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Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/01/2016 11:58 AM

Dear all structural engineers,

this pipe is running about 10 ft horizontally and then bends down and continues vertically downward for about 10 ft. there is a pipe support up there where the pipes changes direction. how to make sure the support is enough for seismic events? the pipe size is 4".

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#1

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 12:09 PM

The answer will be found in the appropriate codes and regulations for your area, wherever that may be.

If you do not have these in your possession, you should probably not be working in civil engineering.

The Civil Reference room is down the hall at CR8.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 12:58 PM

i'm using ASCE 7 CH 13: SEISMIC DESIGN REQUIREMENTS FOR NONSTRUCTURAL COMPONENTS.

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#5
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 1:07 PM
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#16
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 2:51 AM

There is NO NEED TO SHOUT! :-(

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#27
In reply to #16

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 11:01 AM

lol. i just copied and pasted the title which happened to be in uppercase. :)

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#6
In reply to #1

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 1:31 PM

in the code, it just explains how to estimate seismic design force which i have done and have fount it to be 0.6 wp. wp is the weight of the pipe. what now?

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#7
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 1:40 PM

ICC-ES AC156 - Special Seismic Certification

California Seismic Testing | AC-156 Testing | NTS

I'm beginning to understand the spelling of your name. You, apparently ain't one.

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#8
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 1:50 PM

That would take you to 13.4...according to your calculations of weight and force, the component anchorage should satisfy these requirements....

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 2:00 PM

Do a tensile strength test on the supports (you installed made of chicle').

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#28
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 11:17 AM

my support is not a trapeze or any other type of hanging support since the piping is outside. i'm actually welding an angle iron to the nearby wall and extending it below the pipe. with a hold down. i'm sure the angle iron withstands the seismic but how to show it in calculations. a free body diagram of the angle iron piece? with the pipe weight and seismic force from the top and reactions where it's welded to the wall? what about using a software to analyze and actually design it?

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#31
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 11:36 AM

So did you do a Google search for this software you want? Have you actually considered what happens if a seismic event ruptures a weld on this steam pipe, or the energy contained within it?

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#36
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 2:52 PM

sap2000/etabs may be. i have both. the angle iron is not going to be welded on the pipe. it will be welded to the wall at one end and the other end extends under the pipe. and a clamp will hold down the pipe on the angle.

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#37
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 2:57 PM

Unless it is designed in a way to articulate motion in two (or three) dimensions with respect to the pipe, it will be causing the failure rather than stopping it.

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#15
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 12:36 AM

You've got to be shikidding me! The seismic design force is just one component acting on that pipe and its support(s); have you considered the weight of the fluid, the movement of the fluid, the multiple three-dimensional forces due to differential expansion, due to motion of the remainder of the piping, the angle of the support relative to the centerline of the pipe, where is the support relative to the change in direction of the pipe, its relative deflection, the type of support (solid, sliding, spring loaded), etc., etc.

Find yourself a piping designer experienced in seismic design to guide you.

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#23
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 8:26 AM

I give RAM a GA.

What parameters RAM has listed is an excellent starting point. Yes, you must include the weight of of the fluid within the pipe....both static and dynamic loadings!

Also, once you have determined the forces acting on the pipe, and hence the pipe support, start sketching Free Body Diagram(s) denoting the conditions, including an eccentricities, etc.. From there is should become evident what type of loadings you will have acting on the pipe support: Bi-direction, tension or compression, shear, and quite possibly torsional.

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#29
In reply to #15

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 11:23 AM

good points. yes, i have. steam is running through the pipe. so no worries about weight or expansion. i need to support the pipe to a nearby wall using an angle iron.

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#30
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 11:33 AM

Unless steam is running through the pipe 24/7, with no maintenance ever, you certainly DO need to worry about expansion!

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#32
In reply to #29

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 11:37 AM

Tell us, what is an angle iron?

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#33
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 11:45 AM

One it is not: It is not angel iron.

I have witnessed first hand, a boiler tube failure (due to poor corrosion control on the tube exterior, coupled with position of this tube at the highest thermal stress point on the boiler) that took angle iron (2" on each side, 3/8" thick) and wad it up like a hair ribbon. Is that your "seismic" bracing mr. inginir?

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#48
In reply to #32

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 8:59 PM

A device for pressing the wrinkles out of intersecting clothing parts.

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#50
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 10:36 PM

So you think steam is always light fluffy stuff? Apparently you've never looked at the steam tables, where you would learn that 100ºC superheated steam at 1bar has a density of 0.58966kg/m³, while supercritical steam at 2,000°C and 250bar has a density of 23.565kg/m³; i.e, the weight of the steam has increased by a factor of 40x, and let's not forget the 2.3% increase in the overall length of the run.

I sure hope that you're not working in a power plant or even worse, a nuclear facility.

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#51
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/03/2016 11:25 AM

what i meant was that change in the pressure, density, temperature, ... of the steam running through this pipe is not an issue. apparently you have never studied about gasses to know their mass and weight doesn't change if you increase their temperature. the tables you mentioned, i know enough about them. they are about steams flowing into the pipe. but in this pipe, i have a definite amount of steam whose mass/weight won't change. it is not connected to some sort of a source to supply more steam to help increase the density. the mass doesn't change since the speed is not comparable to the speed of light and the weight doesn't change because the distance from the center of the earth doesn't change. the temperature increase/decrease is not noticeable either. i think when we answer to a thread we should do it based on the information provided not questioning the information itself or judging people. anyway, thanks for the comment.

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#52
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/03/2016 11:40 AM

You, who are clueless, are telliing RMA he doesn't know anything about gasses??

That's really rich.

If I were you, I'd quit CR4 and do some research on YOUR problem. It's not OUR problem, it's YOURS!!!!!!!

Go and DO YOUR OWN WORK.

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#55
In reply to #52

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/03/2016 6:37 PM

"Apparently you've never looked at the steam tables"

i just wanted to use his own language. as far as MY PROBLEM/YOUR PROBLEM, this is the place we discuss a problem no matter whose problem is it. apparently you don't posses an engineering mind because any problem is an engineer's problem. plus, let everyone speak for himself. RAM doesn't need a spokesperson. i'm sure you don't have a more useful thing to do rather than biting people's feet. let them pass. do your own work. mind your own business. if you don't want to help or CAN'T help just pass.

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#53
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/03/2016 12:28 PM

"...i think when we answer to a thread we should do it based on the information provided not questioning the information itself or judging people. anyway, thanks for the comment..." Quite the opposite, the more information provided the better the answer, had you stated the steam conditions, I wouldn't have raised the point in an effort to make you aware of something that you may have missed.

Most of us here believe in defense in depth, not designing in a vacuum.

"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid." Ben Franklin

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#54
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/03/2016 1:02 PM

Fantastic quote by the way.

As to his steam line, surely inginir (since he knows what he nose) realizes that a steam line not properly supported (in the event of some unknown pipe failure) is illegal in its first condition, not to mention any seismic event. Yes, steam lines can be supported correctly to meet conditions of steam service and seismic zone. Most engineers have been educated in several aspects of steam safety including (1) over-pressure controls, (2) over temperature controls, (3) water circuit controls, (4) the blast radius for a boiler of a given size and pressure, (5) the invisible danger of a close encounter with leaking superheated steam, and (6) the forces on the end of a ruptured steam pipe being supplied for full unlimited flow at pressure X and temperature Y.

Could this be someone's first rodeo? Sure seems like it.

I could find an emoticon right handily that expressed what "beaker" looks like after his lab goes "poof".

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#2

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 12:44 PM

Supports are generally required every 4' or so, but regulations vary from place to place....You need to determine which professional governing body is followed for your location....Flex pipe sections may be required for active fault zones....

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#3

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 12:49 PM

the area is nevada.

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#10
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 2:18 PM

Ok place your bet....

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#11
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 3:16 PM

In a word - help. That is what you need. You will fail miserably, because even if you got the force estimate correct for a quake that result in a material failure, it does not mean that you could restrict the force in a real situation to some level below what you tested at. Leave this to the professionals, that deal with quake prone areas all the time.

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#12
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 3:27 PM

You'll need this:

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#13
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 5:54 PM

On another topic, 50th and West Loop 289 in Lubbock is under 3 feet of water.

Are you dry?

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#14
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/01/2016 11:53 PM

At least he had a working computer and an internet connection at 12:15 my time... wherever he was.

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#22
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 7:09 AM

taking 10 days off for vacation, going to Amarillo,TX tomorrow. Northwest of the major flooding down there, saw on the news that Amarillo just got the edge of the storm.

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#24
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 9:05 AM

Not dry, but no webbing between toes -- yet. We have had five inches rain this week at my house. No sprinkler system action this week, but the lawn mower needs to get warmed up. Pulled up a lot of "lake" weed yesterday in the back yard, easy pickings. I ran out of Weed B Gone on that section.

Last week we had the east neighbor's lawn man mowing, and our dogs were raising H.E.double hockey sticks, then it got quiet about the time my wife went out to check on the situation. She saw our Pugle dog raised up at the fence, leaning on one paw as if to beg for "another" treat. The next day this dog nearly died, to the point that her feet were getting cold. The vet said it was "poison". I let the neighbor lady know about this and she was sympathetic, but I told to her to let him know that if anything else comes over the fence, it will be returned followed by hot lead.

Back on topic about the storm, that thing "parked" over most of NW US 84 (Clovis Highway) stretching from Lubbock to Muleshoe (Donkey Slipper) for about four hours. Most of the NW portions of Lubbock were flooded the worst. All this rain is making havoc all down the Brazos River basin, and cows and horses are needing higher ground.

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#25
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 10:05 AM

Sorry to hear about your dog. And your neighbor's attitude. Or, maybe it was the lawn guy?

The weather is getting crazier every year. First, all the lakes in Texas dry up and now the country's flooded.

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#26
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 10:38 AM

Key point about flooding is reduced ground cover and soil permeability during and after drought. This leads to increased run off, at least that is the propaganda.

The only way around that is through better flood control engineering, more reservoirs, and much improved range management, to ensure at least some ground cover, soil tilthe remains. The production of hydrophilic soil gums that is possible in actively farmed land is much easier than on range lands.

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#17
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 3:02 AM

...and the point of revealing that to the forum is what, please?

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#38
In reply to #17

Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 3:01 PM

because they asked about location and the fact that codes vary.

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#21
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Re: calculation to show a certain pipe support is enough for seismic events

06/02/2016 4:29 AM

http://earthquaketrack.com/r/nevada/recent

Pretty active I think, you better get a good answer!

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#18

Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 3:07 AM

So the plant gets built. And there is a seismic event. Buildings get damaged, the roof falls in and plant gets wrecked. "Bu&&er that - my piping support is till standing!" Is that any way to carry on <rhetorical question - NNTR>?

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#19
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 4:17 AM

till still

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#20

Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 4:27 AM

How do you make sure the building is safe in case of a seismic event?

Or ask the experts:

http://www.mason-industries.com/masonind/_doc/pdf/plsysdes.pdf

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/seismic_restraints/seismic-eng-guidelines/SEG-12.pdf

With other words use the correct pipe support!

Good luck: as in you will need it!

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#49
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 9:20 PM

Really OT?

You are kidding yourself!

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#34

Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 1:53 PM

Seismic mounting systems should allow for movement...

http://www.clementsupport.com/seismic-overview.html

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#35
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 1:56 PM

Yes, I suppose a completely rigid system when the material supporting the supports is moving could lead to shear forces enough to shear things off, pretty much instantly.

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#39
In reply to #34

Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 3:07 PM

interesting! could you please give a reference for the idea that "seismic mounting systems should allow for movement".

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#40
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 3:17 PM

If we do all of your work for you, what is left for you, except to cash an unearned paycheck?

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#42
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 3:54 PM

Gosh, I thought that is what most of us were already doing?

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#46
In reply to #42

Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 5:18 PM

sarcasm doesn't build, calculations do.

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#43
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 4:09 PM

Besides, Injinir is walking down the corridor of "I do not know that I do not know". It can a corridor of lessons well learned if not at the expense of the safety of those around him. On the other hand, it could lead to a totally new corridor, called "I don't know where these deputies are taking me".

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#44
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 5:14 PM

i just don't think it's correct. you probably think so, now!

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#41
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 3:43 PM

SE included a link in post #34 below the photo. Good bet, try that one.

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#45
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 5:16 PM

the link is a commercial. it doesn't say in the link that a seismic bracing should allow movement!

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#47
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

06/02/2016 7:37 PM

The link is to Clement support services, pipe hanger specialists...If you notice they offer to do the design and CAD drawings for your project...Clement Support Services offers a full line of OSHPD pre-approved seismic bracing products for the mechanical, plumbing and electrical industries...If you take a look at the pipe hangers or rigid mounting assembly, they either offer free movement or break away structure within the hanger assembly....More samples...

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#56

Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

08/01/2016 7:27 PM

OK........., but first, in what seismic zone is the pipe located?...

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#57

Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

08/09/2016 9:13 PM

Technically, isn't it unethical for you to work as a structural engineer, if you are not actually a structural engineer, already?...

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#58
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

08/10/2016 12:19 PM

When has that ever stopped any one?

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#59
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

08/10/2016 12:34 PM

Right! My degrees are in Physics and Education, but the company has been calling me 'Engineer' for almost 20 years. What counts is whether one is capable of performing the assigned tasks without endangering anyone.

That last caveat becomes MUCH more important when the task involves the safety of others, as in plumbing steam pipes... Then it becomes important to have the training and licenses to do the job.

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#60
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

08/10/2016 1:07 PM

Most of my home projects, if I would have known what was going to be involved, I never would have started it.

But I'm glad I did start them otherwise, I'd be posting as an anonymous guest here

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#61
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

08/10/2016 1:21 PM

I never said I was an engineer, but I have stayed in Holiday Inns.

I am a physical chemist by degree, a farmer by upbringing, and a southern engineer by design.

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#62
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

08/12/2016 5:44 PM

Irrespective of who is how good at what, it still takes a final ''stamp'' to get it approved and make it official, by clarifying the liability for (damages)...

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#63
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

08/12/2016 5:47 PM

If you do not have an appropriate (stamp), then (hire) someone who does...

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#64
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

08/12/2016 6:43 PM

Fortunately for me, nothing I do directly needs a stamp. Anything that does, gets it from someone with a different set of qualifications, and there are several of those...

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#65
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Re: Calculation To Show A Certain Pipe Support Is Enough For Seismic Events

08/17/2016 12:35 PM

You, and Jerry ''moonbeam'' ?...

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