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A Little Turbo Curiosity

01/07/2016 12:11 PM

With so many car manufacturers heading in the direction of lower displacement turbo engines, I am curious to know peoples thought and experiences with turbo charged cars.

My first and only (for now) turbo car was a 2003 dodge SRT-4. I personaly love turbo engines. What I like most is the ability to get torque at just about any rpm. Yes gas mileage does suffer but sometimes I think its more the fact that I dont like laying off the boost and not the engine itself.

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#1

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 1:34 PM

What I like most is the ability to get torque at just about any rpm.

This is not what i have found. A turbo needs to "spool up" to get boost.

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#2

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 2:17 PM

I think you're thinking of a supercharger that gives boost even at low speed as it's driven by the crankshaft....but the turbo charger is slightly more efficient and produces better top end torque, but you get some turbo lag as it takes a few seconds for the turbo to spin up from idle...

The hot setup is having both....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMlZDrYUz6I

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#3

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 2:32 PM

Smaller turbos spin up much quicker but have limited boost so you don't get that 'rush' on the top end. VW typically uses pretty small turbos on their cars and they are quite drivable with no noticeable lag.

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#4

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 2:40 PM

The turbo in the dodge was a small turbo and didn't notice any lag. From what I have read alot of turbos in todays cars are twin scroll turbos which helps also to eleviate any turbo lag.

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#17
In reply to #4

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 3:59 AM

Twin-scroll turbos are able to give boost at lower rpms, but continue to give boost at higher rpms. They act like a twin turbo with only one turbocharger. Many companies make cars with twin-scroll turbos.

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#5

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 4:17 PM

For a while now I've had this crazy idea of building a supercharger with some trap door bypass manifold and an electric clutch (think AC compressor clutch) to turn the super charger off when it wasn't needed.

The trap door would react to supercharger pressure to open and close and bypass the supercharger impeller/lobes when they weren't spinning.

That cancels out the power loss of the supercharger when not needed.

Call me crazy.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 4:27 PM

I don't understand when would you not want the supercharger spinning.

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#7
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 4:50 PM

Turning a supercharger takes a finite (almost) amount of power no matter what the throttle setting of the engine is. It is, after all, a mechanical pump.

Discounting all-out racing, and pulling numbers out of the air (play on words?) say I need 250HP to accelerate into traffic on the freeway pulling my trailer. Let's also say that the supercharger sucks 50 HP to pump the extra charge into the engine.

That means I need to burn enough gas to have 300 HP output.

At speed, all I need is 75 HP to move the rig on level ground, but I'm making 125 HP to drive the truck AND the supercharger.

Why not turn it off then and just bypass all that and lose 10 HP to the bypass?

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 5:58 PM

Cheaper to just add some nitrous...

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#11
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 6:25 PM

There ya go--just rig up a chemical entertainment manifold in your dental office recreation room. Add some Toklas brownies, and everybody gets the giggles.

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#12
In reply to #5

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 9:31 PM

Lyn,

The system has been around for quite awhile now on street rods and I think the "trap door" is called a "waste gate" just as it is with a turbo-charger system.

The units I have seen in use and those I have played with work extremely well and much better than any turbo system but they are pricey.

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#14
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 9:56 PM

Not exactly the same thing.

Conventional wastegate systems allow higher rotor speeds to make more power at lower revs, and bleed off the excess boost at higher speeds, but don't allow electrically disconnecting the blower.

This would only work with belt driven non-race systems.

I've only done this in my feeble mind so maybe it's full of holes. (or wastegates)

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#27
In reply to #14

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 8:55 AM

I think you have a great idea. I see no reason it would not work well.

I know that Mercedes has been using these for a while and I think Toyota may also be.

Here is a link to a used assembly for a Mercedes C230.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/98-99-00-01-02-MERCEDES-BENZ-C230-KOMPRESSOR-SUPERCHARGER-ELECTRIC-CLUTCH-OEM-/321966831924?hash=item4af6b7f934:g:-ekAAOSwxN5WU8Vx&vxp=mtr

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#34
In reply to #27

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 12:25 PM

Yes, I looked at that.

I'm wondering how they get the air around the turbo lobs or impeller when it's not working?

Haven't found that yet. I'll have to look for cut-away dwg. later.

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#35
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 12:54 PM
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#37
In reply to #35

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 1:31 PM

WOW! Turbo alone $850.00.

Torbo with clutch $2,250.00.

Never mind.

Still curious about the bypass.

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#49
In reply to #37

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/12/2016 10:14 AM

I know of the Ford 351W which used a similar system for their smog pumps (A.I.R. injection). It was an air diverter system which would allow recirc exhaust to pump back into the intake tract via a port at the rear of the heads. It was mainly vacuum controlled with input from the idle control sensor. It kept the drag from the smog pump to a minimum unless the system was engaged.

My 1990 Bronco had it. It was a bitch to bypass...

The biggest issue I would see from bypassing a supercharger is that it is mounted directly on the intake in most scenarios, as in, in the air intake path. Lessening the burden on the scrolls would bypass all air into the engine.

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#52
In reply to #49

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/12/2016 4:19 PM

My 1967 Olds 98 had a smog pump - first time I ever saw one. I later found out that California required smog pumps on their cars from the 60's on - until modern smog systems cut pollution levels.

The smog pump on my 67 Olds fresh air was pumped through the belt driven pump, through a valve and into the cylinder heads. I owned the car when I was in Chicago and since it wasn't a required item, I removed it. For the holes in the cylinder head, I put a short piece of flared tubing and capped the threaded hole.

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#55
In reply to #52

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/13/2016 1:22 AM

Yep, that sounds about like what I inherited on my Bronco and then finished the job. Putting the system back together once I discovered what was going on would have cost thousands at the time.

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#58
In reply to #55

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/13/2016 1:26 PM

I've also heard that those pumps aren't very effective when the car gets old. I remember it's some sort of rotary pump with vanes that move in and out as the pump turns. Could be wrong, but that's what I remember it looked like when I took it apart - I was curious to see how it was made.

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#60
In reply to #37

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/18/2016 1:32 AM

You might find some parts at Detroit Diesel.When they were still making the 2 cycle diesels, The higher power models used a turbo(or 2,or more) in addition to the required blower. As the engine power and turbo boost would climb, the blower would become a restriction to the air flow. The answer was bypass valves to allow turbo boost to bypass the blower.

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#24
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 8:33 AM

LOL!!!

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#22
In reply to #5

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 6:24 AM

Lyn, look up the early MB SLK-230. They have an on demand supercharger.I test drove one and was impressed, but went for the MX5 NC with a turbo instead.

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#25
In reply to #22

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 8:41 AM

Thanks, I just did. They beat me to it.

I haven't had a chance to look at it in detail, but I will.

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#31
In reply to #25

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 11:02 AM

I believe its nothing more than an electric clutch. what activates it , i have no idea.

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#33
In reply to #31

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 12:22 PM

Looks like a typical clutch alright. Probably more heavy duty than your typical AC clutch for sure.

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#36
In reply to #31

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 1:04 PM

I own a C230 Kompressor and it doesn't have any special kind of electronic trap door. Look up Eaton M45.

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#8

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 4:51 PM

I have had turbo charged diesel Landcruisers for many years and find them far superior to the naturally aspirated ones both in power and economy. I presently own a 100 series and tow a caravan of about 3.5 tonne, a boat on the roof - all up weight of close to 7 tonnes, and it does it easily.

The Simpson desert in Australia is the largest sand dune desert in the world, it's a concentration of around 1100 parallel sand dunes oriented pretty much north to south and can be up to 200km long in places and reach heights of about 40 metres with angles of up to 40°. Some are spaced at no more than 200 metres apart and can be a real challenge for any vehicles as the sand is very fine grained rounded quartz which provides very little traction, and the short spacing allows for very little run up between dunes.

At the Eastern side, we have a sand dune called Big Red which stands at about 35 metres high, and it has become a national test of our vehicles' abilities to see who can get over it.

The run up is only about 100 metres across an, at times, soft clay pan, the base is incredibly potholed and soft due to many failed attempts, which makes attack at any significant speed lethal.

At my last visit a few years back my own and another 80 series landcruiser were the only turbo charged vehicles of approximately 30 that were present, and were the only diesels that made it over the top. Only a handful of petrol vehicles made the grade, and they had to start their run from way back on the next dune and were literally airborne after hitting the rough section at the base, the 2 turbo landcruisers did it from an almost standing start at the base which I believe is fine testament to turbo power.

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#9

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 5:41 PM

TURBOS - Great when they work, expensive when they don't.

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#13

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 9:46 PM

My experience with turbo-chargers is that they have a limited power band that suffers at the lower RPM range but perform pretty well at highway speeds and into the upper RPM range.

Manufacturers set the boost and waste gate performance curve to match the engine type and RPM curve.

When turbos are new they work ok however they are prone to inner-stage bearing failure, require regular competent maintenance, and are extremely expensive to repair or replace.

The damage occurs due to the vehicle owner shutting the engine off too soon and not allowing the turbo to spin down and cool off for a long enough period of time.

If you pay attention you will notice that over-the-road semi-trucks seldom pull off the road and immediately shut off the engine and instead let the engine idle for a few minutes before shutting it off.

The upper end cars such as Mercedes have a factory mounted lube oil accumulator that feeds/supplies the inner turbo bearing when the vehicle is shut off long enough to allow the turbo to spin down and cool off.

I suggest that anyone purchasing a turbo charged vehicle with the intention of keeping for extended mileage install an aftermarket lube oil accumulator system.

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#26
In reply to #13

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 8:44 AM

GA

A good post filled with all that information that almost anyone with a turbo should read and act on, but don't read and don't act = damaged Turbo, or at best, a shortened life span.

I have been driving Turbo diesels since about 1984, never lost a turbo, not once. It makes a Diesel fun to drive and very economical....generally speaking!!

Turbo petrol engines, the small ones with a Turbo for max BHP (I did read of a car recently with 300 BHP and 2 Liter capacity, I forget how many cylinders. WOW!!), are a different "kettle of fish"!!

Of the VW 1.4 Liter boosted petrol engines, quite economical around town, but once you get on the Autobahn and keep a heavy foot on the gas, they "drink" like crazy......

But if most of your driving is around town.....

A friend of mine who is a secondhand car dealer has stopped selling them, he complains that all too often he gets cars, where the engine is simply worn out at a little over 100,000 Kms....and he has to pay for a replacement engine. Citroens, VWs and some other makes.....

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 9:07 AM

Hello Andy that is usually found on cars and trucks that have not been maintained very well or at all. With a car like that you will find a person that thinks maintenance is just putting in fuel and change the oil once a year if at all. That is how I wind up with quite a few of my cars that have damaged engines. I replace them with fresh rebuilt engines that I don't have to worry about for a long time.

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#38
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 1:40 PM

Turbo petrol engines, the small ones with a Turbo for max BHP (I did read of a car recently with 300 BHP and 2 Liter capacity
That is common with the 2.0 4 banger engine in the NC MX5 with around 10 lbs boost. You really have to dink with the electronics and go to larger injectors with anything above that. I keep mine at 9 lbs boost and surprise many mustangs and cameros.

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 1:46 PM

I bet!! nice one!!

Do you know if the engines life is in any way affected?

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#40
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 2:23 PM

Dont know yet. I bought it with the turbo installed with 80K miles on it. I now have 107K and it runs very strong. Had to go to a better clutch and all i installed was a H2O/meth injection system. Do not even have a boost gage and the car is a daily driver. I have to watch it as in first and second if the boost kicks in i lose traction and that is with 17"/9" rims/40R/235 Toyo tires.

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#42
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 10:17 PM

My son put an insane turbo into his Honda S2000. At the tuner's dyno he had 600 rear wheel horsepower at 18 psi boost. He set up a fully programmable ECM and the fuel system to run only E85 so it doesn't detonate. He's trashed enough stock transmissions and rear ends, that he put in a Supra transmission, a double disk clutch, and a Mustang rear end. Now, if he could just keep tires on it.

He TIG welded up his own intake and exhaust systems to fit it all under the hood, intercooler and all. He's now building turbo cars for others on the side. Not bad for an almost 24 year old kid who barely graduated high school. His daily driver is a stock 1987 VW Jetta with 320K miles. Used to belong to the missus and me. We brought him home from the hospital in it in 1992.

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#43
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 10:33 PM

There's hope for the younger generation.

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#44
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 10:48 PM

It's amazing the things that boy can do when he puts HIS mind to it. We always knew he was very intelligent, but school was a waste of time to him (and his grades proved it).

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#47
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/12/2016 1:42 AM

That's impressive, since the S2000 has an 11.0 or 11.1 1:1 compression ratio. At 18psi boost, that's a lot of pressure in that little engine.

Is his engine an F20C (2.0L) or F22C1 (2.2L)? They're both great engines and they both rev like crazy. The F20C was the first gen Honda S2000 engine - I remember the first one I delivered. VTEC kicked in a 6K and red line to 8.9K! Not a lot of torque, but what a fun car to drive! The 2.2L red lined at 8.2K - still impressive, but the extra 700 rpm in the 2.0L made it a lot more fun to drive.

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#50
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/12/2016 12:35 PM

He has the 2.0 I believe. It's a 2010. I think the redline is 9K. He is learning all about the issues that arise when pushing an engine that hard. He has become quite good at replacing head gaskets. He's put in extra heavy duty studs and all that, but you learn that at those pressures even the slightest imperfection can have significant ramifications. He does a lot of research and studying. Then there was the time his engine swallowed a valve. He now has titanium exhaust valves and Inconel intake valves.

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#53
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/12/2016 4:24 PM

The 2.0L is in the older S2000's. They didn't make a 2010, so maybe 2009? That would be the 2.2L engine.

The car is pretty light, so adding some boost to the engine makes is a super fast car (silly fast). I can see why he can't keep traction on the rear tires!

Back in the day, we would put metal weights in the trunk of our cars (in those pockets behind the rear wheel wells). That would improve traction and give us better acceleration. Though too much isn't a good thing either!

Great to hear the younger gen is into cars! Most of them that I know are too caught up in the newest iPhone or video game!

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#54
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/12/2016 5:58 PM

I think you're right on the year. I'm probably thinking the year he bought the car used. It's probably an '05 or '06. Can't remember. He used to play video games a lot. Then he discovered cars (and motorcycles).

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#57
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/13/2016 1:23 PM

That's great to hear! Congratulations on raising a "normal" kid! Very tough in this day and age!

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#56
In reply to #50

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/13/2016 6:42 AM

Sir Robin Tell him he might try dead soft copper gaskets and stainless O-rings in both the head and block, it will almost stop head gasket failures depending on how much pressure he is building.We are running multi-layer steel gaskets and they are living (so far) at 35lbs of boost, any further and we will have to go to copper and O-rings.

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#41
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 4:53 PM

"Of the VW 1.4 Liter boosted petrol engines, quite economical around town, but once you get on the Autobahn and keep a heavy foot on the gas, they "drink" like crazy......"

It may use more fuel at higher speed, but if not for the turbo, that motor would need to be a lot larger to provide any sort of meaningful performance at any speed.

Turbos have enabled smaller, lighter engines to be used in larger, heavier vehicles than would otherwise be viable, these smaller engines have lower frictional, idling losses etc.

Logically - a turbo charger - if it were simply added to a standard injected engine with no other changes, would consume less fuel than before - at any driving speed. The injectors supply the same fuel quantity, the turbo simply forces more air into the cylinder, which improves burning efficiency.

In the early days of turbos, the construction materials were not up to the temperatures that were being created and so the fuel mixture was enriched to reduce exhaust temperatures and so protect the turbos somewhat, this destroyed fuel economy. Compression ratios were also reduced which affected low speed performance in non boost mode.

These days the materials are much better with some alloys handling around 2000°C, and better designs mean the devices are capable of spinning up to 200,000 RPM with less oil demand.

Computer technology - specifically knock sensors - coupled with direct injection now keep the fuel mix and timing within correct parameters at all rpm thus reducing detonation or preignition - the prime causes of early engine failure with these devices. Compression ratios have been increased which now allows better low speed performance.

Overall economy is generally around 10% better than for a similar size/weight vehicle with a larger non-turbo motor producing the same performance.

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#45
In reply to #41

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/09/2016 8:45 AM

Through my neigbour who has his own company selling 2nd hand cars, and me driving for him with picking up and delivering around Europe, I can agree that these cars are fun to drive, but even I see that (I am a fast driver, no time waster) that they are FAR thirstier than a similar/same car with a larger engine. I mentioned that before...You have to get the power from somewhere....

Its the experiences of my neighbour that I am drawing on, that he claims that these engines, probably when driven relatively often fast, but no real proof, and its not all of them, just simply too many of them to allow him to make a reasonable profit.

So he has completely stopped handling them. He even bought one new a few years ago to get more experience with one (a VW Touran 1.4L Turbo).

So I feel that his experiences are not only indicative possibly of a fundamental problem with such cars (several secondhand makes over several years), but are well worth mentioning on such a blog, as I feel that very few here will have been able to gather such experiences easily, unless also living in a country with no max speed limit.

If you think about it, these cars are the complete opposite of say US cars of 20 - 30 years ago and longer, big V-8 engines, not particularly powerful, that would handle a million miles or more, if the bodywork stayed together for that long....they just ran and ran and ran......even on what we might call today "poor quality oil"........

I was for many years an "advocate" of small, Turbo powered engines (before a major manufacturer made one I believe!), for the very reasons that you name. It seemed a clear cut way to get the best of both world's from an engine, though at the time (well over 30 years ago) I was not in a spare time or financial position to try it out, though I did plan which car and engine I would have done it to....UK Ford Capri 1.6 L..

But even today, with wonderful Full Synthetic oil available, that I have had many years of great experience with, its obvious that these small Turbo blown engines are not surviving regular fast driving in Germany at least, or are simply not built "strong" enough, to be driven as some drivers here drive them. They are simply "worn out" around 100,000 Kms (62,000 Miles), a major rebuild is often needed, or a complete block replacement.

I feel that this may not be true in such countries that have "blanket" maximum speed limits UK & USA for example, here in Germany, we are the last European country not having such Max limits.....I have driven, sometimes 3 or 4 hours at night, continually exceeding 100 MPH ALMOST ALL THAT TIME!! I have never had "slow" cars, nor in the UK before either! Even my company cars that I drove here could all easily exceed 100MPH. Normal business for us here....

So a further reason to post here I feel to explain the "ins and outs" of such engines as I have experienced....

But it seems that the experiences gained over the last 6 years or more have possibly allowed VW to make significant changes to such engines and they have recently announced a new motor of the type we are discussing here :-

New VW 1.4 Liter Petrol Engine

Let us hope that they have got the build recipe better this time......

BUT, we must not forget that although VW has a 2 year full guarantee on its cars (as do all car makes in Germany), THESE PROBLEMS I AM TALKING ABOUT SELDOM HAPPEN WITH MOST CARS WITHIN THAT 2 YEAR TIME SPAN......It tends to be cars around 4 years old or more up to now in my (and his!) limited experience!!!

Remember, average German mileage being around 15,000 Kms a year......This also must be fed into the equation.....

So it could easily be the second or even third owner who gets the problems......

I try and look at the whole scenario, not just a few individual points, it comes with age!!One of the few good points!!

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#80
In reply to #13

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

02/18/2016 1:35 PM

When the fire department I worked for purchased a new pair of fire trucks in 1986, they were 8V-92 TA Detroits. While they were new I went to the local Detroit dealer to purchase another pair of Turbo-Lube accumulators for them. Dealer said they would not warranty anything lubed by the Turbo-Lube, and might question any lubrication related claims. They produced the pages of their warranty that stated "no modifications or additions to the lubrication system". So we had 4 trucks very similar 8V-92 TAs, two with accumulators, and two without. Go figure.

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#15

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/07/2016 11:30 PM

I have been running turbo's for 20 years in single and duel set ups. With any turbo you are foolish to just shut down without a pump for a run on system after shut down to keep the oil from coking up in the bearings. But also most of the newer turbo set-ups use a roller bearing not a bushing as they did in the past, they tend to last a lot longer with a lot less maintenance. Also a lot of the systems today use a turbine wheel that grows as they spool up on boost so it pushes more air into the intake. It increases the AR (air ratio), almost like running a larger turbo at upper RPM's. And at lower RPM's the scroll/turbine wheel goes back to the smaller diameter less boost and better econ. All things considered a pretty efficient system as I have used them. First system was a 200 hp system on a six cylinder Honda motorcycle CBX, and current duel turbo system 1700 hp in my 1998 Mark IIIV, hopefully going to Ohio for land speed attempt next year if my health holds out and don't need neck surgery.

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#16
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 1:09 AM
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#23
In reply to #16

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 8:02 AM

Thank you looks just like mine, except for the grill mine happens to be chrome, but I think I like the blacked out look better. Thanks for the pic Solar Eagle.

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#32
In reply to #16

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 12:11 PM

Those cars had a lot of trouble with the suspension. They had air bags on all four corners and as you can expect, they leak after a short amount of time. The crazy thing about these cars is as expensive as they were new, a used one is worth less than a comparable Honda Civic with crank up windows - the same can be said about a Merc S Class.

When you watch the video, look at all the things broken or not working right.

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#18

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 4:27 AM

It is difficult to conceive <...lower displacement...> and <...dodge SRT-4...> in the same posting.

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#29
In reply to #18

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 10:08 AM

PWSlack it was only 2.4L which I guess is a little bigger than alot of modern tubo 4 cylinders as they are 2L or less.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 10:33 AM

I have seen engines as small as 1.2 liter running on dyno's with turbos making 1100-1200 hp for Indy cars. When they were running those types of set ups back quite a few years ago. I believe they were Renault design engines not sure of actual architecture. Bigger is not always better if you look at the new Ford Eco Boost that they are going to run at Le Mans as I understand it they are going with (stock) set-ups nothing exotic as far as blocks, heads,cams, or turbos. Supposedly just as you would buy it in a crate form, not sure if the computers will be stock or reprogrammed just for the altitude and track condition's but I think they would.

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#46
In reply to #29

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/10/2016 7:18 PM

<...2L or less...>

Exactly. <...lower displacement...> it ain't.

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#19

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 4:50 AM

Turbo's work well if properly matched to the engine and it's use, many ships use large turbocharged diesels and run at virtually constant speed, ideal for a simple matched turbo.

Cars and trucks by the nature of their use don't work as well across the rev range with a 'matched' turbo, with either lag (large turbo) or running out of steam (small turbo). Jaguar Land Rover use Ford Duratorq V6 diesel engines and to best match the use either have sequential small (to avoid lag) and large (so it isn't flow limited) turbo's or variable vane turbo's that can better match the delivery requirements of the engine.

Diesel engines limited rev range makes turbo's workable, a petrol engines much wider rev range is better served with a supercharger, though modern variable vane turbo's are much better than early attempts at turbocharging were and in small engined cars offer improved performance without the power loss of driving a supercharger, with trade off's depending on use/need, there's no such thing as a free lunch, but turbocharging comes close.

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#20

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 4:56 AM

My only two turbocharged car were a 1985 Volvo 760 turbo sedan and a 1996 Volvo 850R wagon.

My 760 ran for a little over 200K miles with the original turbo. I always let the turbo cool down after it was on the highway. The thing I liked about it was that it pulled hard through red-line. Gas mileage was only so-so with the car and it was hard to drive the car without getting into the turbo. The turbo was a Garrett T3 model - I hear that they're sought after to this day and it had a large intercooler up front. I really liked driving this car.

My 850R is one heck of a lot of fun to drive. It's a front wheel drive 5 cylinder 2.3L intercooled turbo. The car has a sport button, which allows the turbo to overboost for 10 seconds. It pulls hard in regular mode, but with the sport button pushed, it pulls really hard. There is definitely some turbo lag at lower rpms, but when the engine is over 2,000 rpms and I stomp on the gas, there is no turbo lag.

I still have my 850R and I can only guess I'm at 180K miles (odometer is broken). I think the car should be good for another 70K miles or so.

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#21

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity.

01/08/2016 5:05 AM

I forgot to mention gas mileage for my 850R. When I'm nice, it gets around 28 mpg on the highway - much better than my 760 Turbo. I feel that the 850R engine doesn't have to work so hard, so it's not into the turbo as much - unless my right foot tells it to.

And to compare it to my Mercedes C230 Kompressor (supercharged), you can definitely feel the turbo lag with the Volvos, but the Merc pulls strong just off idle. The Volvo engines pull hard to red-line and beyond. The Merc doesn't pull hard to red-line. It could be due to the C230 supercharger being a smaller unit.

Around town, I like the feeling of the C230. On country roads and the freeway, I prefer the Volvo 850R turbo.

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#48

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

01/12/2016 1:48 AM

How about the new Volvo 4 cylinder family. The new XC 90 comes with a 2.0L four that is supercharged and turbocharged - 316HP and 295 lb-ft of torque!

I haven't driven one yet, but my business partner has and he said it's impressive. I wonder how long the engine will last - it sure is a lot of power for a 2.0L engine.

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#51

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

01/12/2016 2:22 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBvQnmLmCcU

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#59

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

01/18/2016 12:04 AM

Compound turbos!

Expensive?, Yes

Fun?, Yes

Drivable?, OMG Yes, E.D. is not an issue when you really want to have some fun with turbos

Smaller turbo spools up at very low RPM allowing boost on demand, Bigger turbo is waiting in the wings for you to step on the LOUD pedal.

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#61

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

01/18/2016 2:17 AM

I very like to see this thread, very internest.

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#62

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

01/18/2016 4:13 AM

We are talking about Turbos here, a subject close to my heart, but I believe before Turbos there were superchargers and compressors, on some cars and planes in the 30's......

An acquaintance of mine, in the late 50's or it might have been early 60's, put one on a 1072cc, side valve Ford van, taken from Rolls Royce Merlin engine. It lasted several months before the engine was no more!

Boy was it fast. No idea about BHP or Torque.....rolling roads were thin on the ground in those days!!! Only 3 forward gears if I remember correctly!!

It looked like this, but not such a good paint job!!!:-

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#63
In reply to #62

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

01/19/2016 12:21 AM

A RR Merlin???? Each cylinder on it was bigger than that 1072CC. The amount of pressure could have been explosive.

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

01/19/2016 3:03 AM

To answer your post as far as I can, you are assuming a lot, and I'm sorry to say, but a lot of it is wrong or you did not think it through first. Let me help!

A supercharger/compressor is (as far as I remember!) driven from the engine crankshaft in some fashion, so that usually means via gears or pulleys or maybe a chain.

You can change the size of each pulley/gear/cog to provide the boost you require at the RPM you wish. I do have an idea that it was fairly linear (but prepared to be wrong of course!)....

Its not really an efficient method of increasing engine power, as for example a well setup Turbo system can be today, as it uses the developed engine power, not just the otherwise wasted, heat of the exhaust gases.....

Although he was boosting at some point higher than the engine could handle for long periods (obviously!), it was still well below that needed for a WW2 Spitfire Merlin engine.....which in some of its versions achieved more than 2000 HP I believe!

I do believe the engine was only a side valve 1172 cc, had only 3 main bearings and a cast iron crankshaft (pretty standard for the time!), a real weakness.....probably at least part of the reason it eventually gave up the ghost......

I really don't have a clue nowadays as to what boost pressure he used, I do know that he had a pressure gauge installed, and that is it!!! It was really impressive in that according to him, he could blow off 3.8 liter Jaguars.....sadly I was not in it at the time.....

He was a second world war aircraft engineer, who had a wonderful shop selling everything to do with radio control of aircraft and boats when I knew him.....A very clever guy......He must be LOOONNNG gone now or well over 100 years old......

I hope that I have in some way explained (from memory) a little of what went on.....he was before his time to my mind.....Happy new year.

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#65
In reply to #64

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/05/2016 1:05 AM

Sorry if I misunderstood some of that post. It just seemed to me that if the supercharger from the 27L RR engine could produce sufficient air for the engine to reach 3,000 rpm, then when fitted to an engine under 2 L, that the volume of air being forced into that poor little engine would produce some high pressures. Some good reading here. Take care.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/05/2016 2:06 AM

Maybe he had a pressure relief valve? Not exactly rocket science for a WW2 aircraft engineer?

I remember that eventually the motor gave up the ghost, but I do believe it was simply fun to drive for some months....at least!! Exactly how long I haven't a clue.....

Think about not only how delicate the motor was without the compressor, no synthetic oil either in those days, only Castrol R racing oil!!

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#67
In reply to #62

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/05/2016 4:58 AM

V belt driven superchargers were quite commonly fitted to all sorts of small engines, I've seen an A35 with one and recently an early series 2 land-rover, some tuners produced kits for home fitting in the 50's/60's in the UK.

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#68
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/05/2016 5:39 AM

I did not realise that it was almost "common" to do "then".....

Do you have any websites you can recommend?

An A35 with such a blower almost beggars belief!! WOW!!

Thanks for your interesting post.

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#69
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/05/2016 7:12 AM

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=supercharged+A35&view=detailv2&qpvt=supercharged+A35&id=22E19181E389A218AF52CB8FB1029DFAE5E0C08D&selectedindex=3&ccid=nSCG0p6r&simid=608024850095017926&thid=OIP.M9d2086d29eab55c789f5d9c60c2eca87o0&mode=overlay&first=1

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/05/2016 10:12 AM

Small thing, but you should learn how to post a link that only needs clicking on. Its easy to do, I can help if required.

Second, that is a mini that gets shown, not an A35! Its been wrongly labelled.....

I did find the A35 online, here is a picture, you can see the dramatic differences:-

Here is the mini that has been wrongly labelled:-

But still many thanks to alerting me to these builds.

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#71
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/05/2016 11:12 AM

Links are a PITA at times...

If they really wanted that mini to shift they could have bolted a BMW K1100 16 valve twin cam head on as well!

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#72
In reply to #70

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/08/2016 1:52 AM

OK, for those of us on the wrong side of the "pond", how about educating us on what an A35 is. Thanks.

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#73
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/08/2016 4:18 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_A35

My family ran a fleet of these, vans, countryman estates and saloons, none were supercharged thankfully, though one saloon had a ported and flowed head my father did for it with twin carbs.

The craziest one I came across had a V12 jag engine with auto box and narrowed jag IRS back end, built for drag racing but also road legal, fine on straight roads but didn't want to go round bends!

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#75
In reply to #73

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/08/2016 4:47 AM

Many years ago, I built a Ford Anglia (with a friend of mine), with an ex E-Type 3.8 Liter straight 6 engine. No blowers, just the original power output!! Whatever that was.....

We had really problems with getting the 3 x carbs, the steering and the pedals all together on the RH side for the UK, in the end we made it LH Drive, just had to rejig the exhaust a bit!!

Other builders managed to achieve it I remember, but I never saw how....different carbs maybe, weber side draft possibly....we had no money for that!!

They were fairly common for a time, some on the racetrack too, they were called a "Janglia"....I do not have any pictures, nor could google find any.....

You may know the body shell if you have seen any Harry Potter films.....but search on "Ford Anglia" if you want to see a picture. A 1960 model should do it!!

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#74
In reply to #72

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/08/2016 4:27 AM

Some examples for the car, front and back and the estate car and van.

Just do a google search on Austin A35, or look here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_A35

It was a great little reliable vehicle of the time, but not built for four US football players all at the same time I feel!!

I never had one, but it was also very economical, with a very widely used small engine that was seen in dozens of other cars, even the mini had them Austin Series A engine......

There was even a pickup version made, though I did not post a picture!!

I hope this answers your query!!

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#76
In reply to #74

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/18/2016 2:51 AM

For many years the Anglias were very popular for modified drag racing here.

This was the most common body style we saw being raced, although a later body style shows up occasionally. There are many fiberglass body parts made for this style.

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#77
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/18/2016 4:33 AM

I had a friend that had several of the Thames version body style. One was a 4 wheel drive on an early jeep frame with 38" tires the other was a drag car. Super Gas I think or Pro Comp. All that I remember about it was that it was a very scary ride. It had a very healthy bid block Ford 514Ci. Ford based on a 460 block with Dove Engineering heads. It was just plane vicious on launch and at half track it sometimes decided it wanted to be in the other lane, there for a while I thought that thing was an old fuel altered the way it drove. Duke,

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#78
In reply to #76

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/18/2016 4:45 AM

WOW!!

Great infos thanks.

I don't know if I ever mentioned it, but my Father had a "Ford Prefect", bought new in 1952 (guessing, or 53 maybe!), the slightly upmarket "brother" of the Anglia, not the one on the "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy".....but that is where the name came from!!

Ford_Prefect

There is also a picture of the 1939 "Tourer", open top version, as well if you look down carefully on the LH side of the web page....Pretty!!!

My Father's car looked like this one, with integrated headlights in the front wings, "fully aerodynamic" (for the day!!):-

This one is even the same colour, but ours had the Number:- YMY 568!!!

We traveled all over the UK as a Family, with my Brother sleeping on the back seat. I even remember eating a banana and becoming car sick on the way to Cornwall once, but I managed to get the window down in time!! I was reading a book, having only recently discovered just how much fun reading could be!!

It was a long drive as there were no motorways (freeways?) in those days!! I believe with stops were were taking 12 or more hours in those days. It was not even 300 miles......

The wipers used a vacuum system from the engine, on long uphill bits, the vacuum got used up and no wiper movement. A downshift and letting the gas pedal "spring up" would give a few more seconds of vision, hopefully!!

I was maybe 7 or 8 y.o..

Was one ever made for drag racing?

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#79
In reply to #78

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/18/2016 1:21 PM

These are the two other body styles I have seen used . The first posted picture by far the most common English Ford body style used. Followed by the lower one here, then the upper.

Most commonly used in classes that allow many modifications to the car, and in the classes that allow high displacement to weight. Most of these classes are also divided into supercharged or not.

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#81
In reply to #79

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/18/2016 1:53 PM

OK, I found this picture on the web, but never seen one in person.


(© 2003 - http://www.eurodragster.com/ )

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#83
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Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/18/2016 3:36 PM

Thats an early 60s Anglia...

Looks a bit faster than our "Janglia" from then......we only had around 280 BHP I believe!!

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#82
In reply to #79

Re: A Little Turbo Curiosity

02/18/2016 3:33 PM

OMG!!!!

Many thanks.....

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