Login | Register


Electrical Components

The Electrical Components Blog is the place for conversation and discussion about power generation, distribution and protection; connectors and relays; sensors, RFID & passive components; and magnetics and transformers. Here, you'll find everything from application ideas, to news and industry trends, to hot topics and cutting edge innovations. This blog is inspired by the Electrical Components newsletter from GlobalSpec, which you can subscribe to here.

Previous in Blog: Your Greatest Troubleshooting Feat   Next in Blog: Why Do Industrial Accidents Happen?
Close

Comments Format:






Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







20 comments

Does RFID Scare You?

Posted August 09, 2009 8:25 AM

In the not so distant future, virtually every packaged product that you purchase could have an RFID sensor on board. This would allow automatic checkout at the retail stand, but could also be covertly used to track the product and its use in your home or office. Does this raise privacy concerns for you, or do you trust others to not abuse the technology?

The preceding article is a "sneak peek" from Electrical Components, a newsletter from GlobalSpec. To stay up-to-date and informed on industry trends, products, and technologies, subscribe to Electrical Components today.


Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
2
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Defreestville, NY
Posts: 642
Good Answers: 48
#1

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/09/2009 12:29 PM

First of all, any technology that can be abused will be abused.

Secondly, if RFID scares the Feds then yes, we should be concerned.

__________________
Enjoy every sandwich - Warren Zevon
Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brecksville, OH
Posts: 1362
Good Answers: 17
#2

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/09/2009 8:46 PM

This technology gives me the shivers because it could be used to ID any person, place or item on the planet and allow tracking of virtually anyone or anything a government or an individual wishes. If individuals were forced by their governments or other superior to carry such an RFID tag, it could eliminate any privacy an individual can have, with the possible exception of their private thoughts. There are way too many possible abuses with such a technology in spite of the multitude of possible good, honorable end-uses. Sure it could be used to find kidnapped children, sure it could be used to prevent shoplifting, and on and on, but as the first poster noted, if a technology can be abused, it will be.

__________________
"Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" : Will Rogers
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 932
Good Answers: 22
#4
In reply to #2

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/10/2009 2:09 AM

Aqua doc,

How about those other gadgets they put on our products that cause problems for thieves. They are supposed to be removed or disabled after puchase.

Got a shirt with RFID? Microwave it.

I think the RFID Scanner business will be brisque for a while. People will be running around their homes and workplaces hunting those little buggers down so they can kill them or return them to the store with a demand for removal or a refund.

Jon

Guru
Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brecksville, OH
Posts: 1362
Good Answers: 17
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/10/2009 7:42 AM

The problem I see is that the size of the tags has gotten so small they can be inserted into items without your knowledge.

__________________
"Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" : Will Rogers
Off Topic (Score 3)
Power-User
United States - Member - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Coastal Louisiana. Well-center survey.
Posts: 215
Good Answers: 17
#3

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/10/2009 1:49 AM

I have been concerned about the implications of tracking almost anything using RFID tagging since my introduction to this technology in 1998. I was wondering for a decade now when the rest of the world was going to be enlightened to this technology and raise concerns regarding it. I believe that the current RFID technology requires a large electromagnetic field to be placed in close proximity to the device for it to derive its power from that field and essentially "wake up". In the not too distant future, the effective range will be lengthened.

THe immediate concerns that I have involve such devices being installed into items that may contain sensitive information and could be unknowingly scanned while these items are carried on one's person in public places. I believe that there are companies already making wallets and purses with built-in shielding to prevent such an unknowing scan.

Like any technology, there will be people who will exploit it in an attempt to profit: legally or illegally.

Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 684
Good Answers: 27
#6

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/10/2009 9:10 PM

The nominal range of security RFID setups is about 300 feet.

The inventor of RFID is also a developer of biomedical microstimulator technology: injectable stuff no surgery required. As per this article 1999. Low profile stimulator implant tech for research in "freely moving animals" is often powered by an external transmitter, and it isn't clear to me what the limits on range are. Presumably, the range is dependent on transmitter power.

The possibility of a covert, injectable weapon along these lines is a bit scarier than simple tracking, IMHO. If they can track you, it's bad, but if they can mess with your nervous system as well....

2
Power-User
United States - Member - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Coastal Louisiana. Well-center survey.
Posts: 215
Good Answers: 17
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 2:01 AM

I was a bit rushed when I made my initial post so, here is my two-cents worth.

I also believe the range is a definite issue. The current effective range of an RFID tag is limited by two things. First is it's ability to efficiently derive sufficient power from its surroundings for a transmission of data.

The tag effectively "scours" its surroundings picking up electro-magnetic fields (EMF) and converting them to usable power. Currently, RFID readers radiate an EMF thru a coil that is passed in close proximity to the RFID tag. The technology behind scouring for energy is becoming more efficient as we speak. There is a cell phone under development that can run in standby mode indefinitely by scouring energy from its surroundings, i.e., fluorescent lights, WIFI access points, TV and radio broadcasts, etc.. So, it is just a matter of time before a RFID tag will be transmitting continually and not just when a reader is passed in close proximity to it.

Second, is it's transmitting power. The tag's ability to communicate is limited by it's output power. RFID tags will become more efficient transmitters but what is more important is the development of its intelligence. I foresee RFID tags resembling modems rather than a simple transceiver. It will soon contain a repeater function that will allow reading of the tag from large distances. So long as there are other RFID tags between the object RFID tag and the scanning equipment it's data can be passed along the line like a bucket brigade. In this scenario the range has become infinite.

In the not too distant future RFID tags will contain such items as GPS tracking, a pedometer, and even a microphone and voice recorder, or a video camera. Our every move could unknowingly be tracked and recorded by the tags contained in our clothing. So, we should all be concerned. It is imperative that legislation be adapted that would ensure our right to privacy.

Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 932
Good Answers: 22
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 3:19 AM

Tropicalspeed,

GPS doesn't receive except from command centers for maintaining the satellites.

A new system could replace those at extreme costs.

Jon

Power-User
United States - Member - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Coastal Louisiana. Well-center survey.
Posts: 215
Good Answers: 17
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 3:43 AM

Could you please amplify your comment concerning GPS? I don't quite understand.

Guru

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 932
Good Answers: 22
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 4:04 AM

Tropicalspeed,

GPS satellites do not track ground based transmissions except those from control and monitoring stations. Only control stations can upload operation and maintenance data to the satellites.

GPS is made up of three parts: satellites orbiting the Earth; control and monitoring stations on Earth; and the GPS receivers owned by users.

Jon

Power-User
United States - Member - New Member Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Coastal Louisiana. Well-center survey.
Posts: 215
Good Answers: 17
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 5:34 AM

OK, now I understand. What I was referring to was a GPS RECEIVER incorporated into the RFID tag and it was the tag that would re-broadcast the position data obtained from the GPS receiver via its RF transmitter much the same way a cellular system tracks GPS enabled cell phones. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.

Guru

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 932
Good Answers: 22
#16
In reply to #12

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 10:54 PM

Tropicalspeed,

Yes. I see what you mean.

Jon

Commentator

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 84
#7

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 1:58 AM

I read a few months ago that the RFID tags were compulsory to be worn by tunnel workers on one of Queensland (Australia) road project. The 'excuse' was to ensure that all people working in the tunnel are safe and can be tracked in case of a disaster. A person on a PC was able to track any worker at any time their whereabouts. I'm sure that the system was abused but not policed (ie hunting around for those that done a leak behind the truck )...

I don't like this technology, but I'm sure that people will embrace it for convenience sake (ie not have to wait forever to get the groceries scanned individually)...imagine...A trolly full of groceries needs only a walk through! Then link that to the personal RFID and your bill can be automatically deducted from your account. no lines, no waiting!!!!

Associate

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 27
#13
In reply to #7

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 6:23 AM

Good Day All right thinking people of the World. If RFID does not presently scare you, then it certainly should. PLEASE UNDERSTAND ...It is not the output from the RFID to their control centres that should be concerning you all, that is all common knowledge anyway... info easily obtained via prevailing long standing methodology. It is the possible diabolical inputs from their control centers to YOU that should be concerning you... i.e. Brainwave Entrainment. Mood Alterations, Aggression Induction, Sexual Stimulation/De-stimulation, Auto-Triggering, (MONARCH PROGRAM) Apathy Induction and much much more!

"THEY" are covertly selling you this tech as a "Protection" against a FALSE and "MANUFACTURED FEAR", as an enhanced "Security" for the Sheeple.. "THEY" have over the recent years successfully induced enough Fear of so called "Terrorism" into these poor unsuspecting victims that the sheeple will soon be "BEGGING" "THEM" to implant, which is of course their ultimate goal, an ENSLAVED Populace of Fools willingly giving up their Human right to TRUE freedom.("THEY" are now busy with "Manufacturing Consent". Ref. Noam Chomsky) By Allowing/Asking for the implantation of this chip, you will become nothing more than Herded & Enslaved FOOLS totally controlled by the criminal proponents of this diabolical imperative to their New World Order.

On its eventual and imminently compulsory introduction, refuse it ... you will most likely and somewhat mysteriously go amiss ... damn rock and a hard place! ... I for one will be refusing and will probably end up in "Single Lost Sock" Land, but at best I will be going down truly free as God intended and unmodified as God made me. The white-coated/shrouded monkey that has been commissioned to implant me will be close by my side! ... DEAD

There are none as CAPTIVE as those who BLINDLY BELIEVE they are FREE!

Common & anticipated response...JaJa just another "conspiracy theorist" ... effing idiot, our Loving and Caring Governments would NEVER dream of bringing such awful things into being. Hells-bells, some even deliver medicines to us in our water supply free of charge heh heh .... Please save it for the rest of your sleepy Possum friends!

Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 278
Good Answers: 7
#14

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 5:01 PM

In the pharmaceutical industry this is known as ePedigree or Track & Track. At the moment RFID is not suitable for this because of technical and product integrity issues. The puppose of ePedigree/ Track & Track is to deter counterfit products from being sold on the market. In theory the manufacturer or the regulating agency will have a database of all the valid products and these can be tracked through every step of the delivery chain.

I seriously doubt the concerns that this has privacy concerns. My thought is that in order to make this article more interesting than it actually is the author has decided to bring in the "big brother is watching you" card in the hope of generating some interest.

Mr. W.A Snow

Guru
Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brecksville, OH
Posts: 1362
Good Answers: 17
#17
In reply to #14

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 10:57 PM

I disagree. I believe many of the posters here have formed their opinions long before the author spoke out. We take our freedoms far too much for granted. Many of society's woes have been brought on by engineers/scientists being naive over the potential downsides of new technologies and assuming that governments and peoples will use them responsibly.

__________________
"Stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" : Will Rogers
Power-User

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 278
Good Answers: 7
#19
In reply to #17

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/13/2009 8:49 AM

agua_doc,

I agree with you when you say that we often "assuming that governments and peoples will use them responsibly." You are 100% correct. However, in this case I seriously doubt that the tagging will have an impact on personal freedoms.

I suppose upon reflection, I was a bit flippant about the subject.

Mr. W.A Snow

Guru

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South of Minot North Dakota
Posts: 525
Good Answers: 47
#15

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/11/2009 8:55 PM

If they want to know what toilet paper I buy and what I use it for they can ask, or watch or track me.

They can tag me if they want. I have the knowledge and resources to manufacture devices capable of generating close range RF and EMP outputs capable of burning out any electronics small enough to be implanted in me.

Sort of pointless to tag the monkey that has a key that can shut off his own tracking device!

If you think your foil hat is not stopping the signals well enough give me a call. I will zap you with enough EM energy to kill off any man made tracking device guaranteed!

As for alien tech maybe not. But for a few hundred dollars more I will lie to you and say it did any way!

( Like your really going to know the differance anyway! )

__________________
The best hire the best. The second best hire the third best. -- tcmtech
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member Popular Science - Biology - New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 684
Good Answers: 27
#18
In reply to #15

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/12/2009 11:09 PM

So what if they 'tag' you with a nerve stimulator device? Something that would give you a shock or pain if receiving a signal of sufficient amplitude. Wouldn't close range RF and EMP outputs run the risk of seriously frying your nervous system?

How would such high RF outputs affect, say, a person with a pacemaker? Or a VNS?

Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Aloha or
Posts: 257
Good Answers: 5
#20

Re: Does RFID Scare You?

08/20/2009 12:21 PM

Aside from some of the conspiracy theories posted. Companies such as wal-mart already are tracking what you buy and selling that info to advertisers and product manufacturers. A rfid on your person just makes this easier. If you use a credit card or a check, your name is attached to all sales. I object to this and only use cash when buying items to stop this. I do not carry any cards in my wallet that have rfids in them althougth I do have one at work that I have to carry at work. It opens doors and if I use my keys I get dinged for not using the card. I broke my card and my boss knew I wasn't using it before I let them know I needed a new one. I saw a list of times and dates for doors I had gone thru. The software for tracking rfids already exists.

__________________
Closed biased minds are utterly impervious to any factual evidence which contradicts their beliefs
Score 1 for Good Answer
20 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

agua_doc (3), artsmith (2), daffy (1), HoleInTheSnow (2), kudukdweller9 (4), Metman (1), silvCrow (1), stevem (1), tcmtech (1), tropicalspeed (4)

Previous in Blog: Your Greatest Troubleshooting Feat   Next in Blog: Why Do Industrial Accidents Happen?
You might be interested in: Radio Frequency Identification (RFID) Products, Label, Tag and Nameplate Services, RFID Edge Controllers