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Relativity and Cosmology

This is a Blog on relativity and cosmology for engineers and the like. You are welcome to comment upon or question anything said on my website (http://www.relativity-4-engineers.com), in the eBook or in the snippets I post here.

Comments/questions of a general nature should preferably be posted to the FAQ section of this Blog (http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/316/Relativity-Cosmology-FAQ).

A complete index to the Relativity and Cosmology Blog can be viewed here: http://cr4.globalspec.com/blog/browse/22/Relativity-and-Cosmology"

Regards, Jorrie

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6 comments

Paradoxes of Relativity Part 3c - Ladder Paradox (iii)

Posted January 04, 2007 3:15 AM by Jorrie

In Ladder Paradox (ii) we viewed events from the perspective of the box. When the events are viewed from the arrow's inertial frame, figure 4 of the previous post is essentially just rotated so that the arrow is horizontal and the box is tilted the other way, as shown in figure 7. The box now moves at -0.8c relative to the arrow.

Figure 7

The 10ft box is projected onto the arrow's coordinates as a 6ft long box, with the rear end clock desynchronized by 8ns, as indicated. Events at the same special location again are on the same vertical lines and simultaneous events are on the same horizontal lines. Space-time movements are as before, illustrated in figure 8 for event C.

Figure 8

The change in reference frame and the inescapable difference in "what is vertical", translating to "what is viewed as being in the same spatial location at a given time" causes the perception that the box is far too short to hold the arrow. It's also the cause of the effect that events B and C are swapped in temporal order (compared to the box view).

When we carry the argument to its conclusion, the near side of the box will take 18.75ns to reach the tail of the arrow, as shown in figure 9.

Figure 9

We now have a complete rationale for the timings of events that were shown in Ladder Paradox (i) and it is clear that the timing is a matter of how clocks are synchronized in inertial frames. In a way, it is the different clock synchronizations that cause the apparent length contraction.

To measure the length of a moving object, one must read the x-coordinate of both ends simultaneously and do a subtraction of x-coordinates. Surely, if the definition of simultaneity varies with relative velocity, inertial observers in relative motion will not agree on length measurements.

And that's all there is to it! A more technical treatment of the relativity of simultaneity is available on the website Relativity 4 Engineers. In part 4 of "Paradoxes of Relativity" we will have a quick look at some other interesting ones.


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Guest
#1

Re: Paradoxes of Relativity Part 3c - Ladder Paradox (iii)

01/07/2007 3:01 PM

Hey Jorrie,

This is smooth, but I'm afraid its too smooth for my liking!

You are saying that it all depends on how clocks are synchronized. You are also saying that clocks should be synchronized a-la Einstein. So why do we have to believe Einstein's method? I'm sure there must be other ways to synchronize clock that does not lead to these paradoxes.

Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Paradoxes of Relativity Part 3c - Ladder Paradox (iii)

01/09/2007 3:59 AM

Guest, you wrote: "So why do we have to believe Einstein's method? I'm sure there must be other ways to synchronize clock that does not lead to these paradoxes."

Yep, there are other ways, but the only ones that produce consistent results, give synchronization that is indistinguishable from Einstein's method. Two examples are: slow transport of clocks synchronized in one location and the firing of high speed material particles (with a known speed) between clocks.

Regards, Jorrie

__________________
"Curiosity has its own reason for existence" -- Albert Einstein
Guest
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Paradoxes of Relativity Part 3c - Ladder Paradox (iii)

03/03/2008 2:23 PM

OK, let's modify our arrow-in-a-box experiment. Now we have a linear chain of LED+photodiods (couples) with equal distances 'a' between them. The light beam of each couple can be interrupted by a fast moving plate, which is 2.1*a long (when it is still). Now we make a simple electric circuit: if only one couple disrupted -- nothing happens, but if two or more -- siren sounds. In still reference frame of opto-couples a very fast moving plate is short, shorter than 1*a, so no siren sounds. But from the point of view of the moving plate the distance between couples is shorter than 1*a, while the plate is 2.1*a long, so we definitely disrupt two or more light beams. Hence a siren must sound. But how could it be that there are two such different result of the same experiment?

Guru
Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - Retired South Africa - Member - The Rainbow-nation Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Relativity & Cosmology Popular Science - Cosmology - The Big Picture!

Join Date: May 2006
Location: 25.9S, 28.1E
Posts: 2623
Good Answers: 12
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Paradoxes of Relativity Part 3c - Ladder Paradox (iii)

03/04/2008 12:33 AM

Hi guest. This is an interesting question, with a simple solution (if I understand your scenario correctly), but before attempting an answer, let me verify the scenario with a diagram.

Is this more or less the setup that you intended? The green (static) plate always interrupts 2 or 3 couples, while a fast moving plate, Lorentz contracted to x-dimension shorter than a, can only interrupt 0 or 1 couple. Note that this is a space-space diagram, not a spacetime diagram.

If my interpretation is correct, would you mind if I use this as a "challenge question" in a separate thread to attract more comments (before answering it)?

Jorrie

PS: if this question is answered somewhere in the literature, it may perhaps not be a viable challenge question...(?)

__________________
"Curiosity has its own reason for existence" -- Albert Einstein
Guest
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Paradoxes of Relativity Part 3c - Ladder Paradox (iii)

03/04/2008 12:49 PM

Hi Jorrie,

Excellent illustration (sure this is a space-space diagram). This is exactly my question. Depending on reference frame, the green "plate" is either longer or shorter than the distance between sensors, and we should be able to detect which way it is. Am I right?

Thanks,

my name is Vladimir.

Guest
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Paradoxes of Relativity Part 3c - Ladder Paradox (iii)

03/04/2008 12:54 PM

Of course, you may use my question as a "challenge". Do whatever you want with it.

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