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Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/21/2016 12:08 PM

I know that sodium acetate is used to imitate the vinegar taste in foods,like potato

chips,and that it is very effective for moisture protection when applied to concrete.

Pure Sodium acetate is rather expensive,and making concentrated sodium acetate at home is too time consuming.

I have a couple of concrete decks,total about 500 square feet.

Can I apply white vinegar and sodium carbonate mixture,(using just enough sodium

bicarbonate to neutralize the acetic acid)and allow the heat from the concrete to

concentrate the mixture?

The deck gets very hot and water quickly evaporates.

If this will work,can anyone give the approximate quantities required?

Thanks in advance for any and all help on this subject.

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#1

Re: Sodium acetate on concrete

08/21/2016 12:14 PM
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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Sodium acetate on concrete

08/21/2016 12:44 PM

Of course it will fiz a lot.

2nd grade science class.

I know the ratio of baking soda to vinegar to make it pure at

home,but it requires heating to remove the excess water.

I am just wondering if the self drying by the concrete will be just as good as boiling it down.

Any chemistry experts in the house?

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#7
In reply to #3

Re: Sodium acetate on concrete

08/21/2016 1:52 PM

I am just wondering if the self drying by the concrete will be just as good as boiling it down.

It depends on the weather, for one thing. How's the humidity in Croatia? (44.56024"N 15.307971E)

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#2

Re: Sodium acetate on concrete

08/21/2016 12:23 PM

I'd not waste my time making fizzees in the back yard. Seal‑Krete 1 gal. Clear‑... $28.94 Home Depot (10) Covers up to 500 sq. ft.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Sodium acetate on concrete

08/21/2016 12:47 PM

The problem with sealers is that they seal in any moisture in the concrete.

The sodium acetate acts like a one-way valve,allowing moisture to escape,but not allowing water back in.

See link below:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070806101941.htm

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Sodium acetate on concrete

08/21/2016 12:56 PM

So, the problem is moisture encroachment from below.

Yes, that's a horse of a different color.

Good luck with the chemistry experiment, but beware the fumes.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Sodium acetate on concrete

08/21/2016 1:35 PM

Beware of the fumes, as Lyn says. The chemical reaction will release Carbon diOxide into the atmosphere. The Icecaps will melt, sea level will rise and flood your home! The Earth will become so hot that the ice clogging your refrigerator drain might even melt!

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#8

Re: Sodium acetate on concrete

08/21/2016 2:18 PM

Pure Sodium acetate is rather expensive,and making concentrated sodium acetate at home is too time consuming.

If you want food-grade for your patio, yes expensive. How about industrial grade? Some manufacturers might sell small quantities, and it might be cheaper than making your own.

https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/industrial-grade-sodium-acetate.html

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#9

Re: Sodium acetate on concrete

08/21/2016 2:21 PM

I think you could do this by mixing a large quantity in 30 gallon container...put a 1 gallon container of baking soda into the larger barrel and add the vinegar 1 quart at a time while continuously mixing with a 1x3 wooden slat...continue adding vinegar until fizzing stops, then pour enough to wet the entire surface of the slab using a squeegee and allow to dry thoroughly, repeat until solution is used up....

...or you could just buy some....

http://www.soapgoods.com/Sodium-Acetate-Technical-p-770.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwouW9BRCN0ozIifTI6_cBEiQAD9gNsTZmndrJg_L8rWB31lBcqdrD0kKMbUwlAGOgyRSYdOsaAqkQ8P8HAQ

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#10

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/21/2016 11:52 PM

Go to Google, Chemical Sales handbooks, yellow pages or any other source of spray drying contractors or plants that operate these dryer units. Look for someone who dries anything dissolved or suspended in Acetic Acid with Sodium Hydroxide in the spray dryer. The result is excess and sometimes hard to get rid off sodium acetate.

I was involved with a plant where we made phenol mercuric acetate (PMA) both as a liquid and as a powder. We would mix the hydroxide with it just prior to spray drying it. Result was PMA powder and liquid/water Sodium Acetate. For years we had to pay to get rid of it until we found a customer for it. It was also very "clean" of the obvious contaminates.

Unfortunately or fortunately the EPA shut the plant down and it was decontaminated of mercury. Buildings will stand till eternity. This happened 20 years ago so there is no Sodium Acetate available from them. Look around, especially with google for bi-product material.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#12

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/22/2016 12:07 PM

You could eliminate the evolution of CO2 by using sodium hydroxide and vinegar.

A gallon of vinegar is 8.35 lb/gallon and contains ~ 5% acetic acid - about 0.42 lb.

The reaction:

NaOH + CH3COOH ⇒ NaCOOCH3 + H2O

MWNaOH = 40, MWCH3COOH = 60, so it will take ~0.28 lb sodium hydroxide to react with 1 gallon of vinegar.

I would:

  • Take a 5-gallon bucket and fill with 1-2 gallons of water.
  • Add 0.28 lb of lye a bit at a time with stirring.
  • Continue stirring until the lye is dissolved.
  • With stirring, slowly add about 2/3 of the gallon of vinegar and check the pH.
  • If pH is above 7, continue adding until pH is ~5.

If that isn't enough, just make another batch, or scale up accordingly.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/22/2016 12:22 PM

Thanks! That is what I needed to hear.

A more efficient and cheaper way to make it,as well as the approximate proper

quantities to use of each ingredient.

I have some very accurate Ph paper for testing.

A GA from me!

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/22/2016 1:47 PM

Thanks!

Hey, maybe we could do one better - do you have any info on how much sodium acetate is needed per area?

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/22/2016 3:26 PM

I am afraid i do not have that info available..I will have to play it by ear on this one.

I figure just power wash it, then apply till it puddles and let it dry.

I don't know how much it will absorb.

I should be able to observe if it repels rain or not.

Thanks again!

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#19
In reply to #13

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/23/2016 3:11 AM

<...very accurate Ph paper...> Wow! That's as rare as rocking horse droppings!

Er, it's pH, BTW, not Ph.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/23/2016 7:43 AM

Here's your rocking horse droppings:

Tridicator pH paper, made by Fil-chem.

Range 1 to 11 pH

Accuracy within .25pH unit(sensitivity 0.05 pH).

This is what we used in an ASTM lab,and it agreed with the calibrated pH meters.

PS: Don't forget to sweep up.

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#15
In reply to #12

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/22/2016 2:09 PM

Just watch out for the ~55 kJ/mole! Since this is over 3 moles you could have some killer calories.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/22/2016 3:20 PM

Thanks!

I am aware of the exothermic reaction, having made lye soap in the past.

Must add lye to water slowly to control temperature.

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/22/2016 6:09 PM

With 1 or 2 gallons of water to make a ~ 3% to 1.5% solution, my guess is that it won't be too much of an issue (just wear safety glasses).

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#21
In reply to #16

Re: Sodium Acetate on Concrete

08/23/2016 11:15 PM

If you are worried about the exothermic reaction use ice water instead of just water.

Fill the plastic container for this reaction with ice to the appropriate level. Add cold water up to half the height of the ice and stir. This colder water/ice will slow the reaction some and keep the temperature lower than tap water would.

This is how many dyes were made in years past.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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