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Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

Posted October 05, 2008 5:01 PM

Welcome to October edition of Monthly Challenge Question from Specs & Techs by GlobalSpec:

You and your wife are out admiring the foliage in the late, cool days of fall in the Northeast U.S. Your wife says it feels cold; you tell her she must be getting sick because you are finding the temperature very comfortable. Who is correct?

And the Answer is..

In general, women have more body fat than men. For instance body fat of a 30-year old woman represents 26 percent of her weight, while in men of similar age body fat accounts for only 21 percent. This means that men have more muscle (fiber) than women. Now, fat is generally inert matter while fibers are always contracting even if you are standing still. These contractions produce heat that is used to warm the body.


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#1

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 3:17 AM

There are quite some parameters that one may take into account, like, e.g. the different physiology or different clothing between a man and a woman. But I bet this cannot be the answer, as it doesn't account for the particular season the scene takes place. So here is my first go:

The man, might be stepping on an insulating layer of fallen foliage, which prevents the balance of radiated heat exchange with the ground being too negative for his body. The woman on the other hand, would act as women usually do: Try to step on the cleanest place possible... paying the price for it.

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#15
In reply to #1

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 2:43 AM

Just to add a sociological point of view:

A man won't admit that he feels cold; he has to play the "macho" sort of man, especially the first few weeks he is with a girlfriend or a wife. (Of course, after routine slips in, he can relax a bit and maybe allow himself to shiver, cry, watch musicals or do other wussy stuff.)

In contrast, a woman has to draw attention, an extra warm hug and, if lucky, a rub in the back, especially in a romantic scenery like the one at hand.

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#69
In reply to #1

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/21/2008 8:23 PM

On the other hand, if you are with a beautiful woman, regardless of her relation to you.....you take her cue....pull her close and share your body heat.

Gentleman, this science is the science of amore!

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#2

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 3:54 AM

Apart from women always being right, the bloke is the one who's ill ; some kind of hypothermia thing going on.

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#3

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 6:26 AM

I like tkot's answer in principle* - but if it had been my wife and myself, we would both have been wearing waterproof boots and thick socks - and up to our knees in the piles of leaf (assuming these to be available).

So, neglecting tkot's detail:
My wife is right that it feels cold to her. And I am right that it is comfortable for me. That situation is quite usual. So my statement that she "must be sickening" would be treated with the contempt it deserves (on the other hand, I am usually 'persuaded' to carry more clothing than I need, which comes in handy).
Were it the other way around (as once happened in the early years of our marriage) she would have been quite right.

Had it been my father concluding that my mother was sickening (no longer possible, alas), he would almost certainly have been correct.

*maybe an additional reason is that tkot is carying the rucksack, thus he is both more sheltered and generating more heat.

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#4

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 8:02 AM

First I must state, "The wife is ALWAYS correct!"

That being said there are way too many parameters missing here. How are each dressed has been stated and is true. What is the age of you and your wife. I remember one fall day here in Michigan where my family was "up north" to help my grand father pull in his dock for the winter. There stood:

my grandfather at about 70 in his winter coat

my father at about 50 in his heavy fall jacket

my older brother at about 30 in a wind breaker

myelf at about 25 in a sweatshirt

my younger brother at about 15 was in a t-shirt and shorts

We were each comfortable in what we were wearing.

Body mass is also missing. A person that is larger and has more mussle mass (usually a man) has a core temperture that is more stable and will not "feel" cold as easly as one who has less mussle mass.

A firm defination of "cool"s also missing. I find about 68 F is comfortable while my wife consistantly would find that to be "cold" and have a jacket on.

Is the sun shinnig? or is a "glum" overcast day?

How long and fast have we been walking? Has she worked up a sweat and I have not? While a fever from being sick will raise the body temp inside causing a sweat and feeling of ambient temperature to be low, it does not need to be the only thing.

With all that being said, I belive that the woman would be correct. Iread an article a few years back where some studies had been done showing that until the temp drops to the point where viruses and bacteria can't live, temperature has no bering on wether a person will become sick. Environmental condition such as humidity can have an effect on the "growing" abilities of said pests, but has no bearing on wether a person will catch them.

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#30
In reply to #4

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 10:26 AM

I would just like to say that Suelbog is quite intelligent. The woman is always right!

For a man to say that his wife must be getting sick because she is not as warm as him, is just another egotistical, "weak minded", way of a man trying to puff himself to be better than the woman.

Kudos to Suelbog for recognizing the following;

1. A woman, irregardless of size or body mass, will usually make a statement like that because that's her way of saying, "It's beautiful here and I would love for you to hold me". However, her knowing that her macho male companion would frown on such a statement as it would be mushy; she states that it's cold.

2. That so many factors should be thought about before the mouth is open to something that can't be taken back. (You must be getting sick, it's feels good to me)

I would like to say thank you for posting a comment that makes sense!

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#5

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 9:31 AM

I think they may be looking for explanation of why polar bears and emporer penguines are the largest of their species and because of that, they can live in the coldest regions of the planet.

It has to do with the ratio of volume to surface area.

The larger you are in volume, the smaller your ratio of surface area for that volume.

Therefore, assuming the hubby supports a larger girth than the petite wife, then his ratio of surface area to volume is less than his wifes ratio of surface area to volume and she will feel cold while he feels comfortable.

So the next time your petite wife says she feels cold, then lend her your jacket.

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#22
In reply to #5

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 8:43 AM

You are absolutely correct ...... It has to do with the ratio of volume to surface area.

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#34
In reply to #22

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 11:10 AM

Think about it. If a man is in the middle of the forest, many miles from anywhere and anyone else. IS HE STILL WRONG?

I said my piece

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 12:19 PM

He is if he's with his wife!

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 1:05 PM

(to be sung with the tune from Bonanza ......)

I'm ok ... You're ok .... Everyone's OK..... da, da da da, da, da da da, Bonanza , da, da da da, da, da da da , Everyone's OK.

By the way Number 5 post is the correct answer.

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#45
In reply to #36

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 2:13 PM

Well, the short answer is, of course your wife is correct! Happy wife, happy life.

The longer answer is that perceived comfort is a personal matter, and an ambient temperature that one person finds comfortable can be too warm or too cold to another person, even if both are dressed similarly and of similar physique.

Having said that, my wife has reached the stage in life where, as one comedian quipped, she has "traded in her electric blanket for a 40-horsepower ceiling fan." She is most comfortable at about 72F (22C), while I like it closer to 78F (26C). Of course, I don't point out (to her) that she is much better insulated than I am. Early in our marriage, when she was younger and less well-insulated, we both would feel comfortable at about 78F; but moving into a cooler room, she would become chilled faster than I would.

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#53
In reply to #5

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/13/2008 4:07 PM

good answer Uncle Red.

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#6

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 10:17 AM

I left this one alone till I read a few replies, Yes I'm a coward?, they have run the gambit of, yes she's always right, body weight, clothing and age, and have we all the necessary information? The clues given are, male and female, time of year and location. One can safely assume that the male and female population are no different from any other. As for clothing and age, they have been left as an open question.

So as they where looking at the foliage, I assume among the trees, I would say she was standing in the shade and he in the sunshine?

Regards JD.

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 12:06 PM

That would presume the sun was shinning. I wondered myself when I pointed out,

Is the sun shinnig? or is a "glum" overcast day?

Although I myself think they would be nuts, I see many couples walking on a glummy day in the fall here in Michigan. Some are admiring the follage and some seem to be even more nuts by just seeming to walk.

3
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#7

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 11:06 AM

I have a proven answer to this little quandary! A few years ago I had an operation on my knee! Part of the pre op was to shave the hairs from my leg! After the op, my knee was cold and I thought it was due to the surgery so I asked my Dr.! He said it was only because I had no hair on my knee and sure enough when it grew back, the warmth came too! So, the male of the species has an insulating layer of hair on their body that keeps the warm air from escaping! Now the fairer sex shave it all off loosing that insulating layer of hair! So by a simple matter of deduction, the wife is always correct but because we are closer related to the cave man with our abundance of hair then we can also claim to be correct if only for the purpose of keeping the fairer sex warm at night, after all there are only so many things a duvet can do! Find one that can chop logs and build a fire and we are all doooooomed I tell ya!

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 11:46 AM

Aren't you rather letting the side down - this means you were wrong to say she was sickening for something?

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 1:16 PM

If she wants it that bad she only has to ask!

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#23
In reply to #7

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 9:02 AM

I think that I am going to side with you on this one Mr. Brain. I too have had leg operations and found the same occurrance with the cold although I did not attribute it to that until just now.

The other thing I would like to add as well would be chest hair. Women don't have it and most men do. Keeping the core temperature warmer thus keeping the body warmer.

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#60
In reply to #23

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/14/2008 1:07 PM

...chest hair. Women don't have it and most men do...

You haven't met my neighbor's wife!

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#26
In reply to #7

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 9:51 AM

While I do like this answer, it does make some assumptions that we don't know. It assumes the man has body hair where the woman does not. There are many ways that this may not be true. Body builders, for example, shave it off. Some men,for another example, have more hair than others (I have two male friends that have no chest hair at all and so little leg and arm hair so as not to be easily seen). And for a third example, not all woman in the world (here in USA or other parts) shave their legs or pits (other things are left only to our fantisies and speculations).

All humans (with the rare medical exceptions of those born completely without) have hair that would help insulate. This is evident by the "goose bump effect". Goose bumps (or chicken skin as I have heard it called) is the body raising the hair on the skin so as to help keep a thermal layer around the body in order to allow less heat from escaping the body.

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#11

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 8:27 PM

My bet is that the man is Irish and his wife is a gorgeous Amazonian Brazilian and they are holidaying in the Northeast US.

Seriously, temperature is a very relative measurement when we rely on humans from different parts of the world to give their verdict.

I used to work for a multinational company in Galway Ireland some years back and I remember one time we had a lady from our North Carolina plant pay us a visit during the month of July (Northern Hemisphere Summer). She wore her long leather coat, and several layers underneath I have no doubt, to our office every day, while the rest of us locals were just wearing short-sleeved tee-shirts.

It was summertime to us but sadly it was equivalent to her winter

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#63
In reply to #11

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/15/2008 11:25 AM

Same thing here in Florida with a minor added issue. People from the northern states relocating to Florida do not tolerate the high summer heat, but can more easily stand the "cold" winters when the temp dips all the way to 60F or lower.

Additionally, the older folks we affectionately name "snowbirds" cannot tolerate the extremes of the north so migrate south for the winter.

Tony

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#12

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 11:04 PM

Your wife is right! She is not sick and is feeling the effects of the normal "cool fall days". You, on the other hand, have an elevated body temperature (fever) because you are sick. You mistake this as normal and feel comfortable.

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#13

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/06/2008 11:23 PM

Both are correct. The man, because of more muscle mass, generates more heat within his body when he moves around. The woman, even though she has an extra two layers of fat to provide ample food in case of famine for her baby, feels the cold because her body heat is kept in her body cavity to also protect the baby and thusly, her hands and feet are expendable by Nature's evolution in case of a harsh winter. Why do you think a wife will put her cold feet on a husband's hot kidney area? Circulation and heat--go figure.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 1:33 AM

I'm inclined to agree somewhat with Procrastin. My wife and I have such vastly different internal thermostats that I sometimes wonder which of us is an alien.

She sleeps under a heavy down quilt while I heave the thing off within two minutes of retiring, preferring just a sheet.

According to Dr Karl Krujilnitsche (spelling?) this is a common phenomena. I've always put it down to differences in metabolism.

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#18
In reply to #13

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 7:21 AM

I agree that both are correct but it doesn't have anything to do with physics or thermodynamics. Hot and cold, warm and cool...these are all relative terms just like speed (define too fast). I naturally like a warmer temperature so when I think a room feels comfortable other people think it feels too warm.

To be honest though, I really hope I'm not right on this. If so, this would make a real lousy challenge question.

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#16

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 3:14 AM

Doesn't the first sentence say "in the late, cool days of fall in the Northeast U.S.". Therefore: isn't the wife correct?

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#17

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 3:33 AM

I suppose we are both heavily clothed. I also assume we are the same height and weight. So I must have something extra on like a hat and maybe I also have a beard. This will ensure that less heat from my head and face escapes. This in turn will ensure that my core temperature is higher than my wife's.

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#19

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 7:27 AM

She is in that she made a statement as to her feelings. Not that in fact it was cold. Each of us are different. We have different body make ups, clothing habits, metabolisms and jobs that may acclimatize us to changing weather.

Now he could be if in fact she was getting sick. The elevated body temperature of a fever would make her feel cold.

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#20

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 8:24 AM

Time for an off the wall response.

Seeing as it is late fall the sun is setting low in the sky. The husband just happens to be standing such as to absorb the sun and the wife is in his shadow. So as he is gaining the added advangate of the solar heating the wife is let to shiver. All the guy needs to do is more out of the way and so the sun can warm her up too.

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#21

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 8:31 AM

Another possibility is that if the man's work keeps him outside more than the woman's job, he could have become acclaimated to the cooler temperatures sooner. I usually can stand the cooler fall temperatures but as I just got back from a 3 week stay in Vietnam, the cooler temperatures feel a bit less comfortable than in the pass years.

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#24

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 9:37 AM

I don't entirely accept the shaved vs. unshaven leg argument. Women's bodies have a subcutaneous layer of insulating fat that men's bodies don't have. This would keep the wife comfortable on a 'cool' autumn day. Her comment really means she wants attention. She wants to be held close and told that although the foliage is pretty, she is prettier. (*)

I remember waiting for the school bus on cold winter days, seeing girls in skirts (no pantyhose) who were comfortable while I was freezing, even though I was wearing pants. The layer of fat is a good insulator.

(*) Note: Only a fool would tell her she 'must be getting sick' and only an idiot would mention the layer of subcutaneous fat.

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#44
In reply to #24

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 2:12 PM

Self proclaimed IDIOT! While I did not call her fat, I did insinuate her to maybe be old. Just as bad if not worse. You can lose fat. You can't lose old.

What is the age of you and your wife. From post 4

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#25

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 9:37 AM

Speaking for my wife and myself (to avoid embarrassing generalities), My body has much more volume than my wife's. The greater volume gives me more muscle and, yes, fat to insulate my heat generating core (vital organs). Thus given that our clothes provide equivalent insulation; I, the larger male, have the advantage of additional insulation to prevent heat transfer from my heat generating core to the cooler environment where:

ambient temp < 98.6° (human core temp)

Speaking generally, the argument can be made that this holds true for the majority of the species.

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#27

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 9:59 AM

I'm not an American and have no idea of the climate in the North East USA, but here in the UK there is very little foliage to be 'admired' towards the end of autumn (fall) and very few of the trees will have enough foliage to either shade you or keep heat in.

Just because she says it feels cold doesn't mean that she is actually cold, it could have just been a 'winter is coming' kind of comment.

But i agree with the majority, women are always right...!

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#28

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 10:05 AM

The key phrase here is "you and your wife." It is a known fact that once married, a woman turns cold and her comfort zone narrows to a two degree range. The husband is supposed to sense her discomfort and respond preferably by applying some form of physical comfort, ie. a hug, an affectionate rub on the back, etc. He could also (rather symbolically) remove his fall windbreaker and put it over her sub-zero parka. Not only is this a warming gesture, but it equalizes that comfort zone. What she is telling him is that she would rather be inside cuddling next the a crackling fireplace. What he is saying is that he would rather be nude.

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#29

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 10:12 AM

Your wife is ALWAYS Correct!!

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#31

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 10:44 AM

She of course is correct. She is stating how "it" feels and not how she feels. Fair enough if she felt cold then maybe she is sickening but she has stated how the cool temperature and general autumn ambience feels. And autumn generally feels cold to me. It doesn't mean it is cold because I can be in my warm office or house looking out at a cold feeling autumn.

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#32

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 10:48 AM

Aha now I see why:-

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#37
In reply to #32

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 12:24 PM

That's great! laughed out loud for 5 Min.

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#33

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 10:58 AM

My wife! I've been married far too long to have any doubt about it.

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#35

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 12:16 PM

if the wife was from a warmer climate, she will always feel cold and this situation may be the rule rather than an exception, it certainly is for me

(the man knows but the wife knows better)

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#39

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 1:11 PM

If my wife and I were on a pleasant outing, admiring the Northeast US foliage in a late, cool fall day, and she said she felt cold.... if I did not accept this invitation to put an arm around her and give her a warm embrace, then I must be the one who is getting sick.

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#40

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 1:17 PM

Several people have hit on very good points that should be included in the final answer. The surface to volume ratio is one key point. The larger muscle mass of the typical man to typical woman is another key (more muscle mass - more calories burnt). Another is that the average man is larger than the average woman and requires more energy to move his body along the path. With each calorie burnt comes some amount of heat produced. Some of this heat is intentionally produced by the body to maintain its core temperature, but most of it in this case is waste heat from burning the calorie to produce energy for locomotion. Hand in hand with this fact is another clinically proven fact that the calorie burning process in men is less efficient that it is in women. What this means is that not only must he burn more calories to move his more massive body down the path, but his calorie burning process is less efficient than hers, producing more waste heat. This is the primary reason the average man eats more than the average woman. Add to this the fact that his surface to volume ratio is smaller than hers and therfore his ability to radiate heat is less efficient than hers. The only obvious conclusion on a cool fall day in the woods is that she will be cold while he is more than warm enough. Neither of them is sick - physically.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 1:22 PM

Well Spoken!

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#42

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 1:39 PM

The answer is actually quite simple. Since men are from Mars and woman are from Venus the temperature differential relative to their home environments would make both correct. However intimating that she was getting sick was probably not the best response. A happy wife is a happy life

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#43

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 1:48 PM

She is saying she is cold because she is behind him.

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#46

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 5:45 PM

When people don't feel well do they perspire? If so, she would feel colder due to evaporation.

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#47

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 8:30 PM

They are both right- it's an individual's view point. Thermal comfort is a very personal concept. It will be influenced by such things as: dry bulb temperature, humidity, air velocity, radiant convection and conductive heat transfer, metabolic rate, an individuals "pain" threshold and probably a dozen other factors (not including the ones already identified by other respondents) that slip my mind at present (damm that slippery little sucker). Oh yeh- visual, noise, smell, mood, etc.

Another Aussie Engineer.

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#48

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/07/2008 10:54 PM

don't be foolish the wife is always right.

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#49

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/08/2008 4:09 AM

Admiring the folliage? Sounds like the trees leaves have gone yellow orange or red. Deciduous trees put on a spectacular display of colors only in certain locations where specific day length and diurnal temperature variations exist. I wish i could remember exactly what they were, but perhaps they might be relevant.

The might be a simpler hexplinashin though. Wifey is standing behind hubby and wifey, overcome by the beauty of nature, is suddenly overcome with ummmm... friskeyness. unbeknown to her husband she has stealthily removed every stich of clothing that she was wearing.

She is not sick, she is merely waiting for you to turn around, silly.

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/09/2008 8:57 AM

You are very close...... BUT.

The reason he is warm is because the sun is on his back warming his body.

She is cold because she is laying with her bare back on the colorful, damp, wet, leaves that are on the ground.

So they were both correct.

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/09/2008 10:48 AM

Unfortunately you told that your wife that "she must be getting sick". So, attractive as your wishful-thinking explanation may be, it does mean that you were wrong.

Consequently, you are going to need to do an awful lot of household chores before you get another opportunity like that one.

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#52

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/10/2008 7:06 AM

Your wife's thinner skin has more acute sensitivity, both to hot and to cold. You, on the other hand, have comparatively thicker skin and poorer skin sensitivity. So, if your wife says it feels cold, you are in the poorer position to judge whether or not the air temperature has varied from temperatures that had prevailed previously. Therefore, your wife cannot be judged, especially by you, to be incorrect or under an influence such as sickness. Therefore your wife must be correct. It all centers around the capability of the skin to detect ever slighter changes in temperature...and females have the advantage in that capacity. You only tell your wife she's sick because you are not as able to detect the change.

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#62
In reply to #52

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/14/2008 2:12 PM

Quite right. Anyone who disagrees with the wife must have an incredibly thick skin. Remember that in any discussion between man and wife, the man always has the last word...... It tends to be "yes dear".

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#54

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/14/2008 10:06 AM

The easiest question yet - of course the wife is correct!

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#55

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/14/2008 12:05 PM

Truly a "no brainer" for anyone who wishes to reamain married. Wife is always correct! Particularly if she's going through menopause. In the last year I can't count the number of times the thermostat has moved from "tropical" to "Arctic" and back in the space of an hour.

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/14/2008 12:30 PM

You should take her on a long walk through some fallen leaves! Maybe you could let us know her reaction when she says 'I'm cold' and you say 'Yes dear, I know your cold!'

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/14/2008 12:51 PM

I've been married long enough not to fall into that trap! Every now and then they'll try saying something sneaky like "Does this dress make ass look fatter?", heaven help you if you've fallen into some mode where you're not really paying attention and all you hear is "fat", the automatic response to which is of course "No".

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#59
In reply to #57

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/14/2008 1:00 PM

Actually had a great oppertunity, and took it, a few years back. I was picking up kids from the ex-wife. She had a date and asked just that question. I was eager and proud to say "Nope, it's your ass that makes your ass look fat!" It felt GREAT!!!!!

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#58

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/14/2008 12:52 PM

The actual question is: "Who is correct?"

The answer is simple, and indisputable, they are both correct. Perception of temperature, as in "I'm cold, I'm hot, or I'm just right", is as about as subjective as it gets.

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#61
In reply to #58

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/14/2008 1:25 PM

I actually screwed up that last post. She is correct that she feels cold. He is correct in that he feels the temp. is OK. However, he is incorrect, (and a bonehead) for telling her she must be sick to feel cold.

So, after reconsidering, she is correct, and he is incorrect.

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#64

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/17/2008 5:59 PM

Where does it say they are walking, with the infinite variables that go with that? I put that they are driving through the countryside in an evenly heated automobile interior. They are both experiencing identical environmental conditions and he is right.

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#65

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/20/2008 5:24 AM

One last go..........According to something I read, the night time temperature is about 5oC. A run of warm sunny days allows the leaves to produce lots of sugars, but the cool nights allow them to retain the sugar. Eventually the sugars get 'cooked' in the leaves by daytime sun, producing red anthrocyanin.

Oh, I give up - the question says it's "cool". It's like asking 'what is comfortable'. That's pretty much exactly what it says.

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#66

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/21/2008 11:38 AM

I think that the wife is wearing cotton. It will keep the perspiration in the fabric which will appear to make the body a cooler temperature than what it actually is. The husband is wearing Gore-Tex as an outer layer, or a modern fabric as a base layer that will wick away the perspiration and make the body feel warmer, even when the outside temperature isn't.

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#67

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/21/2008 12:39 PM

The man is wearing a hat his wife isn't

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#70
In reply to #67

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/21/2008 11:16 PM

He's also wearing over and under clothes of his wife's; so is she. So it must be her lack of head cover.

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#68

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/21/2008 2:13 PM

of course the wife is always correct. and if the man was chilly he would never say it first. he would simply say your right honey it is cold.

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#71

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/22/2008 4:47 PM

It might make a difference "what" she's feeling, hmm? Perhaps she's got her hand where it would please him most and him likewise! Both responses would make perfect sense in this case.

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#72

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/28/2008 10:16 AM

Both>

Teh man's core body temp is lower so the ambient temp around him does not feel as sensitive to the change

The women's body is higher in temp, so the air is more sensitive in chage to her skin causing the sensation of cold.

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#73

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/28/2008 12:27 PM

Your Wife is sending you a message, "Dummy"! "She wants to be hugged", "and maybe more"! Don't you realize that your wife is always right, " except when she chooses to be wrong just to protect your ego, and she has that right TOO! If you do not believe this, "ask your wife's closest female friend." Who knows, "maybe there is a fire in the hole"! "Don't you see!

I'll bet we get a lot of dumb answers to this question! You Know, stuff like the effect of the color of the leaves, the shorter periods of sunlight, the effects of minor changes in temp.s, the fact that women wear lighter weight clothing, That because women are smaller than men their bodies will lose heat faster, women generally eat less and therefore may need more food provided energy, their bodies are generally less dense than those of males, and shed or cannot retain heat as well, and the baro. pressure is changing" Did I miss Anything" Don't you Know!

"MY" Vote goes to the "WIFE" as being the most correct!

Toomuchfun

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#74

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/28/2008 6:50 PM

I've thought this over, and perhaps the guy is correct too. He's married to this woman after all. Perhaps, he really knows her well. Perhaps, he knows that, under said conditions, she would not normally be cold. Therefore, she might actually be coming down with something. He may then, be a warm, caring, loving husband, and she is a lucky girl to have him!

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#75

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/28/2008 11:10 PM

Okay, here's another stab...

The question really is: what is the question?

In that regard, I offer that the question devolves to matters of survival and of averages and extremes.

As for survival—

Could we not say, that the very pronouncement, "It feels cold," is a statement which, at its most fundamental level, is stimulated by innate (therefore immediate) survival instinct? That because pain (discomfort) is the primary mechanism by which all people detect threat to survival...whether or not they are immediately aware of such a threat? To that, could we not add, that the woman's statement is also driven by innate, gender-linked nurturing (mothering) instinct which leads her, likewise un-self-consciously, to "look out for" the male child (and provider/protector) in her midst? As if she was saying, "If we remain out here long enough, our survivability (more especially, "your survivability and utility for me") will be compromised"? Conclusion: Score 1 for the female.

As for averages and extremes—

On average, as between any male and female, the female (in addition to having more abundant heat-retaining deposits of subcutaneous fat) is likely to be smaller...probably the more so (likely) as among a married pair. Hence—because the wife's (the female's selectively inbred) lesser surface-to-volume ratio bestows greater heat retention than the husband's, and thus greater survivability against extremes of low-temperature exposure—ought we not to conclude that the wife's statement (in effect: "We had better not remain exposed to these worsening conditions for too long!") carries greater "survival weight" than any such (perhaps) eventual statement (one more likely to be too late) by the male? Score another 1 for the female.

Finally, how might we characterize the man's statement? As suggested above, Monthly Challenge Question offers nothing other than that which establishes a premise in which near-term survival must be given greatest weight—the leaves have turned, indicating that: they will be dropping soon; temperature averages and lows are trending downward; daytime hours are diminishing; weather conditions & predictability are unstable.... In contrast, nothing is said (or can be surmised) regarding any other impending (shorter or longer term) risk (starvation, predation, ... marooning) for which male traits (including comparative male expendability) would confer a survival advantage to the couple. Therefore—and irrespective of its (provable or unprovable) validity—the husband's statement to the effect, "Until I am uncomfortably cooled, we need not concern ourselves with getting on home (before overexposure...nightfall, further temperature drop, etc)" can be given little or no weight as regards near-term risks.... Accordingly, we must score 0 for the male.

Conclusion: In the given circumstance the wife's statement (by a score of 2 - 0) is closer to correct; therefore is correct.

By way of historic support of the above, the Donner party emigration to California, in which females only survived to be rescued from marooning in the Sierra Nevada, provides a case in point. Had the males understood that unusual mountain weather might render their own (male survival) "virtues" irrelevant, a decision to tough it out in Reno before attempting a passage in the spring would most likely have led to most of the party's survival.

Epilogue—

What has "leaves dropping soon" to do with survival, you ask? If, despite what a male CR4 participant might say, we can imagine your wife's abiding in your decision to "push on" for more foliage admiration time before departure to the safety of home, can we not also imagine a search & rescue party opining a few days later: "If not for the leaves, we might have discovered them a few days ago...in time for their bodies to be resuscitated!"?

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#77
In reply to #75

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/29/2008 9:52 AM

Which official position are you trying to get elected toooooo!

That was one hell of a speech! You got my attention!

"BUT I AM STILL GOING TO VOTE FORE YOUR WIFE"

Sorry for shouting, but there has been a lot of noise lately on this forum, regarding a question that as stated, offers a baited opportunity for manhood to demonstrate his lack of smarts regarding female methods of getting a little romantic attention. Actually the only get together more noisier is a hen party, You Know, one of those female only gatherings where they all sound like they have just laid another egg and did this all at the very same time. All the while bragging about or condemming their sex lives, if not that, they are re discussing surgeries and pain, or boasting about their little Tommy, Sally, Cindy, Terri, Jamie, Jerry and so on, and none of them is listening to the others because they are all talking at the same time, generally about different subjects.

So there you stand, way up high on your podium, and here I stand surrounded by all of the cold women in this crowd, Do you really think that I can hear you, when my wife is talking.

Toomuchfun

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#76

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/29/2008 8:52 AM

both...capillaries withstanding, she wants your coat and to share your body heat. Color of leaves strikes a chord in her he can't hear. Snuggle, tell her she is prettier than leaves. Offer to go for hot liquids. and a cozy fireplace with a nice spacious couch and covers, lots of covers, No company, just covers. It's not his place to understand, only to accomodate.

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#78
In reply to #76

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

10/29/2008 7:18 PM

Since you're a guest I can't tell if you're about the smartest man on here or a lady spilling the beans. Anyhow, you got my vote!

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#79

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/07/2008 8:58 AM

"The Answer will be posted right here on CR4 on November 4th."

So where the heck's the answer?

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#80
In reply to #79

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/07/2008 11:17 AM

The wife was right - this was an emergency question and the guy died of hypothermia .

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/07/2008 11:49 AM

As the both the fellow involved and the respondent are (according to the challenge) you or me, don't expect an answer anytime soon. (Anyway serve you/me right for contradicting your/my wife).

P.S. Wife now happily married to the park ranger.

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#82
In reply to #79

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/08/2008 1:41 PM

We changed their minds.

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#83

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/11/2008 11:30 AM

Ah, evening on November 4th, election day and the male is a Democrat and the wife is a Republican. He feels warm because the polls showed his candidate with a large lead. She feels cold because her candidate is losing.

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#84

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/11/2008 12:26 PM

I'm begining to suspect my previous was right.

Anyway ; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5106854.ece

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#85
In reply to #84

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/11/2008 5:13 PM

Interesting article Kris! Can't wait for the official answer when it eventually gets posted!

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#86
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Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/12/2008 4:15 AM

Glad you like, I thought the thread needed a bit of kindling. By way of experiment, I sent Del's fridge-freezer into overdrive ages ago, and he still hasn't complained of the cold.

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#87
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Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/12/2008 5:24 AM

Maybe he thinks it's just the change in the weather. Or maybe you missed Harlow by a few miles and got my home controller instead (whatever the reason, it's my wife that's complaining about the cold).

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#88
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Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/12/2008 6:39 AM

The weather's certainly been a bit quirky. I've no idea what the following is about, but it may help with your heating ;


"This is a Crossley Combined 'Lightfoot' dry air refrigerator and Otto gas engine. It might not look much like a fridge, but it was, so there. It could also provide hot water to heat the part of your premises that you're not cooling."

I imagine that our resident steam enthusiast, PWSlack, has something similar. That reminds me, I must seek out some tools for dicing with death.

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#89
In reply to #88

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/12/2008 10:04 AM

If it makes you feel any better Kris, it was a scorcher over here this summer, but in the north of Spain there was loads of flooding!

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#90
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Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/12/2008 11:14 AM

I suppose you run the daily risk of fresh oranges landing on your head as well ! I don't get it - conkers have spikes and nobody wants to eat them, but oranges are juicy, plump, succulent, tasty things, and smooth enough to caress. There's no juictice in the world !

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#91
In reply to #90

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/12/2008 2:24 PM

That's the harsh reality of it! Some days I go out without my safety hat on just for the fun of it!

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#92
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Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/12/2008 8:56 PM

Waahhhhh.....

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#93

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/16/2008 2:33 PM

Isn't the given answer contradictory ? If men have less fat (ie less insulation), and more mucle to use up their energy ("fibres are always contracting"), wouldn't they get cold first ? This extract from the link I gave earlier sounds more convincing ;

Gore-Tex :

"And women really do feel the cold more than men, but this is because they are better at conserving heat than men. Mark Newton, a scientist at W.L. Gore, the company that makes Gore-Tex, and a researcher at the University of Portsmouth, explains: "Women have a more evenly distributed fat layer and can pull all their blood back to their core organs."

However, this female heating system means that less blood flows to their hands and feet, and as a result they feel cold. So there is literal truth in the old saying cold hands, warm heart. One theory as to why women have evolved this system, says Newton, is to enable them to survive freezing temperatures. Women carry less fat and muscle mass than men, and so need a more efficient technique of protecting their core body temperature. "

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#94
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Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/16/2008 3:10 PM

At the risk of having you send me a frog, I agree with you. In the same way that a well insulated house has cold outside walls, so the outer skin of a woman is usually cooler. Meaning, of course, she conserves core heat better. Muscles are not as good for thermal resistance. There's been a ton of articles in Journal of Applied Physiology about this, and about the muscle myth.

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#95
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Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/16/2008 3:24 PM

I remember the 'frog' from somewhere . The analogy you make is good, tho' there's a slightly alarming link alongside this (BHW).

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#97
In reply to #94

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/17/2008 6:18 AM

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#96
In reply to #93

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/17/2008 6:10 AM

"Women carry less fat". What a generalisation! And structurally rather improbable, as women have proportionately lighter bones and less muscle... (perhaps even the best experts don't always write exactly what they mean?)

According to many texts, a woman of optimum weight will carry proportionately more fat than a man of optimum weight. And it will be more evenly distributed. But it is the layer of fat that we can best afford to deprive of heat, and this allows the surface temperature to be kept lower.

However, I would hesitate to judge how (if at all) this is related to people feeling the cold. The only necessary physiological basis that I can find is that, everything else being equal*, the ratio of muscle mass to surface area will determine the points at which it becomes sensible first to turn off unnecessary surface heating and subsequently to activate muscles solely for the purpose of heating (=shivering). Perhaps the prospect/actuality of these measures being activated is what determines our perception of cold - so at least the muscle mass theory makes sense.
There may also be some truth in the ideas that during our evolution it has been more important for a man to stay active and for a woman to conserve her resources for longer-term survival - this too would encourage earlier peripheral shut-down among females.

*That too would be one huge assumption

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#98
In reply to #96

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/17/2008 7:00 AM

Here's a useful link to a review article on this.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2004/00000075/00000005/art00011

There is a European Journal of Applied Physiology which seems to also have a great many articles, but I'm having difficulty accessing that.

I think most of us missed the obvious answer. There is a marked decrease in cold tolerance that accompanies aging. So, perhaps the man has merely married an elderly rich widow (which explains how he can afford a vacation trip when the rest of us can't buy gasoline), and has her out in the cold without a jacket, hoping she'll catch pneumonia and die, leaving him free to cavort with the 22 year old hottie twins who live next door.

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#99
In reply to #98

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/17/2008 10:42 AM

It looks (to my inexpert eye) like a well-researched summary. Although it is primarily directed to extreme cooling, I think it broadly confirms both the effects of withdrawal of circulation from surface fat and the relationship between muscle mass and surface area and the onset of shivering (although it's easy to miss things).

The main additional thing I noticed that it adds is confirmation of others' comments about females expressing greater sensitivity at all levels to the effects of reduced skin temperature than males; I had rather expected the response to be larger initially (to activate the withdrawal of circulation from the surface) but to be similar thereafter; but I suppose it all comes back to species survival requirements.

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#100
In reply to #96

Re: Fall Foliage: Newsletter Challenge (10/07/08)

11/17/2008 12:38 PM

"Women carry less fat and muscle mass than men"

I interpret that as 'Women carry less (fat + muscle) mass then men'.

ie - they weigh less ? I suppose it depends where you live.

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