Electrical Components

The studies compare averages while High Tech industry hires the best.

US industries had a huge advantage after WW2, so the fact that US industries are ranked highly may only be a historical accident (just look what's happening to US Auto manufacturers).

The poor marks in science may be due to the strong effect religion seems to have in some areas. eg age of the earth 6000 years.

And keep in mind that High Tech industry also hire foreign people at considerable numbers for R&D-related jobs.

You can only be taught things that someone else knows. New development by definition cannot be taught. And the huge inertia of traditional societies blocks new ideas. The USA still believes in the new and as long as that belief continues, she will lead. In England, new ideas in traditional areas are treated as evil. I am heading for the US as fast as I can.

Simon

As the mechanic (hate the term technician) and adjunct faculty in a university Tool & Die and Injection Mold Tooling program, I have seen some real head scratchers. Some of these kids come in from high school with such arrogance that they must be allowed to fail before they can be taught. Others show up wanting to learn and do really well. I do feel that we do a better than average job getting the students up to speed for the real world. Our machining students are some of the best in the nation with experience in manual and CNC machining. Toyota was looking to hire around 13 machinists about 3 or 4 years ago. They looked in Indiana, Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, and I think also in Tennessee. They hired 11 of our grads that year.

I do have a plan to help the less motivated students. I call the program BEER-RUN. That stands for Best Ef Everyone Reads wRites and Understands Numbers. Yes I know writes starts with a silent "W". I figure the type of student that this program would target may not realize the "W" was even supposed to be there. It was my thought to have this as an early afternoon study group. Can you imagine the turn out at a college or university for an advertised afternoon BEER-RUN?

Well I have been looking for a good school for my oldest so look for him in 2 years.

He is a good kids but like a mule. You know how to get a mules attention? With a 2x4.

Think maybe the tests are skewed? Think maybe the people who publish such rubbish might have some sort of vested interest in saying such things? Think maybe something like getting funding for schools and other educational programs increasde?

What I understand is average American boys/girls may be not be good in Science or math,but they are good on shop floor. They have more creativity,are good technicians and do good job when assigned practical projects.

Suresh Sharma

I'll take a practical engineer over a theoretical one every time. Big difference.

"I may have to explain that to a theoretical engineer"

hows that saying go.......book smart and practically stupid.

I don't think that the university system makes too much of a difference, I think it has a lot more to do with freedom of ideas/risk-taking that at least to me seems more prevalent in the US.

I don't think Bill Gates even made it out of college but I think you would have a tough time finding a person that had a larger impact on the "high tech" industry in the last 40 years. Read his wikipedia page to get an idea of how smart and ruthless this guy was, even at 15 years of age. A person who took an enormous risk when he saw an opportunity and then made the most of it, whether you hate him or not.

Well I have worked with my kids for years and they tell me constantly "Dad I am so far ahead of the other kids in my classes it is almost too easy." They could weld by age 10.

I just looked at the Vincennes University classes offered and I can't believe how many things they offer at a 2 year college. Here in Tennessee the Polticans and Educators must be holding our kids back just to suck more money out of them. Here many of the classes they offer can only be accessed in the 3 rd years of a 4 year college. They control access to education tight and I did not know that. But I promise you that my whole state will know shortly. I will not tolerlate this.

That is a common reply from most people when they actually take time to check out Vincennes University. I know from experience that there are other schools that talk about machining for a semester before any real precision work is attempted. Our program, as with many programs on campus, assumes that incoming students do not have any past experience in the area of study. We start with the basics. That also allows us to introduce the correct or preferred way of doing things to those that have had classes in high school. Good time to start breaking some of the bad habits. We typically start to hit the shop about 3 days into the semester with measuring exercises then start machining right after that. Not just drill press work. We go through safety demonstrations at each type of machine (Vertical mill, lathe, surface grinder, pedestal grinder, band saws, and band saw blade welders before the students are released to work. If you would like more information drop me a line at rnash@vinu.edu

Or call 812-888-5916

If you wish information on other classes I can help there too.

When I was going to college, I had worked with some brilliant students on projects. They cared more about their grades. Never heard from them until about 20 years after we graduated, found out they were working at basically as engineering techs, being directed by engineers.

Seems that they can score rather high on exams given to them, but they tend to fall apart when dealing with the chaos in real life lacking practical experience.

And after being out of college for 20 years, they should have something.

I'm glad thats not wide spread.

The US has always been innovative in ways the rest of the world has struggled to match. I believe there is a stigma on "thinking outside of the box" in many cultures. I have worked extensively with several European and Asian engineers and there is always significant resistance to doing something in a new way. Sometimes we American engineers are just too dumb to know that what we're trying "shouldn't" work; but we keep at it until it does. Seems to be working so far.

I think Gates and others use the H1-B Visa'a to grab the best and the brightest several years before they graduate and bring them to the USA to finish college.

A very good documentary on this topic was broadcast on BBC World TV (bbcworld.com) within the past 6 months, called "Chinese School". Kids as young as 5 and 6 go to school 6 days a week and work late into the evenings, studying to master their subjects and reach the next level of education. A major re-think on how we prepare our kids here in the US to compete globally needs to happen, similar to what happened after Sputnik went into space.

Well, for what my limited opinion is worth the first thing that needs to happen for our kids to get a good education is to get rid of all of the bueracratic BS. Here in Ca. we are having a "budget" crisis that seems to happen every year and Hmmmmmmmm what does it always seem to effect? The schools. Why it can't do anything to effect a politicians job I can't understand. Or the pet pork projects that they like to sponsor with the help of their alumni in office... This and the people in the district offices as well...

The unions are great (I am in the IBEW) but tenured tree hugging, pole smoking college professors in the colleges around the country need to not be there anymore. They need to go away, far away. Like say to France so that they can talk to other people that share their views on hating this country of ours. My union is having to go through a wake up call of sorts. The teachers need their own wake up call as well. Our kids need to stop being lolled around, they need to be taught. Hell, Mexicos schooling is more in depth than ours is. They get 12 subjects in a weeks time as opposed to our 6 (if not 5 or 4 for those jocks and kids that work)...

The high tech industry hires people from overseas. But are they paying them as much as would have paid a person that was educated here in the states? Sort of like outsourcing. The factories do that in some of the midwest towns - they bring in cheap labor across the border (not necessarily Mexico) and put them into jobs that hard working people have been in for years, why? The all mighty dollar and capitalism at work... S O S, save our kids..........

Cheers

Well a high school diploma in Eroupe is eqaul to the 3rd years of college in the U.S..

Some U.S. Colleges hold back students to have low wage workers it seems to me.

I compared school in nothern states and ours in Tennessee. Tennessee makes everything hard. They have class for the Junior Year of a 4 years college that northern states offer in JR COLLEGES with no pre-requiste either.

Seems bussiness control a lot of what is and what is not taught in U.S Schools so they can control their workforce too.

Seems business control a lot of what is and what is not taught in U.S Schools so they can control their workforce too.

Very true, considering there input. technical college try to fill the need in the area and industry has a very big say in it.

One more thing. look at school as a business and its product as students, The government support reflects its product output. One small technical college of which i was an alumni. since there drop out rate was so high to keep the students enrolled, they lowered the educational bar (difficulty of classes) to generate more graduates. Of which I was very disappointed.

phoenix911

phoenix911 you are spot on in how the educational system works. It is becoming more about quantity over quality. More students = more money. We are trying to keep the standards high. Our reputation and continued success depends on quality graduates. There has been a real push in the past years to increase class sizes with the same number of instructors. That might be ok in a math lecture, but it can create a dangerous situation in a machine shop. It is a trend that has been fought against. We also have advisory committees for each program in the technology division. The committee or board is made up of industry leaders and faculty. They work together to determine what needs changed due to current technology and what needs to remain the same. I must point out that they are all volunteers. Some of them will drive over 3 hours for the meeting. In the past we have had requests from students for a CNC only degree. Due to input from the committee we now have a 3rd year CNC option. The recommendation was to keep all of our traditional machining classes for manual and CNC and add an advanced CNC class where the students can get 4 and 5 axis programming/machining with Master-CAM as well as some PRO-E training. With help from our partner, Haas Automation, we have one of the largest CNC labs in the country. At the time of our open house for the updated CNC lab (3 years ago), we were the largest Haas Tech Ed. Center in the United States. I am not sure if there has been a larger one opened since.

We also have advisory committees for each program in the technology division.

This Technical college also has advisory committee (made up from various alumni selected randomly from industry) for evaluation of classes, industry trends input, directions and quality. With a part of the faculty member as a facilitator.

I brought up the point of the lowering of the standards, did not go over too well.

And having had a business, and having hired engineers, I was very disappointed.

Engineer requires math, you either know or recognize the principles or you don't. very surprise they can enter problems in a calculator, but they do not understand after the point of input in the calculator and the answer it gives. So they do not know how to check and verify it.

hopefully its just a cycle.

I have seen your comment;

I must point out that they are all volunteers. Some of them will drive over 3 hours for the meeting. In the past we have had requests from students for a CNC only degree. Due to input from the committee we now have a 3rd year CNC option. The recommendation was to keep all of our traditional machining classes for manual and CNC and add an advanced CNC class where the students can get 4 and 5 axis programming/machining with Master-CAM as well as some PRO-E training. With help from our partner, Haas Automation, we have one of the largest CNC labs in the country. At the time of our open house for the updated CNC lab (3 years ago), we were the largest Haas Tech Ed. Center in the United States. I am not sure if there has been a larger one opened since.

Its coming down to those individuals who cares, as well as industry investing on having competent people to operate their products.

phoenix911

I live in the UK, and one of the things you will notice is that we don't have an engineering infrastructure left. There are very few engineering jobs these days and comparing students at high school with industries is ridiculous. There are many universities in the UK offering hi tech degree courses, but most graduates will have to work overseas or for some branch of the armed forces. I have to say that this sounds very much like someone looking at unrelated statistics and drawing the wrong conclusion, as Benjamin Disraeli said "you get lies, damn lies and statistics".

High school is largely a waste of time, everyone knows it. The system is designed fora one-size-fits-all mindset which leaves some people behind and leaves the rest in boredom.

Students are frustrated because they aren't really respected. Svery sign of agitation and boredom they display indicates they need something more, something bigger to stimulate them. College usually helps, because they begin to work on complex more meaningful projects, and they are given more freedom.

I believe that work is even better, because the 'students' are paid to learn, and it is extremely clear to them how their work is needed, valued, and how it relates to the big picture. In high school kids constantly ask "when am I going to use this skill in the real world?" Obviously, if you put them in the real world, they wouldn't feel that frustration. I highly doubt that we should automatically force all 16 year olds to start working, but we need to consider ways to make school more relevant and I think this disparity will disappear.

Everyone wants to be respected, useful and relevant. While school fails to deliver these components the grades will plummet... but once students leave school, they will learn and grow.

Great perspective! The key is to show students that at least some work is required in areas not directly relevant to their end jobs, and that is a challenge.

In other countries they identify the kids with an area of study early. In the US parents don't want to "pigeon hole" their children or want their children to be labeled so principals and politicians do what they say. So, instead of getting an education in something they might be interested in with relevance to their life they are made to take a bunch of general classes.

I don't think that people are pigeon holed by studying one area. I think that kids could benefit from a relevent education and they can always change, people do it many times in their lives.

Also, the US educates all children while other countries we are being compared to does not educate all children.

We need to expect more from our students and give them more. I had students interested in engineering, very bright students who were not necessarily straight A students, and counselors told them that they should probably just think about a 2 year degree. People are afraid of engineering and they scare others away from it.

I was an engineer who wanted to teach to encourage others to pursue engineering but I am back in the engineering world because I was tired of the beaurocracy.

Could it be they are trying to get H-1B Visa's to bring in people who will not demand high salarys?? that U.S. works do?

a way to suppress wages.