Common Purposes

My experience to date with Six Sigma has not been positive.

In virtually all the "improvements" they have made, it costs more to do business.

My favourite example is:-

Take a nice simple automated three step process and convert it to: -

A Seven step step, disjointed, manual process requiring several meetings for approvals.

Some of us who are a little "Irritated" have since done some number crunching and our rough estimate is that the change in process is now costing approximately 400% of the original process in time and effort.

In stead of Six Sigma Lean...we refer to it as Six Sigma Fat....

Further analysis identified that the Six Sigma Black Belt had Skipped a few steps to expedite the project...

"Do what I say...not what I do." type thing.

Until they join the real world and look at the entire process Six Sigma is just words...

Just my 5cents worth.

Regards,
Sapper.

Hello, my name is Gary J. Oliveira. (houdon)

Sometimes an outside observer does have the best perspective.
This is only my second day her at CR4 and already I am part of the problem.
Please refer to my first posting in reference to "lean manufacturing" in the manufacturing forum.

I was first attracted to this site thinking there was a potential here to share our experiences and skills, to see if we were willing to come together to help our industries survive and prosper in light of the present rapid decline and pending elimination of manufacturing as a whole in this country. And that may still be true, but what I have found is an overwhelming first impression that a lot of this time and space is being used to contemplate and wheel swords in more of the same intellectual managerial nonsense that has tied this countries industrial potency in knots over the last 15 to 20 years as those "in charge" scramble in ever tightening circles trying to be the saving strategist.

The basic premise will never work.......Think, and think hard about what and how industry first started. You can not put the horse before the carriage.
This is not to undermine or to be derogatory in any manner towards the necessity of management and boardrooms, but allow me one line of wisdom.

Management was created to manage ingenuity, not the other way around.
As the great sculptor once said with calloused hands to the question, "is your work good?" His simple reply was "I am only the lowly sculptor who needs to work and create and invent for my living, such matters are for those who have the high ambitions and leisure to sit and debate such things"

This will only be solved if creativity and it's goal to problem solve with common sense is allowed once again to guide the process.
I am afraid that I myself doubt whether business will ever put themselves in that position again with their work forces, even if it means cutting off all our noses to save face.

I am always here for future constructive, pro-active discussions.
houdon@verizon.net
Thank you for your time.

Welcome Houdon,

Please do start a new discussion!

Talk about what you think is important to manufacturing in this economy...

You will find most of the members are talent as opposed to management.

Thank you Garthh and Milo,

"talent as opposed to management"

Is a very good start.

Six Sigma appears to be a mashed up process for academically deficient "engineers" or those of other disciplines that need a crutch to get their job done.

Like the 'new' courses in management that are 'sold' to corporations periodically it is mostly the S.O.S. in new formats and notebooks. Looks and sounds different but essentially recycled material best described as the same old ladies of the night all dressed up in New Kimonas. Been there, done that, as some of you readers.

If you need qualification from Six Sigma to get a job, seriously consider another company first, get qualified as a last resort only.

I have been with a company that went down the pan due to too much interference from Six Sigma devotees.....I liken it to the Scientology of the work place!! Leave it alone!!

I do believe that in manufacturing only that they sometimes have a good effect profit wise, but for the service industry where flexibility is needed, they cannot figure out a policy that covers everything that a customer expects and needs....

I think the comments already made are a total shambles. Almost every big company in the world has six sigma and it does do a great deal for the companys that implement it PROPERLY. This is the key most companys say their going to change the way process's are done in the workplace, but only manage to do a half assed job. It is how six sigma is interpreted. Six sigma is about putting quality back into the finnished product, and also shortening process times due to removing wasteful tasks.

I believe that if properly integrated into a dedicated company six sigma can work wonders.

Just look at some of the big companys who do?

You have obviously never been in a company that went down the pan AFTER SS had spent 2 1/2 years improving it!!!!

When up close, you first feel that they have a good handle on reality, that image soon gets tarnished!!!

Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt, now I'm retired early!!!!

It is not a general thing for any company, I personally believe that they are probably good for manufacturing processes, but for the rest, nada.....

I wonder if you are under 30 years old.......am I right or wrong?

As i said before six sigma does wonders for manufacturing process's, also It is how six sigma is interpreted by the company and used appropriately. Any i dont think is makes much of a difference how old i am.

......the reason that you don't think it makes a difference to how old you are, proves that you are young and inexperienced to me personally. But be happy, you are still young and hopefully have a lot more time to grow up experience wise.....

Once you have gathered as many gray hairs as I have (on my face, hair on my head is still Blond!), while you have been around a lot of "quick and perfect" schemes close up, you start to get a feeling for such things.

To me SS (unfortunate but appropriate initials!!) is like "energy for free" blogs on CR4, looks good at first glance, but after studying it close up, you change your mind!!!!

I will probably not be around in 30 years to hear what you say when you are about my age, but I promise you, your attitude will radically change in many respects!!! You will hear a loved Father or Uncle's voice in your own suddenly!!! Its a shock, but you will get over it!!!

I would love to be your age with my knowledge, I would bowl the world over in one year!!!!

Have great day in spite of me!

Nice post, Andy. I can relate to much of what you're saying. I'm a lot older than I believe you to be, and I can see the "immaturity" (not a negative put down) in my two younger son, ages 7 and 9. They are both honor roll students, active in sports and Martial Arts (my 9-y.o. is a black belt and on the traveling Demo Team). But they also haven't experienced much of the world, both good and bad, even tho they've traveled extensively, they are just "innocent". So, I can understand why you asked the other responder his age level. Best regards.

I will be 62 in October.....!

I learnt the hard way often. Yes I also listened to the "Old Codgers" from time to time (thank God!), my father and my Grandfathers, but usually went my own way, sometimes good, sometimes not!!!

It is always a problem when you have a family of Engineers, my Father and both Grandfathers!!!!! It gives a LOT of room for discussions!!!! We had two electrical Engineers, one construction Engineer who specialised in repairing underwater tunnels that leaked and one town Engineer (Dover, UK).

They are all long dead, but I miss them all, especially my Father..KM. Even after 30 years I still think of him every day at some point. I hope my kids do the same for me after I am gone!!!!

I am an ex Black Belt and Yes i agree with you six sigma does a world of difference for those set of people who are experts in statistics(telling scientific lies)and get rewarded at the cost of their fellow employees jobs

crm

I can only rate the answer as "good" in CR4, as it should have been rated "fantastic!" Many thanks! I hope our young Cub reads and learns!!!

Andy, knowing the quality and quantity of your posts, we are flattered to have your kudos.

milo

Is this a "takes one to know one" situation?

I always try and mention it when I see a good post, yours was particularly good this time and deserved (in my book) an extra special mention!! No more, no less!!

dear Andy

young S.S.cubs (like world war 2 SS)will never learn because their motivation is climbing up the ladder fast to be one of the top managers in the market.as simple as that.

crm

I was recently contacted by a company that is a subsidiary of the top 100. Their problem was and continues to be errors and management problems concerning manufacturing. These folks have more work and more money than they know what to do with.

During the "interview" with their plant manager, manufacturing manager, and HR, I was asked numerous questions about "SIX SIGMA" methodology. Over the period of some thirty-five plus years in Engineering and construction I have dealt with many issues that defeated the intended purpose. Whatever the case may be there is always an opportunity to improve.

Long Story Short, the Plant Manager and Manufacturing Manager were both more concerned with what experience I had in implemenation of problem solving than years of experience or education. So, (drawing in a deep breath) the fact seems to be, that some/many people are definitely convinced that SIX SIGMA is the salvation that they are seeking.

So is praying to any one of a number of Bronze age sky G-D's; Chanting pointless phrases ad nauseum, and rubbing the preserved locomotory appendage of a deceased Oryctolagus cuniculus.

While these may give the penitent MANAGERS a greater sense of comfort, they do nothing to actually affect the process.

Problem solving skills, and execution of systemic permanent root cause corrective actions is in fact the answer to their prayers. But it is neither properly nor uniquely named by the phrase six sigma.

Good luck on the job.

milo

I tend to agree with that but ONLY with regard to a manufacturing environment.

With customer Service its a big failure.......the problems start when the SS do a good job for the manufacturing division and the Boss tells them to carry on with the rest of the company.....

Oh boy. I've been there as well and been given the T-shirt, as well as the boot! Six Sigma contains wonderful tools for problem solving. But, it is no substitute for those with thorough knowledge of the process who are not too lazy to seek continual improvement.

If companies would only be careful, and apply Six Sigma to the processes that need it-often on a temporary basis, then it would work so well. But the intent of the promotors of Six Sigma is that a company become managed by Six Sigma from front to back.

A former employer became addicted to Six Sigma and to what avail? More closed operations, lost customers, and lost revenue. Of course they purchased a huge Six Sigma shotgun (double-barrelled one at that) and took aim at the entire organization. Now they are picking up the pieces of what remains.

Organizations are either burned very badly, or they achieve improved results through Six Sigma-it is all in their application of Six Sigma-not the Six Sigma programme itself. It is no substitute for Common Sense or gradual but diligent improvement gained through disciplined effort. I dare say that the companies who benefit the most are they ones who use prudent judgment and see the value of Six Sigma where it is most applicable-and do not see it as something to fix everything quickly and impress Wall Street.

Best Regards,

Ing. Robert Forbus

Friends,

Six Sigma could do green and then yellow and finnally black belts in six sigma certification.Final Certification to be provided in Six sigma for Experts.and Six Sigma for Black Belts Certification is esstential for completing green belt certification.

Thanks,

Six Sigma maybe a branded quality methodology, but it is helping many companies to pro-actively use statistics to drive data based decisions. I have a hunch that many of those who have a strong dislike for Six Sigma may have been in an environment where management did not implement it correctly or did a half assed job of it. Its a cultural phenomena within the corporate structure and those companies that use it the right way are definitely profiting. As someone who is learning the tools of Six Sigma myself, I can say I'm far better off knowing the tools and how to use it than not. Statistics can be used to deceive or lie and being cognizant of how it can be used the right or the wrong way is definitely a plus in my eyes.

Actually Ron, it's the point that the six sigma fan boys seem to think they invented quality. And they needlessly complicate it. And they think that there is only their way to do the calculations. And like the dingbat poster above "you can get yellow belt then green and finally Expert six sigma." sheesh. I don't need to have Fred Flintstone on my vitamins to take them, and I don't need some branding guy telling me that six sigma is somehow more magical. That sh*t may make the boys and girls on the third floor go "Oooh," but i was saving millions of dollars in process waste before "Six sigma" became the one true faith that finally got guys like me invited to the conference room. Milo