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Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/08/2016 9:47 AM

its exceedingly easy to bash so many things about China. they haven't quite mastered the bridge building or foundation thing just yet.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-financial-building-project-collapsed-2015-7#ooid=picWNmdjrXgYGUnQw188GD2AhOREKMew

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#1

Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 10:06 AM

Not that I"m a fan of our (USA's) own government's procurement process, but for the defense contracts we bid on the government chooses from proposals that are technically compliant, not just the lowest bidder.

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#12
In reply to #1

Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/09/2016 1:30 AM

By the time you fill out all the paperwork, you can sell US$600 toilet seats to the army, and still go broke.

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#2

Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 11:03 AM

Yeah, that great wall they built will never last...

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#3

Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 11:08 AM

I'd say they have it mastered, but just ignore good construction practices.

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#4

Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 11:36 AM

Looking at the video that wall had a lot of soil that looked liquefied poor in behind it. The footage taken in August one of their rainiest months. Flooding may have been the root cause. Wall bowed as it fell in. The concrete was not full set. No wall is made to be a dam.

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#5

Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 12:07 PM

You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

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#6
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Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 12:44 PM

You lie down with accountants, you get failed engineering projects.

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#10
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Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 2:32 PM

Did somebody just re-name corruption an "accounting error"?

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#11
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Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 3:33 PM

No...

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#7

Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 1:41 PM

Soooo a retaining wall accidentally collapses on a site in China, what's the big deal?

How many people here realise this sort of thing happens in the building industry (more regularly than you might think). A few years ago down here a massive pre-fab wall of a partially erected building fell over because of wind loading due to an unexpectedly large storm.

With all the building going on in China (and it is a LOT) it doesn't surprise me that this sort of thing happens (statistically speaking). If this were America or down here but with the same number of building projects China is seeing I would expect to see the same sort of problems as well, local regulations or building practices regardless.

Unlike software or electronics there are some things in civil engineering that cannot be fully accounted for (such as the weather, the ground, etc), so lets not jump on the "Chinese construction practices are poor" or "accountants are bad" band wagon just yet.

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#8
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Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 1:55 PM

I have a feeling Moosie would have an opposing opinion on the condition of the soil/ground. I'll give you a pass on many weather related accidents but not soil testing and prep where tons of weight of back fill and a pour are concerned. what I see isn't an accident, it couldn't even support itself much less a load. I saw failure and incompetency.and yes that happens everywhere included the US.

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#9
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Re: is awarding low bid a deal?

02/08/2016 2:07 PM

Statistically even incompetency can be measured and like fools no one is safe or immune to it.

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#13

Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 3:25 AM

China bashing in my experience is a US thing, I havent come across so nearly as much in other countries. Actually it led me to be more of a US basher as I tended to feel that all was fair in love and war in the US as long as the US was on top - tables turn and suddenly people who dont want full on red blooded dog eat dog style capitalism are no longer damn Commies but honest blue collar Joes just struggling for a piece of the great American pie.

I don't mind people's politics so much as their hypocrasy - if you want full on no holds barred dog eat dog capitalism then accept the consequences, get up, dust yourself off and go compete - what I dont like is people often using racist comments like "sl****y eyed lathe" on engineering forums just because it annoys them that China has undercut their privilidged position.

Sorry to sound jaundiced, the Brits were the same when they lost empire, people who consider themselves "ontop" can get very irritable when someone else comes up behind them.

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#15
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 9:45 AM

I'm not sure where you grew up but your assumptions about how Americans think about all foreigners is just off the mark. but to your point to this day I know of Jews who will never buy a German car. most Americans couldn't care less where something was produced they just want quality at a fair price. I have a number of 2X and 3X shirts in a drawer I keep clothes that don't fit, I guess in China an American medium is an extra large to them.

based on your extreme bias I'll guess you're in Scandinavia, am I right?

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#16
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 10:41 AM

I dont remember saying anything about how I perceive Americans think about all foreigners. It is nice if people who disagree with you can summarise or quote what you said accurately. I my comments focused on sour grapes in the US regards China and racist comments I have seen on engineering forums which I interpret as "lets rubbish the Chinese and their products" because actually we are quite scared of them and really have a bit of an issue with our number one spot being challenged.

I fail to see why US posters are interested in rubbishing China, if they are not a force to be contended with, if they cannot make a decent nut and bolt or make a quality wall then why not ignore them?

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#17
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 12:33 PM

"because actually we are quite scared of them"

Speak for yourself, not all of us! "We" is a rather large group unless it is qualified somehow.

As far as "your experience" goes, I doubt that anybody here really cares what that is.

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#19
In reply to #15

Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 2:44 PM

To aid your point. I bought 2 belts a week ago. Didn't even look where they were made until I got home. I just examined the leather closely for apparent sturdiness. Once home, I realized had quite a bit better buckle than the other, and for $6 more, it should. The better one was made in China, and not particularly cheap. On the cheap one, the dual prongs of the buckle (I like double pronged buckles) are so loose it takes a very well coordinated effort with your fingers to get both to hit their respective holes at once. (you don't see this problem in the store) That one was made in Mexico. Oh no - here comes the Mexican bashing critics.

Remember Japan bashing in the 1950's? I do. This shifts around depending on where the labor is lowest. Low cost labor is going to produce inferior products, and under cut American companies on price. Let the labor become skilled and the quality rise, so does the price. No-one bashes Japan now, but they also don't buy every day items made there either, as they now cost more than American made.

In between we had Mexican bashing and Korean bashing. It is based on labor costs and quality of products.

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#20
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 2:59 PM

when I was a kid in the 60's the phase that was said with disgust quite often was...."cheap plastic Japanese junk". by the 80's their electronics were some of their best.

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#21
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 3:12 PM

When I was 6 years old, a neighbor we were close to, bought a very nicely built and detailed toy version of a Chris Craft. It was wooden with a nice varnished finish and a C cell driven motor. She gave it to me as a present and I immediately spied the made in Japan sticker and proclaimed that said boat was obviously a piece of junk. My Mother never let me forget that insult as long as she lived. I wish I had that boat now - it would bring a fine price in an antique store.Yes - Japan bashing lived in the 1950's.

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#22
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 3:23 PM

I would be interested to know how you came to that personal belief at such an early age. Was it the classic "observation of parents or friends opinions" or was it perhaps media driven at the time in America (local toy ads bashing foreign toy quality)?

Of course I could be reading too much into this and it was simply a case of personal experience (you broke all your Japanese toys), but then....how would you know they were made in Japan?

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#23
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 3:42 PM

No - that was exactly the same thing as the "China bashing" suggested in an earlier post by another person. EVERYONE was concerned they were going to lose their jobs to Japanese companies, because they were under cutting prices so much. My Grandfather worked for a textile manufacturing company and an Aunt for a dress manufacturer, so I was saturated with the phrase "another piece of Japanese junk," when shopping. It is truly amazing, considering the negative attitude to Japanese goods at the time, that the "Datsun" and Sony became marquee brands like they did in the late 1960's. (Nissan had a bad name with American GI's so they called themselves Datsun at the time)

I still have a Japanese wrench from my Father's 99 cent "junk tool" bin he had at his hardware store. Yes - that is what customers and employees called the tool display. Lasted 55 years now, so junk was not correct.

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#24
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 3:47 PM

like this?

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#27
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 4:02 PM

Yes - yes - that is it! Beautiful job of building, and at the time, probably hand built too.

The thing that finally did it in was the wood. The finish was before urethane was common and I did use it in water. Eventually the water got to the wood and the finish started peeling off. Still running the last time I used it, but my Mother saw it was time for it to go, and some where in the 1960's it just vanished.

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#14

Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 6:19 AM

They have not mastered rigorous ongoing construction audits and inspections with concrete samples etc.

That allows substandard builds. In China inspectors are often bribed to sign off

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#18

Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 12:39 PM
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#25
In reply to #18

Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 3:53 PM

Is that the same American company (as in USA) that was responsible for the Bhopal disaster?

BAB.

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#26
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 3:55 PM

the same

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#28
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 4:48 PM
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#29

Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 6:58 PM

Whatta Flustercluck! That's the Commie system for ya. No doubt by now the Geotechnical Engineer and Party Hacks associated with this have already been lined up against a wall and shot in the back of the head. Just saying....

They should have used caissions and/or steel piles.

Undoubtedly a poor geotechnical investigation and possibly poor evaluation of the testing results + shoddy construction practices.

That's my take on it....

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#30
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 7:03 PM

about time you showed up to validate me

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#31
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 7:08 PM

You're very welcome! Sorry for the delay, but it takes me roughly an hour to drive home from work..... I is tardy.

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#32
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 7:17 PM

no problem I thought you would cringe or spit up watching the clip

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#33
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Re: Is Awarding Low Bid a Deal?

02/09/2016 7:27 PM

Actually, I SPARFed orange juice up int through my sinuses...

OUCH, that stung....

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