CR4 - The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion ®


The Engineer's Notebook Blog

The Engineer's Notebook

The Engineer's Notebook is a shared blog for entries that don't fit into a specific CR4 blog. Topics may range from grammar to physics and could be research or or an individual's thoughts - like you'd jot down in a well-used notebook.

Previous in Blog: The U.S. Cities With (Or Committed to) 100% Renewable Power   Next in Blog: Will Graphing Calculators Move Online?
Close
Close
Close
41 comments

Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

Posted May 11, 2017 2:00 PM by MaggieMc

Perhaps I’ve watched too many episodes of Bones, but I was under the impression that the scientific community had Neandertal injuries figured out. It turns out, like true scientists, they’re still questioning the data.

A recent analysis presented by Libby Cowgill at the 2017 meeting of the American Association of Physical Anthropologists presented the idea that “[a]ctivities that cause injuries most resembling the Neandertal patterns have no apparent relation to Stone Age behavior.”

This idea contradicts a 1995 report that “Neandertals, like modern rodeo riders, suffered lots of head and above-the-waist injuries and little hip and leg damage.”

The new analysis, completed by Cowgill and James Bain, examined the bone fractures of 61,851 patients between January 2009 and December 2014, ignoring a broader range of skeletal injuries like “signs of degenerative bone disease.” This analysis found that rodeo riders had fewer skull injuries, and more hand wounds, ruling them out of the Neandertal comparison since about 30% of Neandertal injuries affected the face and head.

Of 84 activities that resulted in bone fractures, “only 16 activities showed any statistical similarities to Neandertals’ injury patterns.” Comically, water tubing and table run-ins had the most similarities, followed by accidents involving golf, lawn chairs, and Frisbee.

Cowgill and Bain suggest that none of these injuries have any bearing on the types of activities Neandertals may have undertaken.

In the 1995 research that inspired this new analysis, the researchers suggested the rodeo rider-like injuries came from violent, up-close clashes with large prey—similar to the clashes rodeo riders have with bucking broncos.

In 2012, one of the co-authors of that study, Erik Trinkaus, questioned their findings in 2012, claiming the injuries could have resulted from many other causes. Trinkaus posits intraspecies clashes or even that fractures could have occurred during fossilization, meaning they may not even reflect specific behaviors. Trinkaus also points out those with lower body injuries may have “been left to die before reaching rock shelters where most fossils have been found,” giving us a disproportionate view of injuries.

Image credit: E. Trinkaus via ScienceNews

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2914
Good Answers: 115
#1

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/11/2017 2:10 PM

Yes

Alley "Bubba" Oop takes Ugg the legendary seahorse out for a spin.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 17861
Good Answers: 312
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/11/2017 3:04 PM

Riding a horse in 4'-6' of water is fun for both the horse and rider. When we rode hoses on the farm, we never past up a pond or gravel pit with water for a quick dip.

If that makes me a Neandertal, so be it.

__________________
phoenix911
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2914
Good Answers: 115
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/11/2017 3:33 PM

As a young Neandertal I used to ride a lot. Dad once rode in a rodeo but broke his ribs during one event when the horse slipped and fell with him underneath (barrel racing I think). That was it for his rodeo adventures.

We used to ride along the seashore but never in more than ankle-deep water as dad didn't want to get the saddles wet. Riding bareback in the deeper water would have been fun but for safety reasons he wouldn't let us kids ride bareback.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 17861
Good Answers: 312
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/11/2017 3:49 PM

Every Sunday, my 2 older brothers, @ sisters, dad, sometimes mom, and a few of our neighbors would go riding through the Niagara escarpment, down the bluffs and into the bay of Green Bay.

I think this may be on the Lake Michigan side. (Whitefish Dune)

This I think is on the bay side.

We would start after morning chores were done, and return for milking that later afternoon about 5'ish.

lot of good stories,... getting caught in a cloud burst, thunderstorm, even getting stung by a bee (well, that wasn't a good story at the time.)

We rarely went on the bay side.... because of the development... and where there wasn't there wasn't much were you could take the horses.

yes,... saddles were somewhat protected for us also... but we still have some horses who would try to roll in the water with the saddle and rider still on.

But after a ride those saddles were sweated up.

.

__________________
phoenix911
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2914
Good Answers: 115
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/11/2017 3:54 PM

Man that's a lovely place! What a great place to ride.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 17861
Good Answers: 312
#8
In reply to #5

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 7:14 AM

Yes it was,... we did something, no one rarely did, and no one will every do. When we rode there, back in the 60's and 70's, we only had to ask 2 maybe 3 land owners.... now the bluffs are lined with condominiums.

But the memories are rich.

__________________
phoenix911
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2914
Good Answers: 115
#31
In reply to #8

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 1:56 PM
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#16
In reply to #4

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 10:04 AM

I just realized how long the Niagara escarpment is (compares favorably with the "Caprock" escarpment in West Texas, and is actually longer).

I will simply quit bragging about Texas, except when the mood suits me, and I have a cold Coors in hand.

"Hold my Coors, and by-Dog watch THIS!" - - Famous last words my some moron in West Texas,

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2914
Good Answers: 115
#28
In reply to #16

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 1:19 PM

Coors, and not the Lone Star State's very own Shiner Bock, born 'n' bred - the beer known to pass through hundreds of quality Czechs daily? Coors, that watered-down deer piss from that gorgeous pothead state NORTH of the Red River!?? Heresy I say! Heresy!

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#32
In reply to #28

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 1:58 PM

Well, I have not known too many cowboys that drank Shiner. It is a bit more expensive, was not widely distributed in these parts of the Lone Star State until the last 20 years or so, although it is good beer. I never saw but a few men near the Texas - New Mexico line that even drank Lone Star. Sure plenty of them drank Bud.

Coors was a "standard fare" up this way, not Coors Light. Colorado Rocky Mountain P-water. Vitamin P as it was called. Made men to be men, and snakes to be scared, sheep too.

That is about all I feel like ranting in return, other than to say, yes, I know people that drink Shiner, and lots of micro-brewery outputs as well, others that prefer Guinness, and one snippetty old hater (equal-opportunity with all the charm of an 8' rattler) that prefers Killian's Red Ale.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2914
Good Answers: 115
#33
In reply to #32

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 2:01 PM

Dos Equis isn't bad for a domestic beer, especially draught.

Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 181
Good Answers: 3
#35
In reply to #28

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/14/2017 4:16 PM

Do they still make Lone Star beer?

__________________
formally known as texasron
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2914
Good Answers: 115
#36
In reply to #35

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/14/2017 5:30 PM

Yep. Sure do.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - Old Salt Hobbies - CNC - New Member United States - US - Statue of Liberty - New Member

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rosedale, Maryland USA
Posts: 5182
Good Answers: 266
#37
In reply to #28

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/16/2017 2:59 PM

It's not deer p**s. Rocky mountain goat.

Wouldn't call Coors beer either.

__________________
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty, pristine body but rather to come sliding in sideways, all used up and exclaiming, "Wow, what a ride!"
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#39
In reply to #37

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/16/2017 3:39 PM

Yur just being snotty because you can't have any.

I actually do like Shiner Bock much better, but if thirsty, will drink Coors. I respect the Coors family, and you should too.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 8122
Good Answers: 747
#34
In reply to #16

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/13/2017 11:04 AM

It's been said, 'Everyone goes to Texas once.'

Guessing there's a reason most don't bother with going again.

I was there once. That was enough for me too.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#15
In reply to #3

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 9:59 AM

Heck, my mother used to ride bareback sidesaddle, over the drifting sand in search of water, through knee-deep snow, uphill both ways, and twice on Sundays to the Little Red Schoolhouse at Loop, TX. My mother was a mild-mannered, but exquisitely tough little bird. Few things ever phased her except my Dad, and she would just say, "Charlie".

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2914
Good Answers: 115
#29
In reply to #15

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 1:30 PM

My neighbour's mum once rode bareback sidesaddle but was immediately arrested for indecent exposure.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#14
In reply to #2

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 9:56 AM

I knew you to be a Neanderthal long before this. Good on ya, Trog!

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5088
Good Answers: 604
#7
In reply to #1

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 7:07 AM

I was on the water polo team for a while when I was in college. I decided to give it up though, because it bothered me that the horses kept drowning.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#13
In reply to #1

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 9:55 AM

We used to use fresh "deep broke" ground for that with similar effect. It tames down a nag quickly.

A real Brumby or a Western Mustang, would scoff at either.

Thankfully we didn't live on Snowy River.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8297
Good Answers: 339
#6

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/11/2017 7:45 PM

Cowgill and Bain suggest that none of these injuries have any bearing on the types of activities Neandertals may have undertaken.

What, like chasing large dangerous animals with close range weapons for their meat, pelt and other items necessary to their life?

Neanderthals may not have been as smart as we are nowadays (well most of us), but I am confident even they were smart enough to realise that even a small injury that nowadays would be trivial to treat could be life-threatening to them and had enough common sense not to faff around in an unnecessary and dangerous manner.

__________________
jack of all trades
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2020
Good Answers: 81
#9

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 9:04 AM

Hey!!!! What's the big idea of putting the image two bones side by side and a dimension in an engineering forum thread and not mentioning anything about it.

That's just cruel.

__________________
J B
Reply
Power-User
Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member CR4 Admins - CR4 Moderator - New Member

Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: New York State
Posts: 158
Good Answers: 2
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 9:22 AM

You're absolutely right. I forgot my caption. They are humeri taken from a neanderthal individual. The bottom bone, the right humerus, is an example of an injury considered in these findings. The bone is sheared off just above the elbow. ScienceNews reports that it may have been due to an emergency amputation. The top bone is the left humerus, shown for comparison.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2020
Good Answers: 81
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 9:35 AM

Thanks for clarifying. Amputation during neanderthal days? Hmmmm sounds painful. But I guess life in general was pretty painful back then.

__________________
J B
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 17861
Good Answers: 312
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 9:44 AM

Amputation during neanderthal days? Hmmmm sounds painful.

It actually sound more like a lot of tearing, twisting and pulling. Very little cutting.

__________________
phoenix911
Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 620
Good Answers: 32
#17
In reply to #12

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 10:42 AM

You obviously haven't been around stone tools. I have flintknapped since about 1985 and the cutting edge on obsidian or flint can be down to a single molecule thick, several orders of magnitude sharper than a honed steel edge. Doing an amputation with obsidian would actually be easier and much less painful.

A standard part of the flintknappers tool kit is a clean bottle of superglue to close up cuts during the process. Most often you don't feel the cut and only notice that you're leaving a trail after the fact.

For quite a while, a fractured obsidian blade was the preferred scalpel for eye and vascular surgery as the cuts were cleaner and healed quicker than steel surgical tools.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 10:49 AM

... could even be more sanitary, especially if the edge is freshly prepared.

I don't think Neanderthal (Trog) carried any superglue in his medicine bag.

Could they have something else? A tree gum, or pine resin (I am thinking ouch!)?

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 620
Good Answers: 32
#21
In reply to #18

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 11:02 AM

For most small cuts you can pinch the cut closed and within 15 to 30 minutes it will reknit closed on it's own. Superglue was for loose flappy bits so that the ends wouldn't pull. After a short while you get pretty good at not slicing yourself up using preventative strategy. You knap, grind off all the sharp edges, knap again and grind off all sharp edges. The final actual sharp edge is done with a leather pad and a pressure flaker.

Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 17861
Good Answers: 312
#19
In reply to #17

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 10:51 AM

You obviously haven't been around stone tools.

No, I haven't and I realize the edge on a stone tool can be surgery scalpel sharp.

The point is,... for the decision for an amputation at the time of the Neandertal to occur, it would probably consist of cutting through some remaining sinew left intact after a mishap.

No one amputates a perfectly good appendage... well, most no one.

__________________
phoenix911
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#20
In reply to #19

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 10:55 AM

I suspect they realized to attempt to save that life they needed to take immediate action. Suppose the individual was partially trapped in a cave collapse, or sock rock slide?

I have to start watching out for those sliding socks. Especially rox in sox.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 620
Good Answers: 32
#24
In reply to #20

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 11:12 AM

Considering that there are several examples where individuals went through skull trepanning to reduce cranial pressure or just "let out the demons" and the patient survived for a long time afterwards, those folks had a fair amount of medical capability regardless of their theoretical grounding for treatment protocols.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 620
Good Answers: 32
#22
In reply to #19

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 11:09 AM

Sinews are no problem - requires almost no cutting pressure at all. Cartilage, no problem. Bone - chips edges if you're not careful. Dry rawhide can also chip edges.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#23
In reply to #22

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 11:10 AM

But here we are talking fresh flesh. No problem at all, and a clean amputation is possible, although I wonder how they dealt with the bleeders...

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 17861
Good Answers: 312
#25
In reply to #22

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 11:13 AM

considering you keep straying from my point, let me rephrase it....

Question: What do you call a Neandertal with no arms and stands on a stage?

Answer: Mike!

__________________
phoenix911
Reply
Guru

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 620
Good Answers: 32
#26
In reply to #25

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 11:18 AM

Reminds me of a book title, "I'm a Pole and So Can You".

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#27
In reply to #25

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 11:37 AM

What the...did I just read? Neanderthals' everywhere are now becoming social justice warriors.

(1) The clearly intentional misspelling of the name Neanderthal, except for those that used the rarer spelling of Neandertal from the Neandertal region of Germany, but those were known for a particular grooming style where the mustache of men was shaved off at the periphery - - the toothbrush mustache. The others wore the distinctly curled up "cooty-broom" style.

(2) The reference to veterans of the Neanderthal wars, that mostly came home missing one or both arms, after severe conflicts with the Knights of Nee. The Neanderthals usually only lost appendages while pursuing the Knights of Nee, when screams leaving the battlefield of "Run Away, Run Away" could he heard over the din of the nonexistent battle.

(3) The reference to Minions, that do resemble microphones, and are all named Mike, except for the ones named Bob, Steve, Buddy, etc.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 17670
Good Answers: 1008
#30

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/12/2017 1:48 PM

Historical documentation....

__________________
Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving. A.E.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 17861
Good Answers: 312
#38

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/16/2017 3:07 PM

Goat, Deer, Horse?...

Seems we have a lot of p**s 'connoisseurs' here.

__________________
phoenix911
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 10405
Good Answers: 126
#40
In reply to #38

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/16/2017 3:40 PM

Yep, takes a p**ser to know one.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 17861
Good Answers: 312
#41
In reply to #40

Re: Did Neandertals Enjoy Water Sports?

05/16/2017 3:52 PM

Here's to ya....

'Prost'

__________________
phoenix911
Reply
Reply to Blog Entry 41 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Andrew Westman (8); jack of all trades (1); James Stewart (11); JBTardis (2); Jpfalt (5); MaggieMc (1); ozzb (1); phoenix911 (8); ronc (1); SolarEagle (1); tcmtech (1); Usbport (1)

Previous in Blog: The U.S. Cities With (Or Committed to) 100% Renewable Power   Next in Blog: Will Graphing Calculators Move Online?

Advertisement