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Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

Posted April 16, 2017 12:00 AM by Engineering360 eNewsletter

Considering that American consumers are not entirely comfortable with autonomous vehicles (AV) and the ability of the vehicle to make "moral" decisions, the development of AVs has spawned questions and discussions around ethics and responsibility in engineering. Follow this discussion through the "trolley problem" to responsibility in research and innovation.


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#1

Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/16/2017 9:55 AM

What is the proper algorithm for dealing with any situation a driver might encounter?

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#3
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 6:51 AM

We don't know for sure yet, but it is already better than what the average homo sapiens uses. (This opinion is reinforced every time I drive on the interstate.)

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#36
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/21/2017 9:29 AM

The self-proclaimed "geniuses" in Silicon Valley can't even get computers to run 100% reliably 100% of the time but they expect us to believe that they can do it with the 253 million cars and trucks on US roads, with variables like no desktop computer has ever had to face?

Not in my lifetime or anybody else's on this board.

Tesla sued over 'dangerously defective' Autopilot software

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#37
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/21/2017 9:42 AM

I award you a GA, and I would like to apply 2^10 gold stars for an answer that well played.

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#38
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/21/2017 11:02 AM

The goal doesn't need to be '100% reliability 100% of the time'. That is an inappropriate goal that would delay improvement/innovation giving a permanence to todays shortcomings.

.

An appropriate goal might be 'more reliable than people more of the time, and when not running reliably shuts down yo a safe condition with a minimal of risk of bodily harm or property damage.

The implementation needs only to be an unambiguous significant meaningful improvement overall as compared to the current system.

Reductions in fatalities and serious injury per occupant mile over manual driving is probably already occurring, or should be once enough data comes in.

Improvements in fuel economy per vehicle and per occupant mile should be achievable.

Reduction in congestion, parking scarcity, and commute times (due to not having occupants involved in finding and walking from parking) should also be quickly forthcoming.

.

Please consider the moronic severity of some current drivers, before deciding AI will never be smart enough to be better than the current norm.

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#39
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/21/2017 11:19 AM

The part I object to is someone like (that might not like me), hacking into the thing and killing me with it. I have enough problems on my own without a "hit man" getting involved.

No autonomous system, no chance of being hacked. That still would not rule you out from slipping one under my seat.

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#42
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/21/2017 7:40 PM

Physical systems can be hacked and with far less sophistication.

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#44
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/24/2017 10:01 AM

Yes, there are any number of Perry Mason episodes dating back to the late 1940's and early 1950's that dealt with murder by cutting the brake lines, tampering with the shift lever, etc. Then there is always the angry wife with a case of "it", tossing the AC powered radio in the bathtub with husband present in the water (OR vice versa).

Paranoia is no remedy when people really are out to get "one".

Eternal Vigilance is the price of continued Liberty and Peace. Violence is tempting to those in our society that face perceived injustice, deprivation of Liberty, or when threatened indirectly. Violence usually begets more violence. One never knows how one act of violence could unravel stability in so many lives. Airline travel seems to be ramping toward some strange ebullient frothing up of hostility at the present.

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#45
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/24/2017 11:42 PM

'...Paranoia is no remedy when people really are out to get "one"....'

.

Seems like it might not be so simple to be paranoid about real plots ( those not overly or wholly imagined) to do one harm.

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#46
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/27/2017 9:12 AM

"The goal doesn't need to be '100% reliability 100% of the time'."

What you're advocating there is putting drivers who've been careful enough for their entire lives while driving on the melee that is the public roads without having any type of accident, to suddenly be put in the cross hairs of, for example, a 26 wheel cement truck, programmed by a Silicon Valley know-it-all, fresh out of college, whose program can't differentiate between a green car against a forest or meadow, or a broadsided tractor trailer against a blue sky.

And please don't tell me it can't happen, it already has, ie, the Tesla incident.

What's particularly galling about Tesla's response was their contention that "neither the car's sensors nor the driver spotted it crossing the road."

On the one hand they breezily spout their incompetence as if it's a given that we need to accept or they'll find a way to put non-believers under a broad sided tractor trailer, and on the other they try to blame the driver saying he didn't see the truck either.

But they have no way of knowing he didn't see the truck - he could have just as easily been expecting the "Autopilot" (Autopilot - a laughable term in that context) to do what it claimed to be capable of doing - right up to the moment of impact.

Tesla has said that the reason for the Autopilot failing to spot the trailer was that it was white and, on a bright sunny day, neither the car's sensors nor the driver spotted it crossing the road.

Such a vile and disgusting arrogance combined with rank incompetence is never going to convince me that "The goal doesn't need to be '100% reliability 100% of the time'."

Did America put men on the moon with that attitude?

I don't think so.

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#47
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/27/2017 11:48 AM

I just saw a webinar yesterday about the next gen cameras called CAOS camera, where there is time-domain information in an image as well as wavelength domain information due to a cooperative controlled access optical system reminiscent of cellular telephone encoding. They were able to get up to 180 dB contrast between various pixel areas in an image by using such techniques.

The Tesla vs. truck incident was used as an example of one potential place where CAOS camera may save lives in the future. The contrast (ability to distinguish) being far higher than human vision can sense.

I still would not trust my life to autonomous vehicle. I would rather use the CAOS to find some very low level signal of IR light emitted in a really dark place.

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#48
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/27/2017 4:10 PM

What I'm advocating is being sufficiently open to new technology that we don't prohibit improvements in safety until such time as the tech is absolutely perfect.

.

I suspect you realize that even without AI, all drivers take risks by going out on the road. Pseudo-perfect drivers, errant drivers, bad drivers are all at risk on the road. If the accident/injury/fatality rate for AI vehicles is significantly and consistently lower than that for human driven vehicles, then resistance (if it had a meaningful effect) to against AI being introduced even though not totallu accident-free would be murderously idiotic.

.

Is it really so abhorrent to you that AI might make a mistake at all, that you would prefer ten people die in non-AI accidents, than for seven to die in AI-involved accidents?

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#49
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/28/2017 8:40 AM

I in no way wish to impede the progress of autonomous driver vehicles. I have seen some of the graduates of driver's ed. I have also noted that some drivers came here straight from Mexico (or further south), and may not have had the advantage of any particular training. Some may not have a driver's license, others suspended DL.

I have seen plenty of idiots taking their 3000 lb missile to speeds that are totally insane in the afternoon rush hour, weaving in between cars and trucks like this is some NASCAR event. I am just waiting for one to play "tag" with a gravel hauler or large dump truck, and watch them cartwheel several 360's before they roll, or have secondary collisions.

Insanity is not the fault of highway system. It has to do with immature people behind the wheel, that either do not know, or do not care about the rules of the road.

It is sort of like allowing a small group of fascist thugs (leftists) threaten violence if a certain speaker is allowed to express the open opinion in a public forum (i.e. Berkeley).

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#50
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/28/2017 9:23 AM

I'm not against the concept in principle.

I just know from my daily experiences with my own desktop computer that the execution of the concept won't come anywhere near to meeting the objectives.

On a desktop you just have the annoyance of having to do restarts several times a day but there's no restart after you've been anonymously guided under a tractor trailer by a silicon valley teenager, and your previously perfect driving record won't count for anything as your head's being removed from your body by one his software "bugs".

And your deaths will be nonchalantly explained away by an anonymous PR zombie who's shoved in front of the press by the cowards hiding in the back room .... "OK folks, this one was caused by the rain being too slippery and our sensors weren't able to detect that but we're working on a patch as we speak. Next?"

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#51
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/28/2017 9:46 AM

I think your fears are misplaced.

There is much more to fear on the road from the drunk (or simply showing-off) actually-there-in-person teenager driving his dad's Charger, than there is from a bit of code some silicon Valley genius helped to develop.

Don't worry, in this litigious country, every single AI involved accident will be scrutinized to the nth degree. The sheer liability will keep AI from being widely implemented until it can be unambiguously demonstrated it is significantly better than most drivers.

Yes there will be problems along the way. But those problems, as tragic as they will be, will be small in number compared to the everyday carnage that human imperfection reliably brings..and it is exactly that problem it will eventually correct. So give it some room.

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#52
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/28/2017 3:51 PM

I trust my instincts to keep out the way of drunks and tearaways more than I'd ever trust a silicon valley "genius" with my life.

You're welcome to give it some room, but I won't be joining you.

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#53
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/29/2017 12:27 AM

Do you plan to stay off the roads, or do you have more active protest in mind?

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#54
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/29/2017 1:25 AM

Instincts are fine, but also listen to logic.

Somewhere over 100,000 teslas are on the road in the US. Total US car fleet is around 275 million. So, teslas make up around .036% of the US car fleet. I don't have the data on miles driven, which is important, but I suspect Tesla being new cars drive more miles than the average fleet (new cars are not usually purchased to be stored in the garage and not driven).

Around 110 people die every day in auto accidents in the US. For 0.036% of those to be from Tesla, we would be hearing about a Tesla death every month.

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#55
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/29/2017 9:41 AM

You base your argument on such a miniscule portion of the US vehicle fleet and project that out to prove it's a fait accompli?

Show it to the family of Joshua Brown, the driver that relied on Tesla's "Autopilot" to see broadsided tractor trailers in clear visibilty and calm weather.

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#56
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/29/2017 10:24 AM

100000 vehicles is miniscule? Ridiculous.

Please show your argument to resist making automobile travel safer to the families of the 35,000 that have died on in auto accidents in the US since the day he died.

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#57
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/29/2017 3:46 PM

You said, "teslas make up around .036% of the US car fleet."

And you're projecting a fait accompli from that miniscule proportion?

You don't even listen to yourself so why would I expect you to listen to anyone else's point of view?

Truth is not a compromise.

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#58
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/30/2017 9:16 AM

I let it slide the fist time....but since you are insistent, it needs to be brought up. 'Fait accompli' doesn't work in you usage. It means something already decided which those who are to find out can do nothing about. How one might project that, and what power you feel I might have to make decisions others cannot affect is not clear.

Look, when you are talking about a few hundred million automobiles, .036% (100,000 cars) is not 'miniscule', insignificant, nor unimportant. Consider that you are so focused on one death out of roughly 40,000 that have happened in the last year.... so 0.0025% has you flipping out. What kinds of conclusions have you drawn from your (far more miniscule) sample?

.

The point wasn't to conduct a scientific study. I was just making a back of the envelope calculation with some very accommodating assumptions (erring on the side of making AI appear more dangerous than it is) and noting the dearth of deaths that should be happening if this wasn't more safe than typical drivers.

.

Go ahead, defend Drunk drivers and showoffs. Disparage AI. But realize who is actually killing most of the people.

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#4
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 7:19 AM

there isn't just one algorithm to handle the various situations.

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#5
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 7:51 AM

I suspect he meant "set of algorithms".

The set of decision solutions will have to be set by legislation, not programmers. There will probably be different sets for different countries, so you will have to download an addendum every time you drive over a border.

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#6
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 8:00 AM

and in the mean time,... courts will set the precedence until the new updated laws?... will catch up..

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#14
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 2:37 PM

Oh, THAT makes so much more sense. I can see the "set of algorithms" changing like the weather in foggy bottoms. I also cannot see autonomous cars going anywhere I need to go, or being available to come pick me up.

I would not own one on a bet.

If it comes down to it, there is always a horse.

So what do these things to when you run out of a "marked" road? Just stop? What if you have to turn off a "marked" US highway onto a Farm to Market Road, a paved path, or Dog forbid, a dirt road?

Stupid, just plain stupid. If city dwellers want them, sure I hope they enjoy being on an "egg conveyor" system. Better yet if there is no view. They obviously have no need to see what is going on around them, or care, or know they they are going to end in a split second (collision).

It makes for a lot of "drunk" riding. Maybe that would be a slight improvement over the average driver on late night weekends.

States would have to tax the dawg out of AN, because there would be far less revenue from traffic citations. How does one go about giving a citation to a AN?

By the time these AN's take over, there will be no problem with different sets of regulations in other states or countries, it will be one world govmint, with one rule for everyone, no vote, no freedom, and no choices. Just existence, if you choose the blue pill.

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#15
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 3:13 PM

I too will never buy one.

I don't care about any of the arguments, I want to drive myself.

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#16
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 3:29 PM

Some of us have already driven ourselves -- mad.

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#17
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 3:38 PM

. . . he said, with buggy whip firmly in had, and white knuckles!

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#18
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 3:45 PM

Quite honestly James, I understand what you are saying right up to the point where you departed into a rant. I know full well that many places in America are not firmly attached to reality or for that matter have made it to the 21 century yet. I have no problem with “for morons only” roadways. The rest of us will be that much safer and the attrition rate for morons ought to guarantee their total extinction within a decade or so.

Of course there are far too many roads, cow paths, fire breaks, in America to believe that full auto drive all the time every where is going to happen soon but mark my words, it will happen. Caveat; If our adoption of train control systems is any indication it may be a while.

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#19
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 4:12 PM

I certainly agree with that last sentence. I can't imagine what Teamsters Union can do with this tech.

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#22
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 9:19 AM

So you already took the blue pill? Sorry to hear that. What makes you so sure everyone out there on the road is a moron, except, of course, you?

The old saying: "Everyone in this asylum is mad except me" comes to mind.

I already know (as most of you do by now), that I am as mad as a march hare, but I can still smell a denier of the status when I smell one. Sniff, sniff.

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#24
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 9:41 AM

No arguments from me on that account. Hey was that you that passed me on I-27 this morning, while weaving lanes? I was doing speed limit + 5, and whomever it was must have been clocking over 95 mph. Narrowly missed me, then even more narrowly missed the rear end of the fellow ahead of me in the middle lane.

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#25
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 10:41 AM

I'm sure he (or she?) was in his 20s, had the reflexes of a jet pilot and could handle any situation. Then he blasts around my mother, she panics and runs off the road, taking two other cars with her. And he probably doesn't even notice. (Yeah, I know, she should have had her keys taken away years ago. But we live in Florida and everybody drives until they are 95 here.)

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#28
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 11:40 AM

And if anyone had one of these, I could understand how one couldn't resist letting it do its thing: http://newatlas.com/trans-am-super-duty/49016/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=9cf0c44749-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-9cf0c44749-90124229 or: http://newatlas.com/koenigsegg-agera-rs1/49033/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=9cf0c44749-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_65b67362bd-9cf0c44749-90124229

WHY?

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#29
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 11:46 AM

Could not follow the link, does that have an optional SAW, or a cab mounted 50 cal cannon add-on?

Very sporty looking ride indeed. I hope they have good success with her.

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#30
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 12:05 PM

Nothing that exotic. A 1000hp "Firebird Trans Am" and a 1360hp Agera XS, just plain old boring street legal cars. Obscene toys.

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#2

Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 4:42 AM

What could be a script for ethics and morals. It probably consumes a lot of learning resource/memory too I guess.

Would AI ever learn to handle a deli ma?

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#7

Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 10:03 AM

In the meantime wouldn't the losses due to inappropriate ethical AI decisions still be far less than those as compared to normal human driving errors?

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#8

Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 11:16 AM

In a small way this is a funny discussion. When you consider how many things are now done everyday by machines. Even surgeries. We have a robot right downtown here at UW Madison that will replace your knee. I have watched an automated welder attach a round throat to a round tank. Two different thicknesses of stainless. It laid down a perfect bead with flawless penetration, no discoloration or warpage and almost zero slag and in far less time than a human could.

Would we really want to go back to washing our clothes by hand?

So many things have been improved by the use of machines and machine intelligence. Time and time again we see the job done faster, better, higher quality, less waste, more economical and yet here we are debating if a self driving cars will be better. The answer is already out there and it is yes.

The only problem they are dealing with is when the automated car has to deal with the irrational, illogical, law breaking, rule averse human. Then all bets are off.

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#9
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 11:22 AM

like the automatic welder you mentioned... they are just following a program... after your set the reference points.

for welding, its quite easy to set the parameters... but it is limited on its abilities.

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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 12:50 PM

I agree with you Phoenix, But let me ask you this, how is driving to work and back any different than welding tanks? We fill the roadways with morons, something we don’t usually do to stainless steel tanks. LoL

So let’s look at that variable. Morons. A computer has no problem with roadways. They are fixed, solid, not prone to moving except in California. The paint lines are set, the on and off ramps set, speed set, So a computer should have no problem there. If the car in front is comp and the car behind is comp then they maintain a safe distance between them without a problem. My work doesn’t move. My house doesn’t move. The parking space at work or my garage doesn’t move or change direction so the car should always be able to find them.

SO far so good, but wait, there’s more! Now we add the moron factor. The person who cuts in between the two comp cars that are maintaining a safe distance causing both to have to rapidly adjust. Then we have the “idiot light” folks who believe that if they put on their turn signal they can pull over immediately regardless of the car being there. Or the “that stop sign doesn’t apply to me” folks or the "I don’t have to wait my turn at the four way" folks, or the "Yellow means speed up" folks. The let’s come to a complete stop in a travel lane on the interstate folks. All of these stupid human behaviors and many others are what cause the problem for the autodrive cars.

Fact: humans don’t deal with these moron behaviors well either.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 12:54 PM

my point is... just welding tanks,... not surprises or special issues... good to go...

as far as driving a car... "defensive driving" kept me accident free for over 40 years. And I still consider myself lucky.

I like to add,... "defensive driving" was the most important thing I learned in Drivers ED.

And I'm sure that is the basis of the programing structure for Autonomous Vehicles.

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#12
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 1:54 PM

Exactly my point. Defensive driving is all about protecting yourself from morons with drivers licenses. When all cars are automatic then the problems will be very rare.

My thought for starters would be to have all cars and semi’s equipped for autodrive abilities and for those to be used at first on interstates as they are already limited access and have a much bigger roadway area than state highways. This is also where poor driving habits create the most danger and fatalities. With all cars and semi’s computer controlled I can guarantee you that travel will be not only safer, but faster as speeds will be able to be increased because machines can handle it whereas many humans can’t. Imagine no more 100+ car and truck fog/snow/rain/visibility collisions?

So you pull into the on-ramp que and stop. You are instructed to turn off manual drive capablility. The roads computer then links to your car and based on your programmed destination plans you the fastest route. It then lowers the protective barrier that keeps morons off the autodrive roadway and then accelerates and merges you into traffic flow. Upon reaching your destination exit the computer pulls your car into the exit que and stops. Then it disconnects autodrive and allows you to re initiate human drive and go on your way.

If at anytime the auto drive fails or you attempt to disengage autodrive the car engages a protected back up control system. It engaged and pulls the car over, shuts it down, and notifies the police to come get you safely off the roadway. Oh and while it does this, none of the other cars slow down to rubber neck making it safer for everyone.

I tend to be more of an offensive driver and a firm believer in the first rule of Italian road racing. As long as you are faster, what is behind you, doesn’t matter. but would gladly turn the job over to the computer and enjoy the scenery if I could.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/17/2017 1:59 PM

well what do you know... we have the same point all along... just stop crowding me and stay on your side of the point...

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#32
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 3:30 PM

"... It laid down a perfect bead with flawless penetration, no discoloration or warpage and almost zero slag and in far less time than a human could. ..."

.

I think you are a bit head over heals for the idea of a robowelder. Slag? For a robotic weld on stainless? Come on. 'Hardly any'?!? There should be none, even for a mere human.

Sure, stick welding and fluxcore both have stainless options, but no one uses that as robotic processes. Why would they? Who wants to go clean up slag, and use up all the man hours you saved with the robot.

Perhaps it will help to keep in mind that the weld parameters still have to be programed in by someone with welding knowledge.

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#33
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 3:54 PM

Ok, so now you know how long it's been since I dropped a bead.

Nah, robowelders are neat, sure, but a Plasma CNC or 3D printer are way cooler. :-)

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#34
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 5:17 PM

If the settings are correct,.. I won't argue... they have automatic orbital pipe welders for sanitary Process Piping. I just got info from one of my feeds where One uses TIG welders. And it was similar as he discribed.

now,... if you get someone who doesn't know how to set one up... the weld resembles an abortion gone bad.

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#35
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 10:33 PM

Sure. Porosity, too hot, too cold, undercut, tungten inclusions, awful....but slag?

Slag typically requires flux.

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#20

Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 9:12 AM

Seems most people on this thread have missed the point. The OP is not about whether AVs should be on the road, that is a fait accompli. It's not about whether you would own, or even use one.

Read the linked article. It is about the moral and ethical implications from an engineering standpoint. Personally, I thought it was a good read.

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#21
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 9:18 AM

It is about the moral and ethical implications from an engineering standpoint.

No, no one missed it. To be able to discuss moral and ethical implications, first you need to understand the implications and the possible ethics.

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#23
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 9:25 AM

To be able to discuss morals and ethics, firstly, one has to actually possess morals and ethics. That leaves me out. I say drag hang 'em all! I am going to revert back to low tech before I enter my second childhood (and no Mildred, I have not gotten over my first childhood yet). Hey Mildred, you wanna come over and play Cowboys and Floozies? You be the floozy!

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#26
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 11:19 AM

No, I read it. I simply found it very naïve and was enjoying battering with the good folks on this thread. Ok, my background is a bit different than most of the folks here so let me help with something from my field of study. Moral and ethical considerations are only pertinent to thinking, feeling individuals. Machines have no agenda, no values, no feelings, no desires to fulfill, so there is no way to equate morals and ethics to them. Granted, anthropomorphizing machines is nothing new, but really not accurate (since they are not living beings in the same sense as we are). A machine's awareness of the world is only as broad as the programmers make it. The variables it will consider are only the ones it is given to evaluate. The decision it makes is strictly limited to its programming. At no time will you find a computer dealing with a crisis of conscience. HAL is not even close to reality. Nor will they be able to anytime in the near future (if anything, think the Azimov story, “I Robot,” and function of a difference engine).

Let’s face it, there are a good many humans who have no feelings, morals, ethics or conscience, so why we would expect such behavior from machines when we don’t even expect it, insist upon it, or effectively punish the lack of it in our fellow people is beyond me.

The reality is stark. There are no morals in random acts of fate. The universe applies no ethics in the vagaries of your future. Machines really don’t “care.”

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#27
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 11:37 AM

Some do see the Universe as nothing more than a stochastic assemblage. I hold a greater vision of the Universe, but one I will choose to no longer share about on this forum.

Removing G.O.D. from the equation was the first step down the long path of making America into Amerika (socialist nation, no longer based on Liberty). Most people mistake Liberty to mean the freedom to act in a randomly willful manner, the utmost in selfishness, self-serving behavior. I disagree. I say Liberty is the freedom to choose with deliberation how I will conduct myself, thoughtfully, even prayerfully at times, so that I maximize my potential to fulfill my true destiny, and to simultaneously assist other pilgrims in the same journey.

The only part I object to is a government that assumes the role of dictating what the feeling and thinking will be, and to set artificial boundaries that stifle the souls of mankind.

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#31
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Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/18/2017 3:30 PM

Now, to keep this somewhat on point, God could care less about our cars or for that matter any of the other ways we get around. So it really matters not to the Almighty whether you or your smartphone is driving your car. Now if you used your car as a weapon to kill others I would imagine your turn at the gates in front of St. Peter is not going to go well regardless of who was driving because it’s the intent that’s being judged.

“The only part I object to is a government that assumes the role of dictating what the feeling and thinking will be, and to set artificial boundaries that stifle the souls of mankind.”

Yes, I object to this too becasue this is what happens when governments try to use religion, or any other dogma based doctrine to control people.

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#40

Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/21/2017 12:41 PM

There are statistics and then there are statistics. We all know that numbers can be manipulated to demonstrate just about anything. So here are the governments statistics.

http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-autopilot-cuts-crash-rates-by-40-government-finds-2017-1

Another amazing aspect of human nature is the number of people who will ruin their personal and professional reputations in some sort of strange vendetta against change and progress, both of which are inevitable. A certain New York Times Auto Writer comes to mind.

http://techland.time.com/2013/02/14/tesla-motors-pours-cold-data-on-new-york-times-model-s-review/

We also know, or should know, America is the most litigious nation on earth. We allow law suits in our country that would not even be entertain or even result in the attorney filing the suit to be held in contempt in other industrialized nations.

https://teslamondo.com/2015/12/25/can-autopilot-survive-sue-happy-usa/

http://insideevs.com/tesla-autopilot-faces-pressure-from-lawsuit-happy-litigators/

Human behavior can be puzzling. Why are so many scared of everything? Why do we tend to not take responsibility for our mistakes. We have all heard “it’s the cars fault” for as long as there have been cars and very rarely has it ever been “the cars” fault.

So perhaps a review of human morality and ethics (maybe even intelligence) would be more beneficial than questioning a machines "motives".

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/21/2017 12:48 PM

Nail on head there. Human morality and ethics remains essentially 7th Century, whilst tech marches into the 21st Century.

Cars are tools, I just prefer that my tools not rise up against and smite me on mine brow.

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#43
In reply to #40

Re: Autonomous Vehicles: Innovation, Ethics, and Responsibility

04/22/2017 4:51 AM

"... Why are so many scared of everything?..."

.

You might be misreading their motivations. That look in their eyes isn't from being stunned by fear, they are drunk with the possibility of richs....that is often what motivates many of the litigious excesses.

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