The Y Files

One reason I could see for not making new refineries is that we have been crazy all this time to keep increasing demand. So, the oil companies were not crazy enough to build new refineries and then get stuck with the bill when folks finally come to their senses. Hope this doesn't seem too ranty.

It's not ranty at all, electrone. Thanks for commenting. Personally, I'm skeptical of the argument that environmental regulations make it too difficult to build new refineries. It's a matter of dollars and sense. Like any commodity, gasoline is subject to dramatic fluctuations in price. If you're a refinery executive considering a multi-billion investment, you have to wonder if gas prices will fall again like they did after the "oil shocks" of the 1970s were over. To me, it's unlikely that they will; however, I'm not the guy who would have to face an angry board of directors about a huge investment that can't pay for itself.

The thing is that hurricane Katrina wiped out several refineries and BP helped when they had their fire and explosion. We Brits know a thing or two about sloth. If we can hobble the competition we'll go go real slow.

Moose;The oil companies post billions of profit per quarter.In my considered opinion we should all refuse to purchase new vehicles till the vehicle manufacturers start produceing electrics at a reasonable price. Then the oil companies can fall into line with honest pricing or go belly up.Electric vehicles are mission intensive. They make perfect sence for around town for short trips (30 miles) anything longer than that, there are rental companies only to happy to rent a car for a day trip of longer distance. Seeing as how the major players won't develop an electric car or truck,I am building my own. I will keep my gas guzzeler till I can figure out another alternative. There is no reason to wait on the big boys to do something for us little people,because it aint gonna happen. Some how we have to find a way to get into their pockets. They have been in ours long enough.

Best of luck in your quest to build an EV, hilltopper. I admire your willingness to take on this project. I hope you'll keep us posted on your progress.

Best,

Moose

That stuff about the springtime demand for gas is pure bunk! Are we to believe that the sum of all grandma's extra trips to the mall really helped to raise the price of gas? As for the summer driving season, the media is an echo chamber. How many people really throw the family in the station wagon and drive cross the country to Yellowstone Park?

prices are up, wages are down, taxes are up, fees are up, interest is up, new laws for adjustable rates will make companies more money. Laws for illegal immigrants to get health care and welfare while eating and living on our bill, tax free I may add.

"I'm sorry but you make too much money" sir, "but Everything I bring in goes out, why can't I get any help?"

Now back to the reply, Who has the money for vacation? The farthest I will be going this summer is to take my wife to St. Louis, I think 186 miles from where I live. That's only because we couldn't afford to do anything the last 3 years, so we are going to go this year and probably not for another 4 years after this.

Hi there Heart cooks brain. Here in the UK we pay nearly $2 per liter for any kind of fuel. The reasons being is that our government has taxed it to the hilt. we pay the government nearly 7/8ths of the costs per liter to us. Yes, we are very pissed off. Spencer.

"Here in the UK we pay nearly $2 per liter for any kind of fuel."

But you do have higher mpg vehicles ... is that correct? Here in the "technically advanced" USA, the auto industry (Detroit) is suing to prevent the implementation of legislation in several states requiring lower emissions and higher mpg [about 44mpg(US) for cars and high 20s for "light trucks"]. The current typical Detroit machine has CO₂ emissions between 240 and 500 g/km and an average fuel economy of about 23 mpg(US) [27 mpg(Imperial)].

I would love to get hold of one or more of those Step IV Honda Accord or Civic diesels. Maybe a 2007 FR-V?

What is your opinion of the Ford products like the Mondeo or the Tourneo diesels?

It is my understanding that all of these machines are suppose to get better than 45 mpg(imperial) [38 mpg(US)] combined cycle. Are the VCA values reasonably representative of "real life" experience?
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search

In the same vein, here in OZ fuel is deare on weekends (just happens to be a crisis somewhere in the world every Thursday arvo till Sunday night). It also costs more on the day the pensioners get paid (once a fortnight. No collusion or price fixing of course. There have been several enquiries into petrol pricing, but no action.

Not long ago the oil companies were importing Toluoene for paint thinner by the shipload tax free and then mixing it into Unleaded Petrol, charging the full taxed price and of course pocketing the difference. The Govt solution, tax paint thinner.

A good friend who happens to be an old Oil patch Exec. told me that after Katrina and Friends raked the off shore rigs some of his old friends( the oil execs.) found a good excuse to do some of their deferred maintenance and have the public pay for it by using the hurricanes as the reason for the increase in price. Now you have to admit the news papers were more than willing to take everything as gospel and we all know that big oil would not stretch the truth just to make a profit.

But getting back to the question as to why there has not been any new refineries built in the last 30 years -when was the last time a wild catter like Tommy Thompson came out of nowhere to build an empire that is now Valero. Has anybody become alarmed that Texaco is now mainly owned by the Saudis.

Why did Shale Oil die off so suddenly?

Is our Government letting our power sectors die off or are they the ones killing them off with inaction and negative regulation?

Having worked in the oil & gas industry for nearly 30 years, I see some problems with the 3 Little Pigs story. During springtime, refineries are changing their mix of products from heating oil to gasoline, which means downtime. By the way, we are building a new refinery right now! Actually, it's not new, but it's been out of service for many years. It's located in Wickett, Texas. It's capacity won't be much, but, hey, it's a start. Public Citizen is certainly a biased organization with a political agenda. It is important to note that their statements are opinions, not necessarily facts. "According to Public Citizen, a congressional investigation even uncovered a campaign by Big Oil to drive the remaining independent refineries out of business." If this were indeed true, it would be on the the front page of the New York Times. I've worked in exploration and production, as well as in refineries and gas pipeline stations. Although I'm not an expert in refinery operations by any means, I have been in a number of them and I'm familiar with some of the problems. Does anybody think that $60/bbl oil has any bearing on the price of gasoline? I say we stick to engineering problems and drop the political agenda stuff!

I'm an engineer with many years with Getty, Texaco, Sun, et al - in the refineries. Let's see $60 a barrel hurts, but margins are what matters - and when refined product is selling at the pump for 2+ times the crude price without taxes added, and the foreign cheap stuff portside in NYC stopped for fear of terrorism or whatever - happy days are here again.

What do I drive? It's a Ford Contour, it runs on Natural Gas. Which burns clean, keeps the oil like new and costs the equivalent of about 50 to 60 cents on the dollar to run vs. gasoline - just going down the road cost - ignoring the fact my motor will last virtually forever on the Natural Gas.

The question you have to ask yourself is why can I go to Austrailia, SouthEast Asia and other parts of the world and find it ranges all the way from from everybody using natural gas to nearly no-one using it as here in the U.S.

Honda makes a Natural gas vehicle - and they recognised a problem here in the U.S. is there isn't a good enough infrastructure for refueling Natural Gas vehicles - so they have a handy dandy little device they'll very reasonably rent a car buyer which will refuel the car overnight - filling up from the houshold natural gas supply. Are they clever or what! Cheaper still than I get it!

Check it out!! Clean burning, currently available, renewable, available as government/corporate surplus, less expensive to run.

RE: Using Natural Gas as a motor fuel

The industry leaders of the natural gas industry have deceived the American public. Before deregulation the natural gas industry could only make more money by selling more natural gas. Their slogan was that there was more than enough natural gas for any future expansion of it's use. After deregulation, now there is a shortage of natural gas so the price must be increased. One of these is a lie as they are mutually exclusive. Therefore depending on suppliers of any type fossil fuels for transportation will soon die on the vine as real supplies diminish over the next few decades.

What's the answer?

Start now to increase base load electrical generation capacity using nuclear and renewable energy sources to exceed projected peak loads. Then use the excess base electrical generation capacity to produce Hydrogen during off peak periods. Develop a distribution system for the Hydrogen and the automotive manufacturers will produce vehicles to run on it. Say goodbye to big oil and hello to electric utilities.

Clever approach metzc3! Using H2 production as an offpeak use of electrical output.

I think you're right too about the NG industry. The beauty of it though, is they don't really have a strangle hold - because any significant source of rotting biomass can generate a lot of Methane. I've seen dairy farms in Wisconson powered entirely by methane produced in their own manure lagoons! Effectively Natural Gas to power pumps and electrical generation both. Very impressive big operations, and not on the pipeline!

In the short term until this country wakes up and gets serious about an approach like yours these are viable currently available alternates.

How does a completely off grid dairy farm sound? http://xldairygroup.com/

"The industry leaders of the natural gas industry have deceived the American public. Before deregulation the natural gas industry could only make more money by selling more natural gas. Their slogan was that there was more than enough natural gas for any future expansion of it's use. After deregulation, now there is a shortage of natural gas so the price must be increased. One of these is a lie as they are mutually exclusive. " Not a lie at all. Many electric utilities switched from coal to natural gas to reduce emissions, driving demand way up.

Utility deregulation is a joke in OH as it has been elsewhere. To my knowledge, the only beneficiaries of deregulation have been utilities and their shareholders. The problem, of course is that it is impossible to deregulate monopolies.

Over the past 20 years or so the majority of all new electric generating stations built have been powered by natural gas because that was the only fuel for which approval could be readily obtained. The increased use of natural gas to generate electricity contributed significantly to reduced natural gas supplies and rising prices. The irony is that electric utilities then began requesting rate increases because of the rising prices of natural gas.

We will continue to be held hostage by utilities, energy suppliers, automobile manufacturers and federal, state and local governments as long as we allow it. Ultimately, we will collectively come to our senses and realize it is stupid to be burning fossil fuels to generate electricity or power automobiles.

In that regard, it seems to me that the Chevy Volt concept may be the most practical approach to an electric/gasoline hybrid (depending on the battery life-cycle cost). From what I've seen, propulsion is 100% electric; good for about 60 miles on a full charge. For longer trips, the onboard gasoline-powered generator kicks in to charge the batteries. Theoretically, for most commuting, the onboard generator would never be needed. Overnight charging would be sufficient to achieve infinite mpg.

"Say goodbye to big oil and hello to electric utilities."

Will the utilities treat the consumer any better than the oil companies when/if they switch over to electrically powered transportation?

Good stuff, Conscia. Welcome to CR4!

Thanks, steve45. Glad to have you in on this discussion. I was hoping that some folks who've worked in the oil & gas industry would comment on this story, too.

No new refinery yes thats true and it is because of the much stricter EPA regs for new construction. More refining capacity yes. Refinery expansion is hapenning every where cheaper (read less EPA regs) to expand than build new.

You want to know why gas is high it is because the consumer is willing to pay the high prices. yeah you all whine about three bucks a gallon but I see no one slowing down.

Want cheap gas here is what you do. And the key is the entire nation has to participate. right now every one on the highways and byways are driving at least 5 to 10 miles an hour above the speed limits. All it takes is for the ENTIRE nation to drive 5 to 10 miles an hour BELOW the speed limit. GEE Waht a novel idea.

Heres is what would happen. In 30 days supply would catch up with demand, no big deal no change in status quo no chnge in prices. But here is the good part after another 30 days supply will exceed demand. A only slight drop in price will occur because we will have to fill all that empty storage that is available.

Now here is the good part after 90 days demand is lower all the storage is full GEE WHIZ the price of gas will take sudden plunge cause we got to stimulate demand somehow, costs too much to shut down production then restart. Price of gas would be back to a buck something we I don't care what OPEC charges per barrel cause we got surplusses and no demand.

Carbon footprint my behind we are a carbon based life form no carbon footprint means you dead Beaudreaux

Re: ERSSK I agree and disagree about people slowing down-in my neck of the woods(La.Texas and Colorado) I see most people slowing down a decline in highway patrol presence . But you are correct in that not all are slowing and if the general rate of slowing was 10 mph you would see a shift in fuel dynamics!!

Nothing would ever make everyone voluntarely drive 5 to 10 mph under the speed limit, let alone at the speed limit.

The ONLY way to make everyone drive at or below the speed limit is to pass a federal law that requires all domistic vehicles be fitted with speed limiters- an electronic device that can read the speed limit and directly limit the speed of the vehicle. Speed limiters would need to be incased in tamper-resistant containers and installed where they can't be easily removed and would require regular inspections to check for signs of tampering and accurate functionality. Police, ambulance and fire vehicles can be exceptions to the law.

The effect of this would be all positives:

*Increased road safety.

*Increased fuel economy.

*Reduced wear and tear on all moving parts- including the tires.

*Increased life and reliability.

*Improved law enforcement- no more high speed chases, easier to spot speeders.

I've been in favor of this for as long as I've been driving.

"I've been in favor of this for as long as I've been driving."

Not in favor of freedom then? The problem America has, and not just with gasoline, is that we as a people look to the government to control everything for us. I've seen a tagline, maybe here or another forum, that says "An elephant is a mouse built to government standards." That should give us a clue. If you want things to change, organize as a group and change it. Stop asking the government to be your mommy and daddy...

There is another way to attack the problem ... reduced consumption through higher fuel economy vehicles. Detroit is resisting that with all their might. Maybe ... under "freedom of choice" that is their right??

There is still a way to have high mpg vehicles AND lower emissions ...

If CONGRESS were pass legislation waiving for a period of 36 month (or a quantity of 300,000 unit per model meeting requirements) all import restrictions and tariffs for all vehicles that achieve higher than 44 mpg(US) combined average, CO₂ emissions below 160 g/km, meet Euro Step IV (or Step V) emissions standards, AND meet current Euro safety standards (or their equivalent).

This should have little impact on the US auto industry since they deny the existence of this market segment and have no apparent intent in addressing it within the foreseeable future. They have been down sizing for at last two years (apparently according to some grand plan) so there will be NO substantial impact on labor.

It would certainly be a win for the consumer with the introduction of these "new choices"!

Since the US consumes about 22% of the world's petroleum, do you think this shift in consumer opportunity would have an impact of the price of crude and the futures market?

A new refinery has been permitted in Arizona. It only took SEVEN YEARS! Is it any wonder nobody wants to go through the headache of the permitting process? http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/business/19103.php

I am driving 50 miles a day just to go to work, when all of my trips are through for the day I would say I drive 100 miles a day. I need to get cheaper transportation to work. That is 25 miles each way. What is the cheapest electric or alternative powered vehicle that I could buy or make with a kit that will make me a cheap commuter to my work?

I have considered motorcycles but I get off work the same time the bars close and I do not like that idea, plus there are a lot of deer on the highway. There is one fuel station in my city that sells the natural gas fuel that they put in the city buses.

I could use Natural gas or Electric, even the natural gas from my house I could use, I can run the line to fuel a car. Is there a company that sells street legal kits for an alternative fuel vehicle with an aluminum or superlite frame?

Honda can rent you a little rig that will refuel a natural gas car from your home supply. Even buying natural gas in refueling stations my cost is between 50% and 60% the cost of gasoline per mile - fuel cost only - from your home heating supply the cost should be a lot lower. The natural gas burns clean, I've seen a car with 375,000 miles on it run entirely on natural gas, with the oil changed religiously every 30,000 miles! And it was still running like it was new with never any work on the engine. Honda sells NG vehicles, too. I got my NG dual fuel Ford at a Government Surplus auction - with 73,000 miles on it for $2000 which was the highest price paid at the auction for this type car - but less than half the additional cost for getting a car fitted up for natural gas. Mine has the ability to run on NG and Gasoline - two different fuel systems which is an advantage in this area - especially since I live in center city, and have nowhere to park to refuel from the home NG supply. The Federal Government has an extensive directory of commercial refueling stations for alternative fuels which can help you determine how practical this is in your area if it doesn't work to refuel overnight from your home supply.

5/29/07 EPA updated http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byMPG.htm
to the "more realistic" mpg values (2008 methodology).

Using this database and searching for 2007 vehicles over 40 mpg average city/highway here is what you will find: Honda Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius, between 42 and 45 mpg(US) combined average!

Again, searching the database for 2007 vehicles over 30 (and less than 40) mpg average city/highway you will find: Toyota Yaris; Toyota Corolla; Honda Fit; MINI Cooper; Nissan Altima Hybrid; Toyota Camry Hybrid. And that is the list for 2007! . By the way, all of these are less than 35 mpg(US).

In fact, if you exclude the Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, and Toyota vehicles and then evaluate the remaining "19 BEST combined city/highway mpg domestic" vehicles, the average is 25.9 mpg(US) for 2007 using the 2008 methodology.

I do have to give FORD credit ... they do have the 2008 Escape/Mariner/Mazda Tribute hybrids that are rated 32 mpg(US) combined average. But, that does not take much strain off the wallet unless your current vehicle is getting 10 mpg.

Sadly, anyone looking for serious fuel economy certainly can't look to Detroit for purchase of a new High MPG Vehicles since THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY ! !

Now here is the potentially good news ... if you are in the USA ... and ... you don't mind an older car ... there are quite a number of 35 mpg or better vehicles between 1987 and about 1997 and the VW diesels up to 2005. You can search http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byMPG.htm
by mpg (up to 40 in 5 mpg increments) from 1994 to 2008 and you can search specific vehicles back 1985.

Why build it if you can buy in used ... unless it is for fun or education?

my Dad had a 1960 year model Mercedes 190d 4 speed on the column that got 40mpg

I just bought an 83 Mercedes 240 Diesel, estimated MPG is mid 30's, with a back seat bigger than any car i've ever been in except for a checker cab ;). My cost: $1500 + a clutch kit. Best part is the included waste vegetable oil fuel system.

I do see changes in the maximum power. The new Nissan Altima has similar mileage but a max peak power of 280 HP, quite a bit more than 70 HP for my 2.3l diesel, or in the 120's for the mercedes 3.0l turbo diesels of the the 80's. Of course you can't diagram the altima's fuel system on a napkin like an old diesel, but hey.

Anyways, at this point, I see no motive for a petroleum company to make a new refinery. They make money hand over fist as it is, and in 30 or 50 years, all the dino oil's gone anyway.

Something I found recently that the forum might find of interest. http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/information/how-to-use-the-data-tables.asp#petrol These vehicles are rated for CO2 emissions below 120g/km. They have some fuel economy numbers that surprised me. Don't forget that 58.8 mpg(Imperial) is approximately 49 mpg(US) ... we're talking combined average.

And here in the USA, on July 1,2007, EPA's www.fueleconomy.gov was updated to reflect the 2008 fuel economy methodology. So most vehicles on the database show mpg reduction of about 10%.