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Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/16/2016 8:24 AM

The pressure I cc of LN2 encapsulated at -196dC will rise to on warming to ambient T is c3,000bar. About half experienced in a gun barrel. If 10cc of LN2 the capsule could be made of SS and not be bulky. But what materials could best be used to make a 50 Kg tank, burst strength 125%. Titanium, PEEK, CCTs, Graphene, Kevlar, 'spiders web' some or all laminated???

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#1

Re: Containing LN2 at ambient T

01/16/2016 11:13 AM

I don't think you are qualified even to ask such questions.

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#2

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/16/2016 12:29 PM
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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/16/2016 11:00 PM

Huh? That's water, not nitrogen.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/17/2016 2:01 AM

Yeah more interesting than nitrogen....

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/18/2016 5:21 AM

That's much more interesting.

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#14
In reply to #2

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

02/06/2016 10:23 AM

Yes. it would have been more appropriate to show the Wolfram triple point for nitrogen. And more helpful. The question is not idle. If you care to go to pat2pdf and put8556133 in the box you will see patented a 'piston-valve manifold' or BrucePVM shown enabling LN2 as an aerosol propellant. The LN2 cylinder needs to be no more than c10ml vol, so SS is a good material. The BrucePVM is the core technology for a whole new load of things using nitrogen to produce energy - not as from 1903 to Dearman from cryogenic - which doesn't cut the mustard - but from LN2 contained at 43,000 psi (3,000bar)tank with a burst strength of 6,500bar) - rather more than peak pressure in a high powered rifle barrel. It can be done, but the cylinder/container bulk restricts tank size not impossibly but to less than I'd like. f anyone in this group thinks they can help we would all have good reason to thank you. Application concerns technology to avoid fossil fuels entirely - which is half the answer, the other is to recapture carbon from the atmosphere (about 350bn tons) to bring the carbon content (natural and man made) back below what nature can re-cycle each year. As matters stand global warming is now accelerating from 0.1dC pa from c1dC above global mean and we will reach 2dC within 10 years. Paris CO21 simply premised itself on the 2000-2011 data when there was a lull in rise as oceans cooled to accommodate the accelerating glacial ice melt. In fact, with rising ground air temperature, the glacial effect and rising temperature ground effect more or less cancelled out. That ended in 2011, since when temperature is rising ( and accelerating each year) at x 10 the pre-2011 rate, and that was at x 10 the 1950 - 1980 rate. No science is needed to grasp this. Just look at NASA GISS LOTI & Keeling. Its all there. Warming of 2014 over 2015 was by 0.13dC NASA or by 0.16dC NOOA. If that goes on we breach 1.5dC at say 0.15dC pa, from today's 1dC, in 6 years time. We need not speculate on what 2dC above means. Mongolia at 2.1dC is 20% desertification with migration running at 65%. In a NASA Columbia 2011 Paper Kyoto was described with its 450ppm and 2dC as a 'receipt for disaster'. And so it proved to be. Paris COP is yet more disastrous. By its negligence and global mis-direction it has put us in the queue to join those 477 vertebrates that went extinct since 1900. What needs to be understood is that, except PV which is part of the solution, renewables are irrelevant. They could replace oil, coal,and gas 100% tomorrow morning and still the temperature will rise in response to the c70 - 100ppm carbon in the atmosphere above the c300- 330ppm nature used to re-cycle 100% each year (man made and natural). Most troubling is that warming is not only entirely out of control but a new accelerant has started to impact by way of methane being increasingly released from globally warming permafrost. If we fail to intervene it may well be that no-one will be here to see the dawn by as early 2050 - but we have already begun to lose out civilisation from migration of those fleeing drought and starvation, and it is just the beginning of what is already progressively happening! The problem is desertification, from the prairies of the USA to Chile to Mongolia to the Canterbury plain in South Island New Zealand. People flee starvation and thirst. It is deeply troubling that 70% of Americans are amongst 'the none so blind' as to be global warming deniers - and it is near unbelievable that a man with the intelligence of the man who won Iowa could allow himself to be so ill-informed. We don't use satellite technology because it doesn't give us answers which agree with observed data on the ground. This man is saying " I believe that the temperature in my yard is not what the thermometer tells me it is but what the satellite tells me it! I make no comment on politics just that the man he beat didn't know about the satellites! We are in very real trouble and I hope IHS team people may help.

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#4

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/17/2016 1:09 AM

LN2 has an expansion ratio of around 1:600 (YOU can google this) so on warming to ambient the pressure can only rise to around 600 Barg.

Vessels aren't designed to hold both phases, you either use a vacuum insulated tank to hold liquid, either at ambient pressure (dewar) with the boil off venting continuously to atmosphere or you use a vacuum insulated low pressure vessel (around 3 to 15 Barg) and protect it with a PSV set at design pressure to vent the boil off.

if you want to use it as a gas then you vapourise it before use.

Dewars

http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/Liquid_Nitrogen_Storage_Dewar_50_L_122_day_static_hold_time/EW-03773-61

Tanks

http://www.ohsuk.com/

or you store it as a gas in a regular gas cylinder.

Is this a homework question about embrittlement of materials at low temperatures? or do you have another reason?

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#6

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/17/2016 2:14 AM

this is virtually the same question you asked a year ago?

What are you trying to do?

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#10
In reply to #6

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/18/2016 5:24 AM

Well spotted. Whatever it is, it clearly isn't urgent!

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#11
In reply to #6

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/18/2016 12:36 PM

No not same question. Then I was looking for what pressure to which I understand the answer to be 43,000 psi or c3000bar. What I am trying to do is specify a cylinder which will contain LN2 at ambient temperature. Many uses one of which you may like to look at ,<pat2pdf.org> 8556133. SS will do well enough for c10ml aerosol LN2 cylinders. I need nearer 50 Kg/litres capacity - but SS vessel would have to have inches thick walls and weigh tons.

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/19/2016 11:35 PM

Seems like you have one answer already. If you need to store 50 liters and you have a container that will store 10 ml, then one option is 5000 10ml containers.

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#8

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/18/2016 5:19 AM

50kg of nitrogen at what temperature and pressure?

  • 50kg at ambient temperature and pressure could be contained with a +25% safety margin in a balloon structure made of thin rubber and would occupy a volume of around 40m3 (accurate data tables not currently to hand), for example.
  • It is not necessary to store nitrogen at high pressures at ambient temperatures. Nearly all industrial installations store it as a liquid in cryogenic storage tanks, as this has been found to be the most economic way to do so, particularly as it is delivered as a liquid from vehicles exactly where it is needed. No commercial supplier would want to bother with a delivery of such a small quantity.
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#12
In reply to #8

Re: Containing LN2 at Ambient T

01/18/2016 12:42 PM

Yes I know about cryogenic LN2. What i need to know more about is what no-one seems to have much addressed. Nitrogen as a SCF. Its containment. It is the pressure in which useful one can usefully store energy.

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