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Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 7:30 AM

Read in to-day's newspaper a welding robot killed a workman in a auto welding factory located near N.Delhi, India. The workman went near to welding arm of robot which pushed him near the wall and crushed him. Has such accidents happened in other countries too?.

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#1

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 7:54 AM

They are called industrial accidents.

It's important to understand that the way this is reported almost makes it sound like some malicious act of some intelligent machine. It is not.

As unintelligent as the machine was, the reporter, in this case, almost makes it look brilliant in self-comparison.

This is no different than getting yourself hurt or killed using a CNC milling machine.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 8:38 AM

the issue is like the conflicts of the recent Robocop movie

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#10
In reply to #1

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 9:58 AM

In history, there have been instances of animals being put on trial...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_trial

I'm wondering if, with the development of "autonomous machines", whether we'll be putting, say, driverless cars on trial.

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#26
In reply to #10

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 4:51 PM

I am here to kill see the witness survivor of the recent vehicle mishap...?

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#2

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 8:07 AM

Proper safety procedures were not followed or even established. Fencing,IR sensors around the perimeter of the arm motion range,even safety rails or painted safety guides on the floor.

I have been to India in a manufacturing environment and they would not meet OSHA standards. Here, in America, even having a fire extinguisher on the floor and not mounted on a wall or support can cause fines of 70K USD.

The difference , here in America, is we have lawyers lined up waiting for an industrial accident.

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#4

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 8:44 AM

This happens often enough....

4 Words apply here.

"LOCK OUT/TAG OUT"

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#21
In reply to #4

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 1:38 PM

OP does not say the reason that he ventured into the area. My take on it as more of a safety issue. With nothing to sense someone moving into the robots motion area.

Even without the lock out/tag out something should have sensed him moving into the area.

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#24
In reply to #21

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 2:26 PM

I have heard story about this happening..... In Japan a tech in the Auto Assembly line who was servicing one and got mangled.

Back in the late 90's, I was at the World Wide Food show at the McCormick Center in Chicago.

And The Japanese had an automated butchering process that butchered beef.

when I saw this ..... contraption,... It had automatic chains saws and every thing..... The first thing I thought of is the service tech not doing a LOTO..... what a made for movies horror flick..... that's what I dreamed of that night.

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#32
In reply to #24

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 8:04 AM

Be a new take on the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 8:14 AM

this just came in across my wire..... it a nasty way to end.

I'm not even going to get into processing vessels on ships that process fish.

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#102
In reply to #24

Re: Robot a Murder

09/04/2015 5:52 AM

Cincinnati Milacron had a demo at McCormick with a big T3 robot that was dealing blackjack to attendees. It was a slick setup, attendees played from consoles with HIT/STAND buttons, and the cards were something like 18" x 12" that the robot dealt onto a big easel. After each hand it would pick up the cards and dump them back into the card shoe. While I was watching, the robot dropped one of the cards on the floor next to the hopper for the shoe. I thought to myself, "Not bad, but not perfect."

The robot deals the next hand to the humans, turns over the hole card showing that it had a 6 and a 5. The synthetic voice says, "Dealer will hit." The arm swings towards the shoe but picks up the card off the floor instead and deals itself a King.

The human players began to protest loudly and one of them shouts, "He cheated!"

I looked at him and said, "He?" The guy just stood there looking back and forth between me and the robot with his mouth moving but no sound coming out. I cracked up!

But can you really trust 'em? (Just kidding!)

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#105
In reply to #102

Re: Robot a Murder

09/04/2015 9:49 AM

Which "He" was the gambler talking about?

The Robot? The robot CANNOT 'cheat,' it can only follow its instructions. 'Cheating' would be doing something it was not programmed for.

The programmer? The game is not for money, or even any prizes of note. It's all a ruse, like every other booth attraction at the trade show, it's there to get people to see the capabilities of the device, and hold them there long enough for a salesman to grab them. It was a feat for the programmer to set up the 'rigged hand' subroutine, which, when triggered by whatever means, would.

  1. Locate a specific item from the collection and set it aside. ("Dropping" the King on the floor.)
  2. Arange the other items in a specific order from a random jumble. ("Stacking the deck" so the Dealer will be dealt a 5 and 6.)
  3. Locate an item in a random position and orientation, collect it and orient it correctly. (Picking up the 'Dropped" King.)

The Gambler was just too emotionally invested in the hand to see the technical skill involved in setting up the 'rigged hand.'

Besides, that was better than the usual demonstration of the High-speed 'spider bots' picking items off a moving conveyor, missing one, and then snagging it RIGHT before it is dumped off the belt. That was impressive the first year it was shown, 'classic' the second year, and 'old hat' the third. We don't WANT the same old magic tricks, show us what you've been able to make it do AFTER you came up with the 'camera missed one, there it goe-wow! the robot got it!' routine.

Although, the 'strong man' routines continually impress, partially from the sense of danger. "Yes that's the same Mack Truck tractor the robot was swinging around last year, but I don't find it boring, it keeps grabbing my attention out of the corner of my eye. Must be my irrational fear of being hit by moving trucks." Okay, it's more intimidation than fascination, but grabbing eyeballs is grabbing eyeballs. Like that one year at the D&MMW (Or whatever the old National Manufacturing Week tradeshow's new initials are) where Automation Direct had a device that would play out a short snippet of certain classical (therefore royalty-free) songs by striking tuned lengths of cut thinwall conduit. Each snippet lasted just a few seconds, and there was an irregular spacing between snippets, so people were being distracted every time one played, "What booth is that coming from? Sounds like it's this way- Oh it stopped. Who is DOING that?"

Self-marking as OT because we're only tangentally talking about robots now.

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#5

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 9:12 AM

Yes this happens way too often. (Once is too often.)

Automated equipment is the most dangerous risk to humans in industry.

There have been at least two instances in this last year wherein someone has lost their life from contact with automated machines in the coal mines.

Robotics have a clearance area around them sometimes called a "swing radius" that should be kept free of humans and anything else that can be engaged by the machine.

The safe area boundaries are set outside the most extreme reach of the machine in every direction within a 360 degree radius.

Here is the USA there are warning signs posted around the machines and usually a yellow barrier line or solid painted area on the floor that warns all personnel not to enter unless the machine energy sources are off, locked, and tagged.

Despite the danger and all of the warning signs, some really stupid personnel continue to risk their welfare by entering the restricted areas without locking and tagging the machine(s) out.

A friend I worked with on a project two tears ago lost his right forearm and hand due to entering the restricted area of an automated machine.

When this atrocity happens to one of your friends or family, it is heart wrenching and becomes very personal.

I would rather those around me have an intense dislike for me for interfering with their work than to be their buddy by not stopping an unsafe act.

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#11
In reply to #5

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 10:18 AM

I don't see this as any different than any other industrial accident.

The real problem is the media and its desire to turn this into the terminator.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 10:25 AM

"I vill be bach, and I am going to veld your nutz together!"

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#22
In reply to #11

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 1:40 PM

Yes you are correct.

Today's media is all about sensationalism and increasing audience numbers.

There are very few times when the news is reported accurately and to the point.

I have noticed that often news appears to be released without any real investigative footwork being done.

All too often this results in some retractions and apologies being issued but it seems they only take place after the source is threatened with legal action.

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#6

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 9:39 AM

Perhaps the robot did not notice the workman was near, now the robot cannot work properly due to post traumatic CPU stress syndrome.

Seriously, were any safety devices in place? If it did happen in the US you would be able to review the publicly accessible OSHA report to get an account of what happened and what possible actions to be taken to prevent it from happening again. That would be giant leap in the amount and accuracy of detail provided by a newspaper.

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#7

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 9:46 AM

About 15 years ago, when I first moved to Nevada, I worked at a gypsum wallboard plant as an Electrical and Mechanical Technician.

We worked rotating shifts and after a few months of 18 hour days, exhaustion sets in!

There was the rotary knife towards the end of the line which took a signal from a rotary encoder to cut the wallboard to length very similar to the picture above except the encoder was placed after the knife.

It was maintenance day and nearly everything was LOTO (locked out / tagged out) and I was assigned to clean the rotary knife and change the blades.

Being exhausted, I took the short cut and asked my co-worker if the knife was LOTO and he replied "YES". I said OK and started cleaning the knife. I reached through to get some debris off of the encoder arm which was difficult to access from the other side of the machine and removed the debris.

I walked around the machine to clean off the encoder wheel.

I reached in, just barely picked up the arm that supported the encoder wheel and the rotary knife cycled!!!!!

I stepped back in horror, my arm was just inside the knife 20 seconds ago. I felt a wave of nausea come over me and I almost threw up.

I had almost lost my arm because I took a short cut. I don't blame my co-worker. It was not their responsibility to verify my LOTO.

Had I been injured, it would have been my fault and my fault alone.

I have never short cut my LOTO since!

There is a reason that there are LOTO regulations.

To keep workers safe and alive!

Please LOTO!

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#16
In reply to #7

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 10:48 AM

Safety says almost 96% root causes of accidents can be blamed from human error. All the rest are fluke and bad luck.

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#27
In reply to #7

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 6:15 PM

Did that get reported as a "close call" incident? Diligent reporting, investigation, and correction of those is some of the best prevention.

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#35
In reply to #27

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 8:58 AM

No, it didn't get reported because there were no policies like that in place at the time I worked there.

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#31
In reply to #7

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 6:55 AM

LOTO is a lot like safe gun handling. When someone hands you a firearm, you check the chamber, to insure it is empty. Even if you just watched, the person who handed it to you, check it themselves. Never trust anyone's eyes but your own. Sounds paranoid but, after putting a bullet in a wall, due to misplacing trust in another. I learned that, others are both careless and stupid. Thank god, the wall was the only casualty that day. Well, my underwear was technically a casualty as well but, that was a small price to pay.

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#39
In reply to #31

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 10:37 AM

"Well, my underwear was technically a casualty as well but, that was a small price to pay."

Better a 'brown trousers' event than a 'red vest' event.

(There's a 'German Officer/French Officer' joke that explains that comment, I'll share it if anyone needs to hear.)

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#38
In reply to #7

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 10:34 AM

Thank you for that story, first-hand accounts are always more meaningful.

I am also thankful that you managed to learn that lesson without having to pay a high price for it.

Lock-Out/Tag-Out and Machine Guarding is vital in ANY industrial area.

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#41
In reply to #38

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 11:04 AM

I had kind of put it out of my head because just the thought of it bothered me.

There were so many areas in that plant that were hazardous to life and limb.

Shortly before I quit that job, I was almost run over by a 35,000 Lb capacity forklift. The drivers were supposed to honk the horn at all corners and intersections. A female operator, new to the plant was driving the forklift near the control panel where I was working. I was walking towards the tech shop and rounded a corner where it was a blind corner. As I rounded the turn I stepped directly in front of the forklift because she had forgotten to honk.

Don't get me wrong, I was at fault also. Tired and exhausted, I was walking faster than normal to get the tools I needed and didn't look around the corner. Gladly I was able to grab the edge of the control panel and swing myself flat against it and again narrowly avoided another accident.

From that point on, I was checking the corners before stepping out.

Every operator and maint. tech was on rotating shifts and pretty much worked a 12 - 14 hour shift. everyone was loopy from lack of sleep and disrupted sleep cycles.

I had an option to accept a very well paying job about 3 years later. When they mentioned rotating shifts, I asked if I would have to work that shift, they replied "yes". I stood up in the interview room, thanked everyone for the offer and stated "I will not work a rotating shift ever again" and exited the room!

They were a bit surprised but I did hear that a colleague was hired there a few years later and they had gone to straight shift work because they had a worker fatality and the root cause was found to be exhaustion and lack of sleep due to the rotating shifts.

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#43
In reply to #41

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 11:46 AM

"I had an option to accept a very well paying job about 3 years later. When they mentioned rotating shifts, I asked if I would have to work that shift, they replied "yes". I stood up in the interview room, thanked everyone for the offer and stated "I will not work a rotating shift ever again" and exited the room!

They were a bit surprised but I did hear that a colleague was hired there a few years later and they had gone to straight shift work because they had a worker fatality and the root cause was found to be exhaustion and lack of sleep due to the rotating shifts."

*shakes head slowly*

When, oh when will Management learn that you CANNOT treat people like they are machines? Give the workers time to rest, give them a chance to be somewhere other than 'on the job.' Long hours, rotating shifts, mandatory overtime, all that adds up to Worker Fatigue, and THAT leads to 'industrial incidents.' As any Safety Engineer will say, don't call them 'accidents,' an accident cannot be avoided, almost ANY injury or damage in an industrial environment can be prevented or avoided with the proper precautions.

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#44
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Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 12:02 PM

Exactly. They are not accidents. They are negligence.

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#8

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 9:49 AM

It probably should have been written as "Foolish worker accidentaly killed by automatic welding machine"

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 9:51 AM

Let's get this straight, foolish worker yes, and this was no accident. So drop 'accidentally'.

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#13
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Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 10:27 AM

If it is not an accident, then it would be murder.

An accident is an unintended consequence through a random event or negligence. Deliberately killing someone is murder. The machine is incapable of making that thought, so who are you saying committed this murder?

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#14
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Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 10:31 AM

If accidence includes definition of negligence, yes.

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#15
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Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 10:46 AM

OK so it should say "Negligent worker..."

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 10:54 AM

2nd Degree manslaughter?

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#18
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Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 11:25 AM

... on the part of the designer of this system and the management of the factory, YES, without a doubt!

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#19
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Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 11:40 AM

Settled.....

That was easy.

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#23
In reply to #8

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 2:05 PM

I am not sure "foolish" is the right word to describe the worker nor what happened.

Have you ever missed your turnoff when going someplace or coming home after work?

How about running a stop sign or stop light? Or pulled out in front of someone?

What about all the times this happened that you are not aware of?

I firmly believe that there is a significant number of people in the workplace every day that have their mind on other things instead of where they are and what they are doing. If they are in the wrong place at the wrong time the results are overwhelming and/or catastrophic.

I am sure when we are in that state of mind none of our actions are logical nor safe.

I also know that there is a significant number of people in the workplace that cannot or do not recognize danger as well as others.

I know there are a few that intentionally and knowingly ignore safety rules and take extreme risks.

I know that all too often management and supervision personnel are so focused on production that they adopt procedures and rules that put workers at risk.

Maybe the person was new on the job and was not aware of the danger or maybe he was being forced to enter and clean the area while the machine was in operation by management.

All safety rules come about from human error and they are written in blood.

We too often turn a blind eye to risky behavior or unsafe conditions until someone is badly injured or killed or we suffer expensive equipment damage and/or losses.

Unless I knew more my descriptive words would be: "Unfortunate worker accidentally killed by automatic welding machine.".

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#36
In reply to #23

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 9:01 AM

Believe me, I know what it's like to be on "autopilot".

Do something so many times and complacency sets in.

Very dangerous!

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#20

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 1:03 PM

Thanks all for your comments. It is not murder but it is accident, purpose is to caution all our friends to create a safety consciousness to avoid such accidents and loss of human life.

I am trying to contact the factory personnel who are 1000 miles away from me to get get details for information of you all

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#25

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 2:32 PM

As an aside: when this story first broke around the beginning of July a journalist named Sarah O'Connor wrote a piece on it, and, was surprised when she was deluged with tweets and jokes from terminator fans.

Article here.

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#28

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 10:44 PM

http://www.wired.com/insights/2014/08/are-killer-robots-on-the-rise/

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Robot a Murder

08/13/2015 11:02 PM

You want I should give this guy the clamps boss??

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#30

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 12:54 AM

Recently there was a case in Germany.

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#83
In reply to #30

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 10:14 PM

You seem to be the only one who saw the question. All of the "best" answers completely missed the question. I'm glad there are still a few people who bother to read the question.

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#84
In reply to #83

Re: Robot a Murder

08/20/2015 4:48 AM

Whaaat? Did you read or have you followed this thread at all? Unfortunately, industrial accidents happen everyday of the week including Germany.

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#89
In reply to #84

Re: Robot a Murder

08/21/2015 11:04 PM

Yes, I read most all of the answers. I thought pnaban had one of the best answers, because he addressed the initial question. Did I do something wrong?

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#85
In reply to #83

Re: Robot a Murder

08/20/2015 5:43 AM

It was answer in the first post, you seemed to have 'missed' that. Few people missed that, and you're one of them.

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#86
In reply to #85

Re: Robot a Murder

08/21/2015 11:58 AM

But the question was: "Has such accidents happened in other countries too?" The first post afterward was about it being an unintelligent machine, and then went on to belittle a reporter.

The second moved right along to "Robocop movie".

The third was" instances of animals being put on trial".

I'm sorry if my reply to pnaban upset you.

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#88
In reply to #86

Re: Robot a Murder

08/21/2015 12:29 PM

No it didn't upset me.... industrial accidents happen, for various reasons.

Even though its a good discussion, to assume that its isolated is very insular.

Like a lot of threads here, once a consensus that and answer to a question has been satisfied, the conversation will trail to ancillary topics that range to trivia, opinions (which we have plenty of that around here), humor or light conversation. All because the initial topic is of interest....

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#87
In reply to #83

Re: Robot a Murder

08/21/2015 12:28 PM

Good point and accurate as well.

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#33

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 8:08 AM

A superpower is planning to use robots as soldiers,for destructive purposes.

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#40
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Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 10:53 AM

A "superpower" is using soldiers, trained for combat, in police actions were the subject "underpower"? has police that run away when police action, involving the dissemination of innocent people from terrorists, is required. The soldier/robots would be able to be vaporized by IED's without the mess.

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#42
In reply to #40

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 11:39 AM

Yeah, but in the tests so far with mixed human/robot squads, where the robot is just a 'pack mule' carrying the 70-80 pound (each) rucksacks, you still get the soldiers diving to protect their 'little buddy,' and getting as distraught over a robot's demise as if it were a human.

Remember, these robots are headless quadrapeds about the size of a huge dog or small pony, And they only have four or so modes: Stand Still, Lie Down, Follow the Squad, Be an RC Car (When the 'handler' is using the remote control to steer it around.)

Man, War is a real mind*BLEEP*, we dehumanize people on the 'other side' and humanize machines on 'our side.'

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#45
In reply to #40

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 12:20 PM

If a human commits crime against humanity UN can hold an inquiry but if a Robot commits a crime whom can you charge and who will pay compensation.

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#46
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Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 12:24 PM

you lost me at 'the UN doing something',....... that's hilarious.

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#47
In reply to #45

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 12:39 PM

How can a robot commit a crime? Where is the Mens Rea, the Guilty Mind?

Your statement makes as much sent to me as "...but if a screwdriver commits a crime..."

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 12:46 PM

We could ask Isaac Asimov about robot crimes....

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#49
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Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 1:03 PM

Ah, but Asimov's robots are quite different from the robots we have today.

Those robots have positronic brains, they have feelings, emotions, they can make decisions based on morality. They have minds that can plan, feel remorse, and (as often happens in the stories) shatter into insanity.

Our 'robots' are mere tools, controlled by a dumb computer that cannot think or feel, but simply executes it program. That is why (in the US, at least) they are treated as 'wild animals' in the industrial environment, locked away from people with guards ant light screens, with safety systems, separate from their programming, that act as 'handlers,' forcing the robot to freeze and de-energize at the first HINT that a person MIGHT be getting close to its reach.

I stand by my earlier statement, today's robots are no more capable of committing a crime than a screwdriver. It is the human mind behind the tool that can commit the crime (such as hitting someone else on the head with said screwdriver), or through his own actions, put himself in harms way (such as the poor fellow who thought he could 'scoot through' a robot's enclosure while it was running with the safeties off, or a man who climbs over the fence at a zoo to 'play lion tamer' and stick his head in the cat's mouth. You put meat in a lion's mouth, and the lion will eat. You stand in an area where industrial equipment will pass through and the equipment will try to move through you.)

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#37

Re: Robot a Murder

08/14/2015 10:10 AM

QUICK - CALL JOHN CONNER!!!

Judgement day has started.

Anyone see a look alike for Arnold lurking nearby?

That's what the media wants you to think. We're engineers - we know better - right?

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#50

Re: Robot a Murder

08/15/2015 7:17 AM

I have gathered some information. Name firm is SKH Metals Ltd. Gurgoan, they mfr. many auto ancillaries with collaboration with western firms. The operator died of electric shock as he went near the robot arm. Companies web site is www.krishnagroup.co.in.

There is media report by International Business Times web: www.ibtimes.co.in.

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#56
In reply to #50

Re: Robot a Murder

08/17/2015 3:58 PM

It was found that the CPU for this robot was descended from the annunciator panel featured in the three stooges movie "Dizzy Doctors" The panel was executed by Larry Fine with a .380 caliber revolver. It's last words were "Oh! Ya got me".

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#51

Re: Robot a Murder

08/16/2015 9:02 AM

The machines are taking over.... Not..

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#52

Re: Robot a Murder

08/17/2015 11:40 AM

The OP says "Robot a Murder", or maybe is supposed to read "Robot a Murderer".

That is a misleading statement because an inanimate object cannot "murder" anyone. It is as has been mentioned, "an accident". It is like the killing of the lion in Zimbabwe recently. Some people were referring to this as a murder. It was not a murder.

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Robot a Murder

08/17/2015 1:01 PM

"It is like the killing of the lion in Zimbabwe recently. Some people were referring to this as a murder. It was not a murder."

You're right, it was not murder, since the victim is not a human being, it was poaching, which is still illegal.

Changing the term does not make a wrong act into a right one. The dentist may have been mislead by his guides, but he is not a robot, nor a screwdriver. He made a Choice to loose that arrow, and later to pull that trigger. He went to Africa with the intent to end the life of a creature listed as 'Threatened' species(1), and he did what he intended to do. He may consider it an accident that the lion he killed was a 'celebrity,' but the fact remains that he went to an area specifically to kill a Threatened species for sport. Not for food, not because the animal was a threat to lives, livestock or property. No, he chose to end another life purely for the thrill. That is why the media has labeled him a 'murderer' and not a 'poacher;' we consider poachers to be people who kill protected species for profit, he kills for fun. Sane people cannot grasp how someone could kill simply for the sake of killing as anything other than a Complete Monster. Poachers are not monsters, they're mercenaries, disgusting humans, but still humans. Murders ARE monsters, they find enjoyment in what normal people find abhorant.

(Self-marking as OT because we're gettins away from the robot issue and veering into the lion issue.)

Notes:

  1. There's three 'levels' of Threatened in the IUCN(2) books, then there's Extinct in the Wild, and Extinct. So even a Threatened species needs to be looked after, not hunted for fun.
  2. International Union for the Conservation of Nature
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#54

Re: Robot a Murder

08/17/2015 3:28 PM

adreasler, the thought I was trying to bring out is the aspect of people giving animals the same level of value as humans. They aren't on an equal plane of value. Animals don't reason, they don't have souls, etc. That makes them different. Mankind was also given "dominion" over the animals.

This is a problem that arises from an evolutionary mindset. If (or since as evolutionist think) we're all animals anyway then they can easily think there isn't any difference and if an animal is killed, it is the same as killing a human being.

This Post all relates back to the term "murder" by a piece of machinery in the OP.

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Robot a Murder

08/17/2015 3:58 PM

They aren't on an equal plane of value. Animals don't reason, they don't have souls, etc. That makes them different. Mankind was also given "dominion" over the animals.

I must disagree with you on that one.

Animals do have souls and I will argue till my dying day on that point!

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#58
In reply to #54

Re: Robot a Murder

08/17/2015 9:39 PM

Of course animals reason.

The real difference between man and animals is his ego. For some reason we feel offended if some other organism can do something that we once thought was exclusive to humans.

Language was one barrier, but we were just too stupid to understand the language of other animals. It may not be as complex as ours, but many species use a form of language to communicate.

Once that barrier was disproven someone came up with the idea that animals couldn't write. That was blown out of the water, too.

Our egos seem to be stuck on stupid that there has to be some clean-cut line between us and other creatures, but the reality is that the demarcation is not a discrete line, but a separation by degree. It's an analog function and not a digital one.

Worse yet, for those that want to keep their egos in a separate box, we are learning that intelligence means different things to different creatures. Animals should be considered as sentient beings that only differ from us by degree.

Lastly, as far as dominion over the other creatures goes, I submit to you as stewards over this domain we are doing a pretty rotten job and should consider rewarding our efforts to date with a generous portion of humble pie. It's non-fattening, too.

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 7:13 AM

Anonymous Hero,

I always appreciate your thoughtful and intelligent input in the threads on CR4.

Starting in Genesis and throughout Scripture there is clear distinction between man and animals and a superiority of man over them. That doesn't mean they aren't important, it means they are different in value. You're correct that often we aren't very good stewards of what we have been entrusted with. That doesn't change the order of how things are to be, that just means we need to do better.

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 7:22 AM

I think that my point was simply that we are not as fine as we might think.

That doesn't mean we don't have potential, just that as a social group we are not demonstrating it very well.

Maybe there is something to learn from the lessor beasts.

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#65
In reply to #54

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 1:56 PM

" Animals don't reason, they don't have souls, etc"-- You know not much about animal science and behavior. Try saddling an un-broke horse, let alone trying to mount it. The animal, the horse knows the reason it doesn't want anything on it's back! Or, take some breeds of birds that mate for life and morns the death of their mate, some to the point they starve themselves to death, if that ain't having a soul ......

You should really rethink that statement you made

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 2:10 PM

"You should really rethink that statement you made"

He made that statement because his Book says so. If he has to think about his statements, he's doubting his Book, and if he doubts his Book, he'll be in severe emotional torment, because that would open up the possibility that the One Thing he's based his entire life on might be wrong on some things.

Check out the information he's put on his profile and you'll see where he stands.

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 2:19 PM

Yup and all we can do is to feel sorry for him and his tunnel vision. Unfortunately there are people like him in the world

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#69
In reply to #67

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 2:28 PM

So, just to clarify; if one stands for something they "have tunnel vision"?

Do you have "tunnel vision" if you aren't open to a Scriptural view of life? It seems like often people who claim to be tolerant are those who don't allow others to think for themselves.

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#68
In reply to #66

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 2:25 PM

As the saying goes, "if you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything."

I don't expect someone who doesn't trust what Scripture says to understand how things are and that is their choice. I can't and wouldn't try to force anyone to believe differently than what they do. That's not my job. My job is simply to live my life according to Scripture. I don't put anyone down for not believing as I do. Why do you?

"the One Thing he's based his entire life on might be wrong on some things" Just a question, what do you base your life on?

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#70
In reply to #65

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 4:17 PM

Or elephants that listen to music and dance and some that even will try to play music.

We are just scratching the surface of our understanding of the animal kingdom, which includes ourselves, by the way.

We are only enriched all the more when we open our minds and dispense with the preconceived notions of the egos of our ancestors and even ourselves.

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#71
In reply to #70

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 5:16 PM

Yes, the world becomes a much richer, much more wonderful thing, when we open our definition of 'siblings' to include those who may not fit some people's definition of 'human.' When we reach out to them in friendship, and try to learn from them, instead of claiming 'dominion' over them, it enriches us all, and may even allow us to, if not metaphorically return to the Garden, at least allow us to build a new Garden together.

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#72
In reply to #71

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 5:40 PM

I am not sure we need to run around and hug every animal or tree. We just need to live in balance with it.

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#73
In reply to #72

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 9:25 AM

Well, I was 'flowering up' the post to line up with some concepts in Genesis, for Facilitymngr's sake.

Wow, rereading my post there, I just realized that it could have been used verbatim in the Civil Rights, or today in support of LGBT rights. I guess Tolerance and Acceptance never really go out of style, thankfully. (Now if we could only get Intolerance and Hatred to be as unfashionable as a plaids-and-polka-dots Zoot Suit.)

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#74
In reply to #73

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 10:12 AM

adreasler: Your statement "in support of LGBT rights. I guess Tolerance and Acceptance never really go out of style, thankfully", is very telling.

So are these things acceptable to you as well; abortion, bestiality, necrophelia, polygamy, marrying a dog/cat/goat/horse, sexual child abuse? If there are no moral standards for behavior, anything goes and is acceptable, right. After all, who are you and I to say something is wrong. Moral Relativism is a hugely slippery slope to a decayed society.

I am all for being tolerant and accepting of people as long as they don't violate Scriptural, moral principles. That doesn't mean I don't care for someone or accept them as individuals, because everyone is created with value, not because of their choices in life and how they live, but because they are made in the image of God. We don't need to be tolerant or accepting of deviant lifestyle choices.

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#75
In reply to #74

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 11:39 AM

"We don't need to be tolerant or accepting of deviant lifestyle choices."

Putting aside the whole 'Gay is Choice'/'Gay is not Choice' debate for now, the T in LGBT is for Transgender. People do not 'choose' to be transgender, any more than they 'choose' to be White, Black, or Latino.

But perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself here. Maybe I've forgotten to insure my terms are properly defined:

Tolerance - "I respect your right to exist, even if I do not approve of all the things you do."

Acceptance - "I understand that we have differences, and that those differences may be irreconcilable, but that should not prevent us from trying to get along and share those things we have in common."

Look at those terms, and think of the phrases I associate with them. Even the most hated of enemies should be able to say those sentences to each other. A Pro-Lifer could sit next to a Pro-Choicer at a football game and root for the same home team. A War Hawk and a Peacenik could stand shoulder to shoulder to support their favorite sandwich shop ('Best Itallian Beef in the city!').

I would like, if I may, to respectfully point out an 'error' in your argument. You are using the 'slippery slope' fallacy, even invoking it by name. You make a hyperbolic assumption that accepting people for who they are means accepting all they do as valid, and therefore, anyone is allowed to do anything without consequence. This is not the point I was trying to make. Perhaps it would be best if I used another phrase you might be familiar with: "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner."

I admit, I am not a perfect human being, I only know of one person who WAS perfect, and he got nailed to a tree for his troubles. But even if I cannot pull the log from my own eye, allow me to try and point out a possible mote in yours. Have you ever spoken with someone you suspected was gay, without bring up his 'being gay' at all? Just talked about the weather, or the local sports team, or what an idiot that senator from Illinois or Oregon or Florida is being up in DC? When I was a child, several times my parents left me in the care of people they knew were gay. I even was sent off to Summer Camp with a Scoutmaster who was both Gay and an Atheist. Do you know how many times I was molested? None. I didn't know these people were gay, or atheist, at the time, but it didn't matter once I found out, because people are, first and foremost, people. If I have a co-worker who goes home every day, then dresses up like Vladamir Putin and has his behind tickled with an ostrich feather while he lies on the floor watching reruns of Happy Days with the audio replaced with Pink Floyd albums, WHY SHOULD I CARE? He's not hurting anyone, he's not breaking any laws, he doesn't come in the next morning with stories or pictures to pass around the office. When he's out in public, he acts decently and treats others with respect, should I hate him because in private he doesn't follow the rules set up by my Minister? ('Getting your behind tickled with an ostrich feather is WRONG!')

And since I'm already going there, I might as well ask this question: Does the version of the Lords Prayer you use say 'forgive us our trespasses' or 'forgive us our debts'? And how do you treat someone who uses the 'wrong' version?

(Self marking as OT because we're not even CLOSE to robots now.)

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#77
In reply to #75

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 1:36 PM

For being OT that was well stated. Took the words out of my mouth. I wasn't going to spend the time to go into detail as you did, it's not worth it, but you nailed it!

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#78
In reply to #75

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 1:37 PM

There is consequence to people's actions, whether in public or private. What one does in "private" will eventually come out in other ways as well. Bill Clinton is a good illustration; he was unfaithful to his wife and was in an adulteress relationship with a number of other women. He did those things in private but that simply was an illustration or outworking of who he is as a person, i.e. his character, which was also displayed in his public service. We should never be tolerant of behavior and character like that, especially with someone in a pulbic leadership position.

If someone chooses to exhibit homosexual behavior or thinks he's really a woman in a man's body, like Bruce Jenner, that is their choice to live like that and it is a result of sin, i.e. the presence of Satan's influence. God didn't create anyone with deviant tendancies, that is a result of the introduction of sin into the world. To say that someone is created as a homosexual or a transgender, etc. is to say that God is not perfect and makes mistakes.

If one doesn't give credence to or accept the Scripture as Truth then none of this will make sense, and I don't expect it to. But Truth stands on its own and doesn't need us for validation.

I know people who are choosing to live a homosexual lifestyle and they aren't followers of Christ so I really can't expect anything more of them. I know they have value as a created person by God so I accept them as such. When they come to know Christ personally, their lifestyle choices should then change as well. Just as I have changed some of my behavior that didn't measure up to God's Truth.

There is a "slippery slope" that leads to the downfall of a society. History is replete with examples where the people didn't stand for Truth, became tolerant of deviant and immoral behavior and those things became an acceptable lifestyle. The Roman Empire is a prime example. Even here in the USA we can see the rise of crime, divorce, out of wedlock births, prison populations, etc. because of a lessening of moral teaching in schools, the legalization of abortion, etc.

I won't or can't convince you to think otherwise, I just don't accept the preconceived ideas put forth sometime, that the earth is billions of years old and making "scientific" conclusions based upon that assumption, or, the "murder" by a robot being one of them, That is making a certain assumption about a piece of machinery being capable of doing intentional harm. That is a wrong statement to accept.

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#79
In reply to #78

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 1:53 PM

Take it some place else, other wise stay on the topic. Simple as that

<unsubscribe>

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#80
In reply to #78

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 2:44 PM

This thread is at a stalemate, neither will change opinions on the topic, so further discussion along those lines is fruitless.

I still respect your right to exist, and respect that you have a viewpoint diametrically opposed to mine. I welcome continued discussions with you on Engineering topics, since that is a love we both share.

(Self marking as OT because this is part of the OT offshoot, and hopefully, the closing of that sub-thread.)

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 4:37 PM

See you on another thread.

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#82
In reply to #81

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 7:25 PM

Now that sounds good to me. Have a great evening.

Peace to my friend

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#76
In reply to #74

Re: Robot a Murder

08/19/2015 1:22 PM

I see this as the starting of a pi$$ing contest, your in the wrong room and the wrong forum for it.

"CR4 -The Engineer's place for news and discussion®", that is based on math and science and not much religion. About the only time "God" is brought into an equation is determine if it happened by an "Act of God". Other wise take it to the "break-room" or another forum, and there's plenty based on Religion.

Sorry but I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing contest over ignorant statement you made and now your trying to justify it, I'm not going to and I'm sure other's won't either.

One more thing, when I was 10 yrs old, a very wise man told me to remember this one thing through out my life and that is, "It's better to be thought of a fool than to open your mouth and prove it. And that's something I try to live by to this day.

So, with that, have a great day

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#99
In reply to #74

Re: Robot a Murder

08/25/2015 1:13 PM

I haven't actually married my cat, but we do live together.

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#100
In reply to #99

Re: Robot a Murder

08/25/2015 1:52 PM

Pssst, the 'offshoot' OT discussion is over, don't go waking it back up.

I appreciate the humor, it's just not the right time or place.

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#101
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Re: Robot a Murder

08/25/2015 3:33 PM

"Schooling" me on CR4 appropriateness is totally unnecessary. I'm sorry for your beef with others during your philosophical debate. But you trying to censor my humor while I try to lighten the mood is a little pretentious.

Have a beer. Enjoy your day! Let me worry about me

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#103
In reply to #54

Re: Robot a Murder

09/04/2015 7:00 AM

Spoken as a true Homo Sapiens. Ever have a dog? He/she becomes a member of the family.

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#57

Re: Robot a Murder

08/17/2015 4:20 PM

It depends upon if we accept the Biblical account of Creation or not. God made animals differently than He made mankind. Genesis 1:26 says that man was to have dominion over the birds of the air, the fish of the sea and the animals on land. When God created man He fashioned him in His image ("let us make man in our image, i.e. in the essence of God) and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life." God didn't do that with animals. Jesus didn't die on a cross to pay for the sins of animals. "For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son so that anyone who believes shall have eternal life." John 3:16 The Bible never teaches that about animals.

I understand if someone doesn't accept the Biblical account of Creation the conclusions are going to be very different. We have to agree to disagree.

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#59
In reply to #57

Re: Robot a Murder

08/17/2015 9:45 PM

"Jesus didn't die on a cross to pay for the sins of animals."

That is true, but that's because animals are already in harmony with their world. We seem to be the ones with the big problems.

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#62
In reply to #59

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 9:16 AM

Facilities, AH, I'm going to have to bow out of this part of the discussion. I feel that if I give my two cents, I'll end up upsetting someone at their Core Values, and that's not good for maintaining civil discourse.

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#104
In reply to #57

Re: Robot a Murder

09/04/2015 8:05 AM

Facilitiesmgr... I think it's really important that religion and politics never enter this room; for reasons that I hope are obvious to you and everyone here. There are reasons that those two things are the cliche` taboo subjects throughout society. Please lets apply that same thinking here in this engineering forum. For the sake of the forum.

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#63

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 9:32 AM

This discussion is a perfect example of how a question on this engineering forum can evolve into a discussion about the bible and god.

I believe that engineering and innovation are a core value of most humans and that core value affects every other aspect of our lives!

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Robot a Murder

08/18/2015 11:07 AM

And on the 8th day, God created a killer robot,.... and god said, this is good......

now where did I put that dam remote control so I can turn it on..

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#90

Re: Robot a Murder

08/22/2015 12:40 AM

According to law can the affected person take legal action against the designer or patent office or labour office.

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#91
In reply to #90

Re: Robot a Murder

08/22/2015 8:17 AM

Depends if they can prove that the manufacturer/designer intentional designed and manufacturered equipment by forgoing or dismissing safety devices or ignoring known dangers all for making/saving money.

It's called punitive damages..

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#92
In reply to #91

Re: Robot a Murder

08/24/2015 9:06 AM

In this case, the likely defendants would by the company that runs the factory and the company that designed/installed that robot's 'work cell,' both for failing to include proper safeties and guards to prevent human access or to shut down the robot in case of a human intruder.

(The leagalize says it differently, but that's the 'cleartext' translation.)

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#93
In reply to #92

Re: Robot a Murder

08/24/2015 9:20 AM

It can be an attorney 'shan gri la'

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