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Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

06/30/2016 6:59 PM

Well, we all knew it would come to tears.

Headline: U.S. Opens Investigation Into Tesla After Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/u-s-opens-investigation-tesla-after-fatal-crash-autopilot-n602011

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#1

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

06/30/2016 7:50 PM

Tesla said, "that Autopilot reduces driver workload and results in a statistically significant improvement in safety when compared to purely manual driving." That is, right up to the point that the driver dies.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

06/30/2016 8:20 PM

The same can be said for a human driver. The better bet is to follow the statistics, and augment them by bring alert oneself.

Is Tesla's system "visual", radar, or both? One would think that radar would detect metal obstacles, even if weird lighting conditions make visual detection difficult.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

06/30/2016 8:46 PM

That is ridiculous.

The "statistics" say "first known fatality in just over 130 million miles where Autopilot was activated."

"Autopilot" implies that a driver is not required.

The same cannot be said for a human driver!

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

06/30/2016 10:34 PM

This 130 million miles... All driven with no operator with a foot near the brake pedal?

Does 'Autopolot activated' mean the same thing as Autopilot in autonomous control?

Statistics can be skewed by an entity wishing to sway opinion. Just sayin.

(New smart phone... Don't quite have the hang of it yet)

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

06/30/2016 10:53 PM

If you buy a $100K car and the salesman tells you it has autopilot you're going to expect it to drive itself. (You being the majority of people who buy these cars, pilots and most engineers excepted)

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#6

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 12:49 AM

Don't confuse auto-pilot with autonomous....what these cars have is just driver-assist technology....These technologies don't make a car crash-proof, just less likely in some instances...

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#7

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 9:01 AM

wish I had posted a thread on this

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#45
In reply to #7

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/15/2016 4:04 PM

...wish I had responded to a thread on this.....

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#8

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 9:13 AM

Obviously the driver's at fault.

Just like every incident involving these overpriced, over hyped death traps being foisted on naive, live crash test dummies.

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#9

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 9:37 AM

The reality is that autonomous vehicles will never be perfectly safe. Machines fail just as humans fail. The danger is that we're getting more and more dependent and ceding more and more responsibility to machines.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 9:41 AM

I think they'll be safe but not yet. at this point it's still a BETA assist technology and not ready for prime time, Tesla owners like to feel they're special and cool. sorry you still need to pay attention

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#11

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 10:25 AM

I read that he was traveling at a very high rate of speed and watching a Harry Potter movie. Going under the trailer at high speed he probably lost his head. With these driving habits having zero pain, zero fear and no innocent people hurt is probably the best outcome possible.

There should be recommendations and pressure from the insurance industry that cars not be built with an auto pilot system that can be used above the speed limit.

Telling people that they need to stay alert and be responsible over the auto pilot is a nice but worthless thing to say. About the only law, rule or regulation that the general population seems to latch on to is the myth that cell phones cause gas stations to blow up.

(For any non-engineers reading this: to reenter your car for your cell phone can cause a build up of static electricity. Discharging that static electricity when you touch the gas pump can cause a spark and ignite gas vapors. Talking on the cell phone does not cause the gas station to blow up).

Computer driven cars will never be 100% safe. People driven cars will never be 100% safe. We are getting close to (or may be at the point) where computer driver cars will be safer than people driven cars.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 10:40 AM

will we ever get to a point where cowardly ANONs grow balls?

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#15
In reply to #12

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 2:03 PM

Ehhhhhh, nope.

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#13

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 10:44 AM

The root of this is that Musk is from the virtual reality world of software engineering where they routinely expect their customers to do their R&D for them and the worst that can happen is a few computers get totalled in keyboard rages.

When you bring that "I'll make the customer pay for my mistakes" attitude into the real world, this is what you get.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 10:59 AM

I don't agree but Musk has proven to rush things too soon. he has a lot of ideas, maybe too many at times

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/01/2016 9:02 PM

Tesla said on Thursday that the white trailer was not easy for the car's cameras to distinguish from the bright Florida afternoon sky.

Then why the F are they risking customer's lives if they haven't done the R&D properly themselves?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20160701/OEM11/160709985/dvd-player-found-in-tesla-car-in-florida-crash-authorities-say?cciid=email-autonews-daily

Tesla said in a statement Friday, "Autopilot is by far the most advanced driver assistance system on the road, but it does not turn a Tesla into an autonomous vehicle and does not allow the driver to abdicate responsibility."

He can't have it both ways, he calls it Autopilot but says you have to stay in control.

Autopilot comes from the aviation world and it means "hands off - let the Autopilot do the work while you check your Facebook or text your gf" because that's exactly what happens …. http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/26/airliner.flyby/

Everyone in the world associates Autopilot to mean "hands free", and it's Tesla's fault for marketing the system under the word "Autopilot".

It's not a get out to then say after the guy was found to be watching a movie or whatever to say, "no really, we didn't mean you to take it literally and use it as an autopilot, you still need to drive it like normal."

If I was a lawyer I'd be beating a path to that dead guy's door right now because by Tesla's own words quoted above, calling that system an Autopilot is a blatantly misleading deceit that directly implies the commonly known use of the word, which is to drive "hands free".

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 12:07 AM

Back in 1958, Chrysler put their Auto-Pilot speed control system into their cars. I owned a 1964 Chrysler New Yorker when I was in college and it had the Auto-Pilot system. I don't think people believe that Autopilot means without driver interaction, but I could be wrong.

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#26
In reply to #17

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 9:52 AM

1958?

Oh yeah, we all remember that don't we.

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#35
In reply to #26

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/03/2016 4:53 PM

Autopilot is a name given to a system by a manufacturer. Look at some of the other manufacturer system names: http://www.thatcham.org/car-safety//wp-content/uploads/2016/02/The-different-names-for-AEB.pdf

Would a buyer of a Fiat expect their City Brake Control to be able to drive their car using only a clutch and gas pedal? But it says City Brake Control?

If Tesla said that you do not have to pay attention to the road, because the Autopilot system will take care of everything, then yes, I agree they are 100% at fault. To date, I haven't seen them make this claim.

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#42
In reply to #26

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/06/2016 4:27 AM

You do if you're Welsh....

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#31
In reply to #17

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 10:42 AM

Unless you're a pilot you very likely could think "autopilot" means no human intervention.

BTW, there are aircraft flying today that can operate from takeoff roll to landing roll-out without human intervention.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 11:33 AM

Make that commercial passenger, piloted aircraft.

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#37
In reply to #32

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/03/2016 5:13 PM

But those planes require two pilots to be at the controls at all times, right? Or are they allowed to watch movies while flying?

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#40
In reply to #37

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/03/2016 7:20 PM

"Two pilots to be at the controls at all times"?

No.

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/06/2016 4:04 AM

On ALL Commercial Flights, two pilots are required. http://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/airline-crew1.htm

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#43
In reply to #41

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/06/2016 11:06 AM

Not true for much of Alaska.

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#44
In reply to #41

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/06/2016 1:46 PM

And, if popular folklore is to be believed, at least one is supposed to be an atheist, in case of mid-flight Rapture.

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#19
In reply to #16

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 12:39 AM

FYI, the Tesla press release info on the updated Autopilot system clearly states that the driver must keep his hands on the wheel.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions and not blame companies for doing things wrong or blaming them when someone gets hurt or killed.

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#25
In reply to #19

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 9:50 AM

Who reads press releases before getting in their spanking new Autopilot?

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#34
In reply to #25

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/03/2016 4:34 PM

The information should've been presented to the customer in some manner. The salesman, the person who demonstrated the vehicle, the owners manual, some sort of brochure, etc. Remember that info from press releases will usually show up other literature about the car.

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#18

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 12:35 AM

Many manufacturers now have these types of systems available as options. I drove a Subaru Outback with Eyesight for a little over a 100 mile drive. I played around with the system and I was impressed, but I wouldn't watch a movie while driving!

The Subaru system also can detect when the driver takes his hands off the steering wheel for too long a time. A warning light comes on, which says to put your hands back on the wheel.

Subaru did not intend the system to be used as a hands off system - though it could be. Per the Tesla press release info on their updated Autopilot, it also says that the driver must keep his hands on the road. https://www.teslamotors.com/presskit/autopilot

Unfortunately, the driver believed he could watch a movie while the car was driving down the freeway. I'm glad he wasn't doing that down here in So Cal, because he would've been in an accident much sooner.

We as individuals in a modern society need to use much more common sense. We're not only responsible for the damage we cause ourselves, but also what we do to others.

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#27
In reply to #18

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 9:57 AM

Autopilot implies hands free.

The lawyers are going to scorch Tesla's earth for that one, never mind their cameras can't tell the difference between a broadsided truck and the road when the sun is shining.

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#36
In reply to #27

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/03/2016 5:10 PM

Ford says their trucks are Ford Tough. So when a Ford Truck breaks down, do you sue Ford. Ford Tough implies it's going to be a reliable vehicle, right?

Dodge calls their trucks America's Longest Lasting Pickups. So if my friend buys a Ford and my other friend buys a GMC, am I guaranteed that my truck will last longer?

Autopilot is a name the company put on their cruise control system, just like Chrysler did in 1958. Car manufacturers have been exaggerating on the names of their products for decades! Ford did not build a jet engine, but they did build a Cobra Jet; and there was no Cobra inside the engine either!

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#20

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 8:17 AM

There were three systems that failed:

  • Tesla visual recognition system (failed to distinguish white lorry on bright white background)
  • Tesla near proximity radar system (was looking under the truck)
  • Mark 1 eyeball (had been removed from road duty and placed on entertainment duty)

I have some trouble blaming the technology here. The human in command didn't see the truck either.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 8:26 AM

they'll increase redundancy in the system, its very unfortunate this guy blindly trusted his car, you just cant be an idiot when you're behind the wheel.

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#29
In reply to #21

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 10:29 AM

He trusted Tesla's word that Autopilot does what it says it does.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 10:42 AM

I've said before, I think all "auto" driving systems are BETA still but I think it will be the norm in the future but Tesla wants to be cool and they released this before every scenario had been accounted for.someone lost their life so standing behind a warning doesn't cut it, Tesla needs to put safety ahead of sales

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#28
In reply to #20

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 9:58 AM

The human was relying on the Autopilot, get it?

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#33
In reply to #28

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 12:26 PM

Yep, get that. I also get that the system was being used other than in acccordance with the instructions. I wouldn't blame the bandsaw if I ignored some of the safety warnings and it all went horribly wrong.

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#22

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 8:36 AM

Many years ago a woman sued Winnebago because she put the vehicle in cruise control and went to the back to get something,while traveling on the Interstate.

Of course,there was a crash.

She sued the company and won a large sum of money.

She thought that cruise control meant total control.

All dealerships were required to inform all buyers, in writing and verbally, that cruise control did not mean you could let go of the wheel.

If this goes to trial,I hope the same type of jury is not selected.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 8:38 AM

On second thought, it may be hard to find 12 people with common sense nowadays.

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/02/2016 8:42 AM

get Clintons on the jury, it's a sure thing you'll get your desired outcome

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#38

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/03/2016 5:18 PM

Please don't get me wrong, as much as I am impressed with what Elon Musk has done with Tesla, I am not a fan of their cars. I've heard that there are quality issues as well as software problems. I would rather buy a proven design - I work hard for the money I earn and I don't want to throw it away on an unproven, problematic vehicle.

Still, I believe that people still need to be responsible for their actions. Buying a cup of coffee from McDonalds and suing them because they spilled it on their lap and got burned? Tesla drivers are no different and they need to realize that they bought a CAR. It's not some sort of special vehicle that does incredible things. It's a CAR. You know what I mean.

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#39

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/03/2016 5:21 PM

I have clients who buy a Prius car for the increased fuel efficiency. If they drive it like a reasonable person, they'll get close to 50 mpg. For those who drive it like there's a V-8 under the hood, they get 30 mpg or so. If they complain, I tell them they're not using their tool properly. Someone made a remark earlier about cutting their arm off because they used a band saw improperly. You get the picture.

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#46

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/15/2016 4:23 PM

I had wondered what was "driving" this push for autonomous vehicles. This idea is not customer, or demand, driven. Most consumers want a car that is safe, efficient, and comfortable or fun to drive. It is:

"The United Nations General Assembly has adopted a resolution in order to make automotive safety features standard among new vehicles in order to prevent road injuries and deaths.

Specifically the UN calls on member states to adopt as standard electronic stability control (ESC) in vehicles, a technology the intergovernmental organization calls the most significant advance in safety since the seat belt and one of the most important crash-avoidance systems available. It also calls on autonomous emergency braking to be implemented that uses advanced technology to help drivers avoid or mitigate collisions by having the car provide braking in times of need. "

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: Tesla: Fatal Crash in 'Autopilot'

07/18/2016 2:58 PM

I's post a sarcastic 'curse the UN for wanting us to be safe' comment here, but I'm sure someone would take it literally and say I'm calling for the abolishment of the UN.

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