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Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/08/2015 11:06 PM

"The study linked lower blood cholesterol levels to lower rates of heart disease and cancer. As blood cholesterol levels decreased from 170 mg/dl to 90 mg/dl, the authors write that cancers of the liver, rectum, colon, lung, breast, childhood and adult leukemia, brain, stomach and esophagus (throat) decreased. Rates for some cancers varied by a factor of 100 from those counties with the highest rates to the counties with the lowest rates.[15]

The authors write that "as blood cholesterol levels in rural China rose in certain counties the incidence of 'Western' diseases also increased. What made this so surprising was that Chinese levels were far lower than we had expected. The average level of blood cholesterol was only 127 mg/dl, which is almost 100 points less than the American average (215 mg/dl). ...Some counties had average levels as low as 94 mg/dl. ...For two groups of about twenty-five women in the inner part of China, average blood cholesterol was at the amazingly low level of 80 mg/dl."[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

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#1

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/09/2015 12:03 AM

Cool Hand Luke ate 50 eggs in one go. That's admittedly a bit much, unless it builds up immunity.

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#2

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/09/2015 1:05 AM

my last two bloodtests have this diagnostic number:

total cholesterol level/HDL. less than 2.5 is preferred.

mine showed even lower than that, in the lowest 5% of risk.

and I eat eggs daily, and so did my dad who lived to be 88.

so total cholesterol is not necessarily the best diagnostic number

for cardiovascular risks.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/09/2015 2:00 PM

Some high cholesterol its in the genes, I myself is naturally high and im on statins, reduction is minimal and it's high to begin with..... But when I excercise heavily, it goes down considerable.... But the heavy excercising is a daily 1 hour minimum workout that combines cardiao and weights.... Cardio I burn about 500 calories, weights I don't know.

It more exercise than I care to do, and I just can't do it consistent.

And as far as statins, you have a choice, high cholesterol or liver damage. Now, I hear reports of high cholesterol is not as bad as first though..... I'll wait for that report to develop.

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#7
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/10/2015 1:51 PM

I tried 4 or 5 different statins, and one other cholesterol-lowering medicine. They all gave me muscle aches, so I just quit (with my doctor's reluctant consent). I too am convinced that exercise is really important, but I want to accomplish something with my exercise, like cutting the lawns and firewood.

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#8
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/10/2015 4:08 PM

i agree, I help my brother on the farm quite a bit. Also, I played sports till I was 45.... Played basketball against the 18-20 year olds at the 'Y'. They may have been strong and could endure more than me, but I had 45 years of cunningness that even the score.

Off topic a little, but I had friends in Colorado Springs, I'd visit them for about a week,and with the air was thin when I returned to Green Bay, Wi. I'd go to the 'Y', and play ball with these little pissants, and run circles around them... (For about a week).

Needless to say, they were impressed, they could not believe the shape I was in..... I'd tell them, this is nothing, and told them if you want to see good basketball players, do want I do, and play against the residents at the assistant living home on every Tuesday, then you'll really get schooled.

Their jaws dropped...

Unfortunately, I have to do more low impact exercise now and so I go to the gym more.

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#16
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 1:46 PM

I have noticed that when taking a cholesterol lowering medicine (more side effects than benefits, I suspect), if I take my minerals with that in the morning, I will most definitely have deep muscle cramps/muscle aches. If I take the mineral tab(s) at night, then I have way less problems with cramps. Some of these medicines are inconsistent with calcium and magnesium found in these supplements. I have found, however, that when I take both calcium and magnesium tablet, and a potassium tablet I will not cramp at night, even if legs get cold.

I too like to link accomplishing some purpose with my exercise. So I built an exercise bike attached to an alternator and an auto battery, and I have an inverter to use with it - run TV or something?

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#26
In reply to #4

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 8:50 PM

Check out the somewhat recent John Hopkins and Mayo Clinic reports on high cholesterol and it's real cause(s) and affect(s).

The new information is directly pointing at too much starches and sugars in our diet as the real culprit and not bacon, eggs, oils, fats, or meats.

Many doctors are now saying the food pyramid is upside down and we are consuming way too much grains, sugar, and starchy vegetables that are almost immediately turned into sugar in the body after being consumed.

My brother-in-law and sister-in-law are and have always been strict vegetarians yet their cholesterol is in the 350 plus range even with both on maximum statin dosages.

He has already had several heart attacks with one fatal but was brought back to life in the ER and he has had two open heart surgeries.

They do not and never have eaten any meat.

I am very sure that each person is affected by different foods and that the "fit-all" diets simply do not work well for everyone.

I find it very interesting that surgeons operating on young military personnel in the field have always reported seeing significant quantities of a yellow fat like substance thought to be cholesterol inside the arteries and veins as far back as 1950 in Korea. You would think that if strenuous exercise and diet is the answer, none of our young soldiers would be experiencing high cholesterol. Yes?

There is a herb called "Red Rice Yeast" that lowers cholesterol very quickly and many of my friends have been able to stop taking their heart medications after being on a regular dosage of this herb within a month of inception.

I use it at minimum dosage and my total cholesterol has dropped from 230 down to 150-170 without my having to change my diet. (I love burgers and steaks and vegetables!)

Also; The ratio of LDL to HDL is way more critical than total cholesterol. HDL needs to much higher than LDL in order for a human to be healthy. HDL is increased by exercise with walking being as good as any other exercise for increasing HDL and lowering LDL. Stress can and will increase cholesterol. Having a beer or glass of wine helps better the ratio and lower LDL.

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/09/2015 2:09 PM

You bring up a good point on the units of measurement:

http://www.employees.org/~alokem/cholesterol.html

Just in case someone gets confused.

Total cholestrerol also includes good and bad cholesterol or HDL and LDL Lipids. Think of the "H"DL as "healthy" cholesterol. And we do need it. So a lot of the type of cholesterol depends on what you eat. Eat lots of saturated fatty foods low in Omega 3 or 6 and you can have very high bad or LDL cholesterol levels. In other words get most of your cholesterol from meat is not a good idea as it is the biggest source of LDL.

Eating foods like nuts and grains and fruits can be good for the body as it helps reduce LDL and still provide us with fatty acids we need.

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#3

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/09/2015 3:10 AM

Hmmmm, right on time.

After hearing the news about the increase in new onset type 2 diabetes for people taking popular cholesterol lowering drugs, I was wondering how soon the retelling of all the bad things that high cholesterol can cause along with announcements of years old studies as if these were new studies that had just come to light.

Cui bono?

The pharmaceutical companies have a lot to lose if people take less statins. This timely, somewhat fear based attempt to elevate this concern in the public mindset very likely is part of a concerted effort by one or more pharmaceutical companies to minimize the coming hit to sales.

By the way, I'm not arguing for or against statins. I also didn't bring this up in an effort to vilify big pharma. It is just interesting.

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#18
In reply to #3

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 1:57 PM

so taking popular cholesterol lowering drugs causes more diabetes II, does it also make diabetes II worse? I think it does.

I think we are mostly just poisoning ourselves (or letting the Big Pharma companies do it to us, as though we were their private "herd").

I don't know if this has ocurred to many in this group, but do you suppose that STRESS is the root cause of all these problems, and that living in these unhealthy things they call cities is really behind all of the stress? When is the last time you were not stressed, even though tomorrow was a work day? When is the last time you got full, complete, restful night's sleep during the work week?

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 2:10 PM

statins is also hard on the liver.

and there is truth about big pharma about protected its markets from natural remedies.

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#20
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 2:29 PM

It is the cart - horse analogy once again, which one causes the other? Can they actually discern this (statistically speaking)? I agree statins are hard on the liver, as now they also prescribe another pill to counter the effect caused by the first one, but does it still help the HDL/LDL ratio?

I recently learned that liver may hold more of a role in Diabetes II than the pancreas. Usually in type II, there is still plenty, maybe even an excess of insulin in the blood stream. What is lacking is the liver substances that facilitate glucose uptake and distribution to the muscles as glycogen. Hence, the tiredness. Liver cleansing combinations have been suggested, and I got some good from that, but I did it in a limited way. Also, there are other combinations wherein niacin, tryptophan, tumeric, high doses of B vitamins, carnitine, and other items is also used to counter the "clogging" of the liver transport mechanisms by free fatty acids. Apparently, FFA's are the evil precursor of all circulatory issues, diabetes II, high cholesterol, etc.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 2:30 PM

I like to look at it as this analogy, "Is the cure worse than the ailment?"

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#33
In reply to #19

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 11:41 AM

What exactly are 'natural remedies'?

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#34
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 12:36 PM

In the context as I presented it, it would be vitamins, minerals derived from herbs and the like. And in the context of my post, big pharmaceuticals lobbied to have laws passed that prohibits advertising supplements derived naturally for ailments. Of course taking vitamins in pill form is not really natural but it is more basic.

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#35
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 2:11 PM

AFAIK,They didn't pass laws prohibiting advertising supplements 'derived naturally' (sorry, I still have no idea what that means). If you say something has health benefits, you have to document such claims with the appropriate research.

.

So this natural thing....you want your aspirin still in the bark when you take it?

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 2:22 PM

So this natural thing....you want your aspirin still in the bark when you take it?

Not all.... more so on vitamin supplements

The third and fourth paragraph pretty much sums it up, unfortunately this is not an unbiased article especially when the they make comparison of big pharma and Nazi Germany.

If this isn't sufficient to understand, when I have more time, I'll post a more unbias detailed link.

here's a better report.

And what does it come down to? politics.

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#40
In reply to #36

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 3:26 PM

OK there goes the thread...the N word (Nazi) and the P word (politics) mentioned in the same post. The only thing missing is Feminazi, Sensitivity Training, and Politically Correct Speech Therapy (learning how to speak a new way, so that one never says anything other than "the sky is blue". Of course, there is always at least one crumudgeon offended by blue skies.

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#41
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 3:28 PM

I putting you "off topic"

carry on

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#42
In reply to #36

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 6:55 PM

".It imposes on the supplement industry proof that its products are safe with mandated independent scientific research. ....."

.

It seems like this would be a concern if the supplements had not been scientifically evaluated as safe and effective, or if something like consistency/quality control was insufficient to have the supplements be reliably safe and effective.

If the product isn't rigorously tested, how could they know? Wouldn't independent analysis be the default for something like that?

".....Pomegranates, walnuts, cherries cannot be sold or advertised with the true claims that they have certain medicinal effects on human health....."

.

If these claims of benefits are indeed true, then there should be no problem finding peer reviewed scientific papers that back this up.

.

There are all sorts of rules for various industries about what can and can't be said concerning products or services to potential customers. Finance is one good example.....you can't just make claims without justification.willy nilly..

Drugs with bark attached is another.....if you are going to make claims about the health benefits of a drug whether it has bark attached or not, documentation of the advertised benefits is completely reasonable.

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#45
In reply to #42

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 7:22 PM

If your read the second link of the post you responded to, the politicians set the bar higher then the drugs big pharm comes out with.

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#47
In reply to #45

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/13/2015 1:24 AM

I read the second link along with the first. While the second link is more reasonable than the first, it falls short both in the comparisons it makes and in the claim of a higher bar being set.

.

The main thrust of the article is that adverse event reports for supplements specifically have been singled out for additional review.

Given that supplements are not subject to premarketing studies with the FDA, and that there is often a lack of information about what is actually in various lots of supplement pills, subjecting any reports of trouble of supplements on the market to a closer look isn't setting a higher bar, it is just trying to compensate for a much lower bar the supplement industry is held to. It isn't being mean, it is being prudent.

.

Another complaint in the article is that a particular side effect may not be considered adverse for a drug if the side effect was noted in studies and so appears on the list of side effects for that drug. Once again, this is just being prudent. If you know that some people get dizzy taking dramamine, but in the studies this was not something that lead to problems, then so long as the patient was forewarned, and nothing more serious happens, no reason to report a known side effect.

On the other hand if a supplement that has no warning about dizziness, for which no FDA clinical trial have been performed that might indicate whether or not it was indication of a serious problem, and for which the ingredients are not always certain....it makes sense to report.

That said, non-serious adverse events don't seem to have a reporting requirement for supplements. Only serious events, i.e. death, near death, hospitalization, disabling results, etc, reported to the manufacturer or retailer must be reported to the FDA. In fact poison control centers regularly receive far more reports of adverse effects due to supplements than does the FDA.

.

As far as prescription drugs being able to get away with drug that cause headache, dizziness, low blood sugar, etc. When efficacy can be demonstrated for treating something like Parkinsons, and the risks are known, it just becomes a choice of pros and cons, risk vs reward.

With unknown risks and with benefits suggested by nonscientific anecdotal evidence, it isn't so much a choice as a gamble.

.

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#50
In reply to #47

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/13/2015 7:32 AM

So, slogans are out "Milk, does your body good."

I'll have to write the Milk Marketing Board on their studies to support that claim.

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#46
In reply to #42

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 8:50 PM

"documentation of the advertised benefits is completely reasonable."

Indeed it is completely reasonable. Unfortunately, it is not commonplace. I couldn't find the link at the moment, But I think it was about a month ago that Consumer's Reports or another similar organization tested a bunch of herb supplements, and found that only 7% of the supplements contained significant amounts of the advertised herb. As I recall, the article said that over half of them had no trace of the DNA of the advertized herb.

Now this was about the contents, not the benefits, but the same concern applies. If I can find it, I'll come back...

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#49
In reply to #46

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/13/2015 7:29 AM

the also advertise the side effects.... though I never came across explosive diarrhea,.... yet.

As far as content in the product, that is fraud.

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#51
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/13/2015 8:39 AM

The part I hate is when walking through the plant here about 1/4 mile to 1/2 mile (it seems) from the nearest toilet, and suddenly you get that feeling.....talking about Pepto Bismol moments...

Next question: can the fleas that typically want to inhabit dogs spread the Bubonic Plague, or is it only rats (and certain other rodents like BHO) that carry that one?

IF anyone believes health care has improved in the last 7-8 years, please raise your hand(s), and indicate if you need to go #1, #2, or both. I suspect you are full of #2.

We stand on the shoulders of medical giants, too bad all the politcians running the show are sh** house rats.

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#52
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/13/2015 9:00 AM

OK, the direction of bodily functions of this thread ends here.......

back to the topic, I think healthcare improved.... now, the quality of life, I would have questions.

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#38
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 3:22 PM

"minerals derived from herbs and the like" - I bet some of these mineral plants look like concrete? Just kiddin'.

I don't care where minerals come from as long as my body has a shot in hell at digesting and assimilating them, and no majorly toxic elements included.

(I have to add that disclaimer).

BTW - Big Pharma does not apparently want to provide the best vaccines (or really any vaccines at all), since it is not a good profit center for them.

Of course, in a perfect world, no one would have the measles either, but we all had it when I was a kiddo. Chicken pox too.

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 3:25 PM

On side of big pharma,.... it does spend a lot in development of new drugs,...... and as I said in an earlier post. #21

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#37
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 3:17 PM

Natural remedies are the ones put forth by companies you know nothing about, but offer to actually either cure or majorly reduce the symptoms/effects of your disease.

Some of their products are based on "herbal" medicine, as at least if these are toxic, they are naturally toxic.

You can bet they do not rely upon double-blind placebo studies, etc.

It appears some of the combinations of ingredients may actually work to help reduce insulin sensitivity, at least I have some anecdotal information in that regard, although I am more or less not following the exact "protocols", and am sort of making up my own protocol on the fly.

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#22
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 2:35 PM

While living in cities does almost certainly increase the stress level, that isn't the only source. I'm fortunate (read: I chose) to live in the foothills where it's generally quieter and cleaner, and go to the city where I officially work for a week at a time, then come home, where I continue work, but when I feel like it. Right now, I'm about to go take a break pulling weeds!

I must add that stress is highly dependent on attitude!

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#29
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Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 9:38 AM

Yep! I am not sure there is any better stress relief than tending one's garden.

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#28
In reply to #18

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 10:41 PM

".... so taking popular cholesterol lowering drugs causes more diabetes II, does it also make diabetes II worse? I think it does...."

.

The recent study suggests your intuition is probably correct, at least for white males. A 6 year study of 9000 white males in Finland, none of whom were initially diabetic, and about 1/4 of whom were taking statins, found about a 50% higher risk of developing new type 2 diabetes in those taking statins, even after correcting for other factors.

There appears to be both an increased insulin resistance and a decreased ability to produce insulin correlated with statin use.

http://www.m.webmd.com/diabetes/news/20150304/statins-linked-to-raised-risk-of-type-2-diabetes

I

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 10:37 AM

No wonder the "doctor" (actually a nurse practicioner, not even a physician's assistant) who put me on Crestor (signed off on by the doctor, no doubt) did so, even after they had been treating me for Daibetes II for years, and even though my neck arterial scan was very clear, my vital signs similar to a mid 30's athlete, etc.

They want (are hungry for) my return business as a patient. What better way, if they can keep prescribing more and more poison (all medicines are poisons of one type or another, otherwise there would not be so many complications and side-effects).

It is not their fault I ate and drank my way to diabetes, but I do fault the system for being all too often in bed with Big Pharmaceutical companies controlled by a board that is single-minded about only one thing - the profit margin and the almightly dollar.

Not only that, we have the FDA also in bed with Big Pharma, often times a high ranking BP executive will move over to a high post in the FDA just long enough to get the next round of "poisons" cleared through the approval process, then they move back to the job on the board of the drug cartel company.

All of this is my stark-raving lunatic rant, not backed up by research, except for various anecdotal things I have read, heard somewhere, or conjured up from the ether. Please do not take any of these comments personally as they are the opinions of the poster, and not that of your local CR4 station.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 10:45 AM

A few years ago so 7-10...... I don't recall if this was a study, read or I had heard it on the radio, that as your in the waiting room. The Doctor arrives, asks some questions, takes your blood pressure if the nurse didn't already do... and some basic tests, the doctor will exit saying he'll arrange some tests or something of that nature.

When he returns, he say what he suspects.... and go in more elaborate details.

The reason that he left the room.... is because he's googling the systems and the answers you gave his questions.

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#32
In reply to #30

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/12/2015 11:35 AM

If you were put on statins earlier than a couple months ago, then the nurse practitioner and doctor did not have access to this study. They should now be aware, and it would seek like contacting people they have prescribed statins and reviewing their cases individually would be a step in the right direction.

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#6

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/10/2015 10:32 AM

Eat what you want, live well and enjoy your food....Death comes to all no matter what you eat or how much you exercise or what drugs you take, nobody escapes the end regardless of what your doctors would have you believe....Who wants to prolong a life with no joy? Enjoy your life and seek joy through whatever works for you....Live life well and end it proudly with no regrets....$.02 The healthcare system in this country is one of the leading causes of death, and is responsible for more bankruptcies than anything else....Do you really trust them?

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#10
In reply to #6

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 12:49 AM

Amen to everything you said in that post! EA! (Excellent Answer).

When I was a kid, every bit of bacon grease was saved for flavoring other things. On that diet, and with no cholesterol medicine, dad just barely missed reaching 90, and mom lived to be just over 100.

I'm convinced that all the fat and sugar substitutes are worse than the real thing.

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#14
In reply to #10

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 7:58 AM

I remember as a kid 6-7, my dad made what was called a 'bacon grease sandwich'. Yes, Bread that soak up hot bacon grease in a hot cast iron skillet. I loved it.

When mom found out that dad gave me one, she scolded him.

Dad just turned 90 last February.

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#12
In reply to #6

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 7:54 AM

My grandfather lived to be 85. He smoked 2 packs of non filtered Camels a day, drank whiskey and butchered all the family's own food like pigs and beef. Ate cracklings (fried pig skin with the fat) and generally compared to today , led a bad lifestyle. Worked hard his whole live and raised a large family. Died( mid stroke in her bed) at his 35 year old girlfriends house. Never went to a doctor unless a body part was missing. He is my hero.

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#24
In reply to #12

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 2:50 PM

Reminds me of some of my Texas relatives, I can only wish to live as long as they did.

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#25
In reply to #12

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 6:42 PM

What a marvelous way to die (for him)! I do hope the young lady didn't feel guilty...

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#27
In reply to #6

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Deseases

05/11/2015 9:18 PM

There is part of your comment that I like a lot. It is the part about taking responsibility for and control of one's own life. It reminds me a lot of this:

.

".... Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing...." - Helen Keller.

.

There is another part of your comment that is at odds with the part that is so good. It chooses a path of blame and names a convenient scapegoat.

"....nobody escapes the end regardless of what your doctors would have you believe...."

If your doctor is suggesting you will ultimately escape death, you should find a different doctor. Eternal life is not a common claim among competent physicians. I would go so far as to say it is nonexistent among competent physicians.

"....The healthcare system in this country is one of the leading causes of death, and is responsible for more bankruptcies than anything else...."

I would give you credit for making a distinction between the healthcare system and healthcare workers, if it were not for the malicious portrayal of physicians in the Web page you linked (right down to the malevolent looking picture of people behind surgical masks), and the framing of your last question as to 'them' (instead of something like 'it').

An expectation that zero deaths should occur in the healthcare system, suggests a belief in that idea you attributed to doctors...that the end might be something possible of being ultimately escaped.

It is akin to someone noting the frequency with which dog catchers are recipients of dog bites and then suggesting dog catchers are causing an increase in dog bites.

One of the big reasons a lot of people die in the hospital is that most of the people admitted have a problem or problems that threaten life in the short term if untreated.

'These people were about to die, so we brought them here, yet 1/4 of them did not improve and died before leaving this place. This place is evil'....is that about right?

This is not to suggests that all doctors are decent people who take their oath to do no harm seriously. There are the occasional bad apples. But your indictment appears to be of doctors and other health care workers as a whole.

.

The suggestion that doctors cause bankruptcy is similarly at odds with the part of your comment that I really like. Except for a very few cases, like emergency procedures where the patient is admitted without their conscious knowledge or consent, medial procedures are done with the consent of the patient and or their legal guardian. The fact that the procedure will cost money is not hidden, it is clearly disclosed up front. The choice to go forward with the procedure and to therefore be responsible for payment is that of the patient and or legal guardian. There is no means testing, and I don't think there should be. The choice I to incur the debt is clearly in the hands of the patient.

.

It is tragic that specific planning for end of life is not more common. It is sad that sometimes a life savings that could have been put to far better use is burned up for 3 more months of unenviable existence. It is regrettable that too few realize the more compassionate option is often not to put their loved one through every imaginable treatment.

.

"....Do you really trust them...."

All of them? Of course not. Name the profession for which you have trust for every member. Priests? Police? Satellite TV reps? Trial attorneys?

There are good and bad in each. No really, there has to be a good trial attorney. There are just too many not to have at least one exception.

Speaking of trial attorneys. If you want to have a more legitimate scapegoat, their resistance to tort reform and the sheep volume of frivolous lawsuits makes your health care far more expensive than it should be.

It is exactly to their benefit to vilify healthcare workers, painting them as malicious greedy troublemakers. That first link you provided seems a lot like something trial attorneys would be responsible for promoting.

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#9

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/10/2015 11:25 PM

Do your research. Is high cholesterol a cause or an effect? There is a crucial difference.

Check out CoQ10. No economic axe to grind.

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/11/2015 7:54 AM

Cholesterol is actually a natural band-Aid in the healing of an injury to ones arteries

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#11

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/11/2015 7:38 AM

I beleive what your seeing is diet changes cause by incomplete research. Eggs in the western diet got the taboo of being high in colesterol. Which they are. But farther studies show they also very high choline. A substance that helps move the colesterol thru the blood stream with out allowing it to attach to the artery walls. One study shows there is ten times the amount of choline in the egg necessary to move the colesterol in the egg.

It may be caused that their diet is high in eggs. China produces a lot of eggs. Which is a economical source of protein.

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#23
In reply to #11

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/11/2015 2:39 PM

You make a good point. When some correlation is discovered, often a wide swath of things that seem similar are thrown under the bus for good measure.

For example, naturally saturated plant fats, such as palm oil and avocado oil, are usually thrown in the 'bad' category because the seem similar to oils in which saturation has been manufactured through hydrogenation, i.e. transfats, which have good evidence of being harmful.

.

Our culture seems prone to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

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#15

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/11/2015 8:49 AM

kilowatt0 said "Do your research. Is high cholesterol a cause or an effect? There is a crucial difference."

I dont understand what your getting at, pls xplain :)

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#44
In reply to #15

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/12/2015 7:22 PM

If high cholesterol is a side effect of some other problem, then treating it with something like statin drugs is simply treating a symptom, not the cause.

I am going to resist the temptation of ranting about statin drugs. Other than to say again: Do your research.

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#55
In reply to #44

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/15/2015 7:57 PM

...and I'm no longer convinced that high cholesterol is necessarily bad for everyone. Different people have different body chemistries; what's bad for some, may not be bad for others.

I too will avoid further rant, other than to say I feel much better without the statins than with them.

Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to know who to trust when attempting to do the research.

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#17

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/11/2015 1:50 PM

So this study, how can they tell that the cholesterol is putative (causal), or that the contrapositive hypothesis is true: the other diseases present all have an effect of raising the cholesterol? Sometimes I wonder most definitely if the cart and the horse cannot be discerned by statistics. Causality and coincidence are not the same thing, but that is what counts as scientific evidence any more.

Shicken or egg? You tell me...but you may have to toin awgound (turn around in Yiddish accent).

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#43

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/12/2015 7:18 PM

CRP is considered a better marker of an immanent problem. it just isn't as simple as a single test

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#48

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/13/2015 1:54 AM
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#53

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/15/2015 3:18 PM

For years I've followed doctor, author (inventor?) Dr. Michael Eades. He is a low carb advocate. On his blog he has written a lot about cholesterol, statins and heart disease. One of the things I like about his position on such topics is that he is quite good at explaining how the body works, how medical studies are conducted and he is good at breaking down specific studies explaining why their conclusions are either on target of not.

He has mentioned the China Study a number of times. Here's a link to one of his blogs on the topic called The China Study vs. The China Study. It's a bit lengthy but worth the read IMHO. One of the things he elaborates on is how the China Study obfuscates and thus can be misleading to the casual (and even no so casual) reader.

One example is:

First, take a look at how subtly these four paragraphs (I did not include the 4 paragraph to save space…have a look at the link if you want to see them) are written, especially II. Note how he writes "the protein we consume"? I'm sure many people took these paragraphs to mean that the studies were done on humans. That's almost the implication. Reread them to see if they indicate anywhere that the author is talking about rat studies.

As Dr. Campbell progresses through this chapter, he does ultimately tell the reader he is talking about rat studies and not human studies, but he doesn't mention the word rat for another two pages after the above paragraphs. By this time it's probably implanted in the minds of many readers that he's talking about human studies.

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/15/2015 3:58 PM

All the more, not so re-assuring. I am not even sure that the rat model of cholesterol is a good analogue to humans. I thing that pig vascular systems and hearts more nearly match those of humans, but only a select few actually pig hearts.

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#57
In reply to #53

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/16/2015 10:22 AM

I'm very definitely NOT a vegetarian, and suspect that I come closer to your bias than that of Dr. Campbell.

But I find your post just as obfuscating as his study. Reading you post, without reading the contents of your link, or knowing about the China Study, gives one the impression that the China Study was done with rats. Regardless of it flaws, the China Study was indeed done with humans.

All the boldfaced text in your post is referring to a separate study done in India, and indeed on rats.

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/16/2015 11:30 AM

My point in providing the link was so I would not have to restate Dr Eades' lengthy blog. Eades is giving examples of obfuscation, not a summary of the China Study.

The fact that you mis-interpret what he says is not obfuscation on his part. The fact that you believed I was claiming the China Study was performed on rats,not humans is not due to obfuscation on my part but laziness on yours for not reading the context from which the quote was taken. As a matter of fact, in the quote I specifically parenthetically mention why I did not include the 4 paragraphs and suggested reading them. How is that obfuscation by me?

Reading my post without reading the link seems a bit silly to me. If someone posts a link and makes a statement regarding that link, I think it's the responsibility of the reader to follow the author's links or run the risk of missing what the author is attempting to convey.

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#59
In reply to #58

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/16/2015 11:57 AM

It should be obvious that I did read the article of your link. Otherwise it is not likely that I would have been aware of the India study.

I skip over links more frequently than not, as I did the first time I read your post, and I suspect that is the norm for most people. If I were to click on every link I saw, it would take me a full day to go through one Wiki article. I see links as something to be clicked for further information. The post should convey the same message whether or not the link is used.

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#60
In reply to #59

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/17/2015 6:01 PM

Sorry, I misunderstood what you wrote, but my point is still pretty much the same. You DID read the links, yet say my post is obfuscating (leading one to think the study was conducted on rats) and imply that one has to read the link to understand otherwise. How did I remotely imply that the China Study was conducted on rats? I didn't.

Actually, I don't even see how my post is obfuscating even without reading the links as in the quote Dr. Eades refers to 4 paragraphs. It's seems rather obvious to me (and other's I've asked to review this as a sanity check as I am sure I am biased having written the comment) he's talking about a study (not necessarily the China Study) that the 4 paragraphs are discussing.

I, too, am guilty of skipping over links as to spend too much time (and tick off my wife). But as educated individuals (which I suspect the vast majority of us on this site are) I would expect them to follow references for understanding....which I specifically encouraged the readers to do. I will gladly admit to not providing a stand alone comment, but hardly think that makes me guilty of obfuscating (intentionally or not) as I did provide a subset of a link and the link to where the information originated.

By the way, the vast majority of technical, medical and legal papers rely a lot on and reference previous work. Were my audience a group of high school students, or a group from the general population, I wouldn't expect them to both or understand the significance of looking at referenced materials. I would have provided more detail and been more specific with my comment.

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/18/2015 12:47 AM

"He has mentioned the China Study a number of times. Here's a link to one of his blogs on the topic called The China Study vs. The China Study. It's a bit lengthy but worth the read IMHO. One of the things he elaborates on is how the China Study obfuscates and thus can be misleading to the casual (and even no so casual) reader.

One example is:

First, take a look at how subtly these four paragraphs (I did not include the 4 paragraph to save space…have a look at the link if you want to see them) are written, especially II. Note how he writes "the protein we consume"? I'm sure many people took these paragraphs to mean that the studies were done on humans. That's almost the implication. Reread them to see if they indicate anywhere that the author is talking about rat studies."

Read it again! The second paragraph in your post, which is the first in my quote from your post, mentions nothing but the China study (4 times). Then you say "One example is:", followed by the paragraph talking about rat studies. This definitely implies to me that the China study involved rats, not humans. There is nothing to indicate that you switched from discussing the China study in one paragraph, to a different study in India in the next paragraph.

When you wrote these paragraphs, I'm sure you had the correct intentions, and when you re-read them, you still have those intentions in mind, so you make jumps in the thought process that others can't follow.

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#56

Re: Cholesterol and Lethal Diseases

05/16/2015 2:54 AM

Just cause the current generation 1 of cholesterol lowering RXs has severe side effects, maybe worse than the cholesterol in the first place, in time many improved generations of the drugs will appear. .......but not yet, huh?

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