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Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/22/2015 9:21 PM

Hi all,

Came across the following statement but not sure what has been considered as linings. Second question, Is it overkilled by specifying Marine Plywood for such application. Appreciate your sharing of comments/suggestion,

"All plywood linings to doors of toilets or wet areas shall be marine plywood of weather and boil proof standards, Class 1 Bonding (Marine plywood) standard with Grade 1 face complying with ISO 12466-1:2007 / Amd 1:2013."

Thank you so much

Noel

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#1

Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

09/22/2015 9:32 PM

Noel,

What application????? You don't say.

The crystal ball is broken and we don't read minds.

Do you know what ISO 12466-1:2007 / Amd 1:2013 is? I don't think so.

Some useful information would be nice.

If you can't figure out how to ask the question, how can the forum give a real answer?

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

09/23/2015 1:17 AM

Hi Lyn,

Thank you for sharing.

It is for toilet doors (ie. public toilet) or furniture installed in wet area (ie. kitchen).

Tks

Noel

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#24
In reply to #5

Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

09/24/2015 1:05 AM

Use prefabricated plastic doors.

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#2

Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

09/22/2015 10:00 PM

I think it should be copper plated....

...and have bidets.....

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#3

Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

09/22/2015 10:09 PM

noelngke,

Are you employed by Setsco Services?

What is your position there, if yes?

I'll just flat die if you tell me you are involved in testing and inspection!

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

09/23/2015 1:23 AM

Hi Lyn,

Why die flat? I can not afford flowers. I just need some tangible comments or information to enhance my understanding of the implication if Marine Plywood is not used. Marine Plywood is much more expensive then WBP plywood (ie about 80% more).

Thanks Lyn (any chance you are Lyn Tan?)

Thanks

Noel

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#10
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Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

09/23/2015 6:00 AM

You did not answer any of my questions!

If someone is paying you to make these decisions and you are coming to an anonymous forum for the answers, that speaks rather poorly for you.

Besides, if that's what the customer wants and is willing to pay for it, then give it to them!

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#4

Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

09/22/2015 11:55 PM

Whats the application besides its being toilets doors it might be those on a ferry or a ship. Only you know.

Or is this outdoor or indoor, seaside countryside?

Not enough information!

If you have to ask my guess is it is within the specification. Oh you just copied it out from the specification so why the question?

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#7
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Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

09/23/2015 1:29 AM

Hi IdealSmith,

It is for toilet door (ie wet area) in public faccilities (club house, hospital, hotel.) prepared from plywood. The question is whether it must be MARINE PLYWOOD. If yes, why ? What other type of plywood (ie. WBP Plywood) is good enough for such application.

Thanks

Noel

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

09/23/2015 2:06 AM

Then again what is wrong with:

"All plywood linings to doors of toilets or wet areas shall be marine plywood of weather and boil proof standards, Class 1 Bonding (Marine plywood) standard with Grade 1 face complying with ISO 12466-1:2007 / Amd 1:2013."

Sounds like this is the specification. What position are you in to question that?

Price is established based on the specification. To change the specification based on pricing seems to have it the wrong way around or needs good reason to do so!

Did you try this?

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#46
In reply to #8

Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

05/05/2016 10:57 PM

Hi Smith,

Appreciate your sharing of good and sensible technical know-how.

Yes, seeking professional with logical expertise and experience as a guide to optimize the material specification (not over design but need to be value for money) for client who is looking after public sector facilities.

Understand from a boat builder that it is not necessary and likely to be over the top should anyone specify (without optimization of resources) Marine Plywood for wet area (ie toilet) in building facilities. But again, other may disagree with this, what is your take?

Thank you so much for your kind opinion.

Noel

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: Marine Plywood specified for lining to toilet door, is it overkill?

05/06/2016 8:25 AM

In my limited experience, when ply is used in a boat, it should all be marine ply.....to my mind, it is one of the best types of such boards for when damp is often apparent.

I am sure that boats are built with cheaper, lower quality boards, but you do not have such a good boat and at the end of the day, and the work involved is probably the same....saving little.....

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#9

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 4:42 AM

Seems to me that if you want to have a repeat customer you'd go above and beyond to make the customer HAPPY with the work you perform.

Otherwise the customer WILL find someone that will build the thing the RIGHT way so it does not have to be replaced every year.

But (in the words of Crabtree) I'm funny that way.

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#11

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 7:03 AM

I do not know what ISO 12466-1:2007 says, but my take is that:

  1. The word marine implies that the plywood would be used in a wet environment (or around really tough military men ).
  2. The application of public toilets makes me think the environment would be wet.

Could it be that non-marine plywood would not hold up very well in such an environment?

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#14
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Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 10:23 AM

Neither does the OP.

ISO 12466-1:2007 specifies methods for determining the bonding quality of plywood, blockboard, battenboard, and laminboard, bonded with thermosetting resin, by shear testing.

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#12

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 8:09 AM

Overkill?

Not at all. Probably just the opposite; these are likely the minimum requirements.

Most of us here have worked with a variety of specifications over many years and I think most of us would agree that specifications establish the minimum requirements for the performance of an item or system. You are free to use better, more expensive materials if you want, so long as they meet the minimum performance that the marine grade plywood would provide.

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#13

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 10:18 AM

Marine plywood is designed to get wet.

So if you want to replace the floor everytime some one uses a full roll of toilet paper. Clogs and over flows the toilet go head use standard plywood. Then again not everyone is a good shot.

I hope you are the bean counter and not the contractor asking this.

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#32
In reply to #13

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 8:37 AM

Yes, bean counters often have very "interesting" questions.

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#15

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 10:54 AM

Kitchens, bathrooms, and any other wet areas are highly subject to rot, mildew, and mold.

Use of marine grade plywood in these areas definitely is not "overkill".

Not using marine grade plywood in wet areas exposes humans to unsafe, unhealthy, life threatening conditions.

Not using marine grade plywood in wet areas leads to premature structural failure of the building because once established, rot, mildew, and mold will spread throughout the structure.

This is a "no brainer" building requirement that is based on actual recorded, litigated, catastrophic structural failures and loss of human life from exposure.

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#26
In reply to #15

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 2:12 AM

I have to go with you on your answer here. GA from me.

I just wonder (slightly) what the savings might be over marine ply with something cheaper.

Probably not enough to pay for one hours work of a carpenter in a few years time in replacing the door again!! Not forgetting the cost of a new door.

I am always for high quality components with far longer working lives.....I hate repeating a job because of quality problems....

Marine ply will probably also hold up far better to drunken idiots kicking the door open and closed!!! Which might also happen, not just being in a "wet" area.....

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#36
In reply to #15

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 3:24 PM

GA.

To the OP:

Why use marine grade?

1. What did the architect say when you asked him why he specified this in his design? My guess is that the architect would rather spend $100 dollars now than $1000 later.

2. ISO standards are completely voluntary. Who is asking you to comply to this ISO standard?

3. What are the local building codes? Is this a statutory requirement?

4. You have said nothing about how the surface of the plywood will be treated or finished. Will the required final finish be such that marine quality will be required to overcome some deficiency the surface finish might have in handling the environment?

Whether or not you are able to understand the marine plywood issue, please try to learn how to think about a problem so that you can 1) ask lots of good questions, 2) ask the right people.

The odds of anyone here knowing the accurate answer to your question are very small. We are very far away and we do not know the local laws and codes.

You may feel that you are receiving very snarky responses from many of us, but you have prepared your question poorly. You have barely sketched the shape of the situation and we are required to fill in too many details. Please paint us a picture.

If you are the contractor, your competence will be questioned...mercilessly.

If you are one of the contractor's laborers and are trying to increase your knowledge, you will find a lot of eager help.

If you are a student, you need to tell us up front AND you need to tell us what you have done to try to figure out this problem by yourself first. (In fact, telling us what you have tried first is good information from everybody.)

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#16

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 3:08 PM

Hasn't a similar question been asked before on CR4 a few months ago?

Yes it has, by you.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/101080/Marine-and-WBP-Plywood-Application

Best you read the applicable standards, they will tell you what must be offered as a minimum. Come on now, you appear to work at a test lab you should know all about standards.

Jack - Former Test lab technician

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 4:23 PM
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#20
In reply to #16

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 10:17 PM

Banging head on plywood door!

Marine grade is as painful as any other grade!

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#17

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 3:32 PM

I nominate noelngke for induction into the HALL OF SHAME, where he can languish along with all the other LOSERS.

Do I hear a second?

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 5:04 PM

Here Here!

A certificate could be produced and laminated to the marine plywood lining of a bathroom stall door, with a writable surface complete with an image of the awardee, that would allow comments to be posted and alterations to the image as one sees fit to apply.

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#21
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Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 10:39 PM

How about a genuine wooden plaque. "Glued" in place per ISO 12466-1:2007 / Amd 1:2013?

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#22
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Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 11:22 PM

The only issue I have with your plaque is that it is not shaped like a toilet seat lid. After all it is for A-holes.

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#23

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/23/2015 11:27 PM

If the spec is the customer's and it is possible to supply them with what they want on the time frame they want it, then it is not up to you to question their spec or what you may consider to be overkill.

Reason #1--- It's his money and he wants it the way he wants it.

Reason #2--- He is paying for it with his money, not yours.

Reason #3--- Your paycheck is directly traceable to his check for what he purchased.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#25

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 2:00 AM

Mebbe peepel dat place like pee on door den it is not overkilled by specifying Marine Plywood for such application

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#27

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 3:34 AM

In my opinion, all depends on the degree of 'wetness'. Marine ply with steam around, or water actually splashing on a door, but otherwise I reckon it's definitely overkill. Even in a very wet area, a good enamel paint will suffice, provided top and underside edges are painted. I often find lazy painters don't take doors off to paint, leaving bottom edge raw, with inevitable results over time, particularly if floors are washed with a hose.

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#28

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 4:02 AM

Does it really matter if Marine Ply is overkill or not?

If its what the customer is paying for and what he has specified then its what he should get.

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#29

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 6:40 AM

They have to be pee proof for a start. That's why. Especially male toilets. Not all men have perfect aim.

And for cleaning purposes, such as public toilets, high pressure washers might be used to hose down walls, floors and ceilings - and left to dry. Water will get into every crack and soon the plywood will de-laminate.

I must admit marine ply is a bit OTT, but external ply should be used as a minimum.

I made a mistake of not using external ply, but MDF instead, for wall panels in my boat. Perfectly dry inside, except minor leeks of rain through window seals, and spouts of water through lock walls got in, where the MDF soaked it up and swelled.

Nothing serious but spoiled the decor.

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#42
In reply to #29

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

02/29/2016 10:45 AM

I made a mistake of not using external ply, but MDF instead, for wall panels in my boat. Perfectly dry inside, except minor leeks of rain through window seals, and spouts of water through lock walls got in, where the MDF soaked it up and swelled.

I will not ever use MDF ever again.

I replaced our lounge floor maybe 18 years ago with OSB, wonderful stuff. Levelled everything out, very old house and 12cm difference over the area....

The reason I recommend OSB for other jobs, is that it's stiffer for the same thickness and appears to shrug off water.

Negative side is mainly the rough surface, but different makes are sometimes far better. It has a good side and a less good side where the manufacturer prints stuff on.

The splinters are sharp and occasionally a bottle of TCP (just a dab) will be useful. These are apparent mostly when you cut with a really sharp saw, don't run your hand up the cut edges.....

I will not use anything else and have used it for built in cupboards upstairs and downstairs. If it is to be seen/painted, then go over it with a good filler and a short rub down, before the first coat. Two coats are good.....

I even replaced the MDF wall panels I put up 30 years ago to hang the new kitchen on 9 years ago, with new OSB panels. No sagging, no water absorption....

My house is timber framed, German farmhouse style of many hundreds of years, looks good, but little to support heavy cabinets on.....unless you are lucky that a timber is in just the right place!!!

OSB is very stable.

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#44
In reply to #42

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

02/29/2016 4:45 PM

That was interesting. Thanks Andy. I've just browsed some OSB pages.

I did not realise it was such a widely used material for construction, except it seems to be unsuitable for external use unless protected from rain etc.

When I first saw it I thought it was a roughing board. The stuff in our local store seemed to confirm this because they looked buckled (not perfectly flat) compared to external ply and MDF that was flat (almost). Used on building sites for shuttering and fencing - then scrapped on completion.

I will keep your useful comments in mind next time I need some.

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#45
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Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

03/01/2016 2:01 AM

Go with a straight edge before buying, they should be perfectly flat, both sides....sounds like they may have been badly stored.

I forgot to mention, that the way the panels "lock" together, being slightly offset (one side to the other), using a piece "the wrong way round", will make a tiny step at the join! That is having a piece showing the "back" instead of the "front"......

As it can be difficult to decide which side is which, when cutting and having "lost" the print on the printed/rougher side, use a Felt tipped marker to re-mark that side/bit.

Its really annoying to get a piece cut to size and then find its the wrong way round!! Even worse when you fit it (I screw everything together, sometimes with a dab of wood clue!) and then see the tiny step.....

(Been there, done that and not got given a T-Shirt!)

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#49
In reply to #42

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

04/20/2017 4:42 AM

MDF - Medium Dense Fibreboard?

What is OSB ?

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

04/20/2017 5:45 AM

Look here:-

Oriented_strand_board

Its available almost everywhere.....

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#30

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 7:35 AM

I have lined toilet door with marine plywood and over that I have pasted laminated sheets (Formica) on inside and outside. It is still fine after 20 years.

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#31

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 8:19 AM

Marine plywood typically has no filled voids in the laminate sheets and is laminated with a waterproof adhesive. There are usually other processes involved in the bonding process such as heat, ultrasound etc. check out a product called nevermar. It is marine plywood with hardwood sheets and a plastic laminate outer layer on both sides. It is more expensive of course but I used it for cabinet carcasses in a kitchen with confidence in the strength and durability and ease of cleaning. The real issue is that what the spec calls for. If you are trying to lowball a bid or challenge a code, good luck.

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#33

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 12:07 PM

Noel,

Question 1. Lining; specifies IF you use a multi-ply assembly instead of a solid piece that the exterior faces be marine grade.

Question 2. Many specifications are written for a reason. Follow the specifications in the contract.

I have yet to encounter a contract that specified "Do what ever you want, it doesn't matter." Not saying I won't at some point, just not so far.

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#34

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 12:16 PM

I have friends who are employed by the city parks department. Certain locations for parks, with particular demographics, require that the restrooms be washed down with a fire hose, as there is some confusion amongst the patrons of what exactly is the difference between a toilet, a urinal, a lavatory and the floor.

The constitutes the need for marine grade plywood.

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#35

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 12:25 PM

What difference does it make? If that is the spec isn't everyone bidding it going to have to comply? If you mark up your material by a percentage, tell them it should be gold plated too. You start with a higher cost, mark up the same percentage and make more money. -- JHF

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#37

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 6:17 PM

No suggestion.. just use only 'Marine Plywood'. No other plywood will even come close. The money spent is recouped year after year. A good coating of glass and epoxy is additional protection. If you skip the glass fibre then Gluvit (a lower cost marine) epoxy will work quite well. Clean off the wax after the final coat and prime/paint. I have used it for entire boats. The boat pictured is in excellent condition and nearly 30 years old. Proof positive.

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#43
In reply to #37

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

02/29/2016 10:48 AM

That is a really good way to build boats, I have read about it being used to build Trimarans, Arthur Piver and the like, yours is proof just how good.....

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#38

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 6:31 PM

After doing some research, I have come to the sad conclusion that noelngke is, by some quirk of fate, employed by Setsco Services Pte Ltd located in Singapore.

Comments made in earlier posts and his home page reference to Setsco, lead me to further research.

At no time during his membership has noelngke offered a single shred of help to any posters. This, in and of itself, is no major indictment.

But one would hope that the poster could, at least not ask duplicate, useless questions more than once. (Redundant phrase noted) Or, at least ask some interesting ones.

I think he may be deserving of some type of clusters/chevrons/slashes on his plaque to indicate his "elevated" status in the Hall of Shame.

These would be affixed with an inferior adhesive so that they would, over time, slide down the plaque leaving a trail of slimy sticky goo.

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#39

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 8:13 PM

Is, " The Hall of Shame " , like a " Penalty Box " where you sit out for awhile and when you promise to play nice you get to rejoin the game ?

Or is " The Hall of Shame " a place where visitors can see those rewarded and then afterwards pickup souvenirs at the gift shop ?

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

09/24/2015 9:01 PM

It is but a figment of my imagination.

A Will-o'-the-Wisp.

A phantom belief.

Perhaps a dream, yet to be realized by those who toil here hoping for interesting encounters with knowledge, and wisdom, only to be met with the drudgery and sameness of those who feel entitled to a free ride.

Perhaps the ghost of Yorick will appear and entertain us all again. Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him well.

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#41

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

11/10/2015 12:42 PM

noelngke

You are a parasite, feeding off a host and giving nothing in return.

Find a new job you can do without the assistance of others.

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#48

Re: Marine Plywood Specified for Lining to Toilet Door — Is It Overkill?

05/06/2016 1:27 PM

You could omit the door, and holler at people if they look. ARE YOU LOOKING AT ME!

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