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We Never Learn

03/29/2016 4:16 PM

When gas prices soared, car makers came out with less HP engines in an attempt to save gas. Now that gas is much more cheap, the car makers are making greater HP engines and faster cars. That neutralizes the savings in gas. When gas prices again go up, the car makers will again seek ways to make their cars less gas guzzling. The net result of all this roller coasting supply and demand is no change in the supply of gas. Instead of making faster and more powerful cars, we should be concentrating on better fuel mileage. Apparently the gasoline refiners have to sell more gas when the price is low by urging the car makers to produce cars that use more gas. They do that by making engines more powerful and make cars go faster. All this manipulating does nothing in the war on global warming or the supply of an energy resource.

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#1

Re: We never learn

03/29/2016 4:49 PM

That's the supply side.

When gas is cheap, people drive more because gas is cheap.

People drive more, more gas is sold.

When the average fuel bill is cut by 50%, consumers have more money to spend, so they buy a new car. But, since gas is so cheap, why not buy that 400HP double trick smooth super car. Why not? Gas is cheap so they can afford it.

We're old and were raised back when a new pair of shoes only came when school started and we needed them because we couldn't go to school barefooted.

Times have changed. But people still want fast cars.

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#2

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 5:11 PM

I disagree.

As Volkswagon recently showed us we can have fast and powerful vehicles that get above average fuel economy. We just have to tell the EPA to pound sand with their latest rule sets.

To be honest those of us who work around vehicles have known that for years.

Now for buying larger vehicles I have yet to ever meet a person who was in a serious accident that wished they had been driving a smaller vehicle. I know if I am going to get into a head-on collision at 70 MPH I definitely want to be the guy driving the 80,000+ pound semi rig not the Prius.

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#7
In reply to #2

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 6:01 PM

VW is the last manufacturer I would use as an example of good fuel economy given the way they rigged the emissions software. They still engineer and build a good car ... but they are morally bankrupt.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 6:32 PM

Of course you would never exceed the posted speed limit now, would you?

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 6:47 PM

What's a speed limit? Of course I do. We all do. What they did is quite different. They deceived their customers and many of them bought a car that they thought was a "greener" choice.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 6:55 PM

And many are like me that look entirely at driveability and fuel mileage to which point when the VW emissions cheating came up flat out said you will pry the steering wheel out of my cold dead hands before I will let you 'fix it' and take away my driving performance and fuel efficiency to meet a mandate I do not agree with.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 7:00 PM

"We all do". Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

And what 'harm' came to these people who thought they were driving a 'greener' car?

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 8:11 PM

Bruised egos and bite of humble pie.

For some getting caught with a hooker in a closet at the church where they were holding services for their dead mother would be less of a personal hit.

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#32
In reply to #9

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 10:16 AM

" "greener" choice. "

Hog wash they bought the car for the fuel saving.

I doubt very few thought about how green it is.

Just how much cash they could keep in their pockets at the end of the work week.

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#47
In reply to #32

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 9:21 AM

"Hog wash they bought the car for the fuel saving.

I doubt very few thought about how green it is.

Just how much cash they could keep in their pockets at the end of the work week."

Some people can make the 'right' choice for the 'wrong' reason.

Just because they were looking to save only one green and end up saving two different greens is no reason to consider their help worthless. That would be like bulldozing a completed Habitat for Humanity house just because one of the volunteers who helped build it wasn't a devout Christian.

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#50
In reply to #32

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 11:15 AM

If it was all about fuel saving they could have done much better....no I'd say performance and handling, reliability and other considerations are at play here....

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#33
In reply to #9

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 11:45 AM

<...We...> Please define this word. Any attempt to involve this username within the definition renders <...We all do...> a falsehood.

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#44
In reply to #8

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 8:11 AM

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!

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#3

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 5:18 PM

Cafe standards say your statement is a crock

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 5:55 PM

Or was it a gator?

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#14
In reply to #6

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 8:42 PM

Caiman (or is it Cayman??), that's getting a bit silly.

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 9:16 PM

This is silly . . .

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#18
In reply to #6

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 1:18 AM

Crock=noun; "an earthenware pot or jar."

e.g.: crock of gator stew, in Cayman island, prepared by VW's 'chef Mattias' !!

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#65
In reply to #6

Re: We Never Learn

04/05/2016 6:59 AM

Croc-a-gator?

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#4

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 5:20 PM

Don't the car manufacturers make cars based somewhat on what the customers are looking for?

When gas prices go up, people not only drive less, but also those who are ready to purchase a vehicle look for cars with better gas mileage, thus creating a demand.

The manufacturers are responding to the increase in demand for the fuel efficient cars.

The opposite occurs when gas prices fall...manufacturers respond to the decrease in demand for fuel efficient cars by making less of them and the increase in demand for the less efficient ones by making more of them.

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#35
In reply to #4

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 2:17 PM

True, car manufacturers make cars based on what the customer wants, but they also rely on advertising to sell the public what they think they want. It's the classic case of creating a desire and selling them what they didn't know they wanted. The old advertising slogan; "find a need and fill it" is now "create a need and fill it".

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#5

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 5:36 PM

I buy the kind of car I want, period.

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#25
In reply to #5

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 4:52 AM

Just the kind the manufacturers want you to buy.

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#13

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 8:14 PM

So now we are "on war with global warming".

I give up! Who wins?

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#16
In reply to #13

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 8:59 PM

The planet always wins. Mother Nature is patient and plays the long game of life better than anything else.

Just ask the Dinosaurs and Neaderthal man and a few billion other species who went before us and came in second place when they went up against Mother Nature.

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#20
In reply to #16

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 1:27 AM

Going green is going against Mother nature ?!!!

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#31
In reply to #20

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 10:04 AM

No, he's saying that doing 'business as usual' is going against Mother Nature.

Let's be frank here, when we ecological types are shouting "Save the Planet!" we know we as a species cannot destroy this world and turn it into another asteroid belt. The Earth was here before us, it'll be here after every trace of us has vanished, and that includes the Great Pyramids. What we mean with the mnemonic of "Save the Planet!" is "Save the planet's ability to keep *US* alive and healthy!"

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#39
In reply to #31

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 11:58 PM

well, the propaganda catch phrase has always been ".. let's save the planet for Future Generations" anyway. So, I guess you take is pretty spot on.

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#46
In reply to #39

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 9:15 AM

The basic concept does make sense. Updating it based on recent scientific discoveries,we should use something like "Let's try to keep this planet habitable for as long as we can, we don't have any spare worlds we can get to yet."

Once we've got multiple planets, we can have one be the "habitation planet" where we live and love and raise our kids, and make it connected nodes of suburbia, with all this virgin, untouched Nature to explore and enjoy, one be the "manufacturing planet" where all the production is done under 'factory domes' which protect the product (and the workers) from the inhospitable nightmare conditions created by the unregulated dumping of pollutants and waste products into what used to be the environment. We could even have one to be the 'resource planet,' where everything useful is siphoned off and/or strip mined up to supply the raw materials. (we could also use comets and asteroids for raw materials, but, given the nature of some people, we'll NEED to give them an 'Earthlike planet' to despoil, just so they'll agree to leave Eden-2 pristine for living in.

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#54
In reply to #31

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 6:37 PM

I see it as more than that. It's not about keeping the planet as whole tolerable for ourselves but more keeping the presently nice places to live the way they are opposed to letting it shift the nice areas to places where others live or where few presently live.

The problem is that the climate of places like California has shifted to something they find less pleasing 'therefore the whole world has gotten worse' yet the places like the upper midwest and regions of Canada and countless other unmentioned areas of the world that have low population density have seen a lot of favorable improvements in the same time frames 'don't count because it's just a long-term local weather anomaly we/they are experiencing.'

That's what I see behind this.

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#57
In reply to #54

Re: We Never Learn

04/01/2016 9:45 AM

Well, in California, they found nice land for grapes and almonds and other 'water intensive' crops, and wet up vast vineyards/orchards.

When the droughts started to hit, they set up the water rationing laws to try control things, but they left a provision that private wells on private land would not, and in fact COULD NOT be metered or regulated by the State. They did this to 'protect' the farmers from losing their lucrative crop and crashing the state economy.

Then the bottled water companies came in bought some private land, set up private wells on that private land, and started shipping California water all across the country, for a HUGE profit.

Now we know than practically all of those 'deep wells' the farmers and bottlers were tapping into was not part of the 'normal' water cycle for the state, but were in fact 'fossil' aquafirs, water deposits that had been 'locked away' from the normal cycles, and unable to replenish like normal groundwater.

Part of California's problem is poor resource management, bad laws passed with good intentions. I'm not saying it's entirely the fault of the citizens, or even the lawmakers, just that the laws passed ended up doing more harm than good.

In the Midwest, we saw what was happening there, and learned from their mistakes, implementing the Great Lakes Charter and later the Great Lakes Compact to protect our water supply.

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#15

Re: We Never Learn

03/29/2016 8:57 PM

Anybody who drove muscle cars back in the day will tell you there is a big difference in efficiency...You could smell the gas...I had a Chevelle that averaged about 11 mpg, now I have a Mustang that averages nearly twice that, and I believe is faster...mainly because of the tires I think...We were all being poisoned by the lead...and this was before catalytic converters...Yeah it's not all just about mileage...the cars are better...

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/07/08/2014-chevy-corvette-stingray-good-for-up-to-30-mpg/

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#19
In reply to #15

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 1:26 AM

"..Yeah it's not all just about mileage..."
Did you want 'em to spray gas at in the tail pipe just so you can smell 'de gas'.....that's what F1 fans complained about too, that the new generation F1 cars "don't sound right"Sorta re-defines who deserves to win the race - car with most 'authentic engine sound'??

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 1:53 AM

Well that's what makes an experience a good one, the right sounds, the right smells, the right companions, the right, other stuff.....part of why I bought my car is that it sounds right....the fact that it gets good mileage as well is just an added bonus...

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#24
In reply to #15

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 4:35 AM

I don't understand you guys. I am looking to buy a new car and the diesel fuel consumption of the five seat family sized SUV estate car I am considering is 73mpg (the petrol equivalent is 56mpg). Car makers lie to us about fuel consumption figures but the way I drive I would realistically expect to get 65/52mpg. The new high mpg diesels need to be run fast and hot regularly to burn out the gunk that accumulates, and my annual mileage is not as high as it used to be, so I may go back to petrol, live with the lower fuel consumption and save £1500 ($2200) off the list price. Fuel in the UK is very highly taxed £4.5/gal ($6.50/gal but our gallons are slightly bigger than yours) and we pay a road tax on top for cars with high emissions. So I am only looking at cars that have low enough emissions to avoid the £120 ($175) annual road tax that I pay now. The 10 year old clunker diesel that I drive now gets 45mpg, 22 mpg is a joke at our fuel prices.

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 5:30 AM

Diesel engine has a thermodynamic efficiency better than that of gasoline engine - simply by the fact that it's compression ratio is higher.

Compression Ratio-Thermal Efficiency, relationship - linear.

, and if diesel is cheaper than gas, that'd be a double bonus.

High pressure common rail is mature now, i.e.: efficiency And reliability is even better than before.

Gas Direct Injection in gasoline engines isn't exactly as great as initially touted to be.

Mainly due to gas-air mixing time available between actual start of injection and firing.

MPI does it better.

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 7:59 AM

Diesel fuel also has a higher energy density (energy content per comparable mass or volume) than gasoline. Bunker C is higher yet, but I wouldn't go there.

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#38
In reply to #28

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 11:44 PM

JNB, could you verify that, please, especially Bunker C having higher energy density than gasoline.

Definitely doesn't add up, since energy density has, more or less, everything to do with number of H in a chain, and Bunker C doesn't have much.

Otherwise, we'd have coal with a much higher energy rating than Uranium!

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#40
In reply to #38

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 12:00 AM

From this, unit is MJ/Kg:

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#43
In reply to #40

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 7:19 AM

Sort of correct but in typical applications many of those fuels get bought by the measured volume not weight.

Energy content of common fuels

and

Fuel Oil Energies.

Bunker C by weight is lower than gasoline but on a gallons to gallons measure it's way higher at 151 - 156 KBTU Vs 110 - 126 KBTU and Hydrogen comes in at a dismal ~35 KBTU per gallon.

Hydrogen Energy

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#49
In reply to #43

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 9:37 AM

Also, since it takes more (non-renewable, at this time) energy to produce 'fuel hydrogen' than one gets by using it as fuel, Hydrogen should be considered an 'energy currency' rather than an energy source.

Even if we DO manage to get useful solar-powered 'water crackers' to provide us with our H2 while using no non-renewable power source, Hyrogen should still be considered more as a way to 'store' the solar energy collected.

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#27
In reply to #24

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 7:55 AM

2 things to note- what the UK would consider a family size estate car is more like a midsized car in North America (plus we don't have near your diesel options, unfortunately ); also VERY important, over this side of the pond mpg is normally stated in US gallons, which are 3.785L versus 4.55L for the Imperial gallon. At least everyone can agree on the mile!!

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#29
In reply to #27

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 8:44 AM

Correction on the mile. 1 Swedish mile is 10Km (6.213miles). And cars are advertised for sale on Swedish miles on the clock and not Km.

Might be handy to know if you go to Sweden and drive to Norway. It is not far in Swedish miles but it will take 5 hrs to drive the 400km road.

It is only 40 Swedish miles away.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 8:48 AM

At least everyone can agree on the mile!!

I stand corrected!

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#34
In reply to #24

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 12:10 PM

22 mpg doesn't sound bad to me. I drive a Ram 2500 pick-up with a diesel engine which gets 17 mpg around town and 20 mpg on the highway.

It's safe however, as others have pointed out.

Also, I doubt that anything that gets 73 mpg could tow a 10,000 pound boat 350 miles in 6 hours.

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#36
In reply to #24

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 6:29 PM

Yeah I bet that's a sub 2 liter TDI with no power accessories, works for some people...

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 8:14 PM

Personally I am still keeping my eye out for older all mechanical injected diesel sedan.

Non brand specific though but VW would be nice given their similar views as mine of emission standards! (Cheat em' if you got em'!)

Easier to tweak and modify that way plus there's a good chance it won't have too many issues with running on a 50/40/10 mix of diesel fuel, used oil and E85 to really get those cost per mile numbers down!

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#41
In reply to #37

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 12:46 AM

North Dakota chapter Smokers...

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#48
In reply to #41

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 9:31 AM

Smokers? Those are the people who modify their vehicles to run on coal, right?

I understand both messages they're trying to get across(1)(2)(3), and I respect their right to share their message. However, I would like to reply with a message of my own: "Just because we CAN do something does not always mean we SHOULD do something."

Notes:

  1. "I am using satire to point out what I see as the futility of 'saving the environment.'"
  2. "Heh, heh, look how offensive and obnoxious I can be, with an extra side order of noxious!"
  3. Driving the vehicle in a scheduled demonstration or protest, or a parade, gives the first message. Making it your 'general use, drive everywhere' car gives the second message.
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#52
In reply to #48

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 2:24 PM
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#55
In reply to #52

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 7:42 PM

That's not it, he's talking about gasifiers.....I don't think so, it's those diesel smokers....those are called "coal rollers"...

Wood gas...

Coal roller...

http://www.musclehorsepower.com/top-ten-insane-diesel-cars-that-prove-rolling-coal-is-crazy/

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#58
In reply to #55

Re: We Never Learn

04/01/2016 10:04 AM

That first photo looks like a car that would be constantly pulled over by 'the Revenuers' under suspicion of being a rolling moonshine still.

The other two, well, just look at them, they're pumping out more horrible black smoke that even the worst Mac Truck I've ever seen on the roads.

From the very article you linked to:

"Wikipedia explains "Rolling coal" as: the practice of intentionally disabling the Clean Burn Programming of a computer controlled diesel engine, so that the vehicle can emit an under-aspirated sooty exhaust that visibly pollutes the air."

Doing this as a protest or as a satiric statement is one thing, but the video in the article you linked to shows these people showing them off, as if this were a GOOD thing. Reveling in such activity is so offensive, I - I can't even think of an analogy for the 'something worse,' my mind refuses to complete the concept, probably out of a sense of self preservation. These 'Rolling Coal' parties are worse than telling The Aristocrats joke IN CHURCH at your only daughter's wedding. (Look it up if you don't know the joke; it's also known as 'the dirtiest/most disgusting joke in the world.')

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: We Never Learn

04/01/2016 4:40 PM

Let's look at the mechanics of this a bit.

Bulk of that discharge is pure carbon - not carbon dioxide.

i.e.: the worst that could do is to float around a bit, and settle on the ground.

That's it.

Can't be Fukushima bad, right ?

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#61
In reply to #60

Re: We Never Learn

04/01/2016 7:31 PM

As with typical environmentalism if you can see it, it's bad.

If you can't see it, it's worse.

And if it can't be easily distinguished from natural sources it's likely to kill us all and therefore must be regulated and taxed to no end.

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: We Never Learn

04/02/2016 6:04 AM

A 30 year old tree is cut, and used as fuel, i.e.: to be used as wood chips for a joint of a powerplant in some faraway location in EU, or as firewood for warmth.

A young sapling is planted in its place.

But does anyone realize that by doing this, 30 years of tree growth Time has just been reset with the cutting of that tree ?

So................

And what's so wrong with using coal(coke, i.e.: 'engineered' coal!!) instead ?

That 30 year old tree would continue 'neutralizing' carbon dioxide released from that lump of coal, and then some.

Instead, a 30 year old tree's contribution is cut short - at its prime.

How is this justified ?

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#63
In reply to #60

Re: We Never Learn

04/04/2016 2:31 PM

"i.e.: the worst that could do is to float around a bit, and settle on the ground."

No, the WORST that could to is float around until it gets inhaled, and then cause Black Lung disease. And that's just the visible portion of the smoke, incompletely burned gasloline contains carbon monoxide and several other noxious gasses.

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#66
In reply to #63

Re: We Never Learn

04/08/2016 12:55 AM

Coal-Roller is powered by diesel motor

Your worst case scenario described above is just that - worst case !

Average situation is more likely what I have described earlier, i.e.: settle on ground.

Black Lung happens when one is locked up in a coal hell-hole 24/7.

Chance inhalation of Coal-Roller carbon nano-particles merely makes the body behave as it would react to any typical anti-venom, vaccine type injection, i.e.: wraps it up in body goo, and dumps it

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#64
In reply to #37

Re: We Never Learn

04/05/2016 12:06 AM

I recommend Mercedes 240D or pre 85 300D or TD

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#22

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 1:55 AM

Maybe this is more a thing in the US of A, here in Japan it is a tax thing, bigger engine means more tax.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: We Never Learn

03/30/2016 2:02 AM

Well we have higher insurance...but not much.....and gas guzzler tax....the faster a car is the more it seems to cost...I guess that's why so many people make their cars faster aftermarket...

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#42

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 2:59 AM

This is good justification for a level of taxation to be introduced onto the material so as to stabilise the market and encourage greater efficiency. However, this is not an Engineering issue.

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#45

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 8:56 AM
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#56
In reply to #45

Re: We Never Learn

04/01/2016 12:46 AM

"..Under it, automakers would be required to produce a fleet that cuts carbon dioxide emissions by six billion tons..."No, automakers manufacture vehicles - based on government set regulation/standards.Onus is on the owners and operators, and perhaps government, to decide on how much these equipment is used, which would, by default, determine how much waste gas is generated.Perceived moral obligation is Not legally binding, and these guys received bailout money from gov'mint, not tax payer.It's the government which is answerable to the tax payers, not Ford or GM or Tarzan. Again, consumer decides, where he buys his next rig from, which, based on authors amazing logic, is based on buyer's hormone induced mood-swing.
Man, these people are worse than teenage school girls in love

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#51

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 12:51 PM

The point I was trying to make was; car makers improve gas mileage, then turn around and introduce bigger gas guzzlers to the market. It's like they take one step forward and 1-1/2 steps back. Their net gain seems to be zero.

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#53
In reply to #51

Re: We Never Learn

03/31/2016 3:38 PM

Performance and efficiency aren't mutually exclusive, in theory or practice.

Fleet wide fuel economy and performance (as indicated by 0-60 times and likely by several other measures) have steadily improved over time. It makes sense too. A more efficient engine makes more power from the same fuel burn. A lighter car can be both quicker and less thirsty.

Considering ever increasing handicaps of more stringent emission standards (like NOx) and increased weight related to new impact safety requirements, the fact that fleet wide efficiency and performance has increase deserves at least a little recognition as progress.

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#59
In reply to #53

Re: We Never Learn

04/01/2016 1:59 PM
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