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Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 5:18 PM

c/o: IHS Engineering 360 August 24, 2015

To Whom It May Concern:

This is a "NEW Project". I am an Inventor who is Researching & Developing an apparatus.

Questions:

1. What is the maximum ft-lbs of torque or hp that your Power/Clock Springs can produce?

2. Can your company design a Power/Clock Spring that can produce 550ft-lbs or 1hp to 2750ft-lbs or 5hp? If so, how many revolutions and can it be made to provide Constant Torque?

3. If you have the capability to design a Power Spring asked about in Item 2. above, can a Rewind Mechanism be added to rewind the Spring?

4. Does the Load determine the RPM of the Power Spring/Barrel Mechanism?

In other words I need a Huge Clock Spring that provides enough torque to move a car or at least 500 pounds for about 15 minutes.

Thank you for your time and effort. I look forward to a response!

Winderlin Lemon,

Inventor

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#1

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 5:33 PM

Go to the "products and suppliers" heading above and place your question to them.

They will not just take your requirements and search for a supplier for you.

You'll have to do the research and developing yourself.

You have asked far too many questions of a beginning nature to be taken seriously.

Good Luck.

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#24
In reply to #1

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 3:31 PM

c/o: IHS Engineering 360 August 25, 2015

To :Lyn

I was talking to an old War Veteran who said he witnessed a car in Japan that was driven by a "Clock Spring". They winded it up and they drove it 40 miles he said. So I tried to develop some questions around that to ask.

This is MY only "Question":

1. What is the maximum ft-lbs of torque or hp that Power/Clock Springs can produce?

I need a Clock Spring that provides enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes.

NOTE: Forget about other "Questions".

I have taken your advice. Thank you for your time.

Winderlin Lemon,

Inventor

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#31
In reply to #24

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 4:07 PM

I believe I have found the source article on this from 1933

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/jap-clockspring-car-runs-40-mi-a-winding/

Looks like an early scam to me. I could find no other source material after a quick search except this one article.

About the only thing I could quickly find online that may be of help to you was this, but mechanic limitations will still limit it to light weight, short range transportation.

http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2007/11/the-lybe-spring.html

There are plenty of other spring designs, but they all still suffer from mechanical limitations and conservation of energy laws. Many different versions (including flywheels) have been tried but they just cannot replace existing transportation methods which are superior to a purely mechanical energy storage.

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#43
In reply to #31

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 10:08 PM

Ha ha... I like the perpetual engine locomotive better....

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/new-rail-car-runs-on-air-electric-perpetual-drive/

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 10:42 PM

Ahh, those were the days. I'm not going to say the good old days, because.....well you know.

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#42
In reply to #24

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 9:49 PM

First you say you need, "enough torque to move a car or at least 500 pounds for about 15 minutes."

Then later you say you need, "enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes."

These requirements are worlds apart in torque required.

Sir, thinking, "outside the box" is fine for inventors. That's how the incandescent lamp and the telephone came to us.

Both of these inventions did not attempt to violate the basic laws of physics.

Thinking "outside the known universe" is not compatible with the known laws of physics. That's where you are.

I, too, am an inventor.

You need to find someone who can give you technical assistance if you want to make this project reality.

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#58
In reply to #24

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

10/12/2015 11:38 AM

I don't really care to see that car, just the army of Japanese all straining together to wind it up!

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#2

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 5:41 PM

this is one invention that will never see the light of day

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#6
In reply to #2

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 9:01 PM

Or it will be a lemon!

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#27
In reply to #6

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 3:54 PM

I was talking to an old War Veteran who said he witnessed a car in Japan that was driven by a "Clock Spring". They winded it up and they drove it 40 miles he said. So I tried to develop some questions around that to ask.

This is MY only "Question":

1. What is the maximum ft-lbs of torque or hp that Power/Clock Springs can produce?

I need a Clock Spring that provides enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes.

NOTE: Forget about other "Questions".

Thank you for your time.

Winderlin Lemon,

Inventor

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#40
In reply to #27

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 9:24 PM

When you delve deeper into the subject you will find that the news article that Jack found is side by side with other neat little inventions.

Neither of them worked or works.

Have you looked at this here?

http://www.globalspec.com/learnmore/mechanical_components/springs/torsion_springs

Maybe you can learn in the process of reading this. I have no numerical answer for your question.

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#46
In reply to #6

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/26/2015 3:17 AM

LOL!!

Leave a sour taste?

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#25
In reply to #2

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 3:37 PM

I was talking to an old War Veteran who said he witnessed a car in Japan that was driven by a "Clock Spring". They winded it up and they drove it 40 miles he said. So I tried to develop some questions around that to ask.

This is MY only "Question":

1. What is the maximum ft-lbs of torque or hp that Power/Clock Springs can produce?

I need a Clock Spring that provides enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes.

NOTE: Forget about other "Questions".

Thank you for your time.

Winderlin Lemon,

Inventor

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#3

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 5:45 PM

My gut feeling is that your plan for the biggest toy car in the world is unrealizable, but good luck.

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#26
In reply to #3

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 3:40 PM

I was talking to an old War Veteran who said he witnessed a car in Japan that was driven by a "Clock Spring". They winded it up and they drove it 40 miles he said. So I tried to develop some questions around that to ask.

This is MY only "Question":

1. What is the maximum ft-lbs of torque or hp that Power/Clock Springs can produce?

I need a Clock Spring that provides enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes.

NOTE: Forget about other "Questions".

Thank you for your time.

Winderlin Lemon,

Inventor

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#48
In reply to #26

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/26/2015 7:53 AM

It depends on the friction of your turntable and how fast you want it to turn. The weight is immaterial other than its effect on friction. If you multiply the speed in RPM x 20, you get the number of rotations required. (I am assuming that your clockwork has a governor to maintain a constant speed.)

The torque provided by a clock spring is proportional to spring rotation (Hooke's law), and each spring will have a maximum rotation in winding it. The gear ratio of your clockwork needs to be more than the ratio of the turntable rotations (in 20 minutes) and the useable spring rotations. (The number of useable spring rotations is the maximum spring rotation minus the rotation where the spring produces the necessary minimum torque.) The necessary minimum torque is the turntable frictional torque multiplied by the gear ratio plus some additional frictional torque provided by the clockwork.

Since the gear ratio and minimum torque interact, it needs to be calculated iteratively. First figure the gear ratio using the total number of spring rotations, then figure the torque required. Subtract the rotation for that torque to get the useable rotations and refigure the ratio. Repeat the process several times over. If the spring is big enough (large enough spring constant and number of rotations), you will converge on an answer. If not, you need a larger spring.

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#53
In reply to #48

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/29/2015 9:28 AM

The first reasonable answer !

There is a problem: governors are brakes which use some of the spring energy so that efficiency will be very low.

What should be specified is the number of turns during the 20' since the spring can deliver a "work" and this is the product between torque and angle. The weight on the table is not the parameter which interests but the friction torque generated by this weight is important. The speed is as well important since to rotate the table a part of elastic potential energy will be converted to kinetic energy. It is possible to make such a system but a VERY detailed analysis is requested.

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#4

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 5:55 PM

Mr. Lemon's profiles are available at both Linkedin and Facebook.

To me, they are unremarkable.

I'll leave it to the members to review them, or not.

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#5

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 6:11 PM

this might inspire you

https://youtu.be/5FJcEvijjks

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#7

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 9:01 PM

Okay you already have a problem. A mechanical spring mechanism that could support 5 HP output for 15 minutes is likely going to weigh at least 1 - 2 tons depending on how exotic of metal you are willing to use which pretty much makes it unusable for a 500 pound vehicles propulsion system.

Doing some in depth studying of applied physics and the laws related to energy and mechanical forces will greatly help you out to understand the how and why of your problems.

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#28
In reply to #7

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 3:56 PM

I was talking to an old War Veteran who said he witnessed a car in Japan that was driven by a "Clock Spring". They winded it up and they drove it 40 miles he said. So I tried to develop some questions around that to ask.

This is MY only "Question":

1. What is the maximum ft-lbs of torque or hp that Power/Clock Springs can produce?

I need a Clock Spring that provides enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes.

NOTE: Forget about other "Questions".

Thank you for your time.

Winderlin Lemon,

Inventor

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#41
In reply to #28

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 9:26 PM

You are in denial! The answer to your bigger question was given above.

Good luck! You will need it!

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#51
In reply to #28

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/26/2015 9:54 AM

The old War Veteran was either pulling your leg, or someone was pulling his leg!

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#8

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 9:03 PM

A wind-up spring becomes impractical above about 6" and other forms of energy storage become ridiculously cheap and simple by comparison....why do you think batteries replaced wind-up cars?

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#29
In reply to #8

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 3:58 PM

I was talking to an old War Veteran who said he witnessed a car in Japan that was driven by a "Clock Spring". They winded it up and they drove it 40 miles he said. So I tried to develop some questions around that to ask.

This is MY only "Question":

1. What is the maximum ft-lbs of torque or hp that Power/Clock Springs can produce?

I need a Clock Spring that provides enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes.

NOTE: Forget about other "Questions".

Thank you for your time.

Winderlin Lemon,

Inventor

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#9

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 9:14 PM

Spring powered passenger vehicle propulsion has been looked into before (it is by no means new).

Try an internet search of "Spring powered vehicle propulsion" for more information. Also try a patent search (I am sure there are more than a few on the subject).

How do you plan on rewinding the spring?

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 10:23 PM

Hold the vehicle with one hand, switch of any lights, put left foot behind right food.

Then get the knee behind the ear and try to push both thumbs gently in your ears.

Turn. Turn again, turn again and now the other eye!

Kick the guy who invented the mechanism in the but without lifting a foot.

This should wind it up perfectly!

Unfortunately I don't know if it is the right or the left ear!

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#30
In reply to #9

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 4:00 PM

I was talking to an old War Veteran who said he witnessed a car in Japan that was driven by a "Clock Spring". They winded it up and they drove it 40 miles he said. So I tried to develop some questions around that to ask.

This is MY only "Question":

1. What is the maximum ft-lbs of torque or hp that Power/Clock Springs can produce?

I need a Clock Spring that provides enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes.

NOTE: Forget about other "Questions".

Thank you for your time.

Winderlin Lemon,

Inventor

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#10

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 9:29 PM

This question, "If you have the capability to design a Power Spring asked about in Item 2. above, can a Rewind Mechanism be added to rewind the Spring?" indicates a complete disconnection with reality.

Suggest that you concentrate on developing your "unique organizer to hold hygiene products".

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#12

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 10:32 PM

Well if you had all the time in the world and an unending supply of money, it could be built I think....by stacking coils in series so that as one is wound the next one then is wound by continuing to turn the winder shaft....you would have maybe a thousand or two large spring coils working in unison, which then could be geared as appropriate....rolling 500 lbs does not take a lot of energy properly set up...a ratcheting clutch setup would have to be designed, and precise gearing...

Picture coils about 3 times this many turns....

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/24/2015 10:58 PM

Here we go something like this....it's called a power spring....

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 1:35 AM

Here's something that might interest you, it shows a two spring motor from an old Victor phonograph being rebuilt from start to finish....in 6 parts, the link is to part 1..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R9i7zp-v9s

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 8:12 AM

Super! Now he just needs to figure out how to make it 500 -750 times more powerful without gaining any weight or size and how to wind ~1200 watt hours of energy into it by hand in a short period of time without having a heart attack or stroke.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 8:40 AM

Easy! See #11!

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#23
In reply to #15

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 12:52 PM

Maybe we could just build all the roads downhill....

Sport model....

All terrain vehicle....

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#49
In reply to #14

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/26/2015 8:01 AM

I repaired on of these in an old phonograph we got from my wife's parents. One of the springs was broken at the end where it connected to the outer can. I was able to make a new hole in the spring with a dremel tool.

Removing the spring from the can was pretty much like defusing a bomb.

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#17
In reply to #13

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 9:48 AM

We use springs like these to unwind and rewind our power cable reels.

These will move with little resistance but once they are static, they lose all force and movement.

I.E it doesn't take much to get them moving yet it takes just as little to stop them!

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#32
In reply to #17

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 4:08 PM

I was talking to an old War Veteran who said he witnessed a car in Japan that was driven by a "Clock Spring". They winded it up and they drove it 40 miles he said. So I tried to develop some questions around that to ask.

This is MY only "Question":

1. What is the maximum ft-lbs of torque or hp that Power/Clock Springs can produce?

I need a Clock Spring that provides enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes.

NOTE: Forget about other "Questions".

Thank you for your time.

Winderlin Lemon,

Inventor

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#38
In reply to #32

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 4:46 PM

Winderlin,

I wish I could help but there is more to your question than it's face value.

I need a Clock Spring that provides enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes.

  • What RPM do you want it to turn?

I think you are thinking of the power of a spring that is unwinding with little or no force attached to it. These springs are not meant to provide high torque.
As for the Japanese car! Back then there were a lot of "inventors" that were basically scam artists that would "design" a "spring powered car" when it was using some other force like an electric motor or air pressure to provide locomotion!

Why do you think there are SO MANY failed inventions that turned out to be a scam the inventor was perpetuating.

There was no miracle spring powered car because if there was, they would be clogging our streets as we speak!

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#39
In reply to #32

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 8:30 PM

Well here is the Victor 4 spring motor....it would come close with some stronger springs using this design with maybe 5 four spring motors...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/161609180497

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm2riorviGs

http://www.victrolarepairservice.com/motorcleaning.html

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#52
In reply to #32

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/26/2015 1:28 PM

Springs for clocks are limited in size.

Which war?

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#18

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 9:55 AM

I'm not trying to be crass here but, if you had the experience and the funds to call yourself an inventor, then be smart enough to surround yourself with smart people. Then pay them well because they are the ones that will make your ideas become realities and hopefully fill your pockets with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

One more thing...... Listen to the smart people.

They went to school for a reason. To learn and succeed.

Remember, they took years of their life to learn this information, you are looking for the easy way out, by asking a forum of engineers and smart non engineers for assistance.

We like to be able to put food on our family's dinner table and drive a reliable vehicle too!

I.E. We like to get paid at the end of the day!

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#19

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 10:06 AM

Open crank, wind, fold crank, chuff chuff chuff-poot, repeat.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 10:22 AM

Spring loaded lawn mower? Really? I want one!

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 10:28 AM

Yep..... Just add the liquid spring fuel (I think it's called Unobtanium) in the liquid spring fuel storage containment unit (gas tank) pull on the liquid spring injector mechanism (pull cord) and listen for the liquid spring fuel ignition sounds (combustion) then push it onto your grass!

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 10:28 AM

For small lawns, requires Popeye forearms.

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#33
In reply to #19

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 4:11 PM

I was talking to an old War Veteran who said he witnessed a car in Japan that was driven by a "Clock Spring". They winded it up and they drove it 40 miles he said. So I tried to develop some questions around that to ask.

This is MY only "Question":

1. What is the maximum ft-lbs of torque or hp that Power/Clock Springs can produce?

I need a Clock Spring that provides enough torque to rotate a turntable with at least 20 pounds on it for about 20 minutes.

NOTE: Forget about other "Questions".

Thank you for your time.

Winderlin Lemon,

Inventor

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 4:12 PM

Please don't multi-post the same response to multiple people, once is enough.

See post #31 above.

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#36
In reply to #33

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 4:36 PM

Mr. Lemon,

The device shown in post #19 is a spring wound lawn mower starter popular in the 60's until people realized it took more work to wind the spring than it did to pull a recoil rope. An out of tune engine could leave you breathless from squatting and winding, whereas the recoil rope system allows for more intense cursing whilst standing on the mower deck and pulling so hard that the mower levitates.

I suspect this spring starter was popular with old geezer/inventors, unclear on the concept.

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#35
In reply to #19

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 4:29 PM

I can't tell from the picture, but that looks like an old Jacobson mower I used as a kid.

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#37
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Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/25/2015 4:45 PM

Jacobson had their own 2 stroke engines back then, and the "turbocone" which consisted of a heavy cone with replaceable blade tips. They even used wire rope for the recoil. The cone was so heavy, the mower would keep spinning for a while after it was shut off.

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#45

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/26/2015 12:45 AM

There may be springs that are suitable for your application that are readily available, and very inexpensive. Automotive springs. The following is rated for 3850 pounds. It measures 14.63" Free length. It is 6" OD. It is rated at 1740 pounds per inch.

NAPA sells it under part # 977-3612.

How you are going to compress it is up to you. But we would love to see the video of that being done. Good luck.

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#47

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/26/2015 7:27 AM

I refer you to the real experts in the field of springs and spring motors.

These folks can make any spring you like:

If you have the money,they have the time and resources.

Just tell them your desired specifications.

http://www.centuryspring.com/

Good luck.

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#50

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/26/2015 8:24 AM

550 ft-lbs of torque is not equal to one horsepower.

1 horsepower equals 550 ft-lbs of work per second. (linear)

Rotational power equals torque X angular velocity.

This might help:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque

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#54

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/29/2015 9:39 AM

Once upon a time Buick tried to develop a rubber driveshaft to reduce vibration.

It was a solid shaft of hard rubber.

Accelleration was fine,no vibration whatsoever.

The problem was,when the accelerator was released,the wheels went into a reverse rotation.

Project was cancelled.

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#55

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/29/2015 10:09 AM

Perhaps you could use a spring similar to the ones in a garage door,except much larger,like perhaps a coil spring from a semi tractor trailer,or maybe double that length for extra range.

Of course,you will not get a net yield of energy,it will always take more energy to wind up the spring than you will get out of it.

You could do this with a very low HP motor,but you will have to wait a while due to

the high input/low output gear ratio required.

This ought to do it:

http://boingboing.net/2009/09/15/motor-attached-to-se.html

Enclose the spring in a tube for safety.

Notify the FAA to warn all aircraft in the area.

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

08/29/2015 11:00 AM

Wow! Very cool!

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#57

Re: Winderlin's Innovations

09/04/2015 7:12 AM

Take two Ex-Lax and come back tomorrow.

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