OH CR4P!

"It is in this spirit that we honor the victims of these attacks and remember the bravery shown by rescue workers on that day, from the first responders to those involved after the collapse. It's unconditional sacrifice like this which we should look to, sacrifice which gives us hope for the future."

Well put.

nice bit of propaganda. Now explain the destruction of the seven story annex. I like a fairy tale as much as the next kid

jerrys, you appear to not to know a hell of a lot of how the two towers actually came down.

No fairy tails. No conspiracies.

Read the in-depth Forensic Engineering report and you may actually learn something.....

[And no, I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you on this. Actually, I will totally ignore your entirely expected further rant. Obviously you are not a Structural Engineer, otherwise you would have gone off half-cocked the way you did.]

I agree with you. There are a few structural engineers that take jerrys' view but I find it lacks credibility.

It does annoy me that the published documents don't carry enough explanation for the lay people. Case in point; the diagram shows the steel at 800°C and the note to the effect, "not hot enough to melt steel" but it doesn't say that it loses 90% of it's strength at that temperature.

http://www.ae911truth.org/en/evidence.html

More than one hundred firefighters, police, first responders, and building maintenance personnel report hearing and experiencing scores of explosions in the twin towers, including powerful explosions in the sub-basements prior to the collapse of the towers.

Seventeen hundred architects and engineers have testified in a petition to Congress that the three World Trade Center buildings were not brought down by fire and airplanes and have demanded a real scientific investigation of the cause of the buildings' destruction.

Yet, we are left with the paradox that scientific opinion based on careful examination of the remaining evidence has been designated by the ignorant and unwashed as a "conspiracy theory," while Washington's absurd conspiracy theory stands as the truth of the event.

Text taken from: http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/07/04/can-americans-escape-the-deception/

CR4 Admin: Modified Post

Copyright Violation: Reduced copied text according to copyright law. Please seeSection 12 of the CR4 FAQ about posting copyrighted material.

You say: "Seventeen hundred architects and engineers have testified in a petition to Congress that the three World Trade Center buildings were not brought down by fire and airplanes and have demanded a real scientific investigation of the cause of the buildings' destruction."

They are hugely outnumbered by the rest of us that disagree with such nonsense, especially the structural engineers who are best positioned to know.

But you aren't one of them, right? And I doubt Moosey is either. Either of you have military experience? specifically as it applies to aviation? If you DID, you could explain why there were no alert fighters scrambled, why NORAD personnel apparently sat with their collective thumbs in their rears, why our military,supposedly one of the best in the world, was completely impotent as four (allegedly civilian) airliners went off course (with passengers telephoning family members about it) and crashing into buildings, yet there was no response from our military. While you are at it, explain why, when informed of the "attack," our illustrious leader chose to continue reading to children in a Florida classroom instead of immediately departing and doing his job. I imagine it is because the "news" was not news to him. BTW, geniuses, I saw the original footage, with a professional reporter and a professional cameraman. The reporter was on scene as the SECOND plane entered the second tower and he comments, "that looks like a military plane." And the footage does indeed portray what appears to be a military plane, painted in that typical gray color. This was a "stand-down" event, there is no other explanation for the complete lack of response (except to get Saudi Arabians out of the country). I suspect you all are just more of the paid trolls and shills who spend all day going from one propaganda story to the next with your fairy tales that never stand up to scientific scrutiny, bragging about credentials you don't have. You inevitably take the gubmint position, apologize for Obama, etc. Your methods are always the same, you start with ridicule of anyone who puts up a dissenting opinion, point to other websites as you personally have nothing, no knowledge, no expertise, engage in double-speak instead of straight talk, obfuscate with nonsense (when the truth is much simpler) and gang up on anyone who puts up a dissenting opinion.

Jerry, I served 14.5 years in the Active Duty Army and Army Reserves. At the time of my seperation fro the service my rank was Captain. I was on the Promotion List for Major (O-4). I served in the Army Rangers during my AD stint for 3.5 years and am familiar with all types of military aircraft. I jumped out of all the USAF transport types. I'm also a military brat (dad retired a full Col.). My uncle flew F-105G Wild Weasels during the Viet Nam War (3 tours). I grew up living and breathing military aircraft as a kid. My First Cousin retired a USAG Brig. General and was a fighter pilot....he commanded a Ohio ANG Fighter Wing (the 178th TFW) that was once located in Springfield OH. His last posting was a the OH ANG Adj. General......he flew F-105D, F-4D/E, F-15A/B/C/D, and lastly F-16A/B/C/D's. Then there's my kid brother: He recently retired a Lt. Col. from the New Jersey Air National Guard (The Jersey Devils, 177th TFW, based at Atlantic City IAP, NJ...they fly F-16C Fighting Falcons). He also served in the Active duty USAF. He is a fighter pilot as well, and has flown F-4D/E's, F-106A's, F-15's, and lastly the F-16A/C. He was on standby call duty with the Wing when the WTC was attacked on 9-11. Then there's my son who is currently serving in the USAF and stationed at Dyess AFB in TX. Then there is my former college roomie, USAF ROTC, who flew in the USAF and later with the NYANG, flying A-10A Warthogs and later F-16A, with the "Boys From Syracuse", the 174th TFW stationed at Hancock Field in Syracuse NY. He, like me, is a Vet of Operation Desert Shield/Storm, ie, the Persian Gulf War.

Lets just say I know my military aircraft more than most USAF pilots. I also am a IPMS-USA Master Modeler who builds nothing but 1/32 scale Military aircraft.

The reason no USAF or Air Guard fighters intercepted the hijacked airliners is because the FAA could not locate the airliners because the transponders were turned off by the terrorists. It was not NORAD's call, but the Northeast Air Defense Center (ADC) located at the former Griffiss AFB (Rome NY) that is and was responsible for scrambling fighters. Also, following the collapse of the Soviet Union there was no need to intercept Soviet bombers along the Eastern Seaboard because there weren't any Russian bombers to intercept. Hence the need not to arm our fighter interceptors, which were mainly F-15's and F-16s from the state Air National Guards. Back then, our fighters did not have their M-61 Vulcan 20mm cannons loaded with ammo nor did the aircraft carry any sort of air-to-air missiles, so even if they did find a wayward airliner, how the freaking hell do you expect a fighter pilot to do to stop the airliner? Only way to bring it down is to ram it.

And lets not forget that the US Air Forces radars aren't located primarily within the continental US but rather in northern Canada, Alaska and Greenland, all pointed towards the Artic Ocean, Bering Sea, and Mother Russia.....not pointed towards the interior of our country, so how did you expect the USAF to find these planes with an non-existant radar system? Then there was the hesitancy of the USAF Commanding Officer on Duty at the ADC. There was no set precedent for our military to shoot down an unarmed civilian airliner. Premission to do so solely rested way up the chain of command to the Commander-in-Chief, or POTUS to you and me.

YES, ALERT FIGHTERS WERE SCRAMBLED! Initially, two Mass. ANG F-15A Eagles from the 101st Tactical Fighter Wing were scrambled from Otis AFB (Cape Cod MA) and directed towards NYC. Unfortunately, they arrived too late to stop either Flight 11 and Flight 175 that crashed into the towers. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Also, 3 F-16C from the 174th FW (Syracuse NY) were scrambled right after the Mass. ANG. That morning I saw these Fighting Falcons fly right over the village I live in along Hudson River...they were on their way to NYC from Syracuse after being vectored by ADC in Rome NY......flying approximately 500 feet AGL and around Mach 1.5. I was on our back deck listening to my transponder/scanner (I knew they'd be coming) when they zoomed by. Broke a lot of windows along their flight path, especially in our area.

Same goes for the NJANG F-16C's scrambled out of Atlantic City IAP. My brother was one of those pilots.

Don't you ever dare state again that the military was impotent because you are talking trash and don't know what the FUK you're talking about.

Really, somehow I wish that my brother was a member here (he's a Chem. Eng.)....he'd set you straight in 5 words or less and tell you exactly what went down and how things played out. HE LIVED THAT HISTORY, YOU DIDN'T, & YOU ARE SECOND GUESSING OR TRYING TO REWRITE HISTORY.

End of discussion and end of this thread for me. Talking to you is like talking to some higher than thou Jesus Freak who has an answer for everything and knows everything regardless of......never mind. Setting you straight about the facts is like talking to a freaking rock.

END OF THREAD.

ps: If you knew anything airliners, then you'd know that United Airlines Flight 175 that crash into the WTC South Tower was painted gray. It could easily be mistaken for a military transport painted gray. See the attached pic! Also, do you even know what FS paint color is applied to present day USAF transports since the late 1980's up to now? I bet you $100 that you do not come back with the correct FS color.....

BTW, that FS color that I was discussing is several shades lighter than the official United Airlines gray.

I don't believe you. The two tower strikes weren't one right after the other. And the aircraft in the video I saw didn't resemble the picture you posted. NORAD's capability is a little bit better than you are attempting to portray.

No point to scrambling alert aircraft if they aren't armed. Did Jimmy Carter design our aircraft? No missiles? No machines guns? Really? That would be almost the definition of impotent. You're right, I don't believe you.

As regards your credentials, 14 years and you made it to (O-3) captain? Pretty sad. Doesn't anybody have an answer for the Pentagon? The Saudi that supposedly piloted that airliner couldn't even fly a Cessna 150. Good answers. I agree, you should drop out of the conversation. Enough with your bragging already, Walter Mitty

Of course the two airliners, American Airlines Flight 11 and United Airlines 175, didn't crash into the TWC towers right after one another. I didn't say that.

Scrambling aircraft, armed or not armed, is of little significance. Both would have ESCORTED intercepted airliners first and foremost if they could.

Actually, the scrambled F-15's and F-16s were designed and first flew before Carter became POTUS, that occurring in the early 1970's for the YF-15 Eagle, and the mid-1970's for the YF-16A Fighting Falcon.

Both are capable of carrying missiles. Both have the internally mounted M-61A1 Vulcan multi-barrel cannon (think of it as a modern Gatling gun) that shoots 20mm rounds at extremely fast rate of fire. Regardless, what's that have to do the structural integrity of the WTC towers? Nothing, so stop deflecting.

Now your really starting to insult me, and really pissing me off. Really now. FYI, I enlisted in the U.S. Army at age 18 in 1976 and went through BMT and Airborne Training at Ft. Benning GA. Following para school I went through Ranger School, followed by attending Combat Engineer School for AIT at Ft. Leonard Wood, MO. I served with the Rangers from early 1977 through mid-1980 (2/75th and 3/75th). Upon separation from Active Duty I joined the U.S. Army Reserve and served with the 464th Engineering Battalion in Schenectady NY. In 1983, after graduating BSCE, I was a Staff Sgt. (E-6) and entered into Officer Candidate School (OCS)and upon graduation was awarded a Commissioned Officer's rank of 2nd Lt. Following Commissioning, I served with a Active Duty USA unit pursuant with Army Regulations, in this case with the 2nd Battalion/75th Regiment at Ft. Stewart GA.

I was Enlisted and NCO for 7 years, and a Commissioned Officer for 7 1/2 years. That adds up to 14.5 years. I am a Vet of Grenada (Op. Urgent Fury in '83) with the Rangers, and a Vet of Op. Desert Shield/Desert Storm/Desert Saber (the "ground war"). What, you want me to drag out my DD214 from the bank security box and post on here for the world to see and know my identity, just to prove to you that I served? Fat chance.

Q: DID YOU SERVE YOUR COUNTRY? Somehow I doubt it very much by your statements so far. Don't you dare question my service, ever! Continue and I WILL file a REPORT to the forum moderators and have your sorry butt booted.

Q: What's your level of education and in what field? Are you a Licensed and Registered Professional Engineer? Somehow I don't think so......

BTW, both airliners were Boeing 767's, same as the airliner in the pic I posted. I recently saw the video footage the other night on the 11th and saw the footage and still pics of the aircraft that struck both towers.....both aircraft were definitely 767's and nothing but 767s.

Oh ,the were airline parts and bodies discovered throughout the strike zone at the Pentagon........thousands of little itty bitty parts, mainly in the location of the innermost perimeter corridor.what do you expect would happen when an airplane as large as it was strikes something at over 600 knots airspeed? Also, the largest piece of debris recovered was part of the engine turbine section found in that same corridor. Ever been inside the Pentagon Jerry? I have and I served there on a TDY for 8 months...the structure was designed and built very robustly.

What French photog? I've never heard that one before. And what is his/her name and where are the pics located online? I've seen the Pentagon security/surveillance video that shows the airliner striking the Pentagon. It is no missile, that's for sure.

I'm not bragging Jerry. I have been posting statements of fact. You haven't. In fact you're nothing but a TROLL, a newbie here, and ought to leave permanently.....

Name calling definitely shows your level of maturity....not much IMO. And don't insult my intelligence any further! You have demonstrated repeatedly in your multiple posts that you don't speak with authority here.

Enough of this thread. I will not continue to participate.

You are bragging, threatening, and you and your gang of censors started with the insults. You must be in league with lyn who can direct the worst sort of insults in any discussion on the boards and get away with it. I saw the ORIGINAL photos and videos, not the later doctored, ones. I know what I saw. The official 9/11 story has been thoroughly debunked and you and yours are nothing more than propagandists. I can question your claims all day long, you feel free to question my military service, turn about is fair play. Stop with your blustering. Fact is, you and your buds are just propagandists, and poor ones at that. You should stick to the forums where the readers are less intelligent, you might be able to pull the wool over their eyes. I got another question you can't (or won't) answer correctly, how did FEMA know to have their people and equipment there a day ahead of time (September 10th)?

And of course you know why the pentagon had a nice neat little hole drilled in it fairly close to the ground, kind of like a MISSILE. No aircraft wreckage, no bodies, no luggage, the ground leading up to the hole completely unblemished. Had aircraft wings struck and broke off, they'd be lying on the ground outside. had aircraft wings penetrated the building and disappeared inside, then there would be more than that neat little hole. You'd have to be at least as dumb as Lyn to think it was anything other than a MISSILE. Never mind the fact that a French journalist has video footage that clearly shows the missile in flight on its way to the building. I wonder why nobody talks about the Pentagon strike... but hey, you crackheads,er, crackpots believe in global warming, so why not? Add this fairy tale to your belief system.

I remember that day as if it was yesterday. The fact that I'm Canadian has no bearing on what I felt. I would have felt the same way if it happened in any other country.

What I find amazing, from an engineering aspect, is how each entire floor pancaked on to the one below. The whole building came straight down, without toppling over. The loss of life would have been far greater.

passington, you are entirely correct about the structural steel loosing 90% of its strength at that temperature. I couldn't agree more!

I also agree that most Structural Engineering reports, specifically the Forensic Engineering ones, do not address the message getting to the "masses", let alone those people really understanding the underlying engineering issues. Yes, the findings found in the report on the collapse of the Twin Towers is highly technical because it had to be...for both Government officials and Structural Engineers alike.

Steve, I too remember that day as if it were yesterday. By coincidence I was home from work that day with the flu bug. My wife had just returned home from her night shift as a Registered Nurse when she received a telephone call from a co-worker that a airliner had just crashed into the North Tower and to turn on the TV news. Little did we know that it was a terrorist attack underway at that specific moment. Only after actually witnessing LIVE on TV the second airliner crash into the South Tower did we realize the the planes had been highjacked by terrorists. It is a sad reminder that this world is still a dangerous place....

Pretty much everyone knows that the fire resulting from the jet fuel and the flammable contents contributed significantly the failure of the affected floor joists, what most people don't know is that when the airliners struck each tower they severed many interior columns and that they were dangling from the heavy structural steel trusses located in the roof for some time afterwards. These trusses were there to support the roof, TV/Radio antennas, and the helo pads; they distributed the floor and roof loads tothe exterior (perimeter) columns and were supporting the floor loads from below in the "strike" zone. When these trusses became heated by the fire from below they too loss sufficient steel strength and thus failed, causing the roof to pancake downwards, along with the affected floors that had been supported by the suspended interior columns. The rest of the collapse is pretty much self-evident.

If you ever watch the collapse of the North Tower is slow motion, you'll notice the TV/radio antenna move down significantly in the initial phases of the tower collapse.....basically, the antenna followed downwards with the failure of the roof trusses which subsequently pancaked onto each and every floor below.

As conspiracy advocates are quick to state that a government-placed bomb brought each tower is rubbish..... a 'mad bomber" would have placed the bomb in the tower basement. Little do they note that an independent (of the Gov't) and non-partisan committee was comprised by some of this country's most respected ASCE Structural Engineers. They seem to forget that fact, as well as the fact that another Forensic Engineering Report was conducted by the country's (if not the world) most respected Forensic Engineering firm. Both investigations and resulting reports were conducted independent of one another as well as having not been influenced by the Federal Government in any way.

I personally know a few of the ASCE-led committee members, and they are, IMPO, beyond reproach and being incapable of manufacturing fabrications.

I'm stating this just in case our buddy Jerry starts his crackpot diatribe....

As another Canadian I feel exactly the same. My dad served 4 years in the US Army so maybe it means more than to some Canucks, but to people like those responsible for this atrocity we are all the same.

For Passington Green & Capt's comments- very well put, but you should have mentioned that with that sort of stress it would be darned surprising not to hear funny noises throughout the building!

Thank you JNB. That's what I like about you Canadians...straight shooters and tell it the way it is!

It's no wonder I choose my Canadian best friend Tony (from Hamilton Ontario) to be my Best Man at my 2nd Wedding! Blood Brothers 'till the end.

MOOSEHEAD BEER FOREVER BROS!

ps: Modferators, we need a Moose head icon in here soon! LOL

You forgot sensible shoes. Apparently we're also known for our sensible shoes. And our RCMP. And beavers. I love a good beaver.

Yuppers, gotta love good Canadian beaver! Soooooo natural! ROTF

An interesting idea I heard awhile ago was the fact that if the beams would have been wrapped with asbestos like the original building plans had called for, there is a good chance the beams wouldn't have failed and the catatrophic failure of the structure wouldn't have happened. The beams would have been able to withstand the heat and therefore retained their strength.

This is where sometimes we get the priorities messed up and increase the risk for the sake of "something safe". We then increase the risk rather than decrease it.

This was an additional act of a war that had begun by militant Muslims quite a few years prior to this event. It really hacks me off that this attack, with such small cost on the part of the attackers, has totally made us revamp how we operate in this freedom-loving country. We should never forget the fact that some people hate freedom; spiritual, economic and political, and will do anything they can to take it from those who love and have those freedoms.

This will be an ongoing struggle for the hearts and minds of people all over the world. The only way it will ever change is for people to change their thinking to one of love for and pursuit of freedom in all three categories.

The reports pointed out the airliner impacts, coupled with the resulting fireballs, blew-off all vestiges of fireproofing material on the floor joist and columns. Unfortunately, the same would have happened if asbestos wrap had been present.

The ultimate result of all these investigations were more stringent building codes for skyscrapers in this country.........the new "Freedom Tower" currently under construction at the WTC site is a direct byproduct. It IS the strongest skyscraper ever build in the entire world.

Unfortunately, I don't think humankind will arrive at total peace within our lifetimes....the human brain is still wired much like our ancestors, the primitive apes, and thus we're dangerous critters through and through, to the world and ourselves. If you had ever served in combat you would know how utterly brutal and destructive human beings can be to one another. Frankly, I don't see us changing our ways for the better in the foreseeable future......we're hell bent on turning the surface of our blue marble into ashes with thermonuclear weapons or whatever more terrible and destructive future weapons we may devise. IMO, I think that is what eventually awaits us if we don't change our ways, God or no God, in terms of divine intervention.

Thanks for the clarification.

The worst thing that can when catastrophe takes place is to pay the price of that event, through human and property costs, and not learn anything from it. Evaluation of the events and the structural issues can bring about good changes.

You're right about human nature and it takes more than just our puny selves and willpower to change the heart.

While Jerry did not post in a particularly professional manner, noone since his post has really tried to answer his question about what I assume was what happened with building 7. That is as much of a mystery as anything about that day. It was not hit by any plane or significant debris, yet it collapsed in freefall. Could someone answer the original question?

They didn't answer my query regarding the Pentagon either.

Jerry, I am a retired Professional Engineer in the structural discipline. I do have the background to to draw respect for my opinions within the discipline. You, like most of the people on your site, don't.

One doesn't need a degree in ANYTHING to know that a building doesn't fall straight down unless through a CONTROLLED DEMOLITION. I'm not knuckling under to you chuckleheads, so give it up.

Engineering should be based on science, and science should be impartial with no room for emotion. Emotions only cloud issues and 9/11 is cloudy enough as it is. Key questions have not been attempted to be answered, such as what happened to building 7. Emotional responses are always suspect, as are attempts to attack character.

the collapse of the twin towers was due to incompetent engineering that led to a total structural failure of the buildings and caused the deaths of thousands of people and lead us into a war that caused thousands of more deaths.

my question is, "why where these buildings designed for failure?.

They weren't designed for failure. As far as I know, buildings aren't required to be built to withstand a crash by a fully fueled commercial airliner.

Jerry- You say that explosions were heard on the lower levels. Makes sense.

Do suppose that any of the thousands of gallons of fuel, may have ran down the elevator shafts and core of the building? Probably all the way to the basement, huh?

Have you ever witnessed or heard the sound of a flashover or backdraft? Sounds explosive. Not to mention, that the sucking of oxygen from surrounding areas would be enough to implode doors.

I can take my woodstove, with a good fire in it, and with the right combination of opening the damper and restricting it's air, make it sound like a freight train.

Think about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cH79ePz_l8&feature=related

in 1945 a b-25 bomber hit the empire state building. i would consider the damage as minimal due to the multiple columns supporting every floor.

the design of the the twin towers buildings depended on one interior connection. the elevator shaft.

it was a house of cards.

durtieduck, I'm in total disagreement with your assessment that the collapse of Twin Towers were due to incompetent structural engineering design.

At the time of their design (mid-to-late 1960's), they were the most advanced skyscrapers of their day in terms of structural engineering design.

Your accusations couldn't be further from the truth.....

What planet are you and other living on and where do you people come up with this stuff? Obviously, you haven't done a thorough investigative review of the engineering principles used to design the WTC. And what exactly is your engineering expertise to make such statements?

Ohhh brother......

Hey Moosie. Didn't we already go through all of this on another thread in the past?

Yes kram, we did go through this once before.......

May be a year ago, maybe two? Truthfully, I haven't had enough Joe this morning to sort out the gray matter sticking points.

Gotta go, as I have a huge tele-conference with a client, his partner, and his attorneys coming up in a few minutes! BILLABLE TIME!!!!

bye bye!

a so-called "advanced design" could mean anything.. advanced in what way and to whose benifit?

the floor system that was used saved someone hundreds of million dollars.