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Relativity and Cosmology

This is a Blog on relativity and cosmology for engineers and the like. You are welcome to comment upon or question anything said on my website (http://www.relativity-4-engineers.com), in the eBook or in the snippets I post here.

Comments/questions of a general nature should preferably be posted to the FAQ section of this Blog (http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/316/Relativity-Cosmology-FAQ).

A complete index to the Relativity and Cosmology Blog can be viewed here: http://cr4.globalspec.com/blog/browse/22/Relativity-and-Cosmology"

Regards, Jorrie

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Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

Posted January 22, 2007 11:00 PM by Jorrie

The Schwarzschild vacuum refers to the spacetime geometry around an isolated, spherically symmetric, homogeneous, non-rotating and uncharged mass. Wow, that's a mouthful of restrictions! It simply means that we are looking at an ideal case in order to make a complex situation as simple as possible. Karl Schwarzschild derived this exact solution to the field equations only months after Einstein published it in 1916.

The solution can be partially pictured as shown in fig.1 below. It represents a spatial view of the Schwarzschild vacuum. Space far from an isolated mass becomes exponentially flat. Nearer to the mass, it can be pictured as having a changing slope, as shown. In certain cases, the slope may get infinitely large and end up in a singularity.

Normal masses, like stars and planets do not have a singularity at the center. However, if the mass is concentrated into a small enough volume, it contracts unstoppable into a singularity, as shown below, forming a black hole with an event horizon. This can happen to massive stars that run out of fuel.

Figure 1:

Figure 1 shows only two of the three spatial dimensions, i.e., two dimensions of space (the white circles) that curve into a hypothetical third dimension, sometimes called 'hyper-space'. The temporal (or time) dimension of spacetime is suppressed for clarity.

The red circle is the event horizon of the black hole. Anything reaching that circle (in 3-d it's a virtual spherical "membrane") cannot ever escape again. The reason for this is that gravity is so strong there that the force required to move outward from the event horizon approaches infinity. So this is a "one-way membrane" - things (even light) can only go inward.

One of the consequences of gravity is that, from a distant observers point of view, all processes appear to be slowed down near a gravitating mass. This apparent slowdown gets more acute the closer the process is to the mass. All processes at the event horizon apparently stop - that is from the point of view of any stationary observer outside of the event horizon.

The result is that when a source of (say) yellow light is placed at some distance from the mass, then an observer that is farther from the mass will observe the light as red shifted in wavelength and an observer closer to the mass will observe the light as blue shifted. This is depicted in Fig. 2 below. The effect is normally called 'gravitational redshift', despite the fact that gravitational blueshift is also possible.

Figure 2:

The yellow waves in fig. 2 represents light that travels between observers at the same distance from the hole - no shift in wavelength. The yellow/red wave is an outgoing (red shifted) light ray and the green/blue waves are ingoing (blue shifted) light rays.

The white circles are drawn at equally spaced coordinate distance from the hole, i.e., if they are projected onto a flat surface, say at the bottom of the picture, they will form equally spaced concentric circles. The varying slope of the curve makes it clear that the 'proper radial distance' between the circles increases as you go closer to the black hole. Proper radial distance is what a stationary observer near the black hole would measure in the radial direction, using a local ruler, following the curvature of space.

It is obviously not possible for any stationary observer to directly measure the proper distance to the center of the black hole. Rulers and observers would all be swallowed by the hole and radar signals would never return an echo. It is however possible, in principle at least, for a slow moving observer to measure the circumference of the white circle by means of a local ruler. This circumference corresponds to the usual C = 2Пr of Euclidean geometry, hence the radial distance parameter r is usually referred to as 'circumferential radius'.

The reason why this is an issue, is the following. Let a local observer (say Pam) determine that the circumference of a white circle (2Пr) at her position is 6.282 million miles. This means that her circumferential radial distance is 1 million miles (the yellow radius, r1 in fig. 3 below). Let Pam move closer to the black hole by a radial distance of 100 000 miles (or 10% of her original circumferential radius) as measured by her own yardstick. Let Pam then measure the circumference at her new location in order to determine the new circumferential radius (r2).

Figure 3:

One would naively expect the circumference and radius to have decreased by 10%. This is not what Pam would find, because, depending on the mass of the black hole, it would have decreased by somewhat less, as shown in Fig. 3.

Pam's twin brother Jim, playing 'distant stationary observer', would not have agreed with Pam on the amount that she has moved in the radial direction. The difference obviously lurks in the sloped nature of Pam's radial space relative to Jim's flat radial space (recall that the space far from the hole is exponentially approaching flatness, i.e., the horizontal).

Relativists tell us (e.g., Thorne in "Black Holes and Time Warps", paraphrased) that we can forget about the "curving into hyper-space", provided that we apply the correct transformation rules between the values measured by different observers. We will return to that in a later post. In the next post we will continue with this discussion of black holes, specifically looking at the temporal (time) picture in the Schwarzschild vacuum, or the so-called Schwarzschild chart.

More details are available on this web page from Relativity 4 Engineers and its PDF download. Credit: figures were taken from http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schwp.html, and modified where required for explanatory purposes. There are some very interesting animations and even 'morphing' on the casa.colorado web page, although the discussions are somewhat cryptic.

Jorrie


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#1

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/24/2007 1:38 AM

Dear Jorrie,

I always had doubts about concept of black hole. Something going in and never coming out is very strange. I feel the existing dimensions collapse at Black Hole and new dimensions emerge at Black Hole and matter in our dimensional system disappears and goes into different dimensional system i.e. into new world.

Nandan

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/24/2007 8:09 AM

Hi Nandan, you wrote: "I feel the existing dimensions collapse at Black Hole and new dimensions emerge at Black Hole and matter in our dimensional system disappears and goes into different dimensional system i.e. into new world."

I agree with the first part: our existing dimensions and theory "collapse" at the central singularity.

However, as far as we know, all the matter/energy that has gone into a black hole is still part of our "world", because we can measure that mass/energy. This makes it very unlikely that such energy can appear in some other "world"!

Regards, Jorrie

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#3
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/24/2007 8:50 AM

Hello,

A question that's off the specific topic, but still related to black holes: I was confused to read that matter enters black holes, but the event horizon remains fixed. Doesn't the mass falling in get added to the mass of the object? Part of my confusion might be related to the idea of massless photons falling in--wouldn't they increase the event horizon also?

Thanks!

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#4
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/24/2007 9:11 AM

Hi Guest:

Sure you should be confused! Who said "that matter enters black holes, but the event horizon remains fixed"?

Everything with mass/energy that falls into a black hole, i.e., passes the event horizon, increases the mass/energy of the black hole and effectively increases the radius of the event horizon: re = 2GM/(rc2). This includes photons.

I hope this clears the confusion!

Regards, Jorrie

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#8
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/24/2007 5:47 PM

jorrie....i agree with the expanding event horizon as black holes must grow somewhat due to the mass obtained......the misnomer is that the term "hole" keeps people in two dimension thinking that it is a passageway or some other idea......i believe the mass must be round and gravitaitional pull is from all directions....but the rotation issue remains a mystery to me in where singularity actually occurs....and where the detection of x-rays, etc are observed just at the edge.

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#9
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 12:34 AM

Hi dberts, you wrote: "...i believe the mass must be round and gravitational pull is from all directions....but the rotation issue remains a mystery to me in where singularity actually occurs....and where the detection of x-rays, etc are observed just at the edge."

According to present knowledge (and it may be incomplete, awaiting quantum gravity...), the mass of a black hole is concentrated into a singularity of infinite density. For a non-rotating Schwarzschild hole, the event horizon is spherical and the gravitational field is isotropic.

Rotating holes are called Kerr black holes and they are only symmetric in the plane of their equators (they are oblate). The x-rays are detected outside the event horizon, as you said, but a bit more than "just at the edge" - normally at between 2 and 3 event horizon radii, I think. That is where the in-spiraling dust and gas get heated to extreme temperatures and radiate furiously in x-rays. You can read some more on this in the Relativity 4 Engineers link I gave above.

Regards, Jorrie

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#14
In reply to #9

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 7:28 AM

jorrie.....just a thought..in a Kerr black hole, in order to be somewhat oblate, wouldn't the rotation have to be at such a high rate to overcome the intense gravitational forces of the black hole itself....is this possible; to have a non-spherical shape as found in non-black hole objects? Seems to be conflicting.

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#15
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 8:52 AM

Hi again dberts, you asked: "..in a Kerr black hole, in order to be somewhat oblate, wouldn't the rotation have to be at such a high rate to overcome the intense gravitational forces of the black hole itself....is this possible"

A Kerr hole drags spacetime around it along the equator and that makes the gravitational field different from a Schwarzschild hole; hence the oblate form of the event horizon.

There is a certain maximum spin rate that is attainable (called the extreme Kerr hole), no matter how fast the original collapsing object did spin. If this was not the case, the hole could spin fast enough to break apart and fling pieces of itself outward. That is obviously not allowed for a black hole!

In the case of two black holes that fall into each other, there must be a time when the resulting single hole is nowhere near symmetrical around the spin axis, causing gravitational waves, carrying energy, to be radiated until it finally settles into a smooth, oblate equatorial event horizon and a constant spin rate.

Regards, Jorrie

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 9:29 AM

jorrie......another loose thought....maybe the source of the origin white hole (big bang) is by exceeding the maximum spin rate......

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#33
In reply to #15

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/29/2007 5:08 PM

hi jorrie....in follow up to this complex topic...some questions: Would the oblate event horizon you mentioned necessarily correspond to a oblate black hole? Would the event horizon be the same from all references? in other words, if the oblate form is the same from all references (based on the space time drag), wouldn't the final shape be round? Apologies if I missed something along the way, but it seems this subject has the effect of creating more questions than answers. One last item: as previously mentioned, how could a white hole exist before appearing outside the event horizon? Can a black hole exceed a mass limit or is there a constant associated with this? Again thinking of if exceeding maximum spin of a Kerr hole and the resultant event such as the big bang or other. I have enjoyed reading your blog and will go back and re-read you chapters.

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#34
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/29/2007 10:11 PM

Hi dberts,

The horizon is not a physical thing - there's nothing there, just spacetime that is so strongly curved that it forms a one-way "membrane". What is called a black hole refers to the characteristics of this "membrane". The real object is the central singularity and it has no size - by definition!

The oblate form corresponds to the spin direction, i.e., the horizon bulges out at the equator, just like Earth does. I'm sure you can answer your own question from here...

White holes are thought not to exists, because they violate the 2nd law on thermodynamics.

AFAIK, black holes can have any mass this side of infinity. Obviously, the bigger the mass, the lower will be the limit in angular rate (spin rate) of the extreme Kerr hole.

Hope it helps!

Regards, Jorrie

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#26
In reply to #9

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/26/2007 9:12 AM

I don't want to appear to be "sharp shooting" you, but your response raises one question: If the density of the singularity is "infinite", what happens when more matter enters the singularity? Infinity + 1 ? How can this be? Thanks. (Not a math major!). H. Garey

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#18
In reply to #2

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 11:50 AM

Dear Jorrie,

Matter entering Black hole and going into another dimensional system could be a part of our Universe which is invisible like dark matter.

Nandan

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#21
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 12:30 PM

Hi nandan, you said: "Matter entering Black hole and going into another dimensional system could be a part of our Universe which is invisible like dark matter."

I think you are hovering on the brink of meta-physics here. I do not believe that there is any theoretical or observational evidence of such a possibility. Nice to speculate about, but for the present, I would treat it as sci-fi!

Regards, Jorrie

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#5

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/24/2007 10:21 AM

If nothing ever escapes and the universe started with a big bang, isn't that kind of like an oxymoron? Does anyone know what a black hole actually consists of or is it all theory? (Maybe they are drains, like in a bath tub, where our universe is being sucked out into a universe sewer.)

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#7
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/24/2007 4:45 PM

I concur. I also wonder where we are on the event horizon. From a practical standpoint if the universe is collapsing into numerous black holes (and I once read that there were an enormous number of miniscule black holes) we may be skewing all the astronomical information we are getting. I guess I am asking how we know we arent falling into a black hole as we speak, albeit ever so slowly.

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#10
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 1:30 AM

Hi Keywalker, you wrote: "If nothing ever escapes and the universe started with a big bang, isn't that kind of like an oxymoron?"

The cosmos is postulated to have started from an energy singularity and it more resembles a white hole than a black hole. White holes spew every thing out and nothing can get in through the event horizon.

You also asked: "Does anyone know what a black hole actually consists of or is it all theory?"

If you mean what's in that central singularity, it's not even theory! Nobody knows. I would speculate that matter in particle form cannot exist there, so maybe it's quarks or whatever; maybe just photons?

Regards, Jorrie

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#35
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Re: Black Holes Have Zero Time

11/13/2007 2:04 PM

For Rob MacRiner: Provocative thoughts. Some questions: 1. You talk of matter expanding. Are you suggesting that the overall density of matter in the Universe is decreasing? Or that the total amount of matter-energy in the Universe is not a constant? 2. How would your reversible time-line affect living things as time reverses? 3. Why would there be "no time" in a Black Hole? Isn't the B. H. ageing the same as the Universe? A B. H. is continually ingesting gas and debris from it's galaxy, and if the B. H. is not moving foreward in time, how can this matter advance from the accretion disc to become part of the "discontinuity" or whatever physical state the B. H. exits in? 4. If the B. H. is indeed gowing in mass with time, it would seem that the B. H. must be ageing (time passing) along with the rest of the Universe. We can "see" the accretion disc and know how it chages with time, and emits radiation as the gas/matter speeds up to ever increasing velocities around the B. H. Again, some interesting thoughts.

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Black Holes Have Zero Time

11/14/2007 1:00 AM

Hi Cardio07.

Rob MacRiner posted several identical (provocative) "replies" (totally off-topic) to a number of my threads and I considered that to be sp@m, so I asked Chris to remove some of them. Sorry if this is causing any inconvenience.

I suppose he can start a new thread if he so wishes.

Jorrie

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#37
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Re: Black Holes Have Zero Time

11/14/2007 10:50 AM

Jorrie, thanks for the info. Black Holes are near and dear to my heart, and I am interested in any discussion or comments re the subject. Talk about a bizarre subject! I suspect our knowledge of dark matter/dark energy is about where out knowledge of black holes was 30-years or so ago.

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#39
In reply to #36

Re: Black Holes Have Zero Time

12/24/2007 11:44 PM

Well I'm sorry I was viewed as spam, that wasn't my intent. I think that perception is part of our problem in attempting to understand a BH and Time. It is the perception of time that makes it difficult to comprehend how time might not exist in a black hole. If you allow yourself to buy into the idea that time can only exist "if there is movement of some kind" (which could be either expansion or contraction.)..and if you accept the notion that time is relative to the observer....then that might help to see it as I do.. So if you were standing beside a BH and wondering if it had any time....your time or your perception of time can only be measured by any change in the BH..to you....of course all the while you and your space is expanding relative to the BH. If the BH is sucking up matter, than that matter is in reverse time (to you), if the mass of the BH (assumming that the matter being sucked into a BH is accumulating into a huge mass...which I believe is a fair assumption)...then that huge mass is reversing in time.as it compresses.... if as we believe the particles within that mass are contracting.....At some point to you... they are frozen in time...until at which point they explode...now in therory the big bang type explosion would only happen when the matter within a black hole has become so compressed that the accumulative huge mass of matter, or most of it explodes. So if the question is ; "is there a point when a BH has no time"?, I submit to you that that to me it only seems possible that a BH is constantly contracting matter and compressing itself into a very compressed block of whatever...therefor until a big bang...the BH is mostly reversing in time....until a point at which it explodes.(somewhere bewteen the two ... would be in ... zero time)..when it explodes...forward time begins....relative to the observer..which is you..or another universe...Rob MacRiner

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#38
In reply to #35

Re: Black Holes Have Zero Time

12/24/2007 10:54 PM

Well I'm sorry I was viewed as spam, that wasn't my intent. I think that perception is part of our problem in attempting to understand a BH and Time. It is the perception of time that makes it difficult to comprehend how time might not exist in a black hole. If you allow yourself to buy into the idea that time can only exist "if there is movement of some kind" (which could be either expansion or contraction.)..and if you accept the notion that time is relative to the observer....then that might help to see it as I do.. So if you were standing beside a BH and wondering if it had any time....your time or your perception of time can only be measured by any change in the BH..to you....of course all the while you and your space is expanding relative to the BH. If the BH is sucking up matter, than that matter is in reverse time (to you), if the mass of the BH (assumming that the matter being sucked into a BH is accumulating into a huge mass...which I believe is a fair assumption)...then that huge mass is reversing in time.as it compresses.... if as we believe the particles within that mass are contracting.....At some point to you... they are frozen in time...until at which point they explode...now in therory the big bang type explosion would only happen when the matter within a black hole has become so compressed that the accumulative huge mass of matter, or most of it explodes. So if the question is ; "is there a point when a BH has no time"?, I submit to you that that to me it only seems possible that a BH is constantly contracting matter and compressing itself into a very compressed block of whatever...therefor until a big bang...the BH is mostly reversing in time....until a point at which it explodes.(somewhere bewteen the two ... would be in ... zero time)..when it explodes...forward time begins....relative to the observer..which is you..or another universe...Rob MacRiner

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#40
In reply to #38

Re: Black Holes Have Zero Time

12/26/2007 9:42 AM

Several questions re your entry: Are you talking about a Massive BH, one that perhaps had it's inception at the origin of the Universe? Or a single collapsed star? Or mini-BHs? When is the "explosion" of the BH, in our time? Backwards in time to its inception? Or sometime in our future? One is tempted to say that, if a BH is feeding on surrounding matter, then there must be a forward running time, from past to present to future, associated with that BH. Have you seen the recent photos or artist's conceptions of the beam (jet) from 3C321? This is not an exploding massive BH, but rather the magnetic field-focused jet of radiation from the accretion disk as it is heated to the point of generating gamma and X-rays, etc. The jet is impacting a small galaxy some 20,000 light years away from the BH. The postulated results are that the jet is likely stripping any atmosphere from planets being impacted by the jet in the target galaxy, plus irradating and killing any life forms on those planet's surfaces. Think what it must be like to be a fairly close neighbor of the irradating BH! Then consider the apparent expansion of Space. Are the distances between individual stars increasing? Apparently there is no increasing of space (reduction of the density of matter) inside of solar systems. What will this decreasing space density have on concentrations of Dark Matter? Will it affect the feeding ability of massive BH at the center of galaxies? Can, or do, BH ingest Dark Matter? Or do BH exist in concentrations of Dark Matter? Jorrie, any recent books on these topics?

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#41
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Re: Black Holes Have Zero Time

12/26/2007 10:20 AM

Hi Cardio07, you wrote: "Are the distances between individual stars increasing? Apparently there is no increasing of space (reduction of the density of matter) inside of solar systems."

AFAIK, galaxies are not expanding with the 'Hubble flow', but structures like our Local Group are. Although the distance between us and out sister galaxy Andromeda decreases, many of the farther out dwarf galaxies are receding from us.

"What will this decreasing space density have on concentrations of Dark Matter? Will it affect the feeding ability of massive BH at the center of galaxies? Can, or do, BH ingest Dark Matter?"

Dark matter is also concentrated where normal matter is, to the tune of at least 7 parts dark to 1 part visible, so active galactic nuclei BHs must be ingesting more dark matter than normal matter, I think.

"Jorrie, any recent books on these topics?"

Not recent books that I know of, but there are some papers and reports, specifically this one on local expansion.

Jorrie

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#42
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Re: Black Holes Have Zero Time

12/26/2007 10:54 AM

Thanks, Jorrie! Best regards for a Healthy, Happy and Prosperous New Year!

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#6

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/24/2007 4:25 PM

Do the ones seen in the southern hemisphere rotate clockwise or counter clockwise?

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#11

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 2:41 AM

I have a question Jorrie,

How small can a black hole be and if you can make one that is small enough could you use it as the ultimate source of pollution free energy? Another thought is that if you could make a white hole could you also use it as ultimate source of energy or is this all Star Trek type pseudo science mumbo jumbo?

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#12
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 3:49 AM

hi Masu, you asked: "How small can a black hole be and if you can make one that is small enough could you use it as the ultimate source of pollution free energy?"

I believe the lower limit in event horizon size must be near the Planck length of 10-35 m, still packing some considerable mass! How to make one? Don't know, but there may be many micro and mini black holes out there...

If we can find one that spins rapidly, it is possible to extract energy from it's considerable angular momentum. There's also the possibility to tap some Hawking radiation from them, which means actually converting the things mass to energy!

All this is proper science, just not practical - yet...

Regards, Jorrie

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#13
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Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 6:16 AM

Mind you, it would need to have a 100% reliable containment system for the darn thing, if it ever got loose the results could be catastrophic. Then again I don't know how fast a tiny black hole 10-35 m in diameter could swallow things, if it takes a few billion years to swallow something of significant size then it wouldn't matter that much.

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#17
In reply to #13

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 11:06 AM

Hi masu, I had a bit of my 'tongue in the cheek' when I said that a 10-35 m radius black hole has significant mass! In SI units, the mass is significant relative to the distance, but it is only about 0.14 milli-gram.

Micro and mini black holes are probably a bit heavier than that - I recall that mini black holes have the mass of a small mountain, bit still with a very tiny size. The only practical way to contain that mass:size ratio would probably be in orbit around Earth.

That raises the interesting question of how to get any energy that we extract from the angular momentum of the mini black hole back to Earth...

Regards, Jorrie

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 11:52 AM

I don't understand how the mass of even a large mountain could become a black hole. Wouldn't it take tremendous gravity to compress something down to a singularity? Or is it just a matter of become so cold that the matter approaches absolute zero so that the absence of motion in the molecules allows the particles to come together in some inert fashion? Fascinating stuff to consider even if it is a bit off topic, eh? And if that is the case, maybe there are many many black holes out there in the cold reaches of space just waiting for us to collect them for energy????? That is assuming of course you could even control such a thing without being sucked in, sort of like how I became sucked into this conversation.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 12:25 PM

Hi Keywalker, your query is actually a pretty tough one!

You asked: "Wouldn't it take tremendous gravity to compress something down to a singularity? Or is it just a matter of become so cold that the matter approaches absolute zero so that the absence of motion in the molecules allows the particles to come together in some inert fashion?"

In present times, it is probably impossible to manufacture a mini- or micro black hole. It is postulated that during the inflationary epoch of the cosmic expansion, conditions could have existed for the creation of mini black holes. Not cold conditions though, but very hot and very dense, coupled to quantum fluctuations... weird stuff!

I confess that I do not understand it, but great brains like Stephen Hawking believe that this could have happened. We have no evidence of anything like it to date, so who knows?

Jorrie

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 12:41 PM

And an even tougher question in my mind is how would you extract energy from the angular momentum of the mini black hole in the first place, much less how would you get that energy to earth? Wouldn't that require extracting energy from gravity?

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 1:23 PM

Hi Keywalker: Extracting energy from a spinning mini black hole? Well, Sir Roger Penrose, "OM, FRS, an English mathematical physicist and Emeritus Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the Mathematical Institute, University of Oxford and Emeritus Fellow of Wadham College" has worked out a scheme...

Sorry, Sir Roger, this is my variant:

I plan to commit my dear mother in law, when she goes, to the better of mankind. Shoot her, in a suitable coffin, up to the spinning mini black hole. At the right position and trajectory in the ergo-sphere of this little hole, open the coffin and gently bump dear mother in law's remains towards the hole.

If I'm lucky and my calcs were right, the little monster (the mini hole) will swallow mother in law and eject the coffin with a tremendous boost in velocity. So, now I have extracted energy from the little "monster". One problem remains: how do I get that energy back to Terra Firma?

Please help! Jorrie

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/25/2007 4:16 PM

Sorry Jorrie, I am not prepared to help you with this one... Thanks for your response but upon reflection I am genuinely persuaded to end my participation in this conversation.

Regards,

Keywalker

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/26/2007 1:33 AM

Hi Keywalker, I'm sorry if this "parable" offended you - I'll blame it on Sir Roger Penrose, who used a similar one to explain how energy can be extracted from spinning black holes. If it is generally offensive, I will be happy to delete it.

The point of the parable is that if you can sacrifice some part of a mass to a spinning black hole, you can transfer some of its rotational energy as kinetic energy to the remaining piece.

Regards, Jorrie

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#28
In reply to #25

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/26/2007 9:38 AM

Jorrie: I thought it was quite clever, indeed! Certainly not offensive!

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#31
In reply to #25

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/26/2007 3:43 PM

OK, I'm not really offended. I just thought that the conversation was getting a bit unrealistic and well... out there. However, if you really want to know how to get the energy to earth, well, I suppose you could make sure the coffin was of a permanent magnet construction and since you are able to control the trajectory precisely just route the projectile through a huge coil producing tremendous amounts of electrical energy which you then use to produce a laser beam that is directed toward earth to be captured by photovoltaic cells or the like. I'm sure this solution is as plausible as the coffin theory.

Regards,

JL

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/27/2007 1:58 PM

Hi JL, I agree that this veered off into an esoteric direction...

To get it back onto track is not easy in these threads - the speculations are so much more interesting than the real science or engineering issues!

My favourite use of such kinetic energy would not be to beam it back to Earth, but rather to use it to transfer kinetic energy to some spaceship or probe or whatever, in order to get to other solar system environments or perhaps to extra-solar system regions with less brute force energy.

There are many possible schemes for that, but then, discussing them would perhaps be considered off-topic...

After all, the topic is simple Schwarzschild black holes!

Regards, Jorrie

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#27
In reply to #12

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/26/2007 9:23 AM

Jorrie: What about the thoughts of creating an ultra-small black hole in a massive particle accelerator? If one were created, wouldn't it immediately suck all the atmosphere into itself, and then start on the solid matter (Earth)? Sort of like: "If we detonate this A-bomb (or H-bomb), will it ignite the atmosphere?" thoughts of the 1940's.

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#29
In reply to #27

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/26/2007 1:17 PM

Hi Cardio07 , I'm using this in response to your 3 last posts.

Firstly, infinity+1 is still infinity. In physics and math, infinity is known as a singularity and it is not a defined number. Adding something to 'undefined' still leaves it undefined!

Secondly, we simply do not have the energy density available in particle accelerators to get even close to creating singularities. There is a possibility that singularities do not even exist! Our limited knowledge implies that they should exist, but we may be completely wrong. We do not have the physics or math to properly deal with those conditions.

Thirdly, if the "parable of my dear mother in law" transfered some understanding, she would be more than happy!

Regards, Jorrie

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Black Holes Part 1 - The Schwarzschild vacuum

01/26/2007 1:40 PM

Many thanks for the response comments! Cardio 07.

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