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MaSu on Machines, Meteors & Mozzies

MaSu on Machines, Meteors & Mozzies is an extension of the original An Engineer's Look at the Future of Energy blog with the addition of two extra themes.

MaSu on Machines continues with the original theme. It looks at any technology that has the potential to help satisfy our ever increasing requirement for energy in an environmentally friendly way, from renewable sources, while reducing our dependence on fossil fuels.

MaSu on Meteors looks at amateur astronomy from a novice's and engineer's point of view. It presents threads that discuss coming events and objects in the night sky that are worth spending the time to look at as well as the technology available to and used by amateur astronomers.

MaSu on Mozzies reports and discusses the on going construction of a 1:8 scale flying model of the de Havilland DH-98 Mosquito fighter/bomber from WWII.

You can use the links above to go to the blog's tables of contents where you will find links to threads on this blog. If you have any suggestions for a thread you can use this link to Send MaSu a Message.

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MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

Posted November 18, 2007 7:30 AM by masu

I was intending to update you on the status of the de Havilland Mosquito project this week but things are afoot in the sky and there is something I believe is worth looking at and discussing.

Comets are still somewhat of a mystery and in the past have been viewed with superstition and irrationally and erroneously labeled as, unlucky, bad omens, harbingers of doom, attacks on terrestrial beings by heavenly creatures as well as a host of other even more absurd names. They could be harbingers of doom if they were to impact the Earth, as happened to Jupiter in 1993 when comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 broke apart and eventually impacted the planet. It is also postulated that the Tunguska Event in 1908 may have been a comet that disintegrated in the atmosphere in a cataclysmic aerial explosion. The name comet has a somewhat obscure derivation as it came to English from Latin where it in turn came from Ancient Greek. It is believed that Aristotle was the first to use the word komētēs to describe what he referred to as a star with hair.

For the most part we have gotten over the superstition and while we have learnt much about comets they are still very much an unknown and mysterious object. It is believed that they originate from the Ort Cloud and after being disturbed make fleeting visits to the inner solar system on highly elliptical orbits with periods that vary between a few years and several millennia. Once a comet begins its dive towards the inner solar system the ever increasing intensity of the sunlight causes them to start heating up and as a result spew gas and debris from their surface. It is this gas and debris that forms what Aristotle describes as its hair. For some comets that have orbits that take them too close to the Sun their visit results in the disintegrating into a stream of debris. The gas and debris are then deflected by the solar wind forming the tails that point away from the Sun. As the gas is usually ionized it is often not affected by the solar wind in the same way as the debris and form separate tails. The animation on the right shows the gaseous tail in cyan and dust tail in grey. Another point worth noting is the directions of the tails, since it is the solar wind rather than the comet's motion that has the greatest effect on the tails they are always on the side that is away from the Sun.

Comets have orbits that are often affected by their close encounters with the planets as well as the jets of gas spewing from their surface making their orbits and reappearances difficult to accurately calculate and predict. They are also notoriously fragile and easily broken apart by tidal forces if they approach to close to the planets or Sun.

We will discuss comets in more detail in later threads but for the moment we will leave it there and get onto the real subject of this thread which is comet P17 Holmes. However, before we do so it's worth looking at the way you are likely to see dates and times represented in the links I have supplied. The most common format is yyyymmdd.tttt where yyyy is the year in numerical format, mm is the month in either numerical or name format, dd is the day of the month and tttt time represented as a decimal representation of the time normalized to 1. For example, 20071117.500 represents 12 noon on 17th November 2007.

Comet 17P was first observed on 6th November 1892 by Edwin Holmes from his observatory in London England. It took some time to calculate its orbit to any degree of accuracy partially due to its initial discovery being 5 months after perihelion and its perihelion distance of 2AU. AU stands for Astronomic Unit which is currently defined as 149,597,870,691 ± 30 metres but for all practical purposes it is the distance the Earth is from the Sun.

None the less after considerable work by the astronomers Heinrich Kreutz and George Mary Searle its orbit was calculated and its return in 1899 and 1906 was correctly predicted. Comet 17P turned out to be more mysterious than usual. On several occasions and for unknown reasons comet 17P suddenly and dramatically increased in brightness over very short periods of time. In fact it was only first noticed in 1892 after one of these flare ups

Comet 17P next visits to the inner solar system was predicted for 1913 but it was never seen and by 1947 it had been declared lost and unlikely to be ever seen again. However, with the advent of computers and software capable of calculating and predicting orbits it was once again located by Elizabeth Roemer on 16th July 1964 and has been observed on each subsequent visit.

Comet 17P is currently some 244.Gm from Earth and 377 Gm from the Sun and had a magnitude of 17 making it only visible to observers using larger telescopes. However, on the 23rd of October comet 17P had one of its flare ups increasing to a brightness of 2.5 in the space of a few hours and making it clearly visible to the naked eye. Nobody is certain of the actual mechanism that causes these flare ups, but a more than 600,000 fold increase in brightness would tend to indicate that something dramatic had happened.

Unfortunately my observation point makes observing comet 17P difficult as it only gets around 5° above the horizon and there is considerable light pollution in that direction. Since its latest flare up it has dramatically increased in size making it somewhat dimmer but it should still be clearly visible to observers in the northern hemisphere with the unaided eye provided you are away form the light pollution of the major cities. The animation and image below and on the right will give you an idea of where to look.

Comet 17P Holmes is an example of how the night sky is not the completely static and unchanging thing many believe it to be. It is always worth spending time whenever you have a few minutes to spare just looking at the night sky. You will not only become familiar with it but you will be astounded with how dynamic it can actually be. At least we no longer need to be worried about being placed under house arrest like Galileo Galilei or burnt at the steak like Giordano Bruno for telling others what we have seen in the night sky.

As usual I have included the links below that will give you further information on comet 17P Holmes. I would highly recommend visiting Gary Kronk's Cometography page as it has some interesting information about comet 17P Holmes.


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#1

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

11/19/2007 2:11 PM

It has been rather clouded over of late where I am but now I know where to look I might just remember and who knows I could train the telescope on the spot one day when it is a bit clearer. Been so lousy here near Cambridge city, UK, lately that I have almost lost all but the last sliver of interest. I am on the brink of selling my refractor and pumping the money back into my other active hobby. Shame but so it goes.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

11/20/2007 12:58 AM
  • Been so lousy here near Cambridge city, UK, lately that I have almost lost all but the last sliver of interest. I am on the brink of selling my refractor and pumping the money back into my other active hobby. Shame but so it goes.

I know exactly how you feel. Australia is in the midst of what scientists now believe to be the worst drought in the last 1,000 years. So, you can guess what happened the minute I got a telescope? Yes, it started to rain, but it wasn't the sort of drought breaking rain it flooded several rural communities and large tracts of land then stopped raining and went back to the drought conditions within a week. From what I can see any time I plan in advance to get the telescope out it almost certainly means rain. Perhaps I should schedule using the telescope on a more regular basis in order to break the drought. Knowing my luck, if I did we would probably result in a tropical cyclone that flattened Sydney.

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#3

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/02/2007 1:48 PM

I have now had several clear(ish) days and tried to find 17P but to no avail.

I know its coma is supposed to be big now but I cannot find any info on its decreasing brightness. At upper ideal circumstances I should be able to see down to 12 but realistically I think 9 is more agreeable expecially if you are trying to "find" it. I think with the climate as it has been I could expect a comfortable 7 or 8 which is meager for the time of year. How have you been doing?

Have you got any brightness over period info somewhere?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/03/2007 12:55 AM

Hi case491,

I don't have any hard data like a chart or table but there a stack of dated images on the Wikipedia Comet 17P Holmes page that will give you some idea what to look for. The image below was taken from San Francisco on 1-December which makes it no more than 48 hours old. I don't know how or what was used to take the photograph but the cirrus cloud in the image would tend to indicate that it was still pretty bright.

Unfortunately Sydney is too far south for it to be high enough above the northern horizon to have any real chance of seeing it. I did have a go but the horizon in that direction is about 2° above the true horizon and heavily polluted with light and crap from the usual pollution sources to have any chance of spotting it.

Blurry objects like this can often be difficult to locate as there is no defined edge but rather a gentle increase in the light. They will often disappear completely if you try and look at them through a telescope and I suspect the image in the photo was taken with an exposure that took a couple of minutes to get and without the use of any great deal of magnification

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/03/2007 4:34 PM

I just looked in detail at that picture and concluded that it has been taken through a telescope with a colour ccd or digital camera on it. It has either been done on a short shutter speed or with proper tracking as there is no indication in the pixelation that shows any trailing of any of the stars.

Good shot in other words.

There is nothing in that region I can see after dark that looks that clear, maybe I have too much interference or I am mistaking a smallish cloud for something else like a galaxy or something. Will keep on looking, it should be there somewhere

I'll be back and let you know.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/03/2007 4:59 PM

Hi Masu,

Just found it through my binoculars.

Telescope was slightly out so I missed the spot by a small amount but as I cannot see the damn thing with my bare eyes here, it was not easy to locate. Binoculars found it almost instantly. Another piece of hard evidence that binoculars are invaluable even if you have a good telescope. Can I blame the clouds?

It appears to be somewhat closer to Mirfak but defenitely on its way to Algol. Just have to know where to look, which I didn't.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/04/2007 4:07 AM

Hi case491,

Great, I'm glad you managed to find it.

I just had a really close look at the image and expanded it to about 5 pixels cm-1 and there seems to be a very small amount of smudging along an axis that runs from the bottom left to upper right corner. It definitely looks like it was taken with a stationary telescope over a few seconds rather than a stacked image or other imaging trick.

A couple of months back Meade announced that they would be discontinuing the production of their Deep Sky Imaging unit as the had released the new DSI 2 which had a higher pixel count. They did, however, drop the price of the older DSI units that were already made by 67% and you cant pass up a discount like that. It arrived a month or so ago but I a still trying to get the hang of driving the darn thing. It's not like a normal CCD unit that you point and click. It comes with some fairly complex software that allows for background noise, timed exposures, stacked images…… There are more control, adjustments, bells and whistles on it than the average jet fighter and that's before you try and interface it with the computerized mount on the telescope to get it to track and follow a given target. I'm still coming to grips with the darn thing and the weather of late hasn't been helping either.

One of the real problems I have is focusing the telescope for the DSI. It's neigh on impossible to do but I have been working on installing a multi turn indication knob that will allow me to position the focusing mechanism to within ±0.025% of any given position. The idea is that once I know where the focus mechanism should be when using the DSI unit it will be a simple task to just dial up the appropriate setting. Like anything to do with telescopes and astronomy it's never as simple as it looks. I need to manufacture a small sleeve or collar to go between the new knob and the existing shaft of the focusing mechanism. I have it all drawn up and the materials to make it I just havn't managed to actually build the darn thing.

Knowing my luck, the day I finish it and get the new focusing knob installed we will get hit by a tropical cyclone or some other equally devastating meteorological phenomina.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/04/2007 1:53 PM

A long lost friend of mine made his own focusser device. From memory it contained a sleeve to fit over the primary aperture which had 2 wires accross it at a certain distance. The focusing would be done live and something with regards to the interference of those 2 taut wires, showed you the correct focal point. I really don't know any more than this and it is all from memory but it worked like a dream. Search and ask your local star club, maybe they have heard about it as well.

I will search for it as well and let you know if I hear or see anything.

I will be re-visiting the "spot" with the scope as soon as we have some clear sky. It is darn hard at times. I am half thinking about a small sized Schmidt Maksutov or Meade goto. Must be better than my manual equatorial 4" refractor. Must do either of following things:

1) conceal the purchase from wife

2) convince her I need it

3) buy her an equal priced present

4) generate the cash first from selling old stuff on e-bay.

I do not know which one is the best but I am itching like hell to get a better scope

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#9

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/06/2007 4:38 PM

Why doesn't the tail disappear when the comet is at its greatest distance from the sun?

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/07/2007 9:11 AM

No tail on this one as it lines up away from us (I think)

visit here and here for more info.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/07/2007 10:08 AM

No visible tail just at the moment, maybe, but that was not the point. The comment was referring to the cartoon of an orbiting comet - and this showed a tail running from the comet throughout its orbit.

The tail of a comet is caused by material leaving the comet's surface under the influence of the sun's radiation. When the comet is in the outer parts of its orbit the radiation level at its surface is low, so presumably no tail is created. In all likelihood it will be accreting some of the material that becomes its tail next time it approaches the sun.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/07/2007 10:11 AM

While on the topic of the unrepresentative cartoon - the comet should move fastest when it is nearest the sun.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/07/2007 12:32 PM

you're not one of those people that always believe cartoons, are ya?

you are right the tail should not always be visible but it does move faster closer to the sun.

have you been able to see the real comet? where do you live?

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/07/2007 1:55 PM

I am near Cambridge in the UK and it is clearly visible here even though not very impressive. Through a 1000mm refractor with an 26mm wide angle it nearly fills the whole field of view and that is an imposing size. Other than that it is quite low on the scale of WOW as it is nothing more than a light spot without any discernible features.

Hoping that when I have my new telescope????? I could do a longer exposure photograph and over lay multiple shots. Maybe that will expose the core or at least some shape in the middle. Maybe not and it will just overexpose We will never know as at the moment the new scope is not happening immediately.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/08/2007 3:57 PM

Of course I believe in cartoons - I've turned too many of the darned things off to have any doubts as to their existence.

Near Cambridge - me too. Have you visited the revamped John Lewis yet? If not and you plan to do so, I would recommend taking sandwiches and a duster.

Back to comets - the one on a stand near Hatfield looked pretty good last time I saw it. On the other hand, Holmes might look more interesting as it gets a bit further away, as his pipe will no longer obscure the smoke he's producing. (But there should still be no tail at all once it reaches its outer orbit).

Of course, pending arrival of your new telescope, you might get access to a better view by joining one of the local groups (choice would depend on whether you lean to toon or goon).

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/08/2007 4:06 PM

P.S. I just noticed you wrote 1000mm refractor. I guess that's a mistype, as most people use reflectors beyond about 100-mm objective diameter.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/08/2007 5:22 PM

Well, yes and no. It is not a mistype but rather lack of further dimensions. It is a refractor with focal length 1000mm and an objective of 4" or 102mm. Sorry for the misleading display of sizes. Just boasting I guess. Would you like a look through a refractor that size? I know I would.

Just got the new scope. Decided to get a new ETX90PE rather than second hand bigger 125CE. Heard too much about problems so rather want the warranty if needed. They did me a nice deal that included the whole range of meade 4000 eyepieces and a barlow plus a 5 piece filter set. Got the LPI for a good price as extra as well so complete package to grow into for the next couple of years. (for me anyway)

Could not wait of course so had a sneek peek but not at the comet. Had a rumage around orion and already noticed that it outperforms my old refractor by many times despite its small size and the cloudy sky.

If you register with CR4 you can keep in touch more easily and tell me more about your astronomical viewing experience perhaps.

Back to the manual and try to figure out how it realy works

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/10/2007 8:33 AM

You might enjoy the Wednesday evening meetings at the Institute of Astronomy (there is often demonstration using an 18" reflector). (See you there, perhaps?)

It sounds as if your old refractor was not all it might have been...

For subjective observation (as opposed to analytic work), I like to see a good number of resolvable points across the visible field - your new 'scope is pretty good in this respect.

Of course, if you wish to use the highest available resolution, most of your activity will be limited to using post-processed data; unfortunately, that means it's back to computer screens.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/10/2007 12:36 PM

Hello Physicist?,

Thank you for that info, I will try to come as I want to get more involved in my local groups or clubs. I have lived here for over 9 years and had my telescope for most of that time but never got round to going to meets.

Do people bring their telescopes or is that other meetings?

Looking forward to meeting you there but if I cannot make it I will let you know via CR4.

Regards,

Kees

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/10/2007 1:32 PM

I hope you will find it interesting. These are joint meetings, and on the occasions I've attended no-one has brought their own - but that may have been due to the nature of the talks. However, I'm pretty-much certain that there are opportunities for people to bring their telescopes and discuss how to get the best out of them - but not necessarily on Wednesdays.

One of the problems I've found living in this area** is that there is so much going on (technical, cultural, environmental) that you have to prioritise - and even then I find (including for an association where I have organisational involvement) that I cannot attend every event.

You have been warned...

**I've lived hereabouts on-and-off for well over 40 years, and it's never been any different.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/10/2007 4:44 PM

Back-pedalling already? Only kidding of course. I may not make it either I think, my daughter just informed me that I knew I had to pick her up from this party in Burwell at 9ish that day, oh well, many other wednesdays.

Just had a clear spell here caused by this sudden bitter cold. First time I confirmed the correct procedure of the auto allignment. Just followed the wrong procedure I suppose and now it seems ok but for some deviation on the goto finding actions. This may be down to my inaccuracy of the pointer stars centering, I don't know for sure but I suspect that I need to be more accurate.

Found several items in rapid succesion which before would have taken me loads more time to find. Realy enjoyable to have the goto function.

Started with M45, M31, Uranus (very dim), Hyades with all those lovely doubles and NGC1647, M42 and horsehead (which I found out is invisible) and finished with Mars as it just came over my house by that time. All this, including allignment, in 2.5 hours!!! That I would not have done in a week or so before with my old refractor not even taking into account that some of these items are not even visible with that scope.

The old scope was only a Celestron 102 (or 4") F10. Not good enough for any real observing but a very good first step on the ladder. I took eye piece projection pictures of the moon with great detail and of saturn clearly showing the open rings. Also observed Jupiter and managed once to see the cloud rings on the surface.

Anyway we will meet one day, of that I am sure. Take care and till next,

Regards,

Kees

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#23
In reply to #18

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/12/2007 6:14 PM

I managed to go in the end and thoroughly enjoyed it. Nice people and very nice equipment. Asked if anybody knew you from what I described about you but to no avail. Hopefully we will meet there one day.

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/13/2007 6:50 AM

Glad you made it and it was worthwhile.

Regarding non-identification - the effects of hiding behind an alias and insulation from short-term reactions, perhaps?

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/13/2007 8:23 AM

haha, if you have something to hide, better hide it well

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#22

Re: MASU on Meteors: Comet 17P (Holmes)

12/12/2007 6:12 PM

As stated in my other post, I went to the Institute Of Astronomy today and saw Holmes, and other items, through a 14" Meade with video projection. It clearly showed the coma now elongating slightly and the frontal lobe of the coma being denser around the edges than on the inside. It gave the comet an rounded arrow kind of look in my mind. Truly amazing stuff.

These astronomical meetings are a perfect way to ease your way back into the hobby. Good stuff.

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