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Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

Posted January 04, 2018 11:29 AM by HUSH

The E-4 aircraft is one of the most unique airplanes in the world. It serves in the U.S. Air Force's National Emergency Airborne Command Post, based at Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. Translated from military jargon to English, that means the plane's primary role is to serve as the decision nerve center in the event ground stations are compromised following a nuclear attack.

These four planes are Boeing 747-200 models that were initially manufactured in the 1970s, in a program dubbed Nightwatch. Eventual technology improvements led to the E-4B. The E-4B is a dedicated, advanced airborne communications platform and is also hardened against the potential effects of an electromagnetic pulse that accompanies a nuclear blast. All aircraft wiring and electronics are radiation shielded, as is the aircraft's cabin and cockpit. The film shield that is typically found on the inside of a microwave door is outfitted on the cockpit windows and analog controls are favored over electronic, as they are less likely to be corrupted by an EMP. The plane also features direct fire countermeasures, likely some combination of thermal anti-missile flares, chaff and infrared missile jammers.

Since this plane can survive a nearby nuclear blast and then organize a retaliatory strike, the plane is simply massive and extremely well-engineered. The plane is divided into three levels, with the top level dedicated to the cockpit and rest areas for the flight crew. The middle level contains all the primary business: a conference room, briefing room, work stations for 29 staffers, communications center and staff R&R areas. Meanwhile the lowest level features the executive lounge, galley, extra accommodations and gear storage. If fuel is resupplied mid-flight, the E-4 can fly for over a week without touching down. The plane can accommodate over 110 people if needed and has the largest minimum crew in the USAF fleet at 48.

In a true nuclear attack, the U.S President would use this plane as an airborne command center along with senior military officials. The plane can connect with virtually every communication system worldwide and even has a 5-mile-long trailing wire antenna to communicate with ballistic missile submarines. During the Cold War, it was standard practice to have one E-4 on alert at all times and located at Andrews Air Force base in Maryland, spitting distance from Washington D.C.

(Click here or the illustration at right for an enlargeable version.)

The E-4 also serves in auxiliary missions. For every overseas trip the President makes on Air Force One, an E-4 accompanies but lands at a different airport. In case of emergency or if Air Force One is grounded, the E-4 can then serve as Air Force One. Other military officials, such as the Secretary of Defense, use the E-4 as their primary international travel method. The aircraft has also served as mobile command posts for FEMA personnel after natural disasters.

In June 2017 a tornado at Offutt AFB damaged two of the planes, rendering them unusable until repaired. Prior to this, there had already been considerable discussion regarding the future of the E-4, with the fleet originally set for retirement in 2009. Military officials felt many of the executive and communications roles carried out by the E-4s, the Air Force One models (Boeing VC-25s) and the E-8 surveillance planes could be consolidated into one new, cheaper aircraft. Eventually these plans were scrapped.

Last month the Air Force announced it would exercise an $80 million contract option for additional upkeep and upgrades to the E-4 fleet, presumably to fix the damaged planes and keep them in service for the foreseeable future. However, aircraft frame fatigue is expected to occur around 2039, and considering the long development cycles of military hardware, officials and aerospace engineers need to presently start scratching their heads on the E-4's replacement. According to The War Zone blog, there are plans to make the successor aircraft to the E-4, the C-32 (the model of plane for Air Force Two) and the E-6 (a plane with a similar but more marginalized role as the E-4) of the same platform.

The threat of all-out nuclear war has subsided since the E-4 was introduced, but there remain nuclear threats in the world today, meaning the 'doomsday planes' still have an important role to fill.

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#1

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/04/2018 12:18 PM

Let's hope we never have to use it. Nuclear weapons have prevented another world war through the concept of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD). Unfortunately some players today don't understand that concept.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/05/2018 2:47 PM

We've seen versions of MAD fail before. For example, the decades of interlocking Mutual Defense Pacts in Europe in the late 1900's and early 1910's was supposed to be a deterrent to war, as any nation that struck another nation in anger would surely be crushed by the treaty-bound allies, there would be no 'profit' to war, only loss.

Then Gavrilo Princip decided to assassinate Archduke Ferdinand, and all hell broke loose.

The reach and threat of nuclear weapons has formed another delicate balance, and it may only be a matter of time before another Gavrilo Princip shows up to ruin EVERYONE'S day again.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/05/2018 3:28 PM

You could be right. Those Naked Apes are, unfortunately, too clever for their own good and will one day do themselves in. With competitiveness in the equation, we are more and more unsafe as "What we can do" further exceeds "What we should do".

Maybe it's a universal phenomenon that intelligent species destroy themselves before advancing enough to achieve interstellar travel, and that is why we haven't been visited by ETs.

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#10
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/08/2018 8:51 AM

We might stand a better chance of surviving if we quit letting these "Alpha Male Gorillas" set policies where they get to steal all the bananas, and instead put scholars, philosophers, artists, and engineers in charge of policy, then we'd be able to use the fairly collected tax money (remember, we'd have people with brains AND compassion in charge of setting tax policy) to maintain our infrastructure and spur industry to reach for the stars.

(Or at least they could design and build a giant, floating stone head we could ride in as we convince the "Alpha Male Gorillas" to kill each other off.) (If you miss the reference, go google "Zardoz".)

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#15
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/09/2018 2:12 PM

Nah, there is only so much compassion in the world, and we own better than our share of it here in the good old U.S.A.

That is where despots everywhere are clamoring for more stuff.

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#21
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/09/2018 3:55 PM

"there is only so much compassion in the world,"

That you can even THINK such a thing makes me weep. Did He set a limit on how much compassion He could give when he was hanging from the Cross between two thieves? He was there to forgive the men who gambled for His cloak, for the man who thrust the spear into His side. How can we follow His example without striving to be as compassionate as Him?

Or, to borrow the words of a Republican, "...With malice towards none, with charity for all..."

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#23
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/09/2018 4:39 PM

OH I totally get the idea of a Savior with compassion for all, but I am also being wise when I realize that mankind has not perfected nor brought much compassion to bear of late.

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#25
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/10/2018 9:05 AM

Which is why we need to strive to be even MORE compassionate.

If you boil all this down to its simplest terms, we're dealing with a battle of Love vs Hate.

Love seeks to unify us, to improve the lot of all, starting with those who need the most help.

Hate seeks too divide us into countless little camps of "Us against Them." Hate seeks to destroy us all, starting with the easiest prey, those who need help.

I'm not sure if you heard of this news article, but a few weeks ago, the story broke about a trio of men who vandalized the outside of a Mosque. One of the men was arrested and convicted, and at the trial he showed remorse and contrition. He could not afford to pay the fine the court had levied against him and faced additional jail time, but the congregation who he attacked pulled together and raised the money to pay the fine for him. That was a clear example that disproves the "all Muslims are hateful terrorists" stereotype that is being pushed by the "Right Wing."(1) All people, regardless of nationality, creed, or skin tone(2), have the capacity for Love or Hate, and while taking the route of Love may open us up to be hurt, it is the only way to stop Hate. Meeting Hate with more Hate just perpetuates the cycle(3).

Notes:

  1. Again, not all Conservatives believe this stereotype, but prominent persons within the party, such as Rush Limbough, promote ideas like this, and through their platforms, they make the claim to speak for ALL Conservatives, and when the people he claims to represent don't speak up and say they disagree, then it creates the appearance that they DO share the "values' espoused by the 'demagogue.'
  2. Dividing humans by 'race' is just another tactic to make it easier to hate the 'others/outsiders'
  3. It's like the 'Cycle of Abuse.' The man who was beaten as a child by his father in turn beats his own son. They may rationalize it as "Beating kids dosen't mess them up. I was beaten as a kid and I turned out fine; that's why I beat my own kids." Or they may just lash out at their kids out of instinct, because that's the only way they've been shown how to raise kids. But it only takes one person in the chain to say "You know, this doesn't seem right. I am *NOT* going to use physical punishment on my kids like my father did to me," to break the cycle, one person choosing Love ends a generations-long chain of Hate.
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#27
In reply to #25

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/10/2018 4:15 PM

Trust me, if rocket man launches about one more missile, we may be obliged to show him the ultimate love, megatons of love. Tough love is better than no love at all.

This little dic-tator has no need of compassion. He needs for Big Daddy China to reel him in, put him over their knee, and give him a thrashing he will not forget. He is like a spoiled kid at Wal-Mart, that annoys everyone, and the store manager can't touch him, for fear of a nuclear law suit. It is the mother's job (if she is there), to reel this kid in, and get him under control by whatever means comes to hand, short of leaving a permanent record, or full-on choking the life.

Love your fellow civilized people, Americans too, even especially them. Don't hate anyone, but don't be anyone's door mat.

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#30
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 11:52 AM

...and instead put scholars, philosophers, artists, and engineers in charge of policy...

In my opinion is that the problem I see is you'd end up getting the 'Neville Chamberlain' effect of appeasement policies.

And compassion is not the word one would use.

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#34
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 1:34 PM

I would not send a scholar, philosopher, artist, or engineer to negotiate with a Viking king intent on raiding my country.

You need someone who knows the art of the deal, and also expects full-on treachery.

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#46
In reply to #34

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 3:51 PM

Who better to know what evils lurk in a man's heart than the Philosopher who has studied Man's history through the ages.

Only a fool walks into a deal without expecting treachery.

And I never said Defense would be neglected, just that the shield-bangers would not be the one's setting policy. They are still needed and respected as bodyguards.

As to negotiating with a Viking King...

Philosopher: "This clan attacked out settlement last month after the negotiations? Then we will respond properly."

Scholar: "Orders to the fleet: cannons on the top deck will load chain shot, cannons on the lower decks load solid ball. Once we are within range of the harbor, I want to see every Viking mast chopped in two, and every hull holed at the waterline. Warships, fishing boats, longboats, if it floats and can carry a man I want it rendered useless."

Artist: "But spare the smallest boat they have; that will be the one the Viking chief will use when he comes to US to handle this round on negotiations. Yes, that will present the proper image of humility that we wish this ruffian to wear."

This is not a revenge scene, it is simply sending a message; "Remember that thing you did to us, Do Not Do It Again." You assume that being Compassionate means being 'weak,' but nice does not mean stupid. You'll notice that the offered scenario does not mention harming the townsfolk, only destroying property. And if they lack the manpower to repair the whole fleet at once, they must make a choice; repair the warships first and let the people go hungry, or repair the fishing boats first to feed the people and delay a return to pillaging. You see the Compassion there: Attack the repairable property instead of extinguishing lives, and give the opponent a choice between hurting themselves with more Hate, and focusing inward as they have to take a break from fighting.

A final note: if the Vikings are fixing the fishing boats first, and are having trouble with their food supply, the Compassionate thing to do would be to bring in food and supplies, "Humanitarian aid" at no charge to the vikings, "We see you are choosing a peaceful route for now, let us share our bounty with you and show the joys of peaceful trade."

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#48
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 3:55 PM

Just as often, it might the English King that deals treacherously with Ragnar.

I am just saying that in one certain country after years of starvation while the fearless leader just gets fatter, being vaporized might be a release.

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#40
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 2:57 PM

We have seen compassion fail more ... there is not one paint brush that is the answer to everything.

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#42
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 3:00 PM

that is why the State Department has not totally packed up and left the building on NK.

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#5
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/05/2018 6:28 PM

Yes! The, "my red button is bigger than your red button" mentality brings a whole new meaning to the word, "mad".

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#14
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/08/2018 9:30 PM

lyn, how could you say such a thing!!!!

After all Donald Duck himself is quoted as, saying about himself, that he was a stable genius.........not quite sure which stable he belongs to........certain not one that contains thoroughbreds..........Do the have stables for geriatric hacks that have fallen out of their trees???..........Lt. Cmdr. Queeg of the USA!!!!

Yes the mind boggles! "A stable genius.......with a big red button"

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#16
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/09/2018 3:32 PM

Our latest Lt. Cmdr. Queeg is a former TV show host.

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#18
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/09/2018 3:47 PM

"Our latest Lt. Cmdr. Queeg is a former TV show host."

So is Drew Carey, and Carey, unlike Drumpf, didn't come up with 'vanishing bone spurs' to avoid the draft, He served honorably in the marine Corps Reserve for six years.

Also, Carey's TV Show is still going strong, so he's a CURRENT TV show host.

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#20
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/09/2018 3:53 PM

Yes, but he does not have the beeg red button to pooosh.

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/09/2018 4:00 PM

He doesn't need a big button, he has a big wheel:

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#24
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/09/2018 4:41 PM

Oooooo.....now I am screed, can't even spiel scared.

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#19
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/09/2018 3:49 PM

Is Lt. Cmdr. Queeg related to Dr. Strangelove in some manner? By the way, where did that other 5 gallons of strawberry ice cream get off to?

Yippy, Kai Yay, MF's (my friends)! Let's blow something up! Just not in our own back yard this time.

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#17
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/09/2018 3:39 PM

Well, at least his big red button has a high probability of actually working if ever needed. WE, of course, pray we never actually have to press the big red button.

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#7
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/05/2018 9:30 PM

They understand it, but many are willing to die!

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#11
In reply to #7

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/08/2018 8:55 AM

I'm not one of those willing to die like that.

I want my cause of death to be "extreme old age.(1)"

Notes:

  1. The full description is a bit longer, however it is also inappropriate for a professional forum.
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#2

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/04/2018 1:51 PM

Big badda boom

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#6

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/05/2018 7:38 PM

In my best Mel Brooks' voice imitation: "MY schwartz is bigger than YOUR schwartz!"

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#8

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/07/2018 10:50 PM

And then history might
repeat itself ... Dr Strangelove!

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#9

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/08/2018 7:34 AM

E-4 and my all-weather umbrella - job done!

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#12

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/08/2018 1:51 PM

"in the event ground stations are compromised following a nuclear attack" Compromised? I like the way the military obliterates the English language.

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#13
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/08/2018 3:49 PM

They do that so they don't scare the troops.

"Compromised" sounds better than "Blown to bits." And besides, there are several ways a ground station can become "compromised following a nuclear attack":

  • Blown to bits
  • Electronics fried by EMP
  • Crew dead from heat/radiation
  • Crew "broke morale and routed" (aka "panicked and ran away")
  • Power feed to ground station severed
  • Captured by hostile forces
  • Crew defected to Opposing Force

All of these result in "Ground Station has been lost, may or may not be recoverable/salvageable." The word Compromised sums it up nicely, especially when you look at other uses of the word as an adjective: an undercover agent who has been Compromised has either defected or been discovered, and is no longer a usable asset.

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#26
In reply to #13

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/10/2018 3:45 PM

I was referring to their use of the language. "Compromise" means to reach an agreement short of aggression. They are nothing but aggression.

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/10/2018 4:22 PM

Compromise is such a weak word. If Johnny rips the seat out of his underpants, we might say they are "compromised", but we both know what it means, and so does Little Johnny.

One cannot negotiate with a terrorist dictator, and that is what we have in NK.

I still think whatever crap he can sling at the U.S. is nothing, but I am the last one willing to wager L.A., Seattle, Portland, or SF on it. Oh snap, BTW, their new ballistic model can hit the East Coast just as well.

We cannot play at "mutually assured destruction" with someone like this. We have to be right 100% of the time, we can knock whatever crap he throws at us right out of the sky, and do it relatively harmlessly, or it is still game on for the little thug.

I think there needs to be smart munitions with range of at least 100 miles, and encode his face into the software. Note: I did not say take the shot, yet. I think someone should however call S.W.A.T. and have them on hand for this guy.

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#33
In reply to #28

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 11:57 AM

"We cannot play at "mutually assured destruction" with someone like this. We have to be right 100% of the time, we can knock whatever crap he throws at us right out of the sky, and do it relatively harmlessly, or it is still game on for the little thug."

Since you are still looking at this as a case om military defense, let me ask you a question:

Do you know how many U.S. "Boomers" (ICBM-equipped nuclear subs) are located within quick-response firing range of NK? Do we have enough capability out there to glassify the northern half of the peninsula before their attack on Seattle reaches apogee?

Nor really a question, because i already know the answer; You don't know any of that, neither do I...

...neither does Kim, and the idea that his entire country could be destroyed almost before he even gets to launch all his missiles has GOT to be giving him restless nights. Kim may be crazy, but he's not stupid.

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#37
In reply to #33

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 1:49 PM

I would not bet on your last statement even using YOUR money.

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#49
In reply to #37

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 3:57 PM

If he WAS crazy AND stupid, he would have made an open act of aggression against South Korea that would have triggered mandatory US retaliation while letting China say, "You made this mess, Kim, YOU clean it up."

(The defense pacts between SK-US and NK-China only engage if the OTHER side attacks first. that's why NK trows out constant taunts, they want the US to throw the first punch so China has to swoop in and "protect" NK.)

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#51
In reply to #49

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 4:03 PM

When there's an apparent stalemate with tensions rising... there needs to waked them up in the face with a cold slap of reality to come back to the negotiating table.

And as childish as it first appears, was whose button was bigger.

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#53
In reply to #51

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/12/2018 8:50 AM

NK has been a political burr under EVERYONE'S saddle, with most world leaders holding the opinion of "Please don't let Kim do something stupid today." Not even China wants NK to get involved in an international incident; if the US or SK throws the first punch, then China has to go to war against both, and existing trade agreements tend to by the first casualty of war. China does NOT want to lose its highly lucrative trade with the US.

Now that I think of it, the huge, interconnected trade network between nations today is like the interlocking mutual defense pacts of Pre-WW1, and they may have been more instrumental than the nukes in preventing another global conflict. The breakdown of international trade that would happen from a major war would be devastating. Heh, the Merchants have made War unprofitable again. Too bad they made war PREPARATION highly profitable since WW2, but that's a rant for another time.

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/14/2018 11:03 AM

Why should the US or SK throw the first punch. The threat has been around since the 50's and nothing but posturing has happened. NK are the only one's to suffer, and it is NK forcing the issue - but have been ignored - apparently because they do not have nukes.

Provocation by NK, clearly and easily provable, by committing and act of war with a nuke - something they have said they will do.

Regretfully, US and SK, holding the moral high ground to avoid retaliation from China and Russia (and who else?) and assuming they are the immediate direct targets, will have to wait for the nuke to drop.

Alternatively they can let NK join the party and negotiate a better deal for them if they give up nukes. And since they don't have to give up nukes - they can wait until they get a better deal.

And the recent move to cooperate with SK (their sworn enemies) in the Olympic games suggests they would like to belong to the 'club' - on acceptable terms.

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/14/2018 9:58 PM

Have you not been envolved...

The US has been paying NK as well as giving NK aid on conditions they stop their nuclear development... US paid, and NK instead of abiding by their agreements in the condition, expanded their Nuclear Development.

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#56
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/15/2018 6:46 AM

I am only involved by virtue of headline propaganda. I know nothing more than what is fed to me by the media - which if designed to make me take sides - then I am with the side that actually promotes a movement to negotiate a worldwide peaceful settlement.

If that ultimately fails then the Doomsday Plane might be useful - and we can get back on topic.

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/15/2018 7:20 AM

Ones decision is only as good as the information provided is good.

I am only involved by virtue of headline propaganda.

So no...

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/15/2018 10:30 AM

I should rephrase my comment - I will be involved by the - fallout like it or not - if/when it comes - literally or metaphorically - and I feel somewhat helpless in shaping the outcome.

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#59
In reply to #58

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/15/2018 12:33 PM

and I feel somewhat helpless in shaping the outcome.

we all are... and it appears the only time one has power to control our destiny is at the voting booths in November. And even that is can be a gamble

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#29
In reply to #26

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 11:31 AM

The word 'Compromise' has gained new meanings over time.

It is best to be well-read. allow me to provide some insight to help you.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/compromise

Of note, refer to Noun (2) and Verb (5) and (6).

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#31
In reply to #29

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 11:53 AM

I believe that context is the very best means to establish the meaning of a word in today's fickle world. Of course there'll always be unfathomable words such as covfefe, and the speakers of those indecipherable bits of "stable genius."

One that comes to mind is, "As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don’t know we don’t know," spoken by a man who also "primed the pump" for the first time with this one.

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#35
In reply to #31

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 1:39 PM

At the time spoken, Defense Secretary under George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld.

The dangerous people are the people that assume they know when they do not know that they know nothing. They are deceiving themselves into operating in an veil of knowledge that is completely inadequate. They seek the Holy Grail, for example, without really knowing what it is, the power it possesses, or knowing how to protect the Holy Grail.

They simply do not know that they do not know, not only that, but they do not care that they do not know, or even project that others around them do not know, when in fact they do know, or know that no one knows.

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#38
In reply to #35

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 2:52 PM

The dangerous people are the people that assume they know when they do not know that they know nothing.

The book I recommend for this, as well as for business, negotiation, and a list of others where it can be applied to is "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu

Is so brutally straight forward to a point of being able to melt snowflakes.

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#41
In reply to #38

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 2:59 PM

Trump's Book: "The Art of the Deal" is akin to it.

Especially when it comes to warfare, one can never truly assess all the unknowns, but has to work to limit how much effect an unknown can play on a given battlefield.

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#47
In reply to #38

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 3:53 PM

I happen to enjoy that book, Sun Tzu was a true Philosopher when it came to dealing with adversity (and war is pretty much the ultimate in adversity).

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#50
In reply to #47

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 3:59 PM

I enjoyed how it can be applied to business. Almost like strategy of chess.

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#52
In reply to #50

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/12/2018 8:38 AM

Well, the core fundamentals (one side, lead by a human, versus another side, led by a human) haven't changed much, and it can all be handled rationally, scientifically.

Yes, even War is a Science. (YouTube link, with sound) (Warning: Bob Fosse content)

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#43
In reply to #35

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 3:00 PM

You just gave a precise description of your hero. Clueless and arrogant!

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#44
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 3:06 PM

Whose hero? Yours? I wish you would just stop that.

I was actually being conversational, pleasant, and non-aggressive.

I was also attempting to have a logical, informative discussion, on basically the fog of war, the fog of governing, etc. No one ever has a corner on all the variables, all of the truth, and all the influence to get their agendas to take effect.

What is your excuse?

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#45
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Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 3:26 PM

lyn, don't be so hard on yourself... you're not that clueless.

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#32
In reply to #26

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 11:56 AM

The term compromise is bad word to use, when negotiating the agreement has to be where Both/All sides walk away with an agreement where all sides think they won.

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#36
In reply to #32

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 1:44 PM

It is unfortunate that compromise has descended into this usage where if a compromise is reached, the immediate assumption is that "our side failed in the negotiations."

All throughout the History of the United States, compromise has played a huge role in gaining sufficient consensus in Congress and the Senate to allow the passage of key laws in our Constitutional Structure.

Those compromises were not political losses, they were Statesmen-like victories.

When two completely rigid sides attempt to negotiate an agreement, there has to be some give and take, and not through deception, as deception ends up being the undoing of the party that is not honest.

Both sides have to be totally honest what they are flexible on, and what is fundamentally retained in their position. In that environment, both sides can truly walk away with a "win-win". Really, in those rare instances, it is We The People who win.

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#39
In reply to #36

Re: Future of the 'Doomsday Planes'

01/11/2018 2:54 PM

See my post #38...

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