Electric Vehicles

Again this shows how ignorant people are in these technologies which are now tied to our quality of life and our progress as people. This critique is not specifically aimed at you as there are millions out there who does not know a piss about various types of Lithium batteries.

There are 3 distinct types of technologies among Lithium batteries.

1) Lithium Non-Rechargeable batteries - Which use Lithium metal strip, like the button cells in your watch or calculator.

2) Lithium Ion Batteries - Which are not the same as Lithium Ion 'Polymer' batteries. These are the batteries which has a liquid ion electrolyte base and are involved in the so called fires and so called "explosions"(if you can call it that) . Please note that the problems for such batteries is not due to the technology that was used, but due to the technology that was not used in them - Prevention of overcharge and temperature increase during charge-discharge that is.

3) Lithium Ion Polymer batteries - These are advanced design with a Polymer as the absorbed electrolyte Base. These are the safest design as these batteries are 'Solid' and have the required charge-discharge controller, besides a high temperature cut-off.

This discussion is aimed at bringing this technology out of the myth of science fiction to that of a DIY kind of process.

I would like to assure everyone that this is a safe process and we can do it. This is the only way if you want to build your own all electric golf cart or a hybrid and want to power such vehicle using your own handmade batteries, the whole contraption within $2000.00 and run it for less than 5 Cents a mile.

No. Not this technology which is outdated. These are Lithium-Metal Polymer batteries, not Li-Ion Polymer.

I doubt if anyone wants to use Lithium-Metal batteries in EVs.

But your point is well taken. Your concern is well founded.

They catch fire for two reasons as I have said - heat buildup during discharge or pressure build-up during charge. Polymer avoids the pressure buildup. Electronic protection circuit cuts off the power cycle when there is a temperature rise or a short circuit.

If you look at the chinese Lithium Ion Polymer battery making units, these are smaller than your garage.

I made a few myslef and let me tell you this, it is not rocket science. You can buy all the materials here and make the end product using a bench coater and a hair dryer:

http://www.predmaterials.com/en_batt/index.html

This is where bureaucarcy comes, because the great and clever laws politicians and layers put in place!

Human did risk everything to achieve what we have achieved today, our ancester scientists did whatever it took to find out the great laws of physics and help build up our civilizations, while people claimed they are civlized drag all emotions to put all this advance to come to a haul. There is no risk, there is no harvest. We all, no matter you in the science or finance or whichever arena, have to risk to get something. I am not saying Vandarye is wrong. I believe putting 2 things in is very important just because what Vandarye said,

1.Precautions,

2.Disclaimer to off load the aforementioned responsibility.

I love reading this blogs and they let us all advance, although we do not always really work on them. If we all leave the kind of study to whatever "professionals", we'll end up in situations, only those muscular investor can do whatever they want! Who can employ professional technologist? Who can buy those stuffs to study? Who can have the money to employ laywers and solicitors to off load their responsibilities? We pass information here! Even if we are the professionals, we still might ending up being accused! So, Precaution warning and disclaimers first!

By the way, there are a different kinds Li Batteries, some are more robust than the others yet Li is hazardous, really needs precaution to handle, especially when charging / discharging are concerned.

GUEST

As you said before, even with professionals in or associated with Dell, they still have the problem you are worrying! Nokia had the same problem before!!! Don't you think those who made the things for these giants were professionals? You know what happend after those fire?

The differences is, most of the time (not all, Disclaimer: I am not saying Dell and Nokia did what I am going to say in the following), giants has the money to get lawyers and solicitors to get rid of responsibilities, as far as possible while keep all the earnings, they most likely would not pay for any heartache you mentioned! Neither the professional nor the users would be benefited! Should we let this people stopping us from getting any progress? Having said that, I believe we all aprreciate those business people who take moral responsibilities to do whatever necessary to make up for any inconveniences or hurt because consumers using their products!

Let professionals get on with the work they lead the world to advance forward on the one hand, and keep every body informed of the potential dangers, disclaim like the giants, so that, people would take the risk at their own cost if they choose to! Wouldn't this sound better!

GUEST

Seems to me the gasses emitted during charge and discharge caused the fires when holes in the batteries allowed in oxygen. That happens with polymer batteries as well. Dangerous.

Now that I have that off my chest, give me instruction, video, well defined please, same with pics, and lots of em. Make instructions that are written VERY detailed and precise, and also include all of the tiniest details. I will then GLADLY whack one up in my shed, "ain't skeered", but I DO want to know the dangers involved, and the ways to avoid them. If I screw up, then let it be MY mistake. I would never lay blame elsewhere then.

As far as I know, Li ion batteries allow great electric current to pass thro', therefore heat associated is great that would ignite any flamable gas generated. Li is the second member of the group I element (the 1st member is Hydrogen, the 3rd member in the group is Na, which emits hydrogen when put in water and catches fire, must be stored under oil), which are very active element and has the properties (in terms current, impedances... during charging and discharging) to form the kind of ions for battery application. It is therefore by law, that commercially available Li ion batteries and chargers must have safe measures to control the charging current to follow an exact time Vs current profile, and switch off the chargers after around 98% "full", leaving only a very low current of order of microAmp to keep the battery under charge saturated.

Newer design might improve a lot that I would like to know more, any inputs?

I believe we still have long way to go for any satisfactory inventions in batteries, it is the most probable candidate to lead us advance to a new era of green technologies. We therefore must not let greedy merchants and law makers stopping us from going forward! Genuine Scientist would find Physics laws for breakthrough when facing limitations in the Universal, only greedy people would try to use human "laws" to derive benefit from other people's finding and point fingers to others when they committed mistakes! We who engage in technology should be so alerted and don't let be stopped from progress nor even being hurt!

Guest

Dear SeshKanuri,

You have taken a bold step in starting this discussion. This is a very good discussion and it is good for the environment. If every vihicle owner converts their vehicle to run on batteries then the dependency on the deplenishing fossil fuels will be less. If you can help me in giving the technology then we will develop batteries and try to sell at less $200 per kw if possible.

Creator

I am going to post a couple of easy processes in the coming weeks so that everyone understands how this is done. I am going to bring the cat out of the bag so that people can make their own judgements about whether they want to burn their hands with it or not.

But, I am sure this technology is going to be available to the masses soon, once we found an easy way to do this stuff.

Dear Seshkanuri,

We have developed a Glovebox for doing experiments to develop the Lithium Ion polymer batteries and are looking for some assistance in terms of the process to be followed and the composition and the appropriate chemicals to be used. If you can help us then we can do some experiments and report back.

Regards

Glovebox is a crucial component to fill-up the batttery with the electrolyte which is hygroscopic. Once it is filled, the last part is sealing the metallized polyester cell cover and charge it, to be ready for use.

I can help you with a few processes that are very interesting, in terms of safety and also cost.

I am preparing a word document that lists these processes and will be able to share with others once I finish the same.

Anyone interested may email me your email address to seshkanuri+at+gmail+dot+com.

Dr. seshkanuri,

Can I have a copy of the lithium polymer Mftg. process?

One you mention in this forum.

My email is Vincentgc@pldtdsl.net

Thanks.

Vince

Dear Mr.Seshkanuri,

Glad to know about DIY manufacturing processes of Lithium Ion battery. Would like to do some hands on over this DIY.

Can i request for document of the lists of these processes.

thanks

sure. send a request to seshukanuri at g mail dot com.

Thanks

Excellant points.

Though I would not think that the materials you need to make the Lithium Ion batteries are available at your nearest grocery or hardware stores, once you get your hands on the materials, it would not be too difficulyt to make them.

I may not be able to make a video of the actual manufactuing of some batteries right away, I will certainly post the key steps involved, so that everyone knows what is involved.

Some initial explanation of the Anode/ Cathode/ Electrolyte and materials needed are going to be posted soon.

Nope, I have not been arrested and I am sure you too will not be arrested for using the knowledge here and making the battery.

I have already sent the process document to anyone who is interested as it is several pages long to post it here.

If any more persons are interested, please contact me by email or post your email addreess here so that I can send you the document.

use my first name and last name without dot/space/underline at gmail dot com, to send me the request.

Thanks
Seshu Kanuri

I got your document, thanks!

I'll need to ask you to explain it to me a little bit. I understand how to make the cathode and the anode, but I'm confused about the electrolite. There is the cathode, anode, separator, binder and plasticizer. They were explained on pages 7 and 8. Where is the electrolyte? And how do I put everything together? I see "liquid" electrolyte on the page 9, and then again a different anode and cathode assemblies on page 11. Please explain this document to me a little bit more because I'm not that good in chemistry! Thank you!

Read the first paragraph once again, if you have ignored it as some basic stuff. This paragraph explains the differences in two processes to make the batteries.

The document I have sent contains basically two processes - Lithium Ion (LI) Battery(With Liquid Electrolyte intermediate layer) and a Lithium Ion Polymer(LIPO) Battery(With a Gelled Solid eletrolyte intermediate layer).

Both processes need Lithium Hexaflouro Phosphate(LiPF6) as the "Intercalation compound". This compound is dissolved in an organic solvent such as diethyl carbonate (DEC) to create the "elctrolyte" layer

As you may be aware, the LIPO batteries are safer than LI batteries as the electrolyte is not a combustible liquid such as the free form diethyl carbonate containing LiPF6, but a solid gel polyethyleneoxide, PEO containing LiPF6.

Both types of batteries contain the base intercalation compound LiPF6.

Whereas the LI batteries contain a liquid electrolyte and a PP or HDPE Seperator, the LIPO Batteries contain the Solid Electrolyte, which itself acts as the Ion exchange medium(Seperator).

Hope this clears some haze in understanding the battery design.

-Seshu Kanuri

How to put everything together:
------------------------------

Cathode current collector: Non-limitative examples of a cathode current collector include

· Aluminum foil

Anode Current Collector: Non-limitative examples of an anode current collector include foil formed of

· copper

You need some Copper foil(Anode or Negative Electrode) and some Aluminium foil(Cathode or Positive electrode). You also need a "Bench coater", just like the one you use for lamination to make binders or laminated documents.

The Gel for the intermediate layer can come from the "Gel pads" you put in your refrigerator to soothe backaches or relieve your mother-in-law's Lumbar pain.

Anode:

Definition: The anode of a device is the terminal where current flows in. The cathode of a device is the terminal where current flows out.

Anode active material is Graphite.

The negative electrode was prepared by dispersing

91 wt % of artificial graphite and

9 wt % of polyvinylidene fluoride powder in N-methylpyrrolidone as Solvent to obtain a negative electrode composite agent in slurry.

Cathode:

Definition: The cathode of a device is the terminal where current flows out. The anode of a device is the terminal where current flows in. Cathode shall be manufactured in the following manner.

Method:

A positive electrode (Cathode) was prepared as follows.

Cathode Active material is one of the Lithium Compounds such as LiCoO2

In order to prepare a positive electrode, a positive electrode composite agent was prepared by dispersing the materials in N-methylpyrrolidone as solvent.

· 92 wt % of lithium cobaltate (LiCoO.sub.2),

· 3 wt % of polyvinylidene fluoride powder, and

· 5 wt % of graphite powder in N-methylpyrrolidone to obtain a slurry.

Polymer Intercalation Layer:

Method:

polyethyleneglycol dimethylether (molecular weight=1,000) can be used with 1Mole LiPF6.

--------------------------------------------------------------

1) Apply the required Compounds to the Anode and Cathode and dry them to make them ready for use.

2) Prepare the gel layer.

3) Put the electrodes into the Gel layer and seal them with in a Polyester pouch with PVC Glue.

You have just made the Lithium Ion Polymer Battery that will give you about 3.7 Volts of electricity. Make 10 of them and connect them in serial to run your Electric Cycle using a 36V motor.

Best of luck making the LiPo Batteries at your home.

hi there, I,m biswa from india ,continuing my 3rd yr. B.Tech. in electrical engg.I am intrested to know the Li-ion battery manufacturing process and it'd be very helpful to have a response from you. thank you biswa