The Y Files

Hi Moose -

I'm not so sure it's the thermometers or compact-fluorescent lightbulbs that are the real mercury concern (it could be the quality of the air we breathe):

I've accepted for a while that it's the price of admission to a modern life that we need to tolerate a certain level of toxins in the environment, kinda like that statistic for the percentage of insects that's been quoted over the years for what's in the raisin-bran cereal many of us consume.

However, living near the Adirondacks most of my life and being an occasional fisher-person since I was a kid, I've been saddened by the disappearance of fish and other life from many of its lakes and streams. My understanding is that mercury from coal-burning plants has been a major factor. Unfortunately, burning of coal looks like it's going to continue increasing, since it's cheap and plentiful here in the U.S.

Robert Kennedy Jr. has had a lot to say about this over the years, and I've admired his advocacy on this issue.

Thanks for letting me share this.

- Larry

You're absolutely right, april05. And thanks for the comment. Mercury inhalation is the primary method of exposure. I'll discuss that point in Part 2, and will talk about CFLs a bit in Part 3. Here, I wanted to setup the argument that government officials overreacted. This is a hot issue in my little corner of the world, but it also has implications for CR4ers who live elsewhere.

Hi Moose,

wanted to setup the argument that government officials overreacted

I was going to leap in and say it was over-reaction. When I was at School we all messed about with the stuff, and the quantity mentioned here didn't sound much. The first link emphasizes a point that wasn't clear (to me, anyway) in your intro ;

"Conte Middle School student will face charges for allegedly bringing liquid mercury into the school and intentionally spilling it on the floor in an apparent attempt to get a day off from school."

He took the stuff into School. That would leave the authorities not knowing how much he'd had to start with, and where he might have dumped it. Also his motive would not have been clear (and still might not be). Given the growing tendency for Students to go on murderous sprees at School, I don't think they had much choice but to investigate and take all precautions. The big question is what effect did the kid think his 'prank' would have - a day off school caused by chaos, or health damage to others. The quantity found is not in itself relevent - he planned something, and deliberately spread unknown quantities of a toxic substance, in an unknown number of places, in unknown manner of delivery (where was he when not on camera ?), and with unkown motive.

Maybe he just wanted to show off its properties?

Thanks, Kris. I've revised the introduction and, hopefully, clarified it a bit. I'll be interested to hear what you have to say about Part 2, which I posted just a little while ago.

Thanks for the update, Moose. It's an interesting story, and I'll have a peek at the Part 2 soon as pos.

Having grown up in an era when owning and playing with substantial quantities of liquid mercury, I find all this humorous as it goes to the issue of overregulation of all things misunderstood by the masses (and hence in a democracy regulated by the politicians and lawyers whose understanding of chemistry and biology by their education is extremely limited).

Most every chemist and engineer knows that Hg vapor is toxic and harmhul to the environment, but to assume that liquid mercury (which is relatively unreactive with organic materials) needs to be controlled to this degree and to make it a criminal offense is, in itself, criminal.

Control of access to chemicals and materials by government agencies (under the auspices of terrorism potential) is ludicrous and severly limits the capability of those who want to tinker to provide improved technology. Good grief, it becomes more ridiculous every day.

Having grown up in an era when.... lead was commonly used in kids toys ?

I didn't think politicos were a different group to chemists - Thatcher didn't (not that I was ever a fan of hers).

Control of access to chemicals.....try buying peroxide in bulk. Unless you're a Boris Johnson tribute act, it would take some explaining in the UK.

OK, the kid probably just wanted to make a mess and cause a fuss. A similar 'Star' did similar at an airport. If she'd twitched I'd have shot her. Over-reaction ? Possibly, but it's the 21st century.

I'm not arguing that a health risk existed, more that the kid deserves slapping down for his deliberate actions.

Hey Physicist? - If plutonium used in an atomic bomb is traceable to its source (i.e. the reactor it was born in), can the same technology be used to trace atomic mercury to its source(s)? As a "Law and Order" TV program fan, the forensic science here is very interesting to me :). Agreed - hope to hear from the Chemists out there who post here in CR4. - Larry

I rather doubt it. Unlike Plutonium, mercury has been heavily commoditised (awful word), and I believe that a great deal of the mercury in use is mixtures from various sources. That would remove any chance of the origins being traced via the concentrations of the various isotopes.

Do you really believe the forensic science they use on the TV shows ? Several people from key forensic labs have been interviewed by the newspapers and they chuckle about what is hawked as forensic science.

You are right that you cannot theoretically trace plutonium back to a specific reactor. However, I understand that weapons grade plutonium is usually produced using reactors that are specific for the purpose (and nations do not trade complete technologies for nuclear weapons production). We should also expect that the purification process will vary between plants.

So we should expect that both the isotopic mix and the trace impurities will vary according to their origins (and though, presumably, larger users such as the USA and the old Soviet Union would each have run more than one process, I can't see they would derive any immediate benefit from mixing plutonium form different sources).

It is quite easy to form dangerous levels of mercury vapor as described in the article. Putting it on the floor and having people walk through it vastly increases the surface area of the mercury and would vastly increase the vapor concentration, and spread the material around the school. The fact that the boy's house is still condemned means that the vapor levels in the house are at dangerous levels. This boy created a very dangerous situation, both in the school, and at home.

Asking "what's the big deal, since mercury is in fish and light bulbs" is inane. It's like saying "what the big deal about Chernoble, we are all exposed to background radiation all the time". The concentration of mercury in fish is thousands or millions times less that what what this boy exposed his family and schoolmates to.

The only possible over-reaction that I see is criminal prosecution. It seems unlikely that the boy had criminal intent. I would guess that he did not realize the danger, and simply wanted to show his buddies the "cool" properties of this liquid metal. After all, the greatest exposure seems to be to the boy himself, and his family.

50 years ago, this would have been a huge over reaction. We simply did not know the dangers of mercury poisoning back then, as well as we know it now.

As others have posted, I played with mercury too, as a kid, and lived to tell the tale. Even if I was exposed to dangerous levels, the symptoms would probably have been dismissed as a cold or the flu. Just because we all lived through these exposures (out of ignorance) does not mean that we should say that exposure to mercury is no big deal. We now know that even small exposures can cause damage.

This danger was simply not known years ago. Every doctor's office had a mercury manometer for measuring blood pressure!

Here's a horror story: I worked at a place that used to use many mercury manometers (years before I started), and the old timers told me this story. They periodically would collect the used mercury, and distill it to remove impurities. Scary enough. One day, the still exploded. People were covered with mercury, in their hair, everywhere. The vapor levels were high enough to coat everybody's gold jewelry, making it look silver instead of gold. The solution? They just collected all the jewelry, and baked it in an oven it to vaporize the mercury! Nobody thought anything about it.

Did anybody get sick? It's hard to tell. Since mercury poisoning was pretty much unknown, I'm sure that any symptoms were passed off as the flu.

Tad

First, contrary to your statement, the symptoms of mercury poisoning have been very well known for well over 100-years (e.g. Lewis Carroll's mad hatter ~1865). Certainly the science teacher at my high-school (1950s) gave very precise instructions about what was and was not sensible. Either the story dates back several generations prior to your old-timers, or they were woefully ignorant - but I suspect it is more likely they either taking the piss of enjoying using a graphic description to make a point (did they ever send you to stores to get a long weight?). But bad practice persists... (and still people live unharmed to tell the tale)

Then, spreading mercury around on shoes is most unlikely to result in very high concentrations in the atmosphere, because the surface self-passivates quite rapidly. .

If (and I'm not certain we know this) there was a genuinely serious problem at the boy's home, it was more likely due to his dropping some of the mercury onto at hot surface than coming back from the school on his shoes.

True, symptoms of severe mercury poisoning have been well known for a long time. I'm sure your science teacher gave you good information on common sense rules in dealing with mercury, as acceptable in the fifties. He probably also had a wristwatch with radium painted hands, thought nothing of leaded gasoline, painted his house with lead containing paint, saw no need to handle benzene in a fume hood, probably thought the X-Ray machines in shoe stores were pretty cool, asbestos was a perfectly good building material and that smoking was just a bad habit.

Pretty much everybody thought that way back then. Today, well, I think we know a bit more. So, it is likely that what you were told was acceptable back in the 50's may not be acceptable now. Low level exposure was more likely to be tolerated, as long as no gross symptoms occurred.

It is pretty well established that even relatively small amounts of spilled mercury can result in significant levels of mercury vapor in enclosed areas. Walking through it increases the surface area, and thus the speed of vaporization. Even if the surface "self-passivates" quickly (I'm not sure how valid this is), walking through it would constantly expose fresh metal to the surface, increasing vaporization.

That being said, was this a big scary toxic spill that endangered the kids? Probably not. The school is probably well ventilated, the exposure time was short, and the school did all the correct things to mitigate the situation. Accidental mercury spills are not uncommon in schools.

Is it possible that a major problem could have occurred? I'd have to say yes. There are a number of scenarios that could have resulted in serious poisoning.

I'd say the school acted appropriately.

Tad

I used to play with "puddles" of mercury in the palms of my hands.

If i remember correctly, I was in a waiting room (i believe a barbershop) where there was a variety of toys for us kiddies to play with. One of which (can't remember exactly what it was) must have been broken, but I was playing with a puddle of mercury slightly larger than a silver dollar, on the table, floor, hands, books etc. It was fun stuff. I have no effects (that I'm aware of) and blood work checks me out to be healthy as a young race horse.

The world is an over-sensitized place now-a-days, and i suppose it was bound to happen. After all doesn't EVERYTHING give us cancer now?

In My opinion, yes they overreacted, but they have to now, or its someones @$$.

Quite - and I took a quick look for sources of this amount of mercury in my home:
About right: a "mercury maze" (child's tilting puzzle),
About half: an old bath thermometer, and
(massively exceeding this amount) a mercury barometer.

Considering your youthful exposure, we were told not to hold it in our hands; the explanation given was that it can directly diffuse through skin, but I also heard that movement across the skin could cause the oxide to agglommerate, creating an oxide-free surface whence the mercury can evaporate. Of course, that's the activity that the "environmental consultant" considered acceptable.
And... what sort of society is it that considers it acceptable to use a surveillance camera to trace the perpetrator of what is in essence a minor misdemeanor? I suppose it serves us right for allowing such people to be treated as experts? But he's right about one thing - I really should be doing better things with my time than pontificating where I have no influence...

I was a young once and I played with mercury. At that time there was no public knowledge of the hazards of the substance. Now that there is to many to quick to condemn the young man. He may not really understand the hazards. Even if told the hazards what is he to believe. We tell the of the hazards of drinking alcohol then go to the frig and get a beer.

The young man said that he got the mercury from a farm near by. Nothing has been said about that. Of what use is mercury in farming? If it has a legitimate use what about the responsibility of the farmer to secure these hazardous substances?

Good to hear from you, ozzb. I'm wondering about why mercury might be on farm, too. (I pose that question in Part 2.)

I was just informed that farmers would mix it with sulfur and burn it to fumigate barns.

The guy who told me this claimed he still does it!!!

He's about to get a visit from the health authorities.

If the school is over 40 years old and had any kind of chemistry lab a pint or more of Mercury was standard issue. Pour it in a beaker and float a nail on it. Fill a closed tube and make a barometer.

The clean up could have been needed for years. I'm sure many students, of my generation's, carpets at home and school had a teaspoon or more of mercury lost in them.

I wonder how many tons of school mercury ended up in landfills via carpets?

I see an over reaction to a normal problem. Training issue yes, criminal issue? Then how many generations of US students are just as guilty?

Brad

I'm surprised no one mentioned amalam!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalgam_(dentistry)

Anyone who doesn't have some of these fillings?

Do I be, or do I not be, that is the deep philosophical question;
Whether it be nobler in the thread to suffer
The slings and arrows of being outrageously ignored,
Or to cite quotation against a void of interest...

In short: extract from post #3: "Neither did my mouthful of mercury amalgam..."

Perhaps sometime I do be skimming to fast...

The mercury dental amalgam, is "for the most part" inert once mixed as an amalgam. It's mixed with multiple other metals, which when bonded form a "fairly" harmless alloy. I say "fairly" because I'm sure many people out there on both sides of the debate have reasons for thinking either way. But If mercury amalgams are a "hazardous" form of mercury, then millions of us should have mercury poisoning (including myself). On the topic, I no longer opt for amalgam fillings anymore when i have any dental work done, I now choose the much less sightly white "porcelain-style" fillings if heaven for bid i need a filling.

"And today, children, we will come to know the tart tingling sensation of cyanide gas when gently released at 2 ppm into the atmosphere" ....quoth Quasimodo, my former high school chem teacher whose hump would switch sides depending on his state of mind....followed by "Mercury, ummmm, delicious. Two grams has the potential to de-worm this entire class"..........

I am forever indebted to him for my sense of humour, a major portion of which was dedicated to his exiting this dimension.

THAT IS IT!! THAT IS IT!! THAT is what happened to DILBERT!! Mercury exposure!!

Dilbert - The Knack