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Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

Posted August 01, 2017 3:56 PM by amichelen

Now, in the middle of the boreal summer, the sad story of the horses at race tracks like in Saratoga Springs, comes to mind. On average 24 horses die per week in US race tracks, during training, and during the races. The horses are commodities for their owners. If a horse breaks a leg it is killed by the owner, instead of retiring the animal and letting him spend the rest of his days in a pleasant place. To do this, the owner would need to spend money on a horse that is useless for him as a money machine.

This week, at the beautiful Saratoga Springs (New York) race track, two more horses died, making four horses dead in the first 8 days of the racing season that lasts six weeks every summer; six horses have died since April. Statistics for Saratoga:

YearDead horses
200910
201015
20119
201213
201310
201414
20159
201615

According to the Gaming Commission of New York Executive Director Robert Williams, most of these deaths are attributed to excessive exercise-related, musculoskeletal injuries. Horses are also forced to exhaustion during training and races.

To sponsor these people by attending a race track is – for me – totally unacceptable. By spending money at race tracks we not only engross the pockets of the torturers of these magnificent animals, but also we encourage others to follow suit.

This is my opinion. I think if we like professional horse races, we may also like dog fights (that are getting more popular every day), or like to observe how a coward “torero” kills a bull with a spade in front of thousands of spectators, or even we may enjoy taking our kids to a zoo full of caged animals.

I wonder if we really need these types of entertainment. What is wrong with attending a Shakespeare festival in the summer?

What do you think about this?

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#1

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/01/2017 8:43 PM

Where do you think dog food comes from? What about cows? ...How many cows die each year? ...What about goldfish?....Hamsters?.....Either plead for all animals lives, save humans of course, because we all know humans are evil, right?, or go back to the stables and groom your friends.....

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#9
In reply to #1

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 1:21 PM

I don't personally support horse racing, zoos or circuses but you have a point here--there's always going to be some hypocrisy as far as animal rights go, unless you're making the argument as a committed vegan. I recently witnessed a discussion about the ethics of Asian cultures eating cat and dog meat. Stripping away cultural bias, what's the ethical difference between a Korean eating dog and a Westerner eating a relatively intelligent animal like a pig? Not much.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 1:43 PM

You as a moderator should know better than anyone to not turn this into ugly politics.

I resemble at least one of those remarks. I would clearly shoot someone who was stalking my dog for lunch, and I shoot to kill.

I don't see anyone getting that emotional over a damned pig, unless it was their pet, and someone was molesting it with a machete.

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#90
In reply to #11

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/04/2017 11:11 PM

Awww isn't she cute....

http://www.pigplacementnetwork.org/

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#92
In reply to #90

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/05/2017 5:37 AM

Pigs are not only cute, they are cool as well as delicious.

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#93
In reply to #90

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/05/2017 12:36 PM

Very cute!

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#49
In reply to #1

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 2:52 PM

The go to Horse Heaven.

Having lived on the farm, injury to a horse can be pretty disparaging.

The worst I've seen do come from racetracks... where their leg would break, and swing around like a weighted down sock as the horse goes down. I stopped watching.

Yes some places in the south, encourage this towards the animals with rodeos where the more gruesome the more successful the event.

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#51
In reply to #49

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 2:57 PM

Primitive and ugly practice in the South!

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#54
In reply to #51

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 3:05 PM

And the local sheriff is making a killing on this, and arrests anybody who is going to take bread off his table.

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#59
In reply to #54

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 3:55 PM

Where do you get this nonsense?

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#68
In reply to #59

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 10:14 PM

Nonsense?,... only for a closed mind.

I enjoy a good rodeo, but there are also bad people. Here's one example.

still nonsense?

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#91
In reply to #68

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/05/2017 12:42 AM

Absolutely nonsense,. You are berate the South, so effectively that others chime in about how bad the South is. Your particular piece of evidence is from Oregon. Oregon! Squarely within the Northwest.

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#108
In reply to #91

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/10/2017 9:33 AM

You are berate the South,

That is nonsense,... Your passion just makes you hyper-sensitive... this happens all over... doesn't matter the location. And then you go on to say...

Your particular piece of evidence is from Oregon. Oregon! Squarely within the Northwest.

yes, you have passion ego alright... stop being so ridiculous and know the difference.

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#116
In reply to #108

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/11/2017 4:54 PM

You do berate the South by sayiny this as an activity that occurs there (not 'also there, among other places).

Your comment encourages the OP to chime in about how bad the South is in her eyes.

When challeneged about your disparaging remarks assigned to the South, as supply as purported support a video showing police misconduct in the state of Oregon.

Oregon is not the South. It may be south of Washington state, Canada and Alaska, but that doesn't make it the South. Any arguments to various semantic interpretation at thjs point is a cop out. It is clear the South to which you and the OP refer, and it is clear Oregon is not in that 'South'.

.

When you describe an undesirable behavior, such as a type of mistreatment as being endemic to a certain area, you are disparaging that area. The disparagement might be well deserved if mistreatment or other malicious behavior is truly endemic to just that area. Being asked to back up your disparaging remarks with support that actually provides evidence that what you are claiming actually occurs in the area you have chosen to disparage, shouldn't come as a shock, it isn't outrageous, it is the minimum you should expect when making claims of your sort.

You ridicule me saying I am being ridiculous. If this is so ridiculous, please point out the error in what I have detailed.

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#119
In reply to #116

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/12/2017 9:01 AM

You're blinded by your own ego... nothing more. Your reaction demonstrates you're hurt by that when the only thing I did is point it out that what you call passion is just ego. Only because it hits too close to home for you.

Like you, we raise horses also. With a breeding stud called Desert Wildfire, grandson of Desert Wytez II. If you're familiar with registered Arabians, you will be familiar with that name.

It starts innocently enough with pride. You have to recognize it, which you failed.

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#120
In reply to #119

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/13/2017 10:43 PM

"....With a breeding stud called Desert Wildfire, grandson of Desert Wytez II. If you're familiar with registered Arabians, you will be familiar with that name.

It starts innocently enough with pride. ...."

.

Are you absolutely certain the pride you are describing isn't more descriptive of something of your side?

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#121
In reply to #120

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/14/2017 7:11 AM

As I said before,.. It happens to all,... its just that I realize it and you don't.

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#122
In reply to #121

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/14/2017 12:27 PM

Best to withold your certainly for the things you actually know and not those things you assume about others.

If it is difficult for you yo decern the difference, then you have more pressing matters to attend.

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#123
In reply to #122

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/14/2017 12:38 PM

Why are you doing this?,... first you accuse me of defaming the south,... then when you realize I did no such thing, you went on a tirade and accuse me of reinforcing amichelen position...

What the problem is here, is you're wasting my time with your worthless straw man type of argument on your pointless and false argument with me.

You wasted enough of my time, I'll give you the last word.

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#124
In reply to #123

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/14/2017 1:11 PM

Once again you wrongly assign opinions and motivations.

Your statement was certainly defaming of the South. I haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise. Though, please note, my first comment on this line of the discussion was related to your use of a video which occurred in Oregon a supposed evidence supporting your disparaging remarks.

As a reference, here is you initial remark that indicated this behavior is endemic to the south:

"...

Yes some places in the south, encourage this towards the animals with rodeos where the more gruesome the more successful the event.

..."

.

Further, you have also seriously confused other portions. I did not say you are reinforcing amichelens position. I said you convinced others (in this case amichelen) to rally behind your slight of the South. That is completely different....unless you live in some universe where there is only one opinion or position.

As a reminder here is amichelen's comment rallying your slander of the south:

"...

Primitive and ugly practice in the South!

..."

.

You seem to apportion blame for what you see as error on my part to what level of experience I have with horses and horse racing. It wasn't till later in the exchange that you decided ego and pride on my part were to blame for what you see as my errors. Of course, your ability to assign motovation and blame have exactly zilch to do with how useful any of my comments might be.

.

Now, if you are true to your word, I will take the last word. I don't believe this back-and-forth is getting anywhere meaningfully.

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#125
In reply to #124

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/14/2017 2:26 PM

Remember, guys, this is a forum to talk and discuss any matter without offending or "fighting."

I think both of you have made a good contribution to this topic and I am really glad to read all your responses, even if I do not agree with all.

Thanks.

Abe

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#58
In reply to #49

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 3:54 PM

Hey stop knocking rodeo! You don't want angry cowboys invading Chicago Land now do ya?

I have not seen so many horse wrecks during rodeo, not even during bronc riding. It can happen, and it is unfortunate when it happens.

I have seen quite a few car wrecks, but I was not in them.

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#67
In reply to #58

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 10:08 PM

I'm not talking about legitimate rodeos... I'll look to see if there's a video clip of what I'm talking about

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#73
In reply to #67

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/04/2017 1:59 AM

So what about dog fights up north....talk about brutality...

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#77
In reply to #73

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/04/2017 7:11 AM

dog fights are all over and people such as Michael Vick got a light sentence.

And on the topic of dogs as how some dog owners train their dogs for coon hunting. That is pretty vicious. that the ones that survive make good coon dogs.

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#2

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/01/2017 10:33 PM

If you want to save a thoroughbred, there are hundreds of owners and trainers who would love to have you adopt one.

Do you really think these people have zero compassion for these animals? Even the people who raise beef cattle are not without compassion for the animals they are raising. Do you really imagine thoroughbred owners to be cackling with delight when one of their horses is injured?

These are absolutely not commodities. You either misunderstand the term 'commodity' or you grossly misunderstand the culture of animal husbandry.

Grow up.

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#7
In reply to #2

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 12:43 PM

I was too harsh in my response. That is no way to get anyone to take another look. I would recommend anyone who has concerns about the treatment of thoroughbreds related to racing, go talk to some trainers and owners of thoroughbreds.

Horses can be oddly fragile. Someone in my family once owned a portion of a stallion, I think 7 years old, with a great track record and a history of siring winning foals who was living what was probably a quite enjoyable life (definitely seemed into it). That horse rolled on the ground one afternoon and twisted up some intestines and was dead by the following evening IIRC.

Racing a horse is stressful. Training for races is stressful. Transporting horses is stressful. Horses can be oddly fragile. There are many many horse at race tracks. Deaths at the racetrack do not in and of themselves indicate mistreatment.

The crop of thoroughbred foals in the US in the last few years has been around 20,000, which is fairly low. A few years back it was around 35,0000. A thoroughbred live at most to about 35 years, but most live far shorter lives...no mistreatment is needed to cause that, not every person who dies at less than 115 years old was mistreated either.

The point I am making is that there will be a spread of ages at which horses dies and with foal crops of several 10s of thousands yearly, there will be numerous deaths of various ages. Those deaths will naturally be more likely when horses are subject to additional stresses.

.

No one is happy about their horse dying.

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#50
In reply to #7

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 2:54 PM

Horse racing is a business. And the horse is looked at as a potential money making asset. There isn't very much room for compassion more less empathy, unless it can turn a profit.

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#52
In reply to #50

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 2:59 PM

This is my point!

There is no beauty in torturing animals for a buck!

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 3:04 PM

There is no beauty in torturing animals for a buck!

some people think that cutting down a forest for a buck is also, as well as raising beef, pork, veal, mutton, mink. it happens.

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#63
In reply to #50

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 4:52 PM

I know people who own/raise/train racing thoroughbreds. There certainly is room for compassion and empathy.

Business models do not require compassion/empathy, but the people who chose horse racing as their life typically have enormous compassion for these animals. Many would choose horses ovet people if they had to choose.

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#69
In reply to #63

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 10:35 PM

What kind of horses do you have? When you have personal experienced in horse, and not just know people that are. Then if you're really envolved and you see the wide spectrum of the good and bad. But just known others who are, that is just makes your post an 'opinion'. Of which is true, unfortunately, there's a dark side, that no one wants to talk about.

Is there compassion from horsemen, Of course there are.

We raised Registered Arabians, as well as odds and ends... registered Quarter Horse (AQHA), Grades, Belgian, Percheron, Haflinger, Tennessee Walker, Morgan, various ponies, Welch, shetlands, even a few adopted mustangs. Was very active in 4H, Drill Team as well as bare foot horse pulls (non professional, even though there are some very competitive teamsters that literally would beat their horse dead).

Not that I'm saying .... yes, I actually am saying, when your in various horse projects you see a lot of different types. you have the good and bad people in a horse project for various reason, and to deny it doesn't exist, is pretty ridicules.

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#105
In reply to #69

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/09/2017 4:57 PM

When I was a kid, we raised and showed and sold Arabians and a couple quarter horses. My father later got heavily into thoroughbreds and racing.

.

You hare assigning a position to my comment that is not something I wrote or intended. I am not denying there are problems. I point this out in several comments.

.

If you need something 'ridicules' to fixate upon, check out the broad brush used by Amichen to attack all horse racers as inherentlh evil. Better still look at the irony of your use of 'ridicules' instead of 'ridiculous.

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#107
In reply to #105

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/10/2017 8:38 AM

You hare assigning a position to my comment that is not something I wrote or intended. I am not denying there are problems. I point this out in several comments.

I don't believe I am, that is my assignment from my experience.

But I like to add, the 'horsemen' I did run into was very defensive when challenged... and what you call passion,... is more times than not,... really 'ego'... because they let their 'passion' make the decisions for them. Now you can say I assign that to you.

If you need something 'ridicules' to fixate upon, check out the broad brush used by Amichen to attack all horse racers as inherentlh evil. Better still look at the irony of your use of 'ridicules' instead of 'ridiculous.

Amichen is looking through life through a pin hole...

As far as the rest of your comment....Don't be so,... ridiculously defensive.

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#112
In reply to #107

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/10/2017 10:15 PM

Odd explanation, but not impossible. Perhaps you do have experience of aspects ot my experience more directly that I am aware. It would be odd if you are one of the people to whom I was originally referring.

Otherwise, I think we will have to chalk your comments about my experience/intentions/mode of interaction as some form of assumption which I am unwilling to lable as 'experience' on your part. Either that, or we aren't talking about the same thing.

Oh well.

The disparaging remarks about the South followed by supposed support from Orego was and still is absurd and distasteful, Those comments are beneath you.

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#114
In reply to #112

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/10/2017 11:36 PM

Feel better?... You seem to talk, just to hear yourself.

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#115
In reply to #114

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/11/2017 4:15 PM

I'm typing. It is pretty quiet, not much to hear.

You seem to comment, just to have somewhere to put all your various and ancillary guesses at the motivations of others.

For what it's worth, I urge you to continue. Your guesses aren't great at present, but perhaps you might improve with practice. Maybe, one day the motivations you dream up for others might merit being called something of more consequence than 'guesses'.

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#118
In reply to #115

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/12/2017 8:57 AM

Again, you're being ridiculous

It's called a metaphor.

met·a·phor ˈmedəˌfôr,ˈmedəˌfər/ noun

  1. a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable. "“I had fallen through a trapdoor of depression,” said Mark, who was fond of theatrical metaphors"
    synonyms:figure of speech, image, trope, analogy, comparison, symbol, word painting/picture "the profusion of metaphors in her everyday speech has gotten pretty tiresome"
    • a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract. "the amounts of money being lost by the company were enough to make it a metaphor for an industry that was teetering"
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#3

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/01/2017 11:16 PM

These posts are examples of the polarity that infects so much of our thoughts. We pull out marginal information to justify our conclusions. Nobody bets on cows though people and funds may invest in them. Dog food may contain horsemeat but most doesn't. People eat horsemeat in many countries. So what? Let's try to see why people say what they do, rather than insulting them. We'll learn more and fight less. If anyone thinks that's bad, I'd like to know why.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 1:00 AM

You said nothing....Do you have a point to make?

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#110
In reply to #4

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/10/2017 9:09 PM

..." Let's try to see why people say what they do, rather than insulting them. "...

...or just voting them off topic?

Haha, that's what I thought......I think you're beating a dead horse here....Oh no you did'nt

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#111
In reply to #110

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/10/2017 9:48 PM

..." Let's try to see why people say what they do, rather than insulting them. "...

???

Interesting...I explained why... to be continued...

...or just voting them off topic?

...continued and then get voted off topic...

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#24
In reply to #3

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 4:38 PM

I'll bite.

I think that's bad, and I let you know why.

Your statement injects the idea that being critical of an idea insults the person making the idea. If the idea is immature, not well thought out, and makes uninformed assumptions about malicious or calous attitudes of those they describe, then it is appropriate to express the need for their thought process become more mature, in this aspect at least.

You say 'we pull out marginal information'. This baseless assertion suggest 'marginal' better describes your analysis. It wouldn't be surprising if the 'insights' you describe for others are more of a reflection of your own character.

I encourage you to verify your assumptions before posting:

"...Nobody bets on cows..."

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#28
In reply to #24

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 4:47 PM

No wonder (intelligent life) from outer space (refuses ?) to formally contact us (?) ...

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#74
In reply to #28

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/04/2017 2:03 AM

Yeah I'm sure that's the reason....

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#95
In reply to #74

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/07/2017 4:12 PM

Until said aliens tell us directly, we'll never actually know, one way or the other, for sure...

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#97
In reply to #95

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horse

08/08/2017 3:22 AM

...yeah, but once they 'tell us directly', we'll have it nailed down tight.

Good thing we know that all aliens are incapable of contriving or uttering untruths. I mean, that came from a Grey, and as you know they can't lie, so it must be true.

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#98
In reply to #97

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horse

08/08/2017 11:49 AM

Have ''they'' told you this, personally ?...

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#102
In reply to #98

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horse

08/09/2017 2:08 AM

Yes, they trade me diamonds for my dirty socks....

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#104
In reply to #102

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horse

08/09/2017 12:23 PM

If you weren't an (Anonymous Poster), then I would not withhold a GA for your post #102 ...

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#106
In reply to #104

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horse

08/09/2017 5:38 PM

I'll get my friends to turn you into a racehorse, they can do that you know!!! Now relinquish that GA(whatever that is) or face the consequences...

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#109
In reply to #106

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horse

08/10/2017 12:05 PM

...

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#55
In reply to #3

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 3:12 PM

I understand, people are taking a very myopic view of a situation to support their agenda or platform...

but racing is and always has been a 'sport'.

Its just now-a-days, people are raised in a clinical environment, they have no idea what's goes on outside their bubble, that actually supports their environment. And don't have a clue what your referring to.

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#5

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 8:58 AM

Unfortunately there isn't an easy solution to this.

Do you outlaw horse racing and gambling? Well there is always going to be a black market for illicit goods and prohibited activities. I think there is a lot of evidence that regulation is better than prohibition. Regulation, especially for horse racing, isn't perfect or incorruptible, but I think we'd all rather have some legal oversight rather than an industry like this to existing in the shadows. There will always be an appetite for this type of pastime.

Do you make race horse owners rehabilitate injured horses? You simply can't. For a horse to make a full recovery from a leg injury, it would need to stay off of it for weeks or months. Not easy for a 1,500+ lb. animal that sleeps standing up. The horse would basically need to be suspended in a harness and won't be able to train or race for months. If the owner wants that horse to race again, equine hydrotherapy is typically the only way for a horse to maintain muscle mass without stressing bones or damaged tissues. Unless this is a horse with Grade 1 potential, the horse no longer pays for its keep. The medical bills outweigh the profit.

Evolution: An argument could be made that horses have a major design flaw: fragile legs. For an animal that depends on them so much this is a vital handicap. The same reason horses are euthanized at race tracks are the reasons wild horses end up as wolf fodder.

Livestock as a business: What really separates a horse from a pig, cow, chicken, etc.? True, livestock are bred with the intention of providing food, but really it all boils down to financial pragmatism.

Personally, I think its tragic that a business like gambling thrives on the lives of race horses, but many others rely on animal lives as well. This discussion is really about ethical slaughter in whole, not simply about a race track.

Does every animal that no longer serves a purpose need to exist? The same question could be asked about humans.

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#18
In reply to #5

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 3:33 PM

Don't forget, a few stud fees from a good horse can more than pay for the horse's well-being.

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#32
In reply to #18

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 9:18 PM

...and he probably doesn't dislike the work.

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#35
In reply to #32

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 8:46 AM

yes

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#37
In reply to #32

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 8:49 AM

...until the mare kicks him in the "right" place (or "wrong" place), depending on point of view. I have never witnessed a mare being bred that did not resist, so is that animal cruelty to snub up a mare to a post, and turn the stud in on her? Or is just prudent animal husbandry?

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#117
In reply to #18

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/11/2017 8:19 PM

Then there's showbiz....

A talented horse could do well for himself....

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#30
In reply to #5

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 4:51 PM

I will add one other point: BLM seems to be more proficient in killing wild horses than are wolves...except BLM does not give a good damn which horse it kills, but the wolves only go for the weak, aged, or broken.

I am not a fan of wolves, not a fan particularly of wild horses, but I damn sure ain't no fan of BLM!

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#56
In reply to #5

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/03/2017 3:32 PM

one thing good, when you shell out 10's of thousands of dollars, just for stud fee. Like any athlete in a Professional Sport in this case, a horse. The Team, owner or investors want to recoup their money and invests in rehab to salvage their investment.

So, some good can come out of this.

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#6

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 9:17 AM

Perhaps a better plan might be to work with the rescue organizations. Perhaps rehabilitate the horses as therapy animals.

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#8

Re: Race tracks are not good for the horses

08/02/2017 1:06 PM

I don't think anyone wants to see an animal pushed to its limits to the point where it suffers an injury and has to be put down. Even the owners who have a stake in profiting from a horse's performance understand the economics of loss when a horse suffers a career and life-ending injury. (I'm sure they understand the economics way more that I do.)

Realistically, though, a percentage of horses will die every year, regardless of where they live, are treated, cared for etc.

I think a much larger problem with horses is what to do with wild horses. The wild horse and burro population continues to grow (the land they are on cannot sustain the population), and the federal government is running out of options on what to do with them. There have been annual roundups, but the number of people adopting wild horses and burros has dropped, so the feds are running out of places to put them. Slaughtering them is not (?) an option.

http://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/wild-horses-to-the-slaughter

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#10

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 1:40 PM

The Shakespeare festival seems like sweet torture to the audience.

In actual fact, most race horses love to run, and do enjoy to compete.

Yes, injuries occur, and while I do not agree with euthanizing every horse that pulls up lame, or with broken leg, I do agree they should not be left suffering. If the Veterinarian can relieve their pain, and maintain life, that should be the rule.

Yes, I agree that horses in general are not treated well at all as a class in this nation, and some actions are required to "re-balance" the scales. Maybe we need an owner's sweepstakes race, where the owner that wins takes ownership of the other owners to do with as he/she pleases. Seems fair. I am not talking horses, I am talking people, and they need to get off their collective laurels, and run the 16 furlong race to save their butt. I hear owners make good tiger food.

Seems fair to me...if there were no horse races (and it is a very long-standing tradition of high society going back into deep history), then there would be movies like Secretariat! That would be a shame, and a loss. Animal athleticism is a wonder to behold, and is glorious and beautiful, until someone (notice I did not say something) gets hurt.

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#19
In reply to #10

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 4:03 PM

"...then there would be (no?) movies like Secretariat! That would be a shame, and a loss...."

I get the rest of your comment, but part quoted above....well, I'm not sure that logic works out:

Roots was also a good movie. Amistad, too.

Letters from Iwo Jima was a great movie. So was Schindler's List.

A lot of people liked Titanic.

.

I like Secretariat! and horse racing. I don't think the other events central the the themes of the movies above could possibly be justified by those movies, no matter how good those movies might be.

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#12

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 1:50 PM

By spending money at race tracks we not only engross the pockets of the torturers of these magnificent animals,

That word doesn't seem to fit here.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 3:18 PM

Sounds like someone is obsessing on the pockets of the horse owners. They need to look into what it takes to even have a horse, much less a wide string of race horses, the employees, and the jockeys. I am willing to wager that >99% of race horse owners do give a care about people, and about the horses, and probably a great deal more than the hearts that bleed. That still does not mean I am in favor of any form of maltreatment of any animal whatsoever.

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#13

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 2:57 PM

If its any consolation to the OP, I was involved in a summer research program at Purdue University and one of my fellow students conducted her research on the structural mechanics of horse leg bones (I'm sure the actual research title was much more intelligent than this). I remember this including fracture mechanisms and causes as they relate to racing.

So fear not, there are people out there who are quite concerned with the well being of race horses. And I would bet anything that this research was funded by people interested in continuing the sport.

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 3:19 PM

(I will divide this post into three posts.)

Part 1.

This post is not about if we should or should not eat meat. I know perfectly well that this is a necessity and/or a tradition. My point in this post, however, is related to the torturing of animals for ANY reason. It happens that this is the summer season in upstate New York and we have a race track that is visited by thousands of people for the six-week duration of the event, not as long as the Ludi that used to take place at the Circus Maximus in imperial Rome. Some ludi lasted for more than 50 days, but the character and idea of the Circus (in the Rome of the Emperors) is the same (more intense, though) as the races we have nowadays in our race tracks: they used to race with chariots instead of horses only, but the suffering and mistreatment of these animals is the same. (I do not want to bring here the Roman Coliseum where people (Christians) were devoured by tigers and lions in front of thousands of spectators.)

I brought the horse races to this post, as I mentioned earlier because this is the horse race season here. However, what I wanted to bring is the general behavior of humans respect to animals, and my main point is: we should not sponsor activities that inherently and purposely are designed to increase the bank account of people at the expense of suffering and torture to the animals. Let’s look at some cases:

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 3:27 PM

Part 2.

1. Why should I buy milk from the farmer that increases the milk production at his/her farm by taking away the newly born baby calf from the mother, so the milk intended to feed the baby ends up in a supermarket? More milk, more money, isn’t it? You should know that the cow cries at “sotto voce” for many days for her baby; if you have seen such a spectacle you well know how sad is this. The baby calf, most probably, ends up in your plate of veal parmigiana! Think if you would accept something like this happening to a human mother.

2. Why should I enrich the pig farmer who keeps all the farm pigs, each one, in small cages FOR THE WHOLE LIFE OF THE ANIMAL! Less movement, more meat, so more money! Isn’t it?

3. The same as item 2 above for chickens, goats, geese (oh, my dear French farmer, your foie gras distills unprecedented suffering, it does not matter how good it is), turkeys, sheep, and other animals.

4. Why should I go to the circus with my family to watch dancing elephants and tigers? These elephants, tigers, lions of these modern day circuses are enslaved (yes, enslaved and tortured!) for their entire life. How could I explain to my child this spectacle? Who told you that elephants are dancers? There is one circus that some years ago their owners realized that it is immoral to use animals to entertain people in a circus by forcing them to dance and sing and to balance on pedestals on top of a cord. The owner decided to change and created the marvelous Cirque du Soleil in Montreal. No animals, no suffering, no torture; simply the Cirque du Soleil is a divine entertainment! Take your kids to see it, when you can.

Credit: https://www.pinterest.com/toni596/animal-abuse/?lp=true

Two large cats in cramped cage at Ringling Bros. Credit: http://www.lcanimal.org/index.php/campaigns/animals-in-entertainment/circuses

There is good news, though. On May 20, 2017, the so-called “The Greatest Show on Earth”, the Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus, ended forever the show. After 146 years torturing animals decided that it is time for a change in morality. Read this article and rejoice: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/05/wildlife-watch-ringling-circus-animal-welfare-photography/

I really hope horse races will come to their senses and stop the charade.

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#17
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Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 3:28 PM

Part 3.

1. The same as item 4, but with zoos. Should I spend money taking the family to a zoo? How can I explain to my children the reason these animals have such a sad face? Wild animals are supposed to roam the forest and prairies, not to spend their whole life standing on concrete floors.

2. Finally, how can I sponsor horse races? If this is acceptable, shouldn’t I sponsor also dog fighting rings?

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#21
In reply to #17

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 4:13 PM

It's probably against my best judgement, but I'll bite.

It seems like quite a stretch to compare dog fighting and horse racing. While injuries are an unfortunate side effect of racing, its not the main goal, as in a fight. In fact, I would wager (racing pun, anyone?) that everyone involved in a horse race hopes that injuries don't occur (except maybe some of the losing gamblers).

P.S. Don't take offense, as I am playing devil's advocate to an extent here. I personally don't care for the sport of horse racing. Not very exciting if you're not betting, and a big money pit if you are.

P.P.S. I also considered commenting on your animal suffrage/food statements, but that's probably better left to a new blog.

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#26
In reply to #21

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 4:45 PM

Animal suffrage? Are they going to train horses to vote now?

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#29
In reply to #26

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 4:50 PM

Whoops, bad word choice there.

But now that I think about it...

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#31
In reply to #17

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 9:16 PM

Amichelen, you have a dog pictured as your icon. Is this animal your charge?

Have you been so cruel as to remove its reproductive capability?

Do you restrict the animal's freedom such that it cannot roam free into the wilderness whenever it pleases?

Do you think your dog would be happier as a wild dog than in the comfort of your care?

What gives you the right to decide this dog will not live out a 'natural' life, forged between its own will and the trials of nature?

Have you considered using your own freedom to shed the hinderances of society? Are you willing to experience your 'natural' life without the interference of the comforts of the work of others? Will you abandon the shelter you did not construct independently? Will you eschew prepared food and only eat what you catch/harvest/cook? Is this the last time we see your comments on the internet?

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#36
In reply to #31

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 8:47 AM

Do you really expect to hear the answers to those questions? Good questions, nevertheless. Nice job!

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#40
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Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 9:16 AM

Dear truth is not a compromise,

My dog, Toby, who passed away some years ago, was the happiest creature you can imagine. He was the owner of the house! He was fed the best food and given the best comfort. He developed cancer of the liver at an early age (9 yeas old). The first veterinary doctor we saw (who preferred to kill animals instead of healing them) bluntly and with a smile in his face told me "we have to put the dog to sleep" (I am sure he was thinking in the $500 to $750 he would make by killing Toby!). I insulted him and went to see a real vet. He healed Toby after several interventions and after we spent several thousands of dollars because we wanted to keep Toby. I do not want to make statements that I can't prove, but I bet that there are many people who would had put Toby to sleep and save a lot of money. They would take the saved money to spend in a race track, I am sure!

We did not remove Toby's reproductive capabilities. In fact, he had a beautiful "girlfriend" in the neighborhood!

Domesticated dogs (from thousands of years) do not like to live in the wilderness. They would be eaten by bigger wild animals. So, yes, Toby was happier living at home rather than in the wilderness!

Your last paragraph does not make any intelligent sense! Humans have come a long way from the time we use to live in caves. I prefer to live in Beacon Hill or in Paris rather than is the forest!

Now you ask if I am "willing" to experience my "natural life" (whatever this means!) and my answer is: no. There is no need to do this. However, if you ask if the circumstances of my life forces me to live in the wilderness, then my answer is: yes! Robinson Crusoe (Alexander Selkirk) comes to mind.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 9:28 AM

I can agree with the point we need to take the best care we can of our animals.

but there are time when I would put an animal down rather than let them suffer, and it should only cost about $50.00

Having animals spayed and neutered would end the county shelters from having to put them down.

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#60
In reply to #40

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 4:07 PM

"...They would have saved money to spend at the race track, I am sure..."

.

It wouldn't hurt to allow for a little uncertainty in your view of the attitudes and opinions you assign to others. While there are some notable exceptions, much of the harm done in the world is not out of malice. Most people see themselves as basically good. If you desire to actually affect meaningful change, and not just rage against an opponent of conveniently invented characteristics, a little empathy could go a long way.

.

By the way, thank you for taking the time to respond and genuinely engage.

.

I'm glad that you understand dogs are not wolves, that dogs are domesticated. Dogs are adapted to be companions and assistants for humans. There are people who mistreat dogs, which is unquestionably wrong. But that fact alone does not mean that the practice of raising dogs as house pets or working dogs or sports dogs (this is not to be misconstrued as being used for dog fights) should be abandoned.

.

Horses are also adapted to serve various purposes. With the possible exception of the very small population of Przewalski's horses, horses are domesticated animals. Wild mustangs, for example, are decendants of domesticated horses. Domesticated animals have genetic changes that bring adaptation to living in captivity. Horses have been bred for various tasks. Thoroughbreds have been selectively bred to race. It is in their blood. Yes, some people mistreat horses, just as some people mistreat dogs. No that does not mean we should call for an end to horse racing, nor an end to thoroughbreds.

.

Concerning zoos: you seem to be ignoring the benefits provided by zoos. One of the greatest benefits is PR money spent to preserve habitat for wild animals. People more easily develop attachments to things they can see first hand (I don't have any studies atm to support thus assertion, but I bet I can find some if anyone really doubts it). By having exotic animals on display, it is easier for people to develop compassion for the fate of wilderness in general. Zoos also provide a way for those who are already curious to see exotic animals without the disruptive and destructive acts of groups treking into the wilderness to view such creatures. There are several other benefits to zoos. Remember Przewalski's horse from above?... The only extant nondomesticated strain of horse in the wild, or otherwise? Their existance today and presence in the wild can be attributed to preservation and reintroduction by the Zoological Society of London and other. Many more examples of similar species preservation exist. Zoos are not the enemies to your values that someone has painted them as. Are there zoos that need to improve? Of course. That does not mean the average zoo is owned or staffed by sadists just out to torture animals and make a buck.

.

I encourage you to narrow your brush.

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 4:13 PM

Thank you very much!

I am glad to hear very good statements from you and the forum.

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#20

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 4:13 PM

On the one hand, human track coaches are people that train other people to run (jump, hurdle, vault, etc.) ''better'' than they could (probably...) train themselves to run, etc....

A ''good'' human track coach is one who gets their trainee runners to realize more of their human (running) potential, without actually working them into directly suffering trainning-related deaths... Even the losers survive to die of non-running related deaths...

On the other hand, it seems that horse (trainers?...) over-work their horses past the point of (constructive exercise), to where only the surviving trainees compete in standard horse racing formats, and get labelled as ''good'' trainers if their horse-trainees happen to win...

Solution: write computer game(s) to it do all horse breeding, training, racing, betting, and sales, only through (hi-res, etc.) computer hardware and software...(?)

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 4:23 PM

Human jumpers, vault and hurdle athletes can speak and can communicate to the trainer and they have the right and ability to say: STOP! I am not doing this!!

and the trainer will oblige.

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#23
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Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 4:29 PM

Maybe he is suggesting that horse trainer's need better instruction on how to train humanely.

This update will be available in Thoroughbred: Virtual Horse Racing Version 2.0

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#25
In reply to #23

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 4:38 PM

Pre-xactly, ex-cisely!, as we used to say a loooooong time ago...

GA Not Off Topic vote from me !...

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#27
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Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/02/2017 4:46 PM

Most of the people actually training horses, know when a horse needs a break, or is not responding well to the training, and needs other care, time out, etc. It is the hard-headed sonsabitches I don't like that worry me.

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#79
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Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/04/2017 7:21 AM

There are so many techniques to train a horse... about 20 years ago, I read the book 'The Horse Whisperer', This really opened the eyes of not only horse owners, but also pet owners.

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#80
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Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/04/2017 11:10 AM

You beat me to it!

I would consider Mr. Brannaman's work as a great counterargument to the earlier statement that horses can't "voice" their opinions on when a training technique isn't working.

The signs are there for people who know how to communicate more effectively with the animals. But like James Stewart said, "It's the hard-headed SOBs" who are the problem.

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#33

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 8:07 AM

In my older years, I totally agree with the "Zoo" comment.

I was thinking just the other day how we try and force animals to re-produce in captivity, and wonder why they have a hard time. Maybe animals can really sense a

lack of purpose in their caged surroundings, with no varying stimulation day to day.

Just like having a boring mundane job.

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#42
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Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 9:29 AM

I can't agree more with you!

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#48
In reply to #33

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 2:51 PM

"...just like having a boring mundane job...."

.

Are fertility problems more prevalent among those with 'a boring mundane job'? If you have data on this, it would be interesting. My evidence is just anecdotal, but it seems like fertility is higher among those with more mundane jobs....but perhaps what I deem mundane might be thrilling to someone else.

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#57
In reply to #48

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 3:51 PM

No. They just get started sooner. LOL!

My grandparents were raising family before television, but did have a radio that worked off windmill wind-charger, on occasion. In those days, the radio itself was catch as catch can.

They had eleven children together. I have one daughter. Grew up watching TV. Go figure.

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#34

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 8:31 AM

Wow, for an engineering forum, this whole blog is off-topic. Frankly I'm let down that CR4 even posted any of this. Shame on the moderator. This belongs on a CNN or PETA website, not CR4.

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#38
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Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 8:56 AM

Admin: Modified Post: Vulgar/Rude/Improper Behavior: This post was deleted because it did not adhere to the behavioral policies of the site. Please review Section 14 of the CR4 Site FAQ and the Rules of Conduct.

Who knows? Maybe we can engineer better methods of captive breeding for endangered species if we concentrate on that.

Another side-topic: How to absolutely stop animal poachers dead (I mean graveyard dead) in their damn tracks, and to get them every time before they shoot a rhinoceros, a hippo, or an elephant, or even a lion or tiger.

In some countries, they actively hunt the poachers, and shoot them on sight.

I say make booby-traps that are extremely selective about when and what sets them off. In other words, elephants can trample all over the trap without detonation, but poachers instantly set it off if they move even a blade of grass. It requires artificial intelligence built into the trap. Al Queda probably could offer some advices, but they specialize in road-side bombs with various trigger mechanisms including cell phones.

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#43
In reply to #38

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 9:35 AM

Oh, my friend! You hit a big topic of mine. Poachers should be subjected, as you mention, to the same treatment as they treat the poached animals.

Drones can help!

This would be a topic for later on.

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#44
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Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 10:05 AM

I agree, armed drones. see if they still like the game when they are the hunted.

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#46
In reply to #34

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 2:05 PM

I won't go as far as to claim fascism, but I have to agree with James Stewart on this one.

I think it can (occasionally) be a good practice for engineers to weigh in on sociopolitical topics like this because we have been trained to think critically and look at solutions objectively.

Plus, like James said, we can't just talk about beam stress analysis all the time.

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/03/2017 2:42 PM

I agree with you!

I have always thought that the person who will find a cure for all cancers will be an engineer, because, as you say, we were trained to think logically, "out of the box"

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#81
In reply to #47

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/04/2017 12:09 PM

Very broadly speaking, most of the medical advances come from the results of studying possible relationships between physiology and chemistry, as done by medical-related researchers, whether by intention, or by accident...

Medical bureacracies don't have the money let their researchers amble around their labs, experimenting on what ever they feel like, at that moment...

Engineers tend to be brought in to help develop medical device design, after preliminary (physio-biological-chemical) research...

We, as engineers, tend to be educated to think within a ''framework/box'' of (logic) and usually get (chastised) for trying to think (outside) it, especially if not specifically asked/told to do so...

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#72
In reply to #34

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/04/2017 12:23 AM

I agree with you.

This statement, "You as a moderator should know better than anyone to not turn this into ugly politics" was totally uncalled for and inappropriate. Not a surprise considering the author.

The blog should not have allowed comments.

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#75
In reply to #34

Re: Race Tracks Are Not Good For The Horses

08/04/2017 2:22 AM

Well this could have been posted in the break room more appropriately...but this is a blog and not part of the main forum...so

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