(9-11 truths revisited) Does any one watch LINK TV ?

Jeez here we go again with another conspiricy. I believe what they found was not enough fire proofing materials on the structural steel which would have helped slow if not prevent the collapse of the buildings.

What is more inane?

Conspiracy theory

or

Coincidence theory?

Check combustion temps for plastic, kerosene, etc. vs elasticity/strength changes in steel.

It doesn't add up.

Look up UL the engineer that challenged NIST conclusions vs tests and was fired for doing so. Kevin Ryan

Also suppressed UL tests.

"At least one report claims that a "power down" condition prevailed on September 8–9 (pdf, p. 45) at WTC to complete a "cabling upgrade," presenting an opportunity to plant explosives with low risk of detection."

Although I wouldn't put anything pass a government on the "hunt for oil", I truly doubt that 2 days would be enough to wire 250+ floors (WTC 1, 2 &7) with explosives. Demolition companies spend weeks planning, installing and verifying the placement of all charges along with all the wiring, etc...they also "pre-cut" some of the support beams to weakened them in order to have a "perfect" collapse. Even if they had a lot more time, they would have needed access to the internal support structure (opening walls, for one) and this "renovation" would have been apparent to the thousands working at the WTCs in the weeks leading to 9/11. I might buy the book to see if they actually answer all these questions (and many more)...

Research who was on the board of the Security Company for the WTC.

Look for photos of diagonally, thermally cut beams on the net.

Find the longest beam in the entire building after collaspe (bent or not) from the upper floors

What I can say is that the pancake theory is implausible.

"No mere plane could have brought them down". You can't be serious! I am surprised that more buildings were not taken down. If you have doubts, look up the specs on the planes. I don't know exactly how fast they were going but it had to be 250mph or more. Have you ever fired a high powered rifle at an object and seen the little hole going in and the devastating damage going out. That plane is a giant bullet full of jet fuel.

I am a bit surprised that being an engineer in Los Angeles that you would question whether a Boeing airline plane hitting the upper portion of a skyscraper could cause it to collapse in the way it did. I was on the 3rd floor of a 3 story apartment building in Sherman Oaks when the Northridge earthquake hit. The top floors whipped like the end of a fishing rod flinging the contents of the rooms all over the place. On the bottom floor every single window and door popped out or twisted. In comparison imagine the force of that plane hitting toward the top of the Trade Center building and the leverage it must have had over the structure at the bottom of the building and everywhere in between. If someone tries to add up all the variables of the materials, shapes, and assembly of that building plus all the variables of the speed, mass, fuel contents, etc of the plane and say that they can predict just how it will fall, I would suggest that they are probably in over their head.

Personally I believe we need spend less time and energy looking for scapegoats to fry in order to satisfy obvious political agendas, and more time getting an unbiased education about what is really going on in the world so we can separate our friends from our enemies and treat them accordingly.

if anybody believes the official story after actually spending hours and hours researching all the information available . including eyewitness testimonies and experts reports including literally hundreds of very highly qualified , extremely intelligent people, that blow holes and expose the weaknesses in the official story. whatever needed to be done to pull this mega crime off was done, hiding explosives inside a building does not take some miraculous achievement . its such an uncomfortable thought that requires very free thinking that most people cant even start to really , really ,look at the stone cold facts. why is it that we allow these organized criminals to do whatever they wish as we just watch, we are hypnotized somehow , they steal the election and bend all america over,fighting a war because what? they keep the technology that could change everything, this need for oil is a lie and anybody that really believes that our leaders have our best interests in mind need to snap out of this hypnotized condition somehow.

I think you have read too much into my comments. Of course we need to examine the facts and whenever we find our government at fault to hold them accountable. Even though we are probably of opposite political opinions, we can probably agree that it is getting increasingly difficult to separate opinion from fact even when it comes from "experts" because so few of them are unbiased.

My point was simply that regardless of there being explosives or not, I do not have any problem believing that a plane could take that building down. That is my opinion based on my observations. You have blasted me with your political opinions without first introducing yourself. My contact information is availavble for all to see. I am open to discuss any subject with mutual respect. I will listen to your opinion with respect and you listen to mine. Is that free thinking enough for you?

I still cannot believe anyone who knows anything about politics or engineering would believe in the conspericy theory. And by the way what about the Pentagon, the 3 missing aircraft, the one in Penn. What about the continuing stuggle overseas with AL Q and the fact that Britain and Spain have endured as well. Will you please wake up and realize we are a country at war just as our Fathers and Grand Fathers were and before long maybe to an equal degree if people like you keep placing the blame on the White House instead of the radical muslim ever so present. This presence is everywhere around you and it is real and they are taught to hate you because you are American and you have a value system that is not favorable to the domination of Females, killing innocents so they can have 70 Virgins in Heaven?, kill fellow Muslims; this would be like the Luthern Missouri senate killing the more A moderate luthern.

Are you kidding, you might not like Bush but in this time he is the best thing that has happened to this country, God help us all if Obama Bin Laden, or Billary gets elected
!

you are not an expert in this field , but you pretend to feel comfortable talking about a very serious issue, some apartment in a earthquake is so far removed from the technical facts on this subject, please actually check it out

Let's see.. I am responding to Guest? and Guest? "you are not an expert in this field"

I did not make any such claim. In fact my face, name, and website are accessable so you can see exactly who I am. I have stated my opinion based on what I see. You however have not introduced yourself. Who are you? Are you an expert? Maybe you are. If so maybe I can learn something from you. However if you expect me to take you seriously, please don't attack me personally from the anonymity of "guest". I agree with you that this is a very serioius issue. I watched in horror and anger just as you probably did on 9/11 when the planes smacked into the buildings. I was responding to the comments on the buildings being built to withstand gale forces which has less relevance to what happened than a comparison to a 7. earthquake, and to the comment that a mere plane couldn't knock the building down. I may not be an expert in the "field" but I know enough about planes to know that the description "mere plane" is not appropriate. Whoever planned the attack may well have added explosives to the mix. I don't know. That was not the point of my comment. We each have our own paradigm. I shared mine. You are welcome to share yours.

This forum is a place where we may express our ideas, our opinions, recieve help and provide help. It is an international forum in which we often walk a fine line to separate politics from engineering. All of these can be accomplished best if we give consideration to courtesey, respect, and tolerance.

Gary

Guest, you are TOTALLY out of line.

Sign in properly, so that we know who you are, before you start inflicting your unimportant personal opinion(s) on the rest of us.....in fact, just be a man for a change!

Oscillations were recorded for second impact and were within design limits.

No exit hole from fuselage (unlike seen at Pentagon, but that is another story), only flames out of side.

Collapse straight down. Yes I agree it is extremely surprising that so little damage occurred to surrounding structures.

Massive beams thrown sideways, for hundreds of feet.

Ash, Ash, Ash everywhere. Look at the amount of ash at initiation of collapse ... unusually high.

Oscillations were recorded for second impact and were within design limits.

No exit hole from fuselage (unlike seen at Pentagon, but that is another story), only flames out of side.

Collapse straight down. Yes I agree it is extremely surprising that so little damage occurred to surrounding structures.

Massive beams thrown sideways, for hundreds of feet.

Ash, Ash, Ash everywhere. Look at the amount of ash at initiation of collapse ... unusually high.

...and Teddy Roosevelt planted a bomb on the battleship Maine anchored in Havana's harbor.

Hi dbwoods. I watched this film together with a friend who is a demolition expert, and we both agreed that it looked like a demolition job. We noted the said small explosions that were evenly paced run down the sides of the buildings, and my friend said that for two buildings to collaps like they did was a one in a million chance if they were both hit independently by two jet planes. To me it looks suspiciously like a deliberate attempt to fool us into thinking that it was caused by terrorists. Spencer.

There is an excellent site that describes the engineered design of the world trade towers. Of note:

The tubular framing system for the perimeter walls resisted all of the lateral forces imposed by wind and earthquake, as well as the impact loads imposed on September 11. Although we had used closely spaced columns in an earlier building, it was Minoru Yamasaki who proposed that we use narrow windows in the WTC towers to give people a sense of security as they looked down from on high. Our contribution was to make the closely spaced columns the fundamental lateral-force-resisting system for the two towers. The tubular framing system also precluded the need for the customary 30-foot column spacing in interior areas, making column-free, rentable space structurally desirable.

The full text can be found at

http://www.nae.edu/nae/bridgecom.nsf/weblinks/CGOZ-58NLCB

In a synopsis, the design of the building was such that the weight was supported primarily on the outside (and some internal columns) but for the most part, the column system that is used in most high rise towers was circumvented allowing them to maximize rentable space on each floor.

Given that, it is not unreasonable that the effects of the planes' explosions and subsequent fires would seriously weaken those supporting columns on the perimeter that. With the weight of all of the above floors now supported by a weakened structure, it is not inconceivable that the floors would fail where the planes hit and the structure would then accordion downwards as what happened.

As the supporting structure failed due to compression, the failure would be exhibited by shattering windows and walls which would give an impression of an explostion - somethign that is seen even when tall buildings are dimolished using explosions on key supporting columns.

To my mind, your explanation fits the circumstances best. Many thanks for your excellent and logical input.

"Fear is the mind killer" Quote from famous ficition, but very real in this case.

Once the seeds are planted and the mind is left to it's own devices, it grows until it looks fruity??!? :)

Open your mind to all of the "FACTS", not some spin doctors presentation of them.

Think for yourself, and collect information from all sides of the story, not just the usual sources, (they would be the likely targets of someone trying to control or hide things. HMMM? think for yourself!)

I think that the fact that you are investigating an engineering fact on an engineering forum is just that, collecting information from new sources, but don't come at it with a rush of expectation that you will be considered correct in your emotional stance. Don't be disdaining of the opinions given you just because don't follow the path you are following. Lemmings die for that type of following.

First look to the credibility of the source (not it's time honor'edness,)

But on the fact that they speak truth or try to do so, do they actually care about who they are speaking too, or are they just a means to an end for them. What's in it for them? Is power their objective? Does everthing they say slant one way or another without actually stating their position (many media fall into this category) or do they state their position and then give their opinion based on an that open position and let you decide for yourself if you want to believe it. Or do they try to pesent something to you as fact without using all the facts in the story? (ie. many conspiritous organizations and movies). Do they use facts both helpful and discouraging to their own opinion?

I hope we all take a moment and think before letting emotional currents take us places we should not go.

"Fear is the mind killer"

Good quote. But with apologies to the Bene Gesserit, hatred is an even more potent mind killer. There are always a few crazies who see conspiracies everywhere, but the popularity of the 911 conspiracy theories is a great example of how hatred robs people of sound judgement.

Bill Morrow

This is getting to be up there with Roswell, Pearl Harbor and the Kennedy's assassinations.

Occam's Razor should be used in all this conundrum. If there were all these "Others" that placed the explosives, bought, made or transported them, let alone planned such an event, others would know.

It is just a simple factor of the human nature someone would talk, others would know. "Say joey you know so and so bought a ton of nitrous from me." "My wife's hair dresser says her husband moved the explosives into the buildings" "The secretary for senator so and so typed up the memorandums from the meeting of jury 10^th and said they said the plan was to do this." some one would spill the beans just out of habit, the braggadocios mentality would reign. Most military Intel is hearsay to begin with till proven one way or the other but proof is required.

There have been no residual evidence of explosives, which wold have been present in the dust and or debris of the site. Again someone would have mentioned it.

A beat cop would have noticed the movement of large quantiles of supplies into a building even if it were kosher, again someone would have said I saw them moving pallets of barrels into the building the night and or days before. Or I saw the strange packages in the stairwells on Tuesday.

Why complicate it all with a conspiracy theory, whats the point that would be archived by such actions? Did we need a reason to attack terrorist organizations? No, they have given us more than enough reasons with out such a heinous exploit to trigger our rage. This was not the first, nor I dare say the last foolish attempt by extremist to harm Americans. Did we need to be tricked into a war like stance? When has America ever shrunk from war? Was the goal to make us fight terrorist in another country? No need for that, the Iraqis and Iranians provided their own death knoll and ample reason to change them from friends to enemies. The blatant actions of foolish groups lead to this resulting action overseas. Again parsimony requires that we view this without judgmental coloration tainting the results. Just because we do not like the current administration or the people running it, do we need to adulterate the outcome to make it suite our view or should we view the facts with an unbiased view and see the truth fro what it is. A band of terrorist hijacked several planes after lengthy planning and preparations and attacked us. They archived their goals, for the most part, only thwarted by the passengers and crew of one flight from making it happen en total . To diminish the bravery and heroism that took place that day, by saying that it was a conspiracy, belittles the bravery and unselfish sacrifices made that day by the few for the many.

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

Joshua Sweet

I am for your opinion completely, many thanks for airing it so eruditely for us all.

Your points are perhaps the most well put reply to this idea I have read. Thank you.

Every time I read these theories, I cringe, simmer then boil over to a state where cogent writing is simply not possible.

The idea that a group of government employees who have, in many cases, dedicated their lives to protect this country, would willfully attack it in order to force a specific action is really insulting. As you rightly point out, it is a secret that could never be kept. However I would argue it is a plan which could never find a constituency within our government organizations either.

Since the majority of American's do not give public service during their lives, perhaps they cannot comprehend the deep convictions many public servants have. They certainly don't do it for the money.

A group of terrorists attacked us on September 11th, 2001 and murdered almost 3000 people and irreparably harmed many many more. As I watched that day unfold, and frantically tried to reach a sibling we feared lost, I remember the cold feeling that we were at war, it only was a question with whom.

Terrorism is a real war. Shrinking from it will not make it any less so. To quote a rather prominent American:

Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace--but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! -Patrick Henry We didn't start this, but we better finish it right.

1: The evidence was not thoroughly examined by authorities.

2: Steven Jones HAS found evidence of explosives (low speed/high heat)

3. Look at USGS gc/ms analysis. Can you explain 4% Magnesium in the dust?

4. Pyroclastic cloud flow observed indicate very high heat of dust.

5. Um, I do believe someone tried to blow up the towers in 1991, so the idea of explosives being used in an attempt to destroy the towers is anything but ludicrous.

6. No plane hit wtc 7

7. In a criminal investigation one asks: "who benefits from the crime?" (that question opens an non-technical treatment, I will not broach here)

8. Would AlQ reasonably believe the buildings would collapse from airplane attack? If the first attack did not bring down the tower when the second plane approached, would it not have made more sense to launch a SECOND attack on the weakened tower? Or, was the purpose merely to distract everyone?

9. Why was there molten steel for weeks after the collapse with dozens of fire hoses trained on the craters?

If you are going to invoke Occam's razor, then, the most likely cause of a straight down collapse 3 times in 8 hours for the first and only time in history, would be deliberate action of some sort. Clearly the buildings were not brought down from the impact unless you argue some sort of very slowly propagating failure.

Oh my God.

Okay .. no time to respond to all of this .. but just quickly: Your #8. No they didn't intend to collapse the towers. They were perfectly happy just driving a plane into it and seeing what happens. Maybe it will fall over. If not ... well they were happy with the hundreds killed by the impact, and more importantly, the whole terror factor of the event.

So no ... flying plane #2 into the first target again would not have made more sense to them.

What I've written above comes from watching Osama's "victory speech" afterwards.

So your #8 doesn't hold water. I'm not sure if others will even bother to punch holes in the rest of your list. I don't have the time myself.

My own personal opinion is that the resulting fires, so weakened the structure at that point, that those floors collapsed, of course with the help of the weight of the building above the point where the aircraft had penetrated.

This worked like a hammer blow on the next level, collecting weight and speed.

I am guessing, but as a floor collapses, what happens to the air on that floor, does it get blown out of the building, looking like explosions? Is that a possibility? Why was explosive residue NOT found? If the conspiracy theory is to be believed!

If the planes had only(!) hit the upper floor of each building, maybe we would be telling a completely different tale today!

Please time the collapse and apply t=(2x/g)^(1/2)

The pancake theory is impossible (google "Mjolnir Antithesis")

The collapse timing could only occur if supports were removed prior to impact.

We must also account for dust, dust, dust.

I love engineering. It is unfortunate that the one place I go to get away from the Bush hater virus has now become infected.

I will make just one comment - We fear no democracy, with or without nuclear weapons. Freeing mankind is the noblest goal of all and essential in the age of the atom. Bush has been right all along. Proliferation of nukes makes democracy more imoprtant than ever. Men with machine guns do not make it to the leadership of a mature democracy. Give women the vote (the greatest fear of Islam) and there will be peace. Yes America fights for the purple thumbs; they are weak now but soon, with our help, they will be strong. And mothers will teach their children to build careers not bombs.

Did someone say cringe? I too, cringe; with shame, embarrassment, even pity. I find myself wondering what is wrong with the conspiracy theory people. Is it a chemical deficiency in the brain? Something from their childhood? I suppose some day some psychologist will do a study and figure it out. Figure out how they twist facts into their own mangled version, and in turn call them "facts". If only they could apply all this effort into something that will benefit mankind ... because it is a massive amount of passion that they feel in their theories. Of that, there is no doubt.

But there is no solution. They will think what they think. And we all are allowed our thoughts. But it's still a shame. A damn shame. And I can only shake my head.

And on that note, I apologize for interjecting such emotional issues into a forum that is meant for science. A science that we all love. And the nature of science is that we keep it free of emotion and stick with facts. But still I shake my head in pity.

For an accurate idea of what happened on 9/11, read this link done by Popular Mechanics. They are a non political group with no axe to grind. If you won't believe this then you don't believe facts.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

I do see a common thread of logic here, it's just that working with a conspiracy theory does not mean one was dropped on ones head as a child. There are those out in the cold cruel world that are working with some who follow the path of "Whatever the Leaders are doing is right and Just"

Unfortunately those of us who subscribe to critical thinking like to examine these multiple paths to the "Truth" before choosing one that looks best. There are critical people who give credit to the parents of the "True Believers" as the ones who were dropped on their heads when young.

Either way you hash it out the total story has been safely locked away, because the evidence for the "Three buildings" that came crashing down is packed away far from investigation. Why is that you think? Was there something to hide?

Now for "Three buildings" to come crashing down just so, like they do in the demolition movies, and have all of the evidence hauled off without an investigation, putt's the blame squarely on someone's shoulders it looks like to me.

We have been around long enough to know that people can be convinced that something tragic can be done by a leader just about anything will convince some people that the "Greater Good" has been served by the "Heinous act.".

If this were not so, then Jones Town and the like could never happen, but it does. We Engineers who make things good and bad happen in this world need to step back once in a while and determine for ourselves if we are doing the world a service, or taking away precious freedom that will not be returned ever.

In an old children's tale a Blacksmith was asked to make un-breakable chains for the King. He was the candidate for those chains. We Engineers are now tasked with making chains for the rest of society, under the guise of "Good Intention" watchfulness. Look closely at what has happened in this world, those chains will be bound to us the creators far tighter than the other mortals out there.

If we accept this story and never question it, and never get the truth told we are doomed in our future.

• The evidence of the buildings demise is located in several places, not the least of which is a dump area in New York. The remains were sifted by people for months in order to remove the human remains from the building remains. Further, multiple first hand accounts support the evidence found that in fact the planes were more than capable of bringing down the towers, due in part to the design of the towers themselves and the travel they provided the jet fuel.
• Your greater good / heinous act is not supported by any evidence other than your claim of not being able to personally access the evidence.
• Jonestown supports more the claim of an Al Qaeda attack rather than a government conspiracy. Like 9-11, Jonestown was a crime perpetrated by religious fanatics, with no government involvement. Religious fanaticism seems to be the motivation for such heinous acts, which implicates Al Qaeda, not the US Government. (Also Waco)
• I have no idea what your blacksmiths tale is supposed to mean, but Engineers have done a great deal to both help and hurt the world. It is worth noting that the hurt requires personal decisions from people. One would hope that engineers like all other people would use some moral compass in their development endeavors.
• Questioning history is fine, revisionist history is dangerous. What strikes me here is that you advocate questioning, but you appear to ignore all evidence which is contrary to your presupposed outcome. That is not science, that is politics.

I am assuming here that you actually are an Engineer. Abet not a well read one I am afraid. This act of terror ( created by whom? ) is now being used to steal what little is left of freedom of thought and spoken world and deed even now.

I take it that you do not read the technical journals and even this esteemed site "CR4" and see what questions have been asked that impact your and mine future freedom derives from the movement and application of that information and technology. One cannot teach where it's not welcome. I have a young child who now will be learning life by the rule of Hard Work, due to stubbornness and thinking they "Know everything already"

The patterns of life it's self are evident all around us and so few take heed for even their own good. A pity that.

I've got a feeling that ElCee is well-read enough.

But I digress ... My question is this: dbdwoods, I find I must ask .... Do you have any suspicions that the Apollo landing just might have been faked on Earth? After all, if you examine the footage frame by frame ....... you know, those shadow angles and all .....

Suspicions; Oh I have truckloads of them. Somewhere about 7 to 14 years of age I found out that all that comes from "Authority" is not to be trusted 100%, more like 5% to 10% you can lay your money down on. With age and experience one moves past Cynic and outright Disbelief into a realm where each fact if indeed it is a fact is examined for truth. I am not "Diagonese....Looking for truth" and spend my cycles looking under rocks and asking strangers for the "Truth". Neither do I buy the story that comes from every established "Authority" either. Remember Global Warming is not happening either, and Coal and Oil emissions have nothing to do with it at all. Also cutting down all of the trees is great for wildlife and makes great forests.

One can go on and on quoting different "Authority" figures and the great things they say they are doing for US, Joe Average Citizen. I will not do that.

Again I say the patterns of life it's self are given all around us. The secrets of this fantastic life are given freely to those who Listen, Look, Question the Efficacy, and see what is really there.

It ain't Rocket Science but asking questions and looking for answers does actually work. One must of course give the "Devil His Due" to make it actually work. Without actually looking at an opposing opinion or a "Out of place Fact" how can the real fact be verified and made true?

Hell I even listen to the "Prez and his Gang" once in a while to hear what the scoundrels are up to.

I personally find it interesting that seemingly "normal" westerners question such acts and even believe that their own government could possibly be responsible.......the conspiracy fears etc etc...

Complete and utter hogwash to my mind.....9/11 has been shown by many serious people to be exactly what it was, an attack on the USA by Terrorists from A.K.....the conspiracy theories just allow people to sell newspapers to gullible simple people...eg. make money.

It is also extremely sad though that simple Muslims around the world are lead by a few hardcore clever fanatics (to clever to let themselves be killed in such ways!! Some might even call them complete cowards) to believe that by dying for such causes (blowing themselves up etc etc) that they are earning themselves a place in heaven. When of course that is not true. No benevolent God would allow that, if there is one, and if there isn't one, no one to supply the Houris either!!!!!

My (incomplete) readings of the Koran (sadly only in English!) do not let me understand that such actions are condoned by this (or for that matter, any other) religion. Some input in this area would be greatly appreciated if supported by religious documents etc that we could search for an read, or Koran extracts that we can also look up.....

Neither does the Holy Bible support such actions against innocent people either....though it contains massive violence as well in many of its books....input here would also be appreciated.

For example :-"an eye for an eye" means that you go against those who wounded you in the first place, they are not innocent.....

Therefore I offer two simple possible conclusions:-

Possible conclusion 1, all religions are a complete farce (not my own personal belief) and that these people are just dying early, taking innocent people with them, for nothing at all. Thankfully removing themselves at the same time from the Gene pool of the world! No Houris here boys!

Possible conclusion 2, that there is a God (worshipped in many different and interesting ways all around the world, by many different peoples, each in their own unique ways) and that we will be judged one way or another eventually.......eg. a heaven and a Hell possibility......then these terrorists will all be sitting in hell with Adolf Hitler, Mao, Saddam and his family and lots of other similar people.....also no Houris here boys!!!

I tend personally to believe more in the 2nd possibility. Whether I am right or wrong will be clear once I have died.....not before.

But either way, I sincerely believe that nothing useful is ever achieved by such acts of violence as practised in Israel and Iraq (to name just two).

Generally speaking people will never be convinced to change their minds under such duress.....so whether possibility 1 or 2 is the "real" after world is relatively unimportant, the effects/changes achieved are still zero......

...other than the effect of removing vast quantities of genes from the world's pool as I mentioned earlier......

It would be much better for all if all the leaders of all the worlds religions concentrated themselves on stopping such violence as quickly as possible, and leaving politics completely alone - because if there really is a God.....................they have really blown it!!!

I do expect a lot of input back from you all, but try and be friendly at the same time, even if you completely disagree with what I wrote.....thanks in advance.

Perhaps we need a CR4 Blog for religions......

No, Qura'an does not say that the blowing up yourselves is right. As a matter of fact the suicide is forbidden and frowned upon.

Please get the Holy Qura'an from a reputable translator and read it carefully with open mindedness. It is the religion of peace and tranquility and do not go and think all of them are evils. No they are not.

Neither does Bible say to blow yourself and go to heaven. Torah does nat say that either. But as far back as we go, more people are killed in the name of God and religion and those idiots are very happy that they killed the other guys.

The media has put so much blame on Muslims and Islam that an ordinary person thinks that they, the Muslims, are evil peole and mostly the so called media expert have no idea of Isamic teaching or idealogy. They just sensationalize the news to sell the newspaper or read the news on TV.

I am not defending Muslims but letting people to read a little bit about them, the Muslims and their religion, Islam, before forming any opinions. Bad and good people are every where and have no names or religion. Would we say that Timothy Mcveigh did something wrong and entire American nation or Christian world is bad? No, of course not. Only one person did bad thing and paid for and left all of us to grieve for the dear departed ones.

What is a religion, one may ask? (I am not teaching or preaching any one) It is the set of rules and guidelines to live your life and do not hurt any one. Some people do not follow and a large populace suffers for it.

Regards;

Nadeem Butt

07182007

Nadeem, fantastic and well put, you echo my thoughts exactly.

My Father was a great believer in the teachings of the Koran, though he was also a Christian, he was also an intelligent man who loved all people, totally regardless of creed or color. I try and follow his example, but badly I feel.

With a lot more people with Nadeems outlook on life, this world would be a much better place for us all....

Thank you for your opinion of the teachings of the Koran as well, it is what I also believe, but I have yet to finish reading it...

You are so right!

Even when religious fanatics are blowing themselves up all over the world, they blame Bush for 9/11.Even when Bin Laden has admitted to 9/11 on video, they blame Bush

Even when a revolutionary Islamic imam (The Grand Supreme Ayatollah) dictaor of Iran is about to go nuclear, they blame Bush. And if we run away from the struggle and suffer Kamikazi nuclear attacks, even then, they will blame the President.

No matter what the evidence the conspiracy nuts will continue to attack him.

They are driven by hatred and they are led by rationalization. They are willing to risk their country and the freedom of all posterity to hurt him.

...and if terrorists get hold of radioactive material and make a few dirty bombs, a large part of the US (or Europe) could become completely uninhabitable for many thousands of years.....

And for those of you who do not know what a dirty bomb is, its just spent nuclear fuel for example and some explosives, it is not a true nuclear bomb per se... No nuclear explosion. Its just dirty....

For people who are so into hatred that they will kill their own countrymen with car bombs etc.,there is no hope for them at all.....

Anyone who kills on the basis of religion (differences of) is also a complete nut case.....

a small point, but one I've found interesting......

it seems so many people forget that Bush is a religious fanatic, or at least pretends to be.

But Christianity is such a peaceful, democratic religion that has no history of violence or abuses of power which serve as precedence for suspicion....

Warmonger and the world terrorist (There is no religion attached to any terrorist) are the correct words for him who destroyed the entire world's peace.

How right you are Nadeem0430. sad but true more people have been killed in the name of religion than saved.

....and your point is???????

As you may have read in one of my entries, I feel that it really does not matter what your viewpoint on religion is, as a terrorist, killing innocent people and himself with a bomb for example, you are not going to get your Houris in heaven, even if some cowardly fanatic on earth promised you faithfully that you would....(if a heaven - as a word to use - actually exists) and you certainly are not going to get them if there is no hereafter......!

Many learned people have read the Koran and said that the Koran does not tell people to do this or anything like it.....only a few clever but cowardly immans seem to be able to interpret the Koran in such a manner....

The active terrorist is just dumb cannon fodder, nothing more nothing less...he is there to carry out the cowardly requests of Al Quaida people who would not actually have the guts themselves to do it or anything like it.....just how dumb can people get?

At least he has taken his Genes out of the world's gene pool.....

The person who started this thread opened up the discussion on the validity of a conspiracy theory concerning the demolition of the Trade Center buildings on 9/11. Please try to stick to the topic and respect the opinions of others even in the process of expressing opposing opinions. Sometimes is difficult to avoid wandering into politics and religion in the discussion of engineering and science, but when that happens we should start another discussion separately. There are plenty of us would jump right into those discussions.

Also if you have a statement of facts or a theory based on facts or at least personal observation they are welcome on this forum. If you just want to throw out political or religious barbs designed to stir people up then go play on yahoo or somewhere else where that kind of antagonistic rhetoric is welcome. It is not welcome here. If you do decide to decide to share in the discussions of the intelligent and respectful members of this forum, please have the courtesy to register and identify yourself.

Since I'm on that course. We have been seeing a lot of really offensive comments by guests. Maybe commentary should be limited to registered members. What do you other members think of that idea?

A very great idea that we should stick to the engineering discussions only. I am also the victim of this temptations to get involved in the discussions other than engineering and I am stopping right here and right now. No more participation on any thing other than engineering. I thought many times to let the participants know that, please stick to technical discussions only but did not heart to do so (or plainly timid). Guess you woke me up. Thank you.

Regards;

Nadeem Butt

07182007

Sorry, I do not agree to stay only in Engineering, we should be able to discuss anything on CR4.

If you do not want to join in a particular discussion, then stay out, its your personal choice and your choice only.

Andy Germany:

I did not mean to offend any one. I tender my most sincere aplogies if I hurt your feelings. I was just saying as the discussion was turning into personal attacks and was heating up. The argument or discussion is good if it produces more light that the heat. I shall take yoru advice.

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings.

Regards;

Nadeem Butt

07192007

Nadeem, my feelings are fine, you did not hurt them, everyone (you and me both!) is fully entitled to his opinion......

I just feel that we on CR4 should discuss everything, not just Engineering, thats all i meant to say, but it was a bit short and easily misunderstood.....

My sincere apologies if you thought from my rather curt entry (my failure), that I was upset in anyway at all.

Nadeem, I value your opinion, let us stay friends.....

Not at all, Andy. I am OK.

Although I feel that anyone who believes in a conspiracy by the US Government with regard to 9/11 to be at least one cup short of a full cupboard, I also find some guests boring, hiding behind the guest name so to say.

BUT, I do have the feeling that it might be negative in general to ban them, they know who they are, they read the replies castigating what they have said, maybe we can educate them too, who knows?

I will go with the flow on this one as I do not have an opinion as what is best with regard to guests, sorry.

OK dbdwoods you have an opinion and I have mine. I spent a lot of time in Europe in the 80s and 90s looking under my car every morning prior to work. I was looking for fire extinguisher bombs. So, in your theory who was flying the airplanes? The "Security Team"? Does your theory cover the first attempt to bomb the Trade Center? Who attacked the USS Cole? The Marine barracks? The disco club in Berlin? The Officers Club in Frankfurt? The Army's Fifth Corps Headquarters in Frankfurt? Due to forgetfulness or a lack of media coverage there are a group us us that have faced terrorism on a daily basis. It didn't get the coverage or attention of 9/11 because it was happening overseas and didn't inflict the casualties of 9/11. The lack of media coverage of the overseas events most likely promoted the inspiration of a larger event closer to the media. Does your theory also cover the fact the the Trade Center event happened right during the morning shows on ABC, CBS, and NBC that were blocks away? Also under your theory where was the 4ht aircraft headed? Was the field in Pennsylvania the final target in your theory? Is your real name Rosie O'Donnell?

K.Roman, you have a way with words that would make an Irishmen envious, wonderful, almost prose.....we need more like you on CR4!!!

If words were punches, you would be the heavyweight champ of the world!!

CR4 Needs people like you to take the day and shake it by its heels!!!

Stay alive and well and online my friend!!

Thank you Sir. I've enjoyed your comments as well. Since it's happy hour in your location, enjoy a Romer Binding Pils on my behalf.

......ONE???????

At least drei Bier Bitte......

The war has everyone riled up. But there is relevance to engineering: Iran is using proxies and denying their atrocities so that people will blame the media (See the above comment) instead of the source of the violence which is the Islamic revolution.

It would be just an annoyance were it not for the engineering of the atom; that makes it relevant to us all. if the dictator of Iran gets nukes – and it looks inevitable - the Islamic revolution will go nuclear. Proxy war is a most dangerous situation as the shooter can be anywhere making effective retaliation impossible. And so it is a realistic exercise for theorists and engineers, both military and civilian to consider the impact of The Bomb if Islamists use it.

We know that with suicide delivery there is no need for missiles or bombers so delivery platforms are out of the discussion. But the size of a nuclear device, the destructive capability and the aftermath calculations of an attack is relevant and can be discussed intelligently and without emotion.

I will ask the fist questions.

A small device, like the one we dropped on Japan - say 15 kiloton:

Would there be any need to import such a device, or just hit any beach?

How big of a boat or sub is necessary for kamikaze style delivery?

Can a system be developed to protect our entire shoreline?

How big will the crater be?

How long would the area be devastated?

Are bigger bombs than 15 kiloton possible – or likely?

I think another appropriate question is: Not so much how big, but how small? Small enough to come in by shipping container, car, small airplane, individual person? How small could it be and still be effective? How do we protect ourselves? Many feel that the best protection is prevention. If we don't allow such devices to be built then they can't be delivered. Simply put, don't allow countries with unstable, agressive, irresponsible governments to have the technology. The very first responsibility of any government it to protect it's citizens regardless of who might be offended in the process. It must be accepted that there are greedy, agressive, call them evil if you wish leaders in the world whose goal is our destruction. History has proven that shaking hands and talking nice is not effective protection from such leaders. Yes, this is relevant to engineering. Take all of the possibilities and put them into a flow chart and see where it takes you. As with any other engineering problem you will find that there are human elements involved that must be compensated for and action may be required to prevent disaster.

One of the major problems facing terrorists, is not how to build the bomb per se, the procedure is well documented and alarmingly simple.

Especially if you can get hold of fissionable material and do not care if your workers die at regular intervals.....

Even simpler is a dirty bomb, 10 KG of fissionable material and 50 KG of dynamite and you can make a large part of a major city untenable theoretically for 1000s of years. Even a clean-up operation might take years.....a tiny part of one gram of such material can kill 1000s of people in the water supply for example.....and very slowly too....

It really is not funny to die of radioactive poisoning.......

I was not even considering dirty bombs, but you are obviously right. Since the technology is already public domain then there is all the more reason to contain the manufacture of the materials. If we don't then the future may be very ugly indeed. A treaty is only as good as the morals of the first people to sign it and the power of those affected to enforce it.

I sort of look at this like the mathmatical word problems we used to get in grade school. To solve the problem you remove all the irelevant junk to get to a valid equation. You then reduce everything to the least common denominators and solve the problem. When you reduce it all down it becomes me against him and he wants to kill me. Now solve the problem.

Ok, I'll take the bait.

Since you want to go far afield of engineering, let's go.

1: Read interview with Pakistan's ISI chief at the time.

2: Find precedent for a civilian command of at least five military exercises scheduled for that day. Who ordered them?

3: find slowest response time by NORAD .. ever.

4: Look up Norman Minetta's testimony to commission regarding "do the orders stand?"

5: Look up Operation Northwoods

6: Look up Edward Saleem (sp) and the tape he made of conversations with his FBI handlers.

7:Read transcripts of '93 bombing trial testimony from Saleem

8: Look up who was in the Ryder rental office in '93

9:lookup bomb sniffing dogs reaction to van in NJ on 9/11 and company who owned it.

10: lookup another van found near Sear tower on 9/11 and who owned it.

11: Find number of warnings ignored at the time and subsequently disavowed ("we were taken by surprise, during multiple military exercises"?)

and for an even 12:

Find Egyptian newspaper reporting the death of OBL in December of 2001 (so much for the undisputed veracity of the taped "confession" of OBL)

Fascinating:

How things get off track, we have a video showing explosions running down the side of a couple of buildings. We have a leader whose relative was running the security in charge of the place. The same leader has over a Billion from the guys over in Dubai. The Billion of gold in the basement went where? There were people from a certain county not there during that blast and building demolition.

I do not belittle or in any way detract from those who,: have put their butt's and lives on the line for the rest of the free world time and again.

I do think that this has been miss managed when it comes to placing the tail on the elephant. I know that my opinions are just that. However the "New World Order" coming out of this long drawn out bit of horror will make us all quite a bit uncomfortable before it is at it's cumulating point.

We are getting daily in-undated with more technology about RFID implants and security devices that will make us all transparent to all of those in authority. We are engineers and not social designers. There are those designing a future that leaves little freedom, such as Orwell predicted.

I just ask is the price a bit high to live in the Orwell future? Also when one examines the data from all sources, we were skunked into giving up all of our freedoms. The finely managed future we are building is coming at a great price.

That is my two bits what others make of it is their own business. From what I can see I know my future will be under this new horror show regime coming.

Why I mean Why would anyone used to freedom want to approve of this kind of future

I do not think that I trust myself to put pen to paper (fingers to keyboard?) and answer your email fully as any honest answer from me will just upset you......but one point I must say, the "explosions" you mentioned were just air being compressed at each floor level as all and everything was being crushed, then being "explosively forced out of the building sideways.....the Popular Mechanics explanation fits the bill 100%, the conspiracy theory falls down all over the place....it might make a good film, that is all......

Today we are in the future from yesterday, the rules have changed, they will keep changing, nobody is fighting fair (?). We must move with the times. Tomorrow we will be in todays future, look lively or you will be left behind......mentally at least!

For me the conspiracy theory never did hold water, but those that want to cling to it further may of course do so, but please just keep it to yourselves, the rest of us are not in the slightest bit interested.

We want to get on with our lives....live the future, try and learn from the past, not forget any ill wrongs done us by anyone, pay them back when possible using the same currency - keep going whatever the future brings.....good or bad.

Andy Germany, you've done far far better in replying to that 'gentleman" than I could have done. Your self control is an admirable quality. Particularly when things like patriotism, or other passionate feelings are in the mix. Besides patriotism, common sense is an issue here. It's blatantly obvious why the windows are blowing out in turn as each floor collapses upon the next. It doesn't even warrant argument. And again I must wonder if a denial of that is based on some chemical imbalance, or childhood issues ... or God knows what. I don't know what upsets me more ... dbd's attack on my government and our system of government that hundreds of thousands have given their life to develop and defend .... or the sheer idiocy of the accusation. And this guy calls himself an engineer? Truly and simply amazing. Amazing!!

Yes I may be verging on being offensive to Mr. dbdwood ... but I have already stated that I've taken huge offence to his verbal attack on my country, and everything it implies; including his implication that "Americans" as a whole could be so blind and stupid as to elect a government that could actually commit such an unspeakably horrendous crime against it's own people. AGAINST ITS OWN PEOPLE. It's true that the German people once allowed an atrocious government to be elected, but that differed in the fact that its crimes were against a particular group of people within its borders. That is a different story entirely. But dbd's accusation is that it was an American led attack against all of America ... randomly.

I am an Independent and affiliated with neither American political party. My logic and love is for my country. It's people like this "engineer" who act as lemmings behind men like Michael Moore who instigate such offensive conspiratorial nonsense. I would so love to see how many millions of dollars Moore has made by helping divide America by influencing the weak minded minions.

Is it to divide us? Am I falling prey to clever propaganda from dbdwoods ... who is relishing in the rise he got out of me and others? Should I now suspect that he is in fact an al queda operative who enjoys spreading dissent amongst us? No. I don't believe I'll suspect that theory. But who knows, eh?

I guess he's just smarter than all the rest of us. He's got it figured ... where all the rest of us millions have failed to catch on. Probably the tons of explosive needed to wire all those floors was smuggled up in the heels of the shoes of the evil caretakers of the building ... and the bulky attachments of wire and explosive on all those structural members on all those floors was disguised as a bunch of office plants. Perhaps Ficus Trees? Hm. Yeah, probably. That must be it. Sorry dbd ... I guess you're right afterall. I didn't figure on the Ficus Trees. Sorry again. I guess your engineering theory holds water. The explosives were probably in the soil of the plants as each American conspirator left his explosive shoe in the flower pot each day, and the wires disguised as vines. If you watch the film reeeeal close, you can see a Ficus Plant fly out as each floor exploded.

Out of Box Experience your letter was a treat for me, many, many thanks, I got tears in my eyes from laughing, absolutely brilliant. You should be writing fun books to keep us all amused and happy...

I agree,it is difficult to stay cool sometimes in the face of total stupidity and naiveness that some people have. Their willingness ALWAYS to believe the worst in other people, especially politicians they did not vote for.....etc etc.

They have a gene that doe not allow them to recognise truth, because they cannot compute logically, nor understand truth when it is staring them in the face.......

I grew up with a brother who believes EVERYTHING he reads in those rags that do not deserve to be called newspapers, each country has its own versions the UK & the USA have many.....!!!

I remember the "secret Russian base" at the far side of the moon in the late 60s and early 70s, which was why the US Astronauts were not allowed to talk when the moon capsule went behind the moon !!! He was worried for months!!!! (He is still worried!!)

Then he believed that they actually never went there (to the moon!) it was all done on the earth.....etc etc etc etc

Thinking about my brother, who has some serious personal problems, maybe these sort of people NEED such conspiracy theories as some reason to prove their own existence or something......or to take their mind away for a short time from their own built in problems....sort of Walter Mitty like......

Please, please do believe though that these people are far far less than 1 % of the total population, just like terrorists in Iraq, who are less than 0.001% of the population....

They make a lot of noise, they cause a lot of grief BUT THEY ARE NOT YOUR AVERAGE JOE!!! Either here, in the USA or in Iraq......or anywhere.

FAR MORE THAN 99% OF THE WORLDS POPULATION ARE ORDINARY, NORMAL PEOPLE, JUST GETTING ON WITH THEIR LIVES IN A PEACFULL NORMAL WAY.....

Have a great day.

Andy Germany, thanx for validating my "rant". I was quite sure that when I woke up this morning, my message would have vanished for being too personal. I'm glad it wasn't. I also know that many of the other readers of CR4 also had similar thoughts but just didn't want to lower themselves enough to be so plainspoken and tell this guy what they really think. Personally I have no problem with being petty! But I saw you taking him on, mostly by yourself ... and I felt a need to support a comrade. (Uh oh ... I said "comrade". I bet that means I'm a commie in conspira-speak!)

I'm sorry about your brother. It's a shame. The first emotion I feel for those people is pity. But when they keep at it ... particularly when they get all self-righteous and act like their theories are well known facts ... well then, I have to admit, a bit ashamedly, that anger sets in. Did you notice, despite the several times that you mentioned the Popular Mechanics article ... which goes over the "mechanics" of the event quite clearly, scientifically and un-biasedly ... he turned a deaf ear and not once mentioned it or its clear explanation. Selective hearing, it's called. That's what really gets me.

I too know several people personally, who are Conspiracy Theorists. I mention chemical imbalance because it reminds one of people who suffer from depression. I mention childhood experience because it reminds one of someone with any kind of phobia (I myself suffer from extreme arachnophobia ... But at least I admit it). But I'm no doctor, so those theories are totally baseless and could be totally off base.

I'm glad I gave you a chuckle with my Ficus Tree theory. Oftentimes the best way to deal with the absurd, is with the equally absurd. But just to be on the safe side, I believe I will take our office plant and throw it in the dumpster. One cannot be too careful! The staged moon-landing in a secret studio is another one ... don't even get me started. But that one isn't nearly as offensive, because it isn't as insulting ... it isn't personal and dealing with the deaths of so many innocents. It's just plain wacko. Dbd never did answer my question about what his opinion on that is.

Okay then, I've had enough of this heavy subject. I'm going to go to another section and ask a question about rainbows. I saw one on the way to work this morning. It got me to pondering ...

To you too Andy, and to all my fellow CR4ians ... including dbdwoods ... I wish you all a great day! Peace, shalom, and party on dudes!

Hear, hear.

Andy:

I still read your comments with others with interest. Boy, you guys are gong so deep that it makes it mind boggling (but informative) thus interesting and challenging for a lay man like me.

Have a blessed day and enjoy to the fullest.

Regards;

Nadeem

"The staged moon-landing in a secret studio is another one .."

filmed at TRW in Redondo Beach California

Least we forget history the "Maine" and Pearl Harbor were also staged events

How come this so called secret was so secret so far?

Would NASA admit that?

During my visit to NASA, they even dodged my question about it and told me that there was stick in the flag to keep it hoisting without the ripples. They did not respond as to why the flag had ripples when there was no air on the Moon.

God Almighty knows what is the TRUTH.

Regards;

Nadeem Butt

07262007

Hello Nadeem

I hope your post was "tongue-in-cheek", however if it wasn't, please go to the following link where your answer can finally be read:

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast23feb_2.htm

HOLY COW! Do we actually have a Moon Landing Conspiratist in our midsts here on CR4??

Please do tell if it was tongue in cheek. Dieing to know.

Hmm maybe they have an argument afterall. I remember the Bond movie "Diamonds are Forever" where James Bond breaks into a building and there is a set with guys in astronaut suits walking on what could only be described as a moon surface - of course when James Bond shows up in the background, the gig is up and a chase begins what with moon buggies chasing him across the Nevada desert! Now EVERYONE knows that James Bond is REAL!! So therefore the moon conspiracy is real - afterall he is the one that truly exposed it!!!

Setting that all aside, thank you Nadeem for your comments :)

Thanks, Impact for the response.

I read it carefully and my answer is like this.

If NASA went to the Moon, well and good and

If NASA did not go to the Moon, well and good.

It is always enjoyable to read the conflicting stories and walk away with nothing as started with nothing.

Once again, Thanks.

Regards;

Nadeem

Regards;

Nadeem

See you can think.

Now some of the real threats to our society are manifest. But if you hide them by obscurification like they are doing by sending out kook ideas like 9/11 being preprogrammed, like the left is doing, the real threats become hidden among the silly notions and real thinkers pass over because of the smell of the silliness.

RFID and where is the money coming from.

RFID and subsequent technologies are dangerous and the scientists using and perfecting them should all consider the wrong uses as well as the good that can be done. Safegaurds should be built into the technology.

The money is coming from IRAN for one, other countries involved:?

In our society there are rich organizations that tout democracy, but any idea or ideal that does not fit their mold (Communism) is crushed from within They hijacked the Democratic party without some lifelong, good Democrats even lifting their head out of the sand long enough to notice ,(look what happened to Lieberman???? Presidential candidate then ousted from the party!!!)(Control of the media goes a long way).

We each have our theories and feel that something is afoot., but make sure you have some cold hard facts before making your accusation.

Liberals, leftists, progressives, socialists, egalitarians, communists, socially conscious, activists, or whatever they call themselves on a particular day, must have a gene that causes this mental aberration. I have tried to figure them out all my life.

They are a passionate and emotional crowd that follows their intelligentsia like a flock of birds. They possess a special gene that gives them both talent for rationalization and the aptitude to believe the spin they fabricate. They are able to justify within themselves the opposite of the truth by subliminal internalization of the facts that match the desired conclusion.

This process in psychological terms is called dialectical materialism, a type of rhetorical argumentation first proposed by a German philosopher called Hagel. Subsequently, it was embraced by Hagel's contemporary, Karl Marx. The method uses the inherent differences within every issue to manipulate the facts to support socialism - metaphysical materialism – or the source of life (reality) is material rather than spiritual. In theory the philosophy requires the dictatorship of the proletariat (worker) to achieve actualization.

Karl Marx however did not imagine the Industrial Age passing away, nor people fleeing the city preferring sprawl. The Industrial Age has given way to real progress -individualism powered by the information age.

The National Socialist exterminated millions, the communist socialists murdered tens of millions more, Mao and Pol Pot continued the tradition of death for those who disagreed. American socialists have been more sedate and subtle in America where we like capitalism – it is the golden goose and, obviously, it has been good to us.

But nations that have attempted the Marxist-socialist paradigm have consistently failed, for the implementation of it becomes de facto shared poverty as it destroys incentive and innovation inherent with capitalism. Why work or compete when there is no motivation, no real need. It encourages state dependancy and sloth.

Still "progressives" hang on in the persistent hope for a tyranny of the majority where all wealth is distributed evenly and all are equal. They are neo-monarchists, their king being populism – a distortion of democracy and a despotism of the worst order – run by the mob.

Leftists, I prefer to call them leftists – because they are the opposite of what is right, cannot accept any truth but what consummates their disdain for capitalism. They like to frame this hatred as an anti, "International Corporation" rather than anti capitalism. But a rose by any other name, caused by an errant gene or just stupidity, socialism has been the worst catastrophe in civilization since man left the cave.

Leftists have succeeded in destroying the effort to solve the problem in the Middle East by slandering the Commander in Chief. And unfortunately, because they shout the loudest, their side is winning – the problem is whose side are they on?

The Left side?

Is this the longest forum here ?

I think I'm liking corneliusvansant. Well put.

We have had 40-something presidents. They could all be compared to each other and based on some list of specifications, be listed from best to worst. In my opinion, in retrospect, President Bush is not in the top half. But the fact is that we elected him ... twice. By our own unique American method.

If you don't agree with him, fine. If you don't like him, fine. Here is the answer ... VOTE IN SOMEONE BETTER. What kind of a no-brainer is that? Jeeze people, c'mon. Or better yet ... YOU get elected and do a better job. Then YOU can please EVERYONE!

But for now he is our leader. For now he is The Commander in Chief of our armed forces. In case you haven't noticed ... our troops are fighting and dieing right now. Every one of you that has worked so hard to ridicule our leader to the world, including our enemies, has contributed to some soldiers death. How you ask? By giving that much more strength to those that wish to kill them. And all of you combined have added a hell of a lot of strength to the other side.

For right now, he is our leader. Whether he is a genius .. or not so much. But WE put him there. America put him there, by a method we agreed on. I support him because of that. And I will support the next one because of that, whether I like him or not. And the next. Can you imagine how quickly this bloody conflict would be over if ALL of America supported him and ALL the nonsense stopped. And the world saw that We are ONE. UNITED! Can you imagine what that would mean? ... and be perceived?

As much as I'm proud to be American (my parents escaped Nazis so that I could be one) ... as much as I'm proud ... I'm also that much ashamed of so many of us. Conspiratists ... Radical Liberals ... all of you that are rotting us from the inside. If you are not going to help us, then Shut The * Up! And grow up.

And for Pete's sake ... Vote. That's how it's done.

Hey Outofboxexperience, I think you have an interesting point. The lack of responsibility we Americans are willing to accept is stunning. This is our government, for which we voted. We have an obligation to change it if we don't agree with its actions. Conversely, we also have collective responsibility for the actions it has taken.

I hear much talk of what this administration has done wrong, some of it quite valid in my opinion. But I fail to see where the war on terror is a political question. This is a non partisan war begun by a group who doesn't really care about party affiliation. Opinions of Bush have little to do with prosecuting this war. It is a sad statement about politics that we are not all united in this war on terrorists.

Some blame for Bush: There was no call to service after 9-11. The silence was stunning. We were told to go about our business, spend money and keep on doing what we had been doing. What madness was this? We were attacked finally at home (after many unanswered attacks abroad). We, the citizens, of this country, were asked to do nothing! That was a true mistake. Are we such lemmings? We are the first generation in this country to be attacked and not sacrifice as a nation for the return battle. We don't even really support our troops - saying it is not doing it. Do we pay them enough- no, do we offer support to their families - no, do we acknowledge their service and sacrifice publicly- no. what happened to the Gold Star Mothers, to the GI discounts. Heck, many reservists are coming home to no jobs (what the hell is wrong with people??)

Now many people are unwilling to take responsibility and hide behind Bush bashing politics to do shirk it all– they want nothing to affect them (as if this is a realistic possibility). Smash Bush and everyone will leave us alone. This all started before Bush and will continue after. He may not be the man to get this job done (for the record - I think bottom quarter), but the Congress is not really helping and neither is our population as a whole. We can stop this from being a political issue, but we don't.

One last comment; although I agree with much of what you said, I would hope that no one misinterprets that to mean that dissent should be stifled. Blindly following a path is, as you apparently well know, the path to many things evil. Civil discourse should be encouraged.

I for one, appreciate the comments you have made – thanks.

How can we expect accountability from people who allow their elected officials to systematically disarm the citizens and bit by bit remove their rights to free speech, and freedom of religion.

The more I study history the less optimistic I am about the future of this country. Look at the great civilizations and the quality of their leadership just before they crumbled. You will see that we don't look much different. We can only hope and for some of us pray that some truly great leaders will rise out of the muck that pretends to lead our country today. I mean that as a non partisan statement because I don't see anyone impressive on either side of the fence or in the middle either.

Thank you OoBE, in the past, political disagreement always played second fiddle to the unity that was the essence of the United States. You make a very good point, your current President was elected by the people twice! The world loves to dump on the U.S. and call them Imperialist bullies, but the first thought in everyones minds when a North Korea tests its missiles is "what is the U.S. going to do about it?

As a Canadian, I can tell you that socialism is a terrible trap and very difficult to get out of. Socialized medicine or as we wrongly call it "free health care" is anything but free and one prays never to need it as the wait for diagnostics and treatment can be very long (unless you are of the elite). Where will Canadians go for timely, professional health care if the U.S. goes with socialized medicine?

I agree with your full comment completely.

Afghanistan opened up teeming and malignant fascist religious movement where Islamist revolutionaries were plotting our demise. At the 9/11 hearings Security Advisor Rice answered the question why America had given the Islamist movement (Jihad) so little attention. Her answer "We did not know we were at war until 9/11. Apparently, some still don't. But they are in denial.

The left believes that the shouting is over and they have shouted loudest, although they have no answers. They cannot even identify the "lie" they keep saying Bush committed. They think we are all fools. The President has been, and continues to be slandered by the rabid liberal left crowd for the purpose of regaining power by destroying the Republican Party.

The left has always done this. Since the Great Depression, they have used every national catastrophe to seize control. Once they do, their policies begin to ruin the country and fortunately the pendulum swings back. But with each swing the divisiveness gets shriller and more bizarre – like now. Because they cannot answer the serious questions about the danger we face from the inability to retaliate against stateless barbarians, they invent conspiracy theories.

This shameful process has been the divisive force that has delayed our success in the war and incontrovertibly led to the death of fighters by giving comfort and boosting enemy morale.

You might think Bush is poor now, but he will go down in history as one of the greatest statesman by recognizing the danger and engaging the fight regardless of the polls. We need a man like this in such a crucial time in history – a man of principle. I am not a Republican (Although I think I may soon become one). But in my opinion the president has had to fight the war with political correctness, and endure back biting, second guessing and Monday morning ¼ backing.

But he fights the good fight – democracy is the only answer – we fear no democracies with or without nuclear weapons. Give the woman the vote and there is peace. We fight for the purple thumbs. They are weak now, but they are the majority. And with our help they will be strong enough to subdue the few fascist thugs that are threatened by woman and who are afraid of the vote. We will only lose if we want to.

Television, like the internet is a wonderful propaganda tool, particularly in this age of un-reason where a claimed consensus changes a theory into a law.

Anyone can present their obviously biased view of events and then pass off some observed phenomena as "proof" that the under educated sheep will swallow without question.

How about this....

Watch what happens to structural steel when subjected to prolonged high temperatures (planes fully loaded with jet fuel).

Watch what happens to structural steel that has seen relatively static loads for decades suddenly experience loads many times higher than design spec (multiple floors above impact area, fall onto floor below impact area) F=MA anyone?

Watch what happens to windows on lower floors as upper floors collapse downward dominoe style, air pressure rises almost instantly and blows them out, floor after floor.

Nah, that will never get Bush impeached, lets go back to precisely shaped, spaced and timed charges, hire hundreds of zeallots to board four airplanes and fly them into some buildings as cover (those were no innocent civillians) all so we cane blame those fun loving Muslim extremists and take their oil.

And to think... I logged on to ask a question about deviations from Dulong and Petit's law at low temperatures. Perhaps I should find an engineering/science forum.

I love you Guys (and Gals!).

There were some excellent, well thought out comments and humour while I was away on holiday, keep it up!

Some technical doubts still remain regarding the collapse of the WTC towers. I looked into this page out of curiosity after noticing the title in a CR4 blog list. I am rather disappointed that most of the responses are of a highly emotional nature, and there seems to be little serious effort towards discussing the engineering aspects.

I hope raising doubts is not equated with supporting a conspiracy theory. I happen to be an engineer with a natural curiosity about technical and scientific matters in general, or why and how things happen, but I have no expertise at all in building structures or explosions. Perhaps I should state right away that I am neither a US citizen, nor a Muslim. Indeed my country (India) has friendly relations with the US, and I should also say that I find the conspiracy theory quite incredible. Since I don't watch TV at all I don't have any mental picture of the event(s) or the time scale of the collapse process. My doubts are as essentially as described below.

When a large object like a plane crashed into the building, I imagine that the structural columns over a significantly wide section on the entry side would have been completely destroyed almost instantly. Since the plane has presumably entered the building and its remains did not (?) emerge on the other side, it must have come to a stop against heavy columns on the inside. Even before the fires could weaken the structure over a period of minutes (or hours?) there must have been considerable overload on the remaining structure on the entry side. That together with the force of impact should have had a tendency to make the building 'fold' (jack-knife) or at least tilt towards that side. And once such a tilting commences, I cannot think of any force which will try to right it again, so the stresses on the already weak side will only keep increasing and cause the upper part of the building to 'topple' rather than settle. I am not able to understand how all the columns failed successively in a near simultaneous fashion at each level, especially where the plane entered, and the whole structure settled into its own footprint. The individual floors do not seem to have buckled or twisted during the settling process. It is difficult to imagine that the floor slabs would have been made more rigid or massive than required to support the expected loads with adequate safety against overloads. There is probably some difference of opinion regarding whether the impulse from a plane hit is 'small' or 'large' in relation to the design strength and factors of safety for the structure.

I hope that someone in this thread who has access to competent opinion will be able to provide a convincing explanation, if not in layman's language, at least in a manner intelligible to engineers and scientists, as I feel it is a matter of technical interest. If there is some design procedure which deliberately causes a building to fail only in a particular fashion, it needs to be more widely known. A couple of structural engineers I spoke to were unable to throw any light on this matter, but then nobody here has experience of structures like the WTC towers. If there is any clear account of the third tower which collapsed, some references or basic information would be welcome. I did look at the references given in posts 19 and 22 to the articles in NAE and Popular Mechanics, but did not find the answers I seek.

A few extracts, admittedly selective, from the first article by Leslie E. Robertson who was the lead structural engineer for construction of the WTC towers, are given below as they seem to be relevant. At least they tend to reinforce my doubts. The author has obviously written from the heart.

"... The events of September 11, however, are not well understood by me . . . and perhaps cannot really be understood by anyone. So I will simply state matters of fact.... "

"... In time, the unimaginable happened . . . wounded by the impact of the aircraft and bleeding from the fires, both of the towers of the World Trade Center collapsed.... "

"... The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707.... "

"... The buildings survived the impact of the Boeing 767 aircraft, an impact very much greater than had been contemplated in our design (a slow-flying Boeing 707 lost in the fog and seeking a landing field).... "

"... These charts demonstrate conclusively that we should not and cannot design buildings and structures to resist the impact of these aircraft. Instead, we must concentrate our efforts on keeping aircraft away from our tall buildings, sports stadiums, symbolic buildings, atomic plants, and other potential targets.... "

"... We did not design the superstructures of Building 3 (Marriott Hotel) or of Building 7. Towers 1 and 2, which were totally destroyed, left behind utter chaos surrounded by towers of naked structural steel.... ... Building 7, after burning for nearly 10 hours, collapsed down to a structural transfer level designed by us.... "

On the other hand, the long article in Popular Mechanics was apparently commissioned much later with the specific purpose of discrediting the conspiracy theories, and to that extent one could reasonably suspect that the authors may have selectively suppressed information which did not fit the official version of events. This does not mean that the conspiracy theory is credible, but only that the investigation could have been motivated towards a predetermined outcome. In any case the article does not adequately explain the mechanics of the failure sequence to my satisfaction. Perhaps the magazine could hardly have come up with an inconclusive report and maintained their credibility or public image. There are many phenomena for which there are no obvious explanations, but admitting one's ignorance openly can sometimes be a difficult decision, for instance in the case of a doctor confronted with strange symptoms, not wishing to needlessly distress a patient.

As far as I know, which is obviously very little with regard to structural failures, no building is known to have failed by pancaking following damage by impact or fire or earthquake. I'm sure others on CR4 will be able to provide information on this in an impartial way purely as a matter of technical interest, without being accused of conspiracy.

I also hope that any response to this will focus mainly on the technical explanation of how the WTC towers failed in the way they did, in terms of the basic principles of engineering structures. Statements to the effect that experts have studied the problem and passed their verdict can still leave room for doubt. At least in the engineering profession one learns to be wary of expert opinions. In any puzzling situation one must be able to resolve a variety of conflicting opinions and often incomplete information, some of which may be irrelevant. If at all any conclusion can be reached with a reasonable measure of confidence, it still may not be THE truth (an elusive concept whose very existence outside the confines of the human mind is a matter for philosophical debate). In real life we must perforce remain content with whatever tentative answers we can arrive at, acknowledging our limited capabilities.

I'm aware that I too am open to the charge of digressing from the topic on hand, and I do so as a reaction to most of the other entries, without disputing any of the opinions expressed. I will be satisfied if I can form a reasonably informed technical opinion of my own about the mechanics of the building collapse.

Like some of the others who have contributed to this discussion, I too think that citizens should not blindly believe their governments. That old quotation about patriotism being the last refuge of a scoundrel rings true especially in a world where media manipulation and image building are activities involving high stakes. Especially in so-called democracies we may not know who is pulling the strings, and a supposedly free press may be controlled by forces which have their own sinister agenda. But all that is again completely off-topic.

Let me also repeat that the conspiracy theory about planned demolition is pretty far-fetched. I could just as well come up with a wild theory that the planes involved were actually holographic images! What with the advances in computer animation techniques, it may soon be possible to create virtual scenes or false alibis which are realistic enough to fool the camera. As it is, in professional magic shows we cannot believe our eyes! So let us stick to the known technical facts and information about the mechanics and constructional details of the twin towers, and hope that the sources of our information are reliable.

When 3000 innocent people die a horrible death, emotions do come in and as a matter of fact should and must come in. No one would ever know the truth, if there is one, and every one would be speculating. People who saw this including me would be talking about it till the day they all die and leave the stories for thier children and then their children. I saw them going up from 37th floor up and go to finish and saw it go down too and tear drops fell my cheeks as I saw them go down and what I saw go up for so many years. You will not feel any thing. It was a building for you guys while it was Taj Mahal for us.

Let the sleeping giant sleep and it will not take you any where as we found out after so many weeks of discussions. Every one has his own theory. So let them feel good about it. You want a technical response and you shall not get one as you know that no one is an expert. If there was one, the answer could have come right after the incident and now no one wants to dig up the bones.

And you have a good day. Please do not bother responding to this.

Nadeem Butt

Houston, Texas

08152007

Everyone has a right to believe what he believes in.

I believe in the popular mechanics explanation, why? because its the only explanation that fits in a practical sense all the various features of the collapse and me being a practical Guy, likes it to fit so nicely, nothing left over to guess at.

Also, it appears that you have NOT read the explanation from the architect of exactly HOW the building was constructed, or you might be more inclined to believe PM as against conspiracy theories.

You said "I imagine that the structural columns over a significantly wide section on the entry side", - they were not there where you thought they were......!!!

It was not a normal standard type of construction in anyway shape or form....which is why it collapsed in the way it did!

Have a great day....

Look up mass firings at Popular Mechanics prior to "debunking" publication.

Ummm .... what???

http://www.rense.com/general63/brutalpurgeofPMstaff.htm

In the months leading up to the Chertoff article in PM, a brutal take-over occurred at the magazine. In September 2004, Joe Oldham, the magazines former editor-in-chief was replaced by James B. Meigs, who came to PM with a deputy, Jerry Beilinson, from National Geographic Adventure. In October, a new creative director replaced PMs 21-year veteran who was given ninety minutes to clear out of his office. A former senior editor at PM, who is forbidden from openly discussing the coup at PM, told AFP that the former creative director was abruptly told to leave and given severance pay of two weeks wages for every year spent at PM. Three or four people have been similarly dismissed every month since, he said. He said he was astounded that the coup at PM had not been reported in the mainstream media.

This has been a fascinating social experiment:

As Engineers and people with a scientific bent on life and the definition of objective thinking, this principal should apply to our examination of such a problem and the probable outcome of the new restrictions on personal expression and behavior implemented by technology.

As you can all see this extension of a "Now to Future" thread cannot happen without everyo0ne getting their feelings hurt and the grand mix of patriotic and religious beliefs clouding the very air of the discussion.

I can now conclude my diatribe and a fair warning to this most esteemed group with my last observation.

This emergency situation created and managed in all of it's show of "Them against US" will have and is evolving into a future where we the public being fleeced regularly by a fearsome leadership out of resources, are going to finely managed by those same leaders in ways that we are inventing for them.

Our present "Belief" that we are free and can expect to remain free is going to be severely tested in this new and frightfully near future.

I do so wonder about people looking at the fruits of their labors and how their environment is changing around them without ever examining the big picture.

As I travel around this great and grand country I see RFID sensors just about everywhere. Every freeway has them evenly spaced every 10 to 30 miles apart. Why is that necessary? They say to track shipments of valuable cargo. In reality that new tracking mechanism can track anything. So where does the word "Freedom" interact with our new chains and still retain it's true meaning?

I guess that Feelings have always got the better of most people, myself included. When used in an argument instead of a hard close examination of all of the observable and recorded facts, why you can state anything is true.

I used to be that way my self, since then I have found that feelings, and un-explained, and un-warranted expressions can lead one to ruin and dangerous ground.

In 10 to 20 years from now as your children and grandchildren are led away in handcuffs to be re-programmed as good citizens you might remember this little discussion on mis-applied technology and the consequences of blind belief that "All is Well" because I just don't want to think of it in that way.

What absolutely astounds me is that the very people who are placing this structure and enabling it to happen do not think they will be ruled by it.

Go Figure, just what is the value thinking if it's not used?

Since honest and open thinking is frowned upon by so many stalwart members here I will take a vacation from this and probably keep my musings to my self from now on. Be especially careful to not think bad things can happen, and all is as advertised.

Yall have a nice future if you can : - )

..."grandchildren are led away in handcuffs to be re-programmed..."

Oh my gosh. I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

Obviously, not a word of all the straightforward scientific logic that was presented in this extremly long thread, has made one shred of difference. Simply amazing.

Okay .. I bow out of all of this.

Don't. Just simply read and go to next one.

You do not have to get involved in every argument that comes along the way. LOL.

Regards;

Nadeem

Just read and chuckle as I do.

Regards;

Nadeem

Belly shaking chuckles

Knee shaking chuckles.....isn't it amazing what some people really believe.....

I suppose it sells newspapers......! National thingummy?

You said "I see RFID sensors just about everywhere."

I was under the impression that RFID sensors/chips had a range of a couple of meters at best!

Is this a new type that I have not heard about? Please let me know so that my knees can shake with yours about this system, photos?

I read the first few sentences. Im not sure if conspiracy theorists can ever be experts at what they do, since what they do is coming up with fiction. There will always be another conspiracy theorist with an even grander delusion than yours. Its like some kind of crazy contest to see who's the craziest.

another example to test you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc7mkHtuLOs&mode=related&search=

I know there are some htat will belive it