Challenge Questions

You should take the option of staying for a year. Venus orbits the sun once every 224.7 earth days, however, it rotates around its axis very slowly such that it makes one full rotation every 243 earth days. Now if we define a day on Venus as being the time that it makes a full rotation about its axis (sidereal rotation period) and a year on Venus as being the time it makes a full orbit around the sun then its day is longer then its year. You would therefore make more money by staying a shorter period of time if you chose the year option. Off course if you really valued the Venus experience more than money then you may choose to stay for that extra bit longer and foregoe the extra cash, after all, getting to Venus is certainly worth a lot more than a measly $1 or $2 million, however, with average tremperatures of around 462 degrees celsius, atmospheric pressure 92 X that of earth and clouds of sulphuric acid it may not be all that healthy to venture outside.

You're probably right, in that the question seems to be about the definition of a day/night on Venus. The part I don't understand is why the question specifically says "a small capsule". Although it indicates all daily comfort requirements are met _{(how the heck do you log-on to CR4 each day !)} , the size of the capsule is mentioned as if it's important. Would the lower gravity (.907) cause a person to grow into some weird shape over the course of a year. A bit far fetched, but apart from madness I can't yet see where else the question might be going. It rotates the 'wrong' way, but I'm not sure that's a problem.

I'll go with your notion, BobD - A Venusian could be longer than it's year, depending on how you define them. It's Solar day is 117 of Earths, it's rotation against the stars is 243, and it's 'year' is 225 days. In a sense, a year gets you more money/day.

Now if we define a day on Venus as being the time ..........

I do not agree with you. You can not define as you wish. The definition of the day is period between two Sun rises, as we use it here.

Thus, I do not agree with GA too, though I can not rate it now.

You are assuming the question refers to a Venus year and a Venus day!

"getting to Venus is certainly worth a lot more than a measly $1 or $2 million"

You think? Why?

I think the previous answers simply assumed this, but it's worth being explicit: the rotation of Venus is opposite to its orbital direction, so the solar day is somewhat over half a year. However, even if we assume that "all the comforts of home" includes atmosphere, workspace, amenities and visitors, my preferences would still be:

1) An Earth day ($1 Million for a day)
2) A Venusian solar day ($1 Million/117 Earth-days, or $8565/Earth-day)
3) A Venus year ($2 Million for 225 Earth-days, or $8903/Earth-day)
4) An Earth year ($2 Million for 365 Earth days)
Even if we add travelling time, which amplifies the difference between the effective rates, life is too short to waste on uninteresting ways of making money. Maybe the answer would have been different if my pension had been with Equitable Life (though with that sort of luck, the offer would probably turn out to be in Jamaica Dollars).

One year as a day of Venus is smaller than a year

A Venus day is 117 Earth days. A Venus year is 225 Earth days. Would it really be worth staying cooped up on Venus for an extra 108 Earth-days for 10,000 US Dollars? (The voice didn't say US dollars, and you should never commit until you have checked the terms). In any case, you need to take into account the impact on your career - unless your career path naturally includes a 225 day break on Venus.

Get a life - choose to stay an Earth day (if that is unacceptable, you can reconsider).

Day is smaller than year for earth too!

Orbital period is 224.7 earth days

Sidereal day 243.01 earth days

inclenation 3.3 degrees.

But axis is maybe perpendicular to plane of rotation. (no sunrise -sunset)

If a day is measured from sunrise to sunrise a day will exceed the orbital period by xxx.

Rotation is retrograde. (Opposite to earth).

If taken as sidereal day a Venus day will be 19 earth days longer than a Venus year.

I will choose the $2m option on both.

how is this a challenge? all it is is an opinion, their isn't anything to figure out.

imo this is a retarded challenge.

btw ill choose the 2 mil

Without going into any maths, Maybe it would be worth working out travel time! For economic reasons, if after a Venus day the Earth was closer, it would mean less travel time coming home! If after a Venus year, the two planets are at opposite sides of the solar system, it may take longer to get home than a Venus year!

Then again I maybe totally wrong! Who knows without doing the maths where the respective planets will be!

I've had a quick play on 'WorldWide Telescope" and it takes 16 Earth months for the two planets to get close! So depending on the velocity of the space ship that brings you home, I would be in two minds which offer to take!

If you are travelling (rather than going and arriving by the same magic as you woke to find yourself on Venus), the trajectory between the planets would approximate an ellipse, and the location at the Venus end would be opposed to the location at the Earth end. The take-off and landing times would be about half of an average year apart - or about 150 days.

That means you are looking for Venus exactly opposite the Earth at a time 150-days prior to landing. This happens once every 584 days (~19 months).

From Wikipedia:

"A Venusian sidereal day thus lasts more than a Venusian year (243 versus 224.7 Earth days). However, the length of a solar day on Venus is significantly shorter than the sidereal day; to an observer on the surface of Venus the time from one sunrise to the next would be 116.75 days".^[

^{So, it would seem that the question would be, Whose definition of a "day" and a "year" are we going to use?" Either way 2 million dollars is a nice sum for less than an earth year's "work".}

Looks like you guys have the astronomy all figured out. I'd take the $1M for 1 "Venus day", although if she is as hot as you say, One Year on Venus may be quite enjoyable!

A year on Venus is about 225 Earth days; I'd take the $1 million and go home.

Choose the one day, because No one will be alive at the one year mark, as there is no Vehicle yet designed that can stand the pressure over time combination. So far the longest lived probe to the planet has lasted an hour! So assuming they can build a vehicle that can last a day.. the pressure over a year will cause creep, stress and strain, and collapse...the metal is like plastic at that kind of pressure, even spherical... Anyone taking the 2 Million.. will be donating it to their relatives and a charity of their choice.

Chris

The pressure is approximately 900 psi

The temperature is approximately 875 Deg F

The wind, while slow, will be amplified by the pressure, temperature, and particulate, and will cut like a blow torch

not to mention the possibly corrosive atmosphere...

No one will be alive for a day, let alone a year... forget it... not on the surface of the planet, without a magnetic plasma bottle to control this environment.

Chris

Dear TMF

YBYA

reidcbc25@aol.com

Join Date: Mar 2008

Kris...Mar 2007 Double trouble!!!

I'm inspired Mr Brain ! Even my current quote-line would seem to indicate a separated-at-birth type event !!!

Jeepers! Here is a question with no right or wrong answer, yet look at all the discussion!

The question actually has nothing to do with how long a day on Venus is versus a day on Earth, or how long a year on Venus is versus how long a year on Earth is. At least, it has nothing to do with it in an absolute sense. The question was: which option would you choose? Toomuchfun and Bricktop answered that question (and get a "good answer" vote for it.) A "guest" answered it, too, but because he/she is a guest, misspelled a few words and was somewhat demeaning in calling this a "retarded" challenge, no GA vote.

The question and topic is really over deferred rewards. Would you take a smaller, immediate reward over a larger, deferred reward? Much study has been done on this subject in animals and in humans. Here are a couple of links on the subject.

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v7/n10/full/nn1004-1023.html

http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/26/51/13213

In this case, we engineers were, much like Alice, led down a rabbit hole by curiosity. The ensuing discussion about the possibility of space travel, the effects of the position of the planets and the length of days/years on Venus have as much bearing on the subject (Would you pick A or would you pick B?) as Alice's experience at the Tea Party. Happy Un-birthday to you all!

Now, having said that, I will allow that for some of us, the answers to these questions, especially about the passage of time, may have some bearing on which option you would choose.

In closing, I will quote Lewis Carroll and apply it solely to myself:

"You are old, Father William," the young man said,
"And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head--
Do you think, at your age, it is right?"

"In my youth," Father William replied to his son,
"I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again."

I like bp01's approach: don't think of Venus vs. Earth days, but as long-term vs. short-term rewards. We could even think of maximizing deferred rewards.

With that in mind, I'd realize that my captors/employers have figured out how to build a shelter that can survive the Venusian environment, I will be provided for during my stay, and I won't be spending my paycheck on Venus. I'd take the 1 year, $1 million deal.

Then I'd ask if I'd be staying for a Venus year or an Earth year, and how often they pay their regular employees on Earth. If I'm staying for an Earth year, I'd ask them to deposit in a savings account either $83,333 for a monthly pay period, or $19, 230 for a weekly pay period. If I'm staying for a Venus year, the deposits will be $134,048 for a monthly pay period, or $31250 for a weekly pay period.

I know regular savings accounts don't pay as much in interest as other investments, but with the size of each deposit, by the time I get back, I will have well more than $1 million!

Are you kidding? The Venus year, of course.

Ken Leigh

The question does not specify if the length of a day is measured in Earth time or Venus time. There is also no mention of the amount of time (Earth or Venus) that it takes to get there or return.

Since I woke up and became an instant millionaire without spending any time or effort, why would it be beneficial to spend another year (Earth or Venus) to make another million? Who knows, I could choose one day and take a million bucks then instantly awake on another planet the next day with the same deal. Who knows what my earning potential would be if I were engaged in another unspecified activity. This is a very poorly worded question designed to solicit data analysis from engineers without regard for the definition of variables.

0 time & effort = 1 million

1 year time & effort = 1 million

I look at this as an opportunity cost question, not an analytical comparison of the length of a day on Venus or Earth. With the available facts there is no other choice than "take the million and run". This is why engineers don't make good business managers.

quote from NASA:

Venus sluggishly rotates on its axis once every 243 Earth days, while it orbits the Sun every 225 days - its day is longer than its year! Venus sluggishly rotates on its axis once every 243 Earth days, while it orbits the Sun every 225 days - its day is longer than its year!

I'll take the $2m for a year

Tell me where to find this NASA data and I'll see if I can get it corrected. Unless otherwise stated, a day is the time between one midday and the next. The 243 days is sidereal day, or the time Venus takes to go spin once (relative to distant stars). The proper Venusan day is about 117 Earth days.

From Wikipedia:

"Venus rotates once every 243 days—by far the slowest rotation period of any of the major planets. A Venusian sidereal day thus lasts more than a Venusian year (243 versus 224.7 Earth days). However, the length of a solar day on Venus is significantly shorter than the sidereal day; to an observer on the surface of Venus the time from one sunrise to the next would be 116.75 days."

Part of the confusion is the difference between a sidereal day (1 rotation with respect to the stars) and a solar day (1 rotation with respect to the Sun). Here on Earth, the difference between a sidereal day and a solar day is only about 4 minutes, which we don't really notice from day to day. On Venus the difference is obvously quite large (243 vs about 117 Earth-days).

Another part of the confusion depends on what the basis is for the 'day' and the 'year' -- measured by Venus standards, Earth standards, or by the home planet of the aliens who abducted you?

And this leaves off the question of what these $1 or $2 million star bucks are actually worth. Maybe not even worth a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

As a Venusian year and day are not too different in duration, obviously the $2 million deal is better. But how can the capsule be cooled to 21 deg. Centigrade over a period of a year when the outside temperature is 450 degrees ? A risky proposition.

There's no money in the world that makes me stay there for only a second!

The information on Google is conflicting, will any member residing on on Venus give us the correct info, I will give that post a GA. (Hi AshesOnVenus give it a go please)

Some sites reported that the rotation is perpendicular to the plane of the orbit.

If true Venus will experience two rotations and defining a day would be impossible.

Analyzing the question

"You awake inside a small capsule sitting on the surface of Venus"

Does awake implies sunrise?

does small capsule imply you are miniaturised?

does the capsule have windows?

Venus who?

does small speaker implies a cell?

Don't Venus use jammers or other protection?

If the sites say that the axis of rotation is perpendicular to the plane of the orbit, that is close to exact - Venus's axis is only between 2 and 3-degrees away from being orthogonal to the orbital plane. You could also write that "Venus's orbital and rotational axes are within 3 degrees of each other". Either way, its days are even better defined than those on your Earth, and the tropical and polar regions are all very much smaller than for your Earth.

I can't tell you anything about your hypothetical capsule, but in any case your earth-eyes wouldn't see very far through this atmosphere.

Presumably the small speaker is one of my Venusian helpers. They are very small. As you might expect, the value of the Venus dollar is in proportion to their size - so there are approximately $V100 to the Japanese Yen.

Jam is not a very effective protection against the sulfurous atmosphere.

Love and kisses

Cupid

One year on venus is the right option to go for.

Venus is the second-closest planet to the Sun orbiting it every 224.7 Earth days.

Venus rotates once every 243 days—by far the slowest rotation period of any of the major planets.

So , in simple way $1 million for 243 Earth days (One Day of Venus)

$2 million for 224.7 Earth days (One year of Venus)

Choice is Yours :)

Monu Purohit

I will prefer to stay for couple of years.

A Venusian year is 224+ earth days while a Venusian day is 244+ earth days so your better off staying a year for $2 Million than sticking around for an extra 20 days for 1 million.

Take the million and go, lifes to short to get greedy for the second million. Besides, what else do you and your familly need that one million can't buy!!

The terms are to vague and therfore open to interpretation so take the money and run LOL

The question says "which option should YOU choose?" As for ME, I would take the third option which has of course not been offered, and that is neither. Is more money necessarily a better choice always, or any 'unearned money at all desirable? (Even Cyberfool in #48 got a GA for making the same third choice and suing for fifty million dollars!) I'm quite content with what little I have, thank you, and there are further reasons for declining the offer.

I'm more comfortable at temperatures somewhat greater than 70 deg F, and would certainly want some variation around the mean. The comforts of MY home are such that I prefer to get away from time to time, which my captors would not permit.

I'm really amazed that so many folk seem willing to spend any length of time "in a small capsule" for any amount of filthy lucre! "Sufficient food and water" sounds rather like prison fare, and I'm not inclined to bite.

Whoever is responsible for taking me to Venus (drugged or miniaturised or whatever) had better bring me back pronto and intact, without the knowledge of the local immigration authorities, considering that the validity of my passport expired a long long time ago. And they can keep their million dollars.

Both this thread and the Headlights one somehow reminded me of an old song "I started on a journey ... to a little town called Morrow ...." probably sung by the Kingston Trio. There were some lines like "... You should have gone to Morrow yesterday and back today ..." I remember getting muddled trying to figure out the logic. I can no longer recall the words, but I'm hoping that anyone on CR4 who does can enlighten me on whether the arithmetic was consistent (or deliberately not so)?

=TeeSquare=

Quote:

"(Even Cyberfool in #48 got a GA for making the same third choice and suing for fifty million dollars!)"

What am I, chopped liver? - - - "Even Cyberfool"?

Quote:

"Whoever is responsible for taking me to Venus (drugged or miniaturised or whatever) had better bring me back pronto and intact, without the knowledge of the local immigration authorities, considering that the validity of my passport expired a long long time ago. And they can keep their million dollars."

My Passport is Valid for another 7 Months (without renewal), but I didn't expect to have My Papers checked by Venusians... I'd much rather be taken to Mars I'd weigh less, and only need a moderate spacesuit to be able to wander around, and explore.

I think you already know you can't afford to be too sensitive around here.
The only relevant new input that I have discovered since my post #6 is your suggestion of suing, and try counting the GA's that have been awarded since then. And to crown it all no-one has given my post a single GA.

I'm as Sensitive as the next 200 pound Mechanic/Inventor/Genius, Humble too...

And to crown it all no-one has given my post a single GA.

I'll withdraw my negating vote if you pay me.

Don't feel bad. The overwhelming response of people who were nit-picking about the relative lengths of Venus years and days was quite discouraging. The operative action here is called 'Read the fine print'. But even that assumes that you are dealing with an entity with some semblence of morals. What kind of person or thing transports you to Venus in an unconscious state without your prior consent? Doesn't sound like NASA, sounds more like Osama Bin Laden. Therefore: 1. Bail out if possible, sue if given the opportunity. 2. Agree to the shortest period of time, if that is the only option, and hope you are dealing with honorable people. 3. Beyond that, "Abandon all hope Ye who enter here...". You will never survive with your sanity intact. Of course, what proof do you have that you are really on Venus? I doubt that anyone can distinguish a 10% reduction in gravity in a uniform field. You could be at the depest part of the ocean, 7 miles down. Either that or Venus presents the same ultimate consideration: What guarantee do you have that your 'capsule' will survive that long? Ask the Russians how long their probe lasted. It looks like the odds favor insanity or death by failure of life support. So who has a real choice, anyway?

How funny is it that I looked at your picture of Mars this morning for maybe 30 seconds.. and never noticed the Walmart.. I was focusing on the rocks... I guess I hadn't had my morning coffee yet... what's this life coming to, where i have to check my CR4 before I have coffee?!

Chris

good work!

CR4, an addiction stronger than coffee? We could get a reputation! Oh, what will the ladies in the quilting circle think!



Yeeeeaaaahhh, RIGHT!

If the days and years are "Venus", then take the $2 million (for a shorter elapsed time). If they are "Earth" days and years, then the $1 million is a better deal.

Ah-hem,

What is wrong with all you techie-types??? The answer is $2 million! It seems *SO* obvious to me... :^) "All the comforts of home..."

Sheesh!

The Light is Green!

one year for two million.

a year or a day in the life; it's all the same.

I think i would choose the first option. Stay one day and take the $1 Million. Why stay in a capsule for a whole year and cash in 2million when you can't even use it for the whole year. I would rather take the Million dollar and come back to earth and invest the money in my savings account and cash in on the interest for however long i can. For all you know the present value of $1 million will be worth more than $2 million in the future. Cash today is better than money in the future!!!!!

Spirit of the Chalange was purely to think about the duration of year and the day on Venus.

But, I do not know, why we members go in many other non relevent allied matters like, "it is difficult to stay alive on Venus", "it is like prison", "Passport and VISA for Venus" , "Sue whoever has taken me to Venus" and so many.

"...small capsule.....all the comforts of home"

It's not possible.

Anyway, if 'home' means Earth, why the heck would I want to come back ?

Eventually You'll run out of "Crisps"... And if You can get delivered to Venus, Why Not ask about other Planets, or Moons?

AH, to See Jupiter rise from the Horizon of one of it's Moons... Or Sample the Atmospheric Gases of Uranus.

i would stay for the year as i would get home quicker (with $2m) than if i stayed for a day which is longer by over 18 days.

a night on venus is a lifetime on mercury

anyone familiar with this?

I'd rather have a Night with Halle Berry, I don't mind that She is older than Me...

Isn't Venus a Woman in the WWF?

OH MY, Halle is scheduled to play a character named "Venus Johnson" in a Movie titled "Nappily Ever Yours" (2010 release), What a fluke/coincidence...

You would be better off going for a year to get the $2mil. The orbit of venus takes less time to complete than its rotation. I believe that it is 225 and 245 days respectively.

this question must apply to all the lonely anal retentative people that don't have friends, family or the need to talk to anyone.

I Prefer to stay in my bedroom with my girlfrend rather staying somewhere......

How did You get on CR4 with a Girlfriend?!?

I would report You to the Administrators if I wasn't wallowing in Jelousy, & Admiration...

Oh, heavens to betsy, I would have trouble staying for one day. I would be bored out of my skull.

Stay for the Venusian year and take the $2 million. Due to the slow, backwards rotation of Venus, the Venusian year is shorter than its day!

Steve Pulliam, amateur astronomer.

The practical day if you are on the planet is the solar day (sunrise to sunrise). Because the rotation is backwards, this cannot be longer than the year.

_______________________

Amateur: we always hurt the ones we love

If the rotation is backward - will i arrive at home 245 earth-days (one venus-day) before i went to venus?

Its easy,

Men are Mars, Women from Venus.. I would stay a day, and get the heck out of there !

If One found ones self waking up in a capsual on venus and being given the choice of one day or one year, you would certainly have to consider the following;

A; If you just awoke in a capsual on venus then you were abducted! and your primery goal would be to get home safely,failing this secondry goal would be avenge the abductors!

B; The time of departure would not be relevent to cash bonuses but to the current orbits of Venus and the speed of which you travel by. the earths orbit would be the same as it now or in one earth year as time on our planet is measured by the orbit of our planet around the sun so in one year the earth would be in the same place.

However Venus has smaller orbit to us and dependind upon the current position of venus within this orbit would be factor to consider. you see when the two planets are closest together in their orbits and given the current speeds of our space craft