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Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

Posted November 08, 2016 8:05 AM by Bayes

For years now, the EM Drive, a propellantless thruster that physicists insist should be impossible, has produced measurable force in test after test. On the surface, the thruster appears to violate conservation of momentum, which is why it was dismissed or viewed skeptically at best (me included). However it is becoming increasingly clear that the EM Drive is fooling scientists in a completely unanticipated way or using physics scientists don't fully understand to produce the thrust.

This week, early results from a NASA test of the EM drive was released, and again it looks like the drive is producing thrust. Thrust orders of magnitude higher than that of a solar sail or a powerful laser. The kind of thrust you get when there is some kind of mass being ejected, even though there doesn't seem to be any mass being ejected.

Theories trying to explain the EM drive range from neutrinos somehow involved to vacuum particle ejection to manipulation of dark matter. In other words, no one understands what's going on. However one thing that appears to be more and more certain is the EM Drive produces thrust.

Here is an article detailing the leaked NASA paper.

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#1

Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/08/2016 9:06 AM

This sounds like a hoax...this design has been extensively tested with no thrust detected....Shawyer I think is another Rossi....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RF_resonant_cavity_thruster

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#2
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Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/08/2016 10:27 AM
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#3
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Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/08/2016 10:45 AM

From what I've seen, the design has been tested and confirmed several times. This is just another of many tests conducted by NASA (all have shown it produces thrust) and the Germans have tested the EM Drive and confirmed it as well (link to that paper). The Chinese have confirmed thrust as well.

However I believe skepticism makes sense here. There are reports that tests are being conducted on the EM Drive right now in space by the US Air Force as well as the Chinese Government.

So far the EM Drive has held up to scrutiny, but until it demonstrates thrust in space, it really will be hard to fully believe it's real.

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#5
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Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/08/2016 8:06 PM

Conclusion....

"The nature of the signals observed is still unclear. Additional tests need to be carried out to study the magnetic interaction of the power feeding lines used for the liquid metal contacts. Indeed many more checks remain like studying effects from outgassing, thermal effects from the magnetron, etc. Our test campaign can not confirm or refute in any way the claims of the EMDrive but intends to independently assess possible side-effects in the measurements methods used so far. We did find a number of side-effects in the previous setups that indeed can produce large false signals."...

How is this confirmation?

..."Science can't explain how the engine could possibly work and yet, somehow, throughout a range of tests at NASA's Eagleworks Laboratory, the engine reportedly continues to produce thrust. But here's the catch – so far none of these results have been peer-reviewed, and it can't be ruled out that the thrust isn't the result of some type of experimental error. So for now, we remain skeptical."

Clearly an error in measurement has not been ruled out...While some miniscule amount of thrust has been detected, it is not outside of what noise and thermal or magnetic effects could produce...With so many labs trying to produce results for several years and no conclusive evidence found, this is likely an error in measurement being produced by some unaccounted for source....If something works, it's just not that hard to prove....

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#6
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Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/08/2016 9:37 PM

Could be I misread the results. I thought they had concluded they had detected thrust that couldn't be attributed to noise. If they didn't then I agree we should be very skeptical.

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#4

Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/08/2016 6:02 PM

"The neutrino[nb 1] was postulated first by Wolfgang Pauli in 1930 to explain how beta decay could conserve energy, momentum, and angular momentum (spin)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino#Pauli.27s_proposal

It turns out that neutrinos, almost impossible to detect, are real and save the conservation laws.

If EM Drive works, almost certainly "something" remains to be discovered. If the conservation laws don't hold, a great part of science needs to be redone.

Three questions need to be answered.

1. Does the EM Drive work?

2. If yes, how does it work?

3. Given the answer to #2, can it be scaled up to be useful?

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#7

Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/08/2016 10:59 PM

How does it work? I have been thinking about that for a while, and yes, I have some speculations, so I hope you will forgive me if I post them.

Microwaves produce photons, which in turn causes heat, by interacting with an atom, it’s this interaction I would like to speculate about? I recently read an article that showed a photon being made ready to be released by an atom, It showed a tongue, of energy? Rising up from the shell with a photon on top taking on the shape of a smoke ring or doughnut shape. So my speculation is.

(1) Does a microwave photon, interaction with an atom displace an electron, which in turn prepares to reflect the photon? But before that can happen, the electron returns?

(2) The returning electron then cancels the prepared photon, it’s at this point I speculate what may happen? Has the photon been endowed with a point of direction? This point being an interaction with some property of space.

(3) If the photon has been endowed with a point of direction, can a returning electron reverse the photon, and draw it back down into the shell? So that raises the question, can a photon, having no mass instead of reversing back into the shell, draw the atomic mass up towards itself? And if this is random behaviour, then the microwaves will produce enthalpy in the material.

(4) So the next step in the speculation is, can we design a configuration, such that the microwaves, acting in a lazar like fashion, can we aligned enough so that the mass acted on by the realignment produce displacement, or thrust, instead of enthalpy.

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#8

Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/10/2016 5:53 AM

This doesn't necessarily disobey the known laws... maybe they are just looking in the wrong place for the reaction to the thrust... maybe it operates on some EM field elsewhere in the universe?...
In a galaxy far far away maybe some alien is finding his electromagnetic dwelling place is being displaced in an equal and opposite direction?
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#9
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Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/10/2016 8:27 AM

Maybe it is somehow accelerating dark matter.

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#10

Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/10/2016 9:45 AM

It is easy to see how this thing works...the principle of resonance applies here, as it takes less energy to keep something in motion or to accelerate than the initial "push" to start the motion.

When the microwaves bounce around they lose energy (motion). To keep the thing accelerating only a small additional "push" is required, not the initial amount of energy required to get the thing in motion...

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#13
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Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/10/2016 6:14 PM

Where does the energy (mass) for this 'small additional "push" ' come from?

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#15
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Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/14/2016 9:20 AM

...the intermittent pulse that is generated maintains the "push"...it takes much less energy to maintain the present velocity and even an increase in velocity...

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#11

Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/10/2016 10:01 AM

Despite all we believe we "know" the universe is a place of almost infinite possibility. I will allow some leeway for exploration because there was a time when we considered ourselves quite enlightened and believed we could prove the universe revolved around us.

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#12

Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/10/2016 6:09 PM

One way to generate thrust using only energy is to use photons as the propellant (the photon rocket).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon_rocket

A photon has energy and momentum:

p = E/c,

where p is the momentum, E is its energy, and c is the velocity of light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure#Radiation_pressure_by_emission

Force (or thrust), f, is the time derivative of momentum, and Power, P, is the time derivative of Energy, so:

f = P/c, or a thrust to power ratio of 1/c

Running the math, a photon rocket needs 300 megawatts to generate 1 newton (.2248 lb) of thrust.

The experimenters claiming thrust from the EM Drive (and Cannae device) are claiming much higher thrust to power ratio.

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#14

Re: Impossible EM Drive Works - NASA

11/10/2016 6:25 PM

Why Not! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjbtZ4NgtdA

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Bayes (2); Del the cat (1); jdretired (1); Lehman57 (1); rashavarek (2); Rixter (3); SolarEagle (3); Thomas Wiklanski (2)

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