Power Generation and Distribution Blog

What a stupid idea...
One's perception of 'cold' depends on many factors, age health, tiredness. To have it controlled by the utility com[pany is ludicrous... I'm sure the lawywers would have a field day when some old Lady dies of hypothermia, or gets too hot because she is wearing 3 cardigans and the utility company turns up the heat.

Slaps furry head with paw!

Del

I heard ads for this from Ontario Hydro when I was in Canada a week or so ago. They seemed to think it was a great idea. I think it is a sign of poor electricity production planning, and improper grid management.

Yes, I agree, it's a stupid idea but it's not an issue for them. For example recently E-On has installed a 100 kW LW transmitter (135.6 kHz) in Budapest, they want to control the appliances in the central European region. Beautiful new world...

The individual that installs a receiving antenna tuned to 135.6kHz can have a field day with E-Off, then.....

Hello, here in Tennessee there in one rural power coop that I know of they had these modules that tied in at the breaker box to control hot water heaters and heat pumps.

the object was if power demand was high they could cycle the units to lower power demand at peek times and at other times when demand/use was low they could cycle the hot water heater . They had an over ride switch you could push to by pass the off cycle if there was a need. Like taking a shower and doing laundry at odd hours and need more water than the water heater has in reserve. The power coop would give a discount

for people that signed up. That started in the mid 80's if i reminder. the units were rf controlled. I never noticed any different but my parents saw some savings on the power bill.

the principle seem to be when people were at work "day", or at sleep "night"

the unit would conserve or if peak they could reduce demand some.

If the power company gave a money incentive more people would sign up. If is was mandatory then some people would have problems. so long as it worked in peoples

life it would/could be ok with my past experance with control.

Charles

I have one on my two A/C units here in Georgia, USA. During peak demand, in the summer, the power company will turn the A/C unit off for 10 minutes. If they do that at any time during the month they will credit your power bill $5 for the month ( not $5 every time they do turn it off). It is suppose to keep them from having to build additional generating stations just for high peak demand.

Please see this thread where this topic was well discussed:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/21569

milo

I can remember having a council flat in Portsmouth in the late '70s. These had underfloor heating where the timing & temperature was controlled by the local authority, at times we had to leave all of the windows open overnight to let the heat out otherwise it became unbearably hot.

There's nothing new in Global Warming, then?

Here is another situation where we have a regulated monopoly in action.

Think of it this way. The power company is a provider of goods. The power company can not keep up with consumer demand, so sometimes your electricity is on backorder.

If this was a free market, the excess demand would be filled by one or more additional companies that would carry the consumer demand. Providers would compete for your business and you could select the provider that best serves your needs at the best price.

The problem is that the power company is the only game in town and the market share is guaranteed at close to 100% for them. So, there is only so much in the way of incentive to provide exceptional service. It is up to the local or state government to look out for you and force the company to provide a minimum service at a set price.

The reason this arrangement exists is mainly due to the expense in setting up and maintaining the infrastructure to supply power in this case.

So, if the power company refuses to sell you enough of their product you have little recourse except to complain to your representative in government.

So just because they are the only game in town, we must let them tell us when we can use the product?

I don't think so .

LEt them deal with the consequences of their underbuild, not assault us by failing to provide what they received a monopoly franchise to provide. Its not a free market, so They must takle steps needed to assure suypply based on their being granted monopoly status as sole provider.

It is not on back order, They have a public license/obligation to provide .

TAking control of my usage is not "providing," its stealing my degree of freedom.

They must provide.

They do not receive orwellian permisssion to regulate my space.

milo

Ah, that's the point. They are a company and can (within limits imposed by the government) select who they do business with and how much business they do. It's not that they are intruding on or taking your liberty. You don't have that liberty in the first place! You gave it to the government when you elected your representatives. If you didn't vote, then you have no foundation to complain. If your vote didn't get elected, then that's the way the republic cookie crumbles. Keep trying and try to convince others that a change is needed.

Your government sets the boundaries that the power company must operate. That is the minimum operating standards that they are required, by law, to provide. Just because you demand it does not mean they have to deliver beyond that minimum standard.

Take heart. Your government could be the power provider. If you don't like the service/price now, just consider that alternative.

Hi AH.

Actually, a case could be made that when something becomes ubiquitous, there is no longer an extraordinary profit to be made, and so the supply does in fact evolve to become "public ownership" I would argue that that is the case with, for example, water systems and sewage systems in The US.

What we do not agree on is the change in the terms of the agreement between the licensed monopolist and the market. The Utility does not have the right to select its customers, based on the way they are licensed in my state.

The utility is licensed to provide power, not to select who and when should receive it.

I am not party to any agreement that says my power is routinely interruptible.

(I was once at a steel mill, on a commercial contract, but that was a business decision) this was discussed in the other thread I posted above.

Its really not subject to plebescite, either, Public Utility commissions are appointed and serve under the 'direction" of elected officials, but the elected officials seem to have little say in the rulemaking or other details.

best regards milo

(inthe peoples republic of california, I guess it could be that it is covered by ballotinitiatives, I know they have alomost as many ballot initiatives as traffic jams out there.)

Well, you have to check the fine print. If the power company is in violation of the law by regulating the amount of power you are supplied and when you are supplied it, then you have a legal case to pursue.

Chances are that they are not in violation. Or, if they are, the "rules" will get changed by an act of whomever, and thy will shall be done unto you.

Traffic jams... I liked that one!

I hear you, Its creeping incrementalism. at its finest.

milo

Ok everyone find out the freq. and codes then build a transmitter and turn your neighbor

units and keep turning them off and they will swear the power co. is out for them.

In reality the power co. system is not too secure to hackers or other problems.

to hear and read in the trade mags.

Just something to think about.

Charles

Great point.

milo

Interesting thread. Including the back flash to an earlier thread on same subject. (Thanks Milo for the link)

However it ignores the very real issue of conflicting demands. On the one hand people generally will not allow the power generating companies to build any more coal, or natural gas fired plants or nuclear powered plant. They also expect the price to remain constant. Yet at the same time people expect these same power companies to deliver more and more power to an ever increaasing population.

Now we have a situation where people are asked to share a limited resource. The response can grouped almost by political boundaries. Americans say no way! I got mine and I am not giving any of it up.The european respondents seem more inclined to accept power sharing as an alternative to building more power plants with their attendant pollution or radiation risks.

Perhaps it's the trigger word "control" that sets some people off.

Peak demand periods are often predictable, at least to power utility operators. Not so to the general public. They are totally oblivious to the demands they place on the system. These are the same people who drive out on the road during rush hour and then complain about the traffic. While also insisting on no new taxes and no toll roads. In some areas, people are even objecting to constructing additional power transmission capacity.

Ontario Hydro did use a load shedding system a long time ago. It was power line carrier based and disabled the power feeds to hot water tanks. Participating customes got a preferential rate.

Judging from some responses this is not acceptable. Perhaps it would be better to change the metering to the industrial version that gives one rate for base load but really hits the pocket book for peak demands or power demand in excess of the base load if it occurs during leak demand periods. Seem the pocket book is the only thing some people pay attention to.

When I worked for a power utility we placed industrial customers on such a metering system. If they insisted on using lots of power during peak demand or if they did not limit their own peak loading, we charged them accordingly.

To my mind limiting load demand is better than a total black out. If we did not have inter tied utilities the local power company would not have the rability to import power from a neighboring utility with greater reserve capacity.

One alternative solution of having your own generator in the back yard is not acceptable in crowded urban regions. The additional air pollition from these gensets would quickly result in greater health problems for many people. At which point you would likely have a total ban on gensets.

I do not see what's so terrible about load shedding by participating and pre notified customers. Unlike hot water, AC power cannot be stored for a later need. Settable thermostats for the A/C is better than no cooling whatsoever.

Great point elnav. People have got to learn to conserve energy. In India, load shedding is an everyday occurrence in which blocks of loads are disconnected. Switching ACs off is better than not having any fans..