteries.

That looks like a nice vehicle and has an incredible mileage 200+ Miles per Gallon of Gas.

Dont know if these numbers are real though, but hope that they are.

Does anyone know the price of this trike?

The price is on the website under FAQ (frequently asked questions):

http://www.aptera.com/ask.php

Scroll down to "general"

Looks like $26K-30K.

That website has lots of info. Look at all links.

the aptera is cool ooking they say they have deposits for 4000 to be sold. is detroit listening or is the new sound tube in the mustang got their ears all worn out!

I need 70 miles round trip at 70 mph for a totally electric car to be feasible. I don't care if it's as slow as my mothers 79 diesel rabbit.

I need 70 miles round trip at 70 mph for a totally electric car to be feasible. I don't care if it's as slow as my mothers 79 diesel rabbit.

You need checkout commuter version was $18k but the sport pkg gives zero to sixty in 4 sec, 130 mph top end and 12 second 1/4 mile is zesty!

AAAHhhh... Too bad Ididn't preserved one of those TR-6 Triumph back on time. With their 6 in-line Cil. engines you would be able to rev those puppys on first gear eternally and it was a long distance before you decided to engage 2nd. gear to speed up even more, Unbelievables cars back then, shame on me.... I do still have in memory those puppys roaring down the road, awesomes Ruuummmnnnhhh... Beautiful cars those ones and also their competition the famously known MG's those was also incredibles smalls cars as well. Ohhh Brotherss... I have to planning one of these days a trip to one of those antiques cars shows as a refreshment for the mind, I believe.

Also not to forgot the oldies RX's from Mazda, Men those really mean power too, Absolutly...

Ahhh what can I do? At least I had my chance and let it went bye bye, Kicking myself out. Did I did thaaaaattt? Ok Buddies my fault I admmitted...RRRRhhhh..

Back to the Future Now,

MC

the ole tango, yeah I've been going to that site for a few years now. I think with the tube chassis it's a great idea, but they'll need to switch from optmia batteries to get rid of a big load of the weight.

"That can easily be met with even a lead acid battery"

40 miles on a single charge. Really? I dare you to try it.

Pickup trucks with a bed full of batteries don't count, you can't tow a trailer full of batteries, and no golf carts.

To Anonymous Hero: The General Motors EV-1 electric car had a range of 55-95 miles, depending on driving style, on a single charge. That was using Lead-Acid batteries and that was in 1997! I drove one once - it went like a rocket. GM also experimented with a series-hybrid version using a Wlliams Gas Turbine as back-up power plant. The fools did not see it through. Now we are waiting for the Volt series-hybrid to appear in 2010, if GM survive. ~12 years lost!

Its too bad we stopped moving forward with electric cars... I mean for Pete's sake, we've had functioning electric cars sense the 1920's but we put all our efforts into ICE technology while electric sat gathering dust. Imagine where we would be today if we wouldn't have abandoned electric from the beginning. I guess its time to play 90 years worth of catch up.

Electric cars would be more popular if a person could buy one for a $15,000 - $20,000 that had a range of a least 50 miles. A person could use the electric as a second car with an gas powered car for longer trips. You could use the electric 5 days a week for commuting to work and shopping trips. Or you could use the electric for everything near and rent a gas car for trips. That way you wouldn't need insurance or have the cost of maintenance on the gas car. The Csiro electric car is an interesting attempt at making electrics more attractive. It uses what they call an Ultrabattery which is a lead acid battery used conjuntion with a capacitor to increase range and longevity. Here is their site. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/01/csiro-ultrabatt.html It sounds awfully good. I wonder what the downsides are to this combination? Don

Good point. I don't think that short range pure battery vehicles well be successful over that price range. I would hope that the Tata Nano wil be able to come in under $10,000. It is from India. They are selling the conventional car for $2,000. It doesn't meet our safety specs, but the Euro version will. The conventional version is expected to be about $10,000. BYD (Build Your Dream) from China will probably have the cheapest hybrid. It will be a normal looking sedan. They have a subcompact and a compact coming. Both will be self charging, if needed, like the Volt. They will need a marketing partner.

If anyone is interested in seeing these vehicles or want to make contact with this compnay for a possible dealership, please contact them directly.

-Seshu Kanuri, Blog Admin

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: longwise <sales@longwise.com>
DateSun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:21 AM
Subject: meet you for cooperation

hide details 10:21 AM (1 hour ago) Reply

Dear MR. Seshu Kanuri,

Happy New Year. How are you?

We are a professional and earliest manufactuer of electric vehicles in China, including electric cars and electric trucks. My colleague Kamy ever contact you . I know you are a professional company for electric vehicles. Now I and our General Manager will go to U.S.A Los Angles. We will stay in Los Angles from Jan. 9th to 18th Jan. If possible, I'd like to meet you to show you our electric vehicles and discuss our cooperation. pls inform me your exact address, your mobile phone. and which day we can meet . thank you.

I am waiting for your earlier reply.

Thanks and Kind Regards,
emma


Shanghai Longwise Technology Co.,Ltd.
Add: Rm1901,Building 7#,No.1288 Dalian Rd.
Shanghai.China
www.boiq.com
Factory address:
ShangPu Road,Hardware Science&Technology
Industrial Zone ,Yongkang City,
Zhejiang Province. China
Tel: 0086-21-51613058 , 51613059
Fax:0086-21-51613057
Mobile: 13564495888
Email:sales@longwise.com
MSN:emmalee8899@hotmail.com
skype:emma88

The Chinese appear to have solved the problem with the obvious answer. A small 1 liter engine hybrid by BYD. it is called the BYDF3DM. It is to be sold in the USA. Oregon is trying to expedite it's sale there. It will have a range of 70 miles on the battery pack. The price might be as low as $14,000 which would probably be about half the price of the future Volt by GM. I am sure the dealers will pad the price though. Autobloggreen.com has a nice article about it. The battery technology is based on iron, which they claim is better than lithium. It will be interesting to see how their product will compare to that of GM. BYD is a large battery maker also. This sounds too good to be true. What do you think?

See the front page article about BYD in the Wall Street Journal. BYD is marketing a mid size hybrid for about $22,000. They will probably license their technology. BYD has 10,000 technicians and engineers. Warren Buffet just bought in. Too bad GM lost all this time since killing their own electric car. BYD started out making laptop batteries, and moved on. It is a large battery maker and uses iron in its lithium ion batteries. They are purportedly safer and more efficient. Anyone know about them? BYD is apparently the state of the art, at least for practical purposes. They will be helping keep oil prices low by decreasing China's, and all gasoline purchases.

You know, when the Military wants a high performance vehicle, the create a SPECIFICATION, and then they hold a competition, where all the players in the industry can bid. Then, each entry is tested for compliance.

So, instead of all this bass ackwards guessing. Let us create a specification for what we want. Then let those who would design, design to a specific list of requirements. These can be anything from environmental to safety to economy to affordability. Say what you want! Write it down! Put it out for competitive bid! Get what you want!

We are not the military, but each and every one of us is a consumer of transportation products. This means, in order to create and represent the kind of purchasing power needed to engage the interest of the big (and small) players, we have to organize many many transportation consumers into a authoritative interest group.

This approach will work for any engineering challenge which is now in jeopardy due to economic and environmental consequences. Because these are areas of economic commodity, there exists the potential for financial corrupution. What I propose is the the creation of an Organization, sponsored by the government, but responsible only to the people, unable to be corrupted by business concerns, that will assess, quantify and qualify all the fundamental requirements for the next generation of transportation. It needs to be completely unbiased.

It's mandate would be to define and specify the requirements to be met by competitive entries, and to conduct unbiased, comparative testing of all entries, and to publish internationally the results of these entries and test results. This will then be the basis of investment for private investors, corporations and governments, in the 'solution'. The investment money will then flow to the vendor(s), to tool up, hire, build, and support that technology, and its spin-offs.

There are initiatives along these lines that are already happening. I just think that the organization needs to get bigger, and consolidate more authority, with more public interaction.

http://www.xprize.org/

http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/

I also think engineers.. not just automotive engineers, but all engineers, need to be involved. so therefore CR4 can play a fundamental role in every aspect, from creating the trustworthy Organziation, to specification and evaluation, manufacture and support.

Right now there is a lot of 'marketing' going on... (it is the only way we know) and the lines get very blurred about whose technology is the best, and whose math and science is going to work and I think most consumers get jaded by it all, and you end up picking what looks the best.. because you really don't know definitively, what the final answer is. I think that we need to cut through a lot of hype, and get some answers that people can have confidence in, that is not controversial, and that really works.

Chris

thats just what california did to start the electric ar but detroit killed it. if detriot spent all those lobby millions on research would they be dead now?

so therefore, what's it there for?

All good points, GA

Don't get too excited by the Tesla's claimed 240 mile range.

If you read the small print you find this is driving for 8 hours at a steady 30 mph. Which is just the kind of thing you would do in a sleek sports car isn't it?
And that requires not using the lights, the heater, the windscreen wipers, the radio, ...

In response to the person that asked why not make expensive electric cars first, then bring the price down as the technology matures, I would suggest that is exactly what companies such as Tesla and Lexus (hybrid 4x4) are doing. But if you buy an expensive car you expect performance and luxury (= mass) and these are areas where the electric car is not good. A minimal basic car is probably where electric gets nearest to IC power, and that leaves the cost problem.

Electric cars depend upon high gasoline prices to make them viable. The higher initial price and present battery weight make them noncompetitive unless gasoline is at a high price. I just bought a new Chevy Aveo for $9,340 with air and auto trans. I can spend at least $10,000 on fuel before meeting the cheapest hybrid price. Since they need fuel too, they might have to take 15 to 20 years to beat me out on overall cost . The Tata Nano Euro version could sell for about that here in the USA and Europe. It is a much smaller car, but gets mileage comparable to hybrids. Volt type hybrids have a small quiet generator that just charges the batteries. That type of electric car may be the winners, if gasoline prices go up, and the prices are low enough. It doesn't look like the Chevy Volt will make sense from a personal budget point of view though. The Chinese "Volt" is made by BYD and will sell in China for about half the Volt projected price. Indians are now buying the conventionally powered Tata Nano base model for $2,000. Several companies are trying to compete for the very low price points. It all depends on if you want basic economical transportation, or luxurious driving with more safety features and more room. It will be interesting to watch the evolution of the auto industry worldwide.