CR4 - The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion ®


Previous in Forum: Sound and Vibration in Solids and Liquids   Next in Forum: SAE Stainless Steel
Close
Close
Close
29 comments
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mindanao, Philippines
Posts: 254
Good Answers: 25

Re-Dissolving Sodium Silicate

11/07/2015 12:05 AM

Years ago I bought a gallon of sodium silicate solution (42° Baumé) for use in silicate foam experiments. I then set most of it aside. Recently I wanted to make a silicate-based adhesive, so I pulled it out of storage, and found a thick, hard white deposit in the bottom of the bottle, presumably solid silicate.

How do I go about re-dissolving that deposit?

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 18245
Good Answers: 1058
#1

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 12:30 AM

This might help...it seems to be water soluble...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_silicate

__________________
Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving. A.E.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Safety - ESD - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Near Frankfurt am Main, Germany. 50.390866N, 8.884827E
Posts: 17920
Good Answers: 196
#16
In reply to #1

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/08/2015 2:33 AM

Good link.

Quoting from that link for the OP:-

Liquid phase[

A mixture of caustic soda, quartz sand, and water is prepared in a mixing tank, then fed into a reactor, where steam is introduced. The reaction is
n SiO2 + 2 NaOH → Na2O•nSiO2 + H2O

It looks as though you need to warm it and possibly agitate it.....even bubbling steam through it may help.

I have a feeling it may take some time......

__________________
"What others say about you reveals more about them, than it does you." Anon.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 482
#2

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 2:10 AM

According to SE's wiki the compound is stable. Just add up water. You may try adding a little heating together with water to inhibit faster mixture of the two.

__________________
The doctor said "just one post or reply aday in CR4, take it or leave it". I said, "what does that mean?"
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida & Ireland
Posts: 1001
Good Answers: 56
#4
In reply to #2

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 4:43 AM

"You may try adding a little heating together with water to inhibit faster mixture of the two."

To "inhibit faster mixture"? I think you mean "encourage" not inhibit.

"Adding up water" ?

"Adding a little heating" ?

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 482
#5
In reply to #2

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 6:10 AM

Well, go ahead, its your mother tongue anyway

__________________
The doctor said "just one post or reply aday in CR4, take it or leave it". I said, "what does that mean?"
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 3)
Guru
Hobbies - Musician - Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA, Thulcandra - The Silent Planet (C.S. Lewis)
Posts: 3786
Good Answers: 167
#3

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 2:25 AM

This is the same mechanism that Na2SiO3 manifests itself as an adhesive (water glass). If there is a surface of silicate (like glass), that is what the sodium silicate molecules are drawn to.

__________________
"Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone." - Ayn Rand
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mindanao, Philippines
Posts: 254
Good Answers: 25
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 8:41 AM

The bottle is plastic.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster #1
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 9:09 AM

Bisaya ka Sir?

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mindanao, Philippines
Posts: 254
Good Answers: 25
#10
In reply to #8

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 10:45 AM

Sorry, no - I'm a foreigner living here. I only understand gamay lang.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Anonymous Poster #1
#14
In reply to #10

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 10:25 PM

Iligan ka gapuyo Sir? we're just miles away.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 6)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 3953
Good Answers: 90
#17
In reply to #14

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/08/2015 5:26 AM

Since he does not know who you are it does not matter or does it?

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mindanao, Philippines
Posts: 254
Good Answers: 25
#19
In reply to #14

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/08/2015 9:53 AM

Yes, I do live there. And you, Mr. Anonymous?

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 933
Good Answers: 80
#7

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 9:05 AM

If there's any way to loosen it, break it up and get it out of the bottle and then grind it to a fine powder. You will find that is much easier to redissolve- also, I would suggest WARM water, not hot as my own experiences with metasilicates have shown that to reduce coagulation issues.

Finally, if you add alkali (powdered drain cleaner?) to the solution that will likely help but may wreck if for your planned usage!

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6317
Good Answers: 229
#9

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 10:24 AM

My guess is that this is not simply a solid hydrate that just needs to be redissolved. It should be pretty easy to check though. Strain the solid material and mix with warm water. If it is sodium silicate, it will be readily soluble.

.

More likely is that only a small portion of the soluble material will dissolve easily in water. The remainder is silica and will require the addition of a strong base, like NaOH, to go back into solution.

.

Silica would be precipitated if the solution were acidified, possibly by contact with atmospheric CO2.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mindanao, Philippines
Posts: 254
Good Answers: 25
#12
In reply to #9

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 8:30 PM

The picture I'm getting is a procedure like the following:

Add water to the top of the bottle and seal. Wait a while.

Add caustic soda and seal. Wait a while.

--?Is there something I can add to absorb carbon dioxide, to prevent the caustic soda from becoming carbonate?

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 933
Good Answers: 80
#13
In reply to #12

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/07/2015 8:38 PM

If you are adding more caustic, just keep the bottle closed. The amount of CO2 absorbed will be minimal.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6317
Good Answers: 229
#15
In reply to #12

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/08/2015 1:52 AM

Rather than add to the top of the bottle, strain/filter the precipitate to separate. Seal the filtered water glass as air tight as reasonable. Attempt to recover what you can just from the solids that were removed. This way the bulk is not affected by your additions/dilutions/experiments.

.

You could store it under a blanket of dry n2 or something similar. Water glass is very inexpensive though. I doubt much expense for blanketing/protecting could be recouped in water glass saved. If you have a cheap ready source of n2 or argon, you could purge the top with a little before sealing the lid tight...and perhaps taping. Otherwise just make the container as airtight as possible and don't whisper many secrets into the bottle while it is open.

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mindanao, Philippines
Posts: 254
Good Answers: 25
#20
In reply to #15

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/08/2015 9:56 AM

Yike! Way beyond my capability or equipment. For one thing, I don't know what materials - other than the plastic bottle it came it - it's compatible with. Right now I hope that whatever I do will happen in the original bottle.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6317
Good Answers: 229
#21
In reply to #20

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/08/2015 12:09 PM

An additional plastic bottle is way beyond you equipment or capability? Attempt to match the type of plastic. Use appearance and physical traits as well as any recycling code. At worst you lose the small portion that was precipitated. Why dilute or alter the entire batch?

__________________
Eternal vigilance is the price of knowledge. - George Santayana
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 39108
Good Answers: 1541
#22
In reply to #20

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/08/2015 12:40 PM

Chemical Selected: Sodium SilicateShop this chemical

MaterialCompatibility
Acetal (Delrin®)C-Fair
AluminumA-Excellent
BrassD-Severe Effect
BronzeB-Good
Buna N (Nitrile )A-Excellent
Carbon graphiteA-Excellent
Carbon SteelA-Excellent
Carpenter 20A-Excellent
Cast ironB-Good
Ceramic Al2O3A-Excellent
ChemRaz (FFKM)A-Excellent
CopperB-Good
CPVCA2-Excellent
EPDMA-Excellent
EpoxyA-Excellent
Fluorocarbon (FKM)A-Excellent
Hastelloy-C®B-Good
HDPEA-Excellent
Hypalon®A-Excellent
Kalrez®A-Excellent
Kel-F®A-Excellent
LDPEA2-Excellent
Natural rubberA-Excellent
NeopreneA-Excellent
Noryl®A1-Excellent
NylonA1-Excellent
PolypropyleneA-Excellent
PolyurethaneB-Good
PPS (Ryton®)A-Excellent
PTFEA-Excellent
PVCA2-Excellent
PVDF (Kynar®)A-Excellent
SiliconeA-Excellent
Stainless Steel - 304A-Excellent
Stainless Steel - 316B-Good
TitaniumA-Excellent
Tygon®B-Good
Tygon® (E-3603)B-Good
Viton®
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 11465
Good Answers: 136
#27
In reply to #15

Re: Re-dissolving sodium silicate

11/23/2015 9:43 AM

We don't even know if pure water was used in the initial production of the water glass. We also do not know if the plastic bottle is permeable to carbon dioxide, or if polycarbonate, and the bottle has reacted with the strongly alkaline solution.

Suggestion (consensus): Decant the liquid portion, and see if that is fit for making your silicate based adhesive. If not, dispose of the whole material according to local ordinances, and start over. No need to pour good money on top of bad.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 39108
Good Answers: 1541
#11

Re: Re-Dissolving Sodium Silicate

11/07/2015 12:34 PM

Try the KISS approach.

Put some water in the jug and see what happens.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain, and now disconnecting as Little England and Wales (not too sure about Wales bit, either). Kettle's on.
Posts: 26443
Good Answers: 695
#18

Re: Re-Dissolving Sodium Silicate

11/08/2015 6:57 AM

Raise the temperature.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Stronger Than The Storm
Posts: 2366
Good Answers: 201
#23

Re: Re-Dissolving Sodium Silicate

11/08/2015 10:16 PM

Good complete questions get good clear and complete answers. One difficulty is you don't mention what type or grade of Sodium Silicate/Water Glass you have. There are numerous types, too many to list all here, and different forms. Add to that different dilutions that can be made with them and there is a great multitude of possibilities.

Crystalline silicates, such as one of the most popular formulations Sodium Metasilicate, are readily soluble in water but amorphous silicates are only slightly soluble in water http://www.pqcorp.com/Portals/1/docs/Metso%20Sodium%20Metasilicate,%202009.pdf

With time many of the crystalline compounds will begin to partially solidify.

http://pqcorp.com/Portals/1/lit/SodiumSilicates.pdf

http://www.solublesilicates.eu/docs/solsil_broch_1302.pdf The fact that you purchased this for foam experiments points to Sodium Metasilicate. To determine the best way to modify your material is by experimentation with small quantities. Take three small samples to use. In the first one, simply agitate/stir it to see if that dissolves the solid. In the second sample do the same agitation but add about 5% of water. In the third, do the same agitation and add a 20% solution of Sodium Hydroxide. Agitate them for the same length of time and see which worked best.

There are several other things that indicate it is Sodium Metasilicate. It originates as a solid and then is diluted with either water or other chemicals to form a liquid. The liquids have a variety of uses. Industrial cleaning agents for very hard to clean things.

As a well drilling mud (fluids) enhancer. http://www.pqcorp.com/portals/1/lit/bulletin_35-02.pdf

As a commercial replacement for Phosphates in strong soaps or household clothing soaps. This replaced the phosphates in soaps that were banned in the 70's and 80's (TSP, Tri-sodium phosphate). It has adhesive properties and is the material used to glue the wavy center ply of laminated cardboard (corrugated cardboard) to the outside surfaces.. In a very thick paste it can be used as a muffler or exhaust pipe caulking or glue. It is also used as a pH adjuster (increase) and defoamer is casein based adhesives (milk solids based). Cooling system "stop leak" for the cooling system of engines. There are too numerous uses for this group of chemicals. It is a large group and exponential possibilities of uses for them.

Good Luck, Old Salt

__________________
Any day on the green side of the grass is a GREAT DAY!, --- me +++++++++. I believe creativity is an inherent part of everyone. --- Kermit T. Frog
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mindanao, Philippines
Posts: 254
Good Answers: 25
#25
In reply to #23

Re: Re-Dissolving Sodium Silicate

11/09/2015 11:26 PM

I gave you the information that I had. Only the strength of the solution was marked.

Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Stronger Than The Storm
Posts: 2366
Good Answers: 201
#26
In reply to #25

Re: Re-Dissolving Sodium Silicate

11/09/2015 11:41 PM

You gave what you could so the answers are based on that. In general, when posters don't or can't give good and complete questions, the answers are comparable to what information was given. First sentence was not to be critical. Was only included to remind persons that better and complete questions (if possible) will get the most accurate and best answers. Sort of: "You get what you give".

As you can see from the variety of the answers and the differentness of them, what you gave generated a wide variety of answers. Some know a lot about the subject and some don't know much. For ten years we used it as one of many ingredients in casein based adhesives. You become very familiar, sometimes too familiar, with a product that way.

Good Luck, Old Salt

__________________
Any day on the green side of the grass is a GREAT DAY!, --- me +++++++++. I believe creativity is an inherent part of everyone. --- Kermit T. Frog
Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Stronger Than The Storm
Posts: 2366
Good Answers: 201
#24

Re: Re-Dissolving Sodium Silicate

11/09/2015 12:47 AM

Throw the darn thing out and start over.

A gallon only costs $37.95 http://www.sciencecompany.com/Sodium-Silicate-Solution-1-gal-P16464C670.aspx The Science Company

or $15.26 CQ Concepts http://cqconcepts.com/chem_sodiumsilicate.php

or for lab grade-- 40o-42o be $113.03 Thermo Fisher https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products/sodium-silicate-solution-40-42-be-technical-fisher-chemical-2/p-214445

It will be more costly for materials and time to try and rejuvenate the stuff you have. It will be especially costly if your attempts fail and you have to buy new material anyhow.

Good Luck, Old Salt

__________________
Any day on the green side of the grass is a GREAT DAY!, --- me +++++++++. I believe creativity is an inherent part of everyone. --- Kermit T. Frog
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mindanao, Philippines
Posts: 254
Good Answers: 25
#28
In reply to #24

Re: Re-Dissolving Sodium Silicate

11/23/2015 5:59 PM

By the time it gets here (southern Philippines) it is a good deal more expensive, and I will have waited two or three months for it. There is strong incentive to make what I have already usable. Added distilled water so far. No change. Will get caustic soda next.

Register to Reply
Guru
Safety - Hazmat - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Stronger Than The Storm
Posts: 2366
Good Answers: 201
#29
In reply to #28

Re: Re-Dissolving Sodium Silicate

11/23/2015 8:08 PM

Have you tried some alternate suppliers? Sodium meta-silicate is used in many other products. Perhaps one of the local users of it would sell you a small quantity (less than a 5 gal pail or a 55 gal drum). Detergent manufacturers and industrial cleaner manufactures use it in their products. We once purchased a concrete floor cleaner that went down a light green and turned clear when the concentration of it was no longer strong enough to clean. It was a powder that was applied to a wet floor. Manufactured by ZEP. We were cleaning up some nasty Mercury compounds and it always worked.

Another source would be a hardware store. It is available as a replacement for Tri-Sodium Phosphate, TSP, another strong cleanser. That caused problems with water pollutions. TSP was real nasty and a mean looking green with algae. I buy Sodium Meta-silicate for my personal use at a local hardware, not the big orange or blue boxes.

Also try a paint supply store. It is use for cleaning prior to painting.

Hope you find some. It still stands that it will be more expensive if you can't get useful and accurate analyticals from your sample.

Good Luck, Old Salt

__________________
Any day on the green side of the grass is a GREAT DAY!, --- me +++++++++. I believe creativity is an inherent part of everyone. --- Kermit T. Frog
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 29 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Andy Germany (1); Anonymous Poster (2); energyconversion (1); IdeaSmith (1); James Stewart (1); JNB (2); Legolaz (2); lyn (2); Mikerho (1); old salt (4); piolenc (7); PWSlack (1); SolarEagle (1); truth is not a compromise (3)

Previous in Forum: Sound and Vibration in Solids and Liquids   Next in Forum: SAE Stainless Steel

Advertisement