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A Doubt About Ions

11/01/2016 1:09 PM

Hello everyone

I have few questions about ions .

Will an ion ( charged Gas particles ) show the same property as a charged rode (negatively or positively ) .

Will it produce a charge redistribution in a conductor as a charged object do ?

Can that charge distribution be measured by a galvanometer ?

I mean connecting it to a circuit containing galvanometer and read it's values or with any sensitive instruments

Thanks for the reply in advance

I know my questions sound kiddish , I am sorry for that I f u feel so

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#1

Re: A doubt about ions

11/01/2016 2:06 PM

I and Google do not understand what is a "charged rode". Maybe you meant to say a charged rod. A solid rod and any gas have so very many different mechanical properties that I cannot choose which properties you wish to discuss.

Gathering gas ions is one of the standard methods of measuring the amount of ionizing radiation in a location. The sensitivity of a gas detector will change depending on the chemistry of the gas in the chamber and the magnitude of the voltage gradient used to gather the ions created. A voltage gradient is required to prevent recombination of the plus and minus charged parts of the ion pairs created.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: A doubt about ions

11/01/2016 2:12 PM

Thank you for that information

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Re: A doubt about ions

11/01/2016 2:13 PM

Theoretically, an ion would repel like charge and attract unlike charge, just as a charged rod would. However, the effect would be many orders of magnitude smaller, and you would not be able to measure it with a galvanometer. However, there are various ways to measure a unit charge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_charge#Experimental_measurements_of_the_elementary_charge

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#4

Re: A doubt about ions

11/01/2016 2:15 PM
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#5

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/01/2016 8:46 PM

After reading your other (helicopter) post, I'd like to know what you propose to be the outcome of your questions.

Is this homework? If so, what is the desired product?

Is this a project? If so, what is the desired product?

Research paper? If so, what is the desired product?

Curiosity?

You must have a reason for asking.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/01/2016 10:50 PM

Yes it is a project but I am sorry I can't reveal the whole idea

The basic concept is this

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/01/2016 11:41 PM

"The basic concept is this"

Then you don't need any help.

Good luck.

<us>

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#8

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/02/2016 3:21 AM

No idea where you are going with this, but you could read up on plasma. I strongly advise against it, but you can make your very own plasma in a household microwave oven. If you do read up on that, do not try it - there are a multitude of dangers.

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#9
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/02/2016 8:21 AM

You tell Jerinsam that it can be done and there are articles on it, then say do not try it. That is like telling a small child there are cookies in the cookie jar, but don't try to get one. So, as Lyn asked, what is your purpose?

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#13
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 5:40 AM

I've no idea as to Jerinsam's age, or that of any other reader. All children find the cookie jar, and they all have a dip inside. Following your logic, a child should not be warned about things they have not yet encountered ?

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#14
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 8:57 AM

There are certain things a child should not have any knowledge of before it is time.

The collective "you" don't want toddlers walking around with Ak-47's while wearing a biker vest. Just common sense.

"You" would not want your 16 year old daughter going out on a "date" with a "gentleman" in his middle twenties or thirties. Common sense.

You don't want your 8 year old son studying (and experimenting with) the chemistry of inorganic cyanide. Self-preservation.

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#16
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 9:14 AM

""You" would not want your 16 year old daughter" within 50 miles of a certain candidate for president either.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 9:45 AM

I agree that I would not want my (or anyone else's) 16 year old daughter anywhere near Hillary Rodham Clinton. I hear she licks them young. Oops typo.

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#19
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 10:12 AM

Bad form!

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 10:17 AM

So did I tickle your fancy? Or did I become your huckleberry? Ringo was not the only fast gun in town.

I see it is OK to take pot-shots at the RNC candidate, but can't say a mumbling word about the damned le___an b___ch the DNC has running. I am so tired of putting up with having to hear about her (for the last thirty years), and her lame az husbin.

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#24
In reply to #21

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 4:10 PM

I don't believe that Lubbock gets its water from the Ogallala Aquifer, so that isn't the source of all you Texan's silliness, it must be a bad well that's causing all the tightness in west Texas.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 4:21 PM

No, the Ogallala is our source, whether it be in the Sand hills field near Muleshoe, or the flinty strata up in Carson Co.

Pish, posh, I am the only un-tight one left. Everyone else gets drunk on Friday night.

Maybe I am tight because I am not tight? After all my gibberish today, I need a stiff drink.

I know some of the wells in West Texas (some in Yoakum Co., and some near Hereford up in Deaf Smith Co. have pretty high levels of fluoride, enough to stain teeth.

Some of the gas well fields up north of Amarillo have a considerable residual of helium in them that is produced along with the gas, white gas, and oil.

That must be what makes us silly, but only after inhaling it from a balloon.

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 4:53 PM

The Ogallala Aquifer is being both depleted and polluted. Irrigation withdraws much groundwater, yet little of it is replaced by recharge. Since large-scale irrigation began in the 1940s, water levels have declined more than 30 meters (100 feet) in parts of Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Texas. In the 1980s and 1990s, the rate of groundwater mining , or overdraft, lessened, but still averaged approximately 82 centimeters (2.7 feet) per year.
http://www.waterencyclopedia.com

I think maybe Permian Basin water is leaching into Lubbock's supply.

Be careful with Fluoride water. Many people fear that it is a Commie plot to poison us all.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 5:32 PM

Is it true that in Texas a person can suck up all the water under their land no matter how far the aquifer reaches ( ie out of county or even state)? I admit to watching too much of Jessie Ventura 'Conspiracy Theory', but is it so ? My Brit mentality tells me it is only OK to take stuff from under my own property.. I'm not judging, just curious as to how Americans see things. I'd be preety peed if a wealthy neighbour drained under 'my' land.

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#29
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 5:48 PM

That's my understanding. Then, there's horizontal drilling, used by oil companies. The top of the well is on their leased land, where the suction point is?????????????????

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#30
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 6:23 PM

Horizontal drilling is nothing new, though legallity is of interest.

I'm not certain of UK law, but I would cause hell to anybody that did it to me. Luckily my small patch of land is of no interest to anyone. We have a saying that 'an Englishman's home is his castle' and we seriously mean it, ever since Magna Carta. American's hold certain values to be true, and rightly so. We are not so different.

According to telly, you can take all you can suck up.Various billionares are mentioned, but the 'who' does not matter. I'm only curious abot if it is legal and goes on. surely American people would stop such exploitation. It happens inn the UK, but people in America never strike me as taking this.

up.

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#31
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 7:53 PM

The plant is projected to fill 264 million half-liter bottles in its first year, or almost 35 million gallons.

What drought? Nestle plans $35 million plant to bottle water in Phoenix

The Middle Eastern kingdom needs hay for its 170,000 cows. So, it's buying up farmland for the water-chugging crop in the drought-stricken American Southwest.

Why Saudi Arabia bought 14,000 acres of US farm land - CSMonitor.com

Water, water, every where,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, every where,
Nor any drop to drink.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 2:00 AM

Feck the racist Swiss and Saudi's. Give them all the farting cows they want. Neither country will care about anybody else, and will certainly not lift a finger in the name of global help.

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#38
In reply to #31

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 9:25 AM

It is an outrage. Especially so, when you consider all that bottled water is 99% hype, and 1% plastic (that ends up lining our shoreline, and the great plastic drift in Mid Pacific).

Tap water is good enough, except in stupid places like Flint, MI. although even that situation can be, and is being remedied. My God, people used to drink from streams and the entire human race survived up to this time without bottled water (and the plasticizers from the plastic). It is a convenience only, and a lucrative scheme for companies that bottle it.

As to Saudi cows, 170,000 head is a large number, alright, but there are feed yards bigger than that in both California, Texas, Colorado, Nebraska, and even New Mexico, Nevada, and possibly some other western states I missed. One thing America is good at, and that is producing milk and meat. The Middle Easterners lack fresh water, but seawater can be de-salted and used, if they were only forced to develop that resource, instead of exploiting ours. Unfortunately, there is nothing in the law books to prevent foreign entities from coming in and owning vast sections of land in America, and exploiting that land (and its mineral rights, water rights, etc.) toward their ends.

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#39
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 1:36 PM

Obama Designates Three New National Monuments In The California ...

And takes flack for it.

"“I am outraged,” said Rep. Doug Lamborn, a Colorado Republican. “This is a top-down, big-government land grab by the president that disenfranchises the concerned citizens in the Browns Canyon region.”

“My message to the president is cut it out,” Buck said in a statement. “He is not king. No more acting like King Barack. That is not how we do things in the U.S.”

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 3:17 PM

A little more meat on those bones, please? I have no context with which to judge that, but BHO may not be looking so bad after Nov. 8.

I hate to admit I could be thinking that right now. Isn't that why we elect a new POTUS every so often? To make us miss the old one, even if we didn't support them or aligned with their party?

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#41
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 4:04 PM

"Out of the frying pan, into the fire", as it were!

I cannot explain the abject hatred of one who brought America out of the depths of financial ruin back to a reasonable level of employment and prosperity and is damned constantly for doing it. (Except, of course, for the color of his skin)

Now, the PPACA, that's a horse of a different color.

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#42
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 4:51 PM

It is still a dark horse, even if the color is different.

I heard AZ is taking the largest hit on premiums this year for ACA.

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#43
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 7:23 PM

That seems true.

Congress, the handmaiden of the health industry, has hamstrung any attempts for use the collective power of the program to drive costs down and Arizona has only one provider this next year, as I understand.

My wife, who has been a healthcare administrator for over 30 years is not enamored with ACA.

It's a worthy concept, but not in the current political environment. (Enact term limits!)

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/07/2016 10:13 AM

Sure! Democrats go first, and limit themselves to one term of half length, as a compensating gesture. No? ROFLMAO

I agree we don't need people like several who seem to have been in there before dinosaurs invented dinosaur eggs.

BTW - I still think the ACA was dead on arrival, and it had taken eight years to figure out (for some) just how bad it is.

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#36
In reply to #29

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 9:17 AM

I am sure the Railroad Commission of Texas (regulates mineral and oil production) is all over that one as well as corporate lawyers. I do believe the land men from the oil companies have to purchase lease rights to all the land where drilling will extend, but I am certainly no authority on oil leases.

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#35
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 9:14 AM

Maybe in the old days, it was gold mine, a free-for-all laissez faire attitude to water use.

Now we have the Texas Water Development Board, the High Plains Underground Water District, and other regulating agencies that "assist" farmers in reducing their usage, planning for more efficient operation, etc. What I still don't get is how we still are producing such water intensive crops as corn, and sugar beets here in West Texas from pumping groundwater out of the aquifer. All in the name of gasohol, and sugar for our sugary soft drinks.

I still think it would be a fantastic idea to re-route wastewater from the city of Denver, Colorado, out of the Platte River system and into a large pipeline to West Texas. It would have a significant hydroelectric potential, agricultural potential, and help alleviate depletion of the aquifer by municipalities in the area. If Omaha can make tea from it, Lubbock will have coffee, please.

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#33
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 9:02 AM

If you mean Permian basin water that is part of the oil bearing strata, forget it. Oil wells here are thousands of feet below surface, fresh water is mostly less than 200 feet below surface.

I am sure if not for the Ogallala aquifer, Lubbock would never have reached the population it is now, and when it does finally dry up, there will be no way to support any sized city, much less a growing one. At the present we are withdrawing water from fields controlled by T. Boone Pickens, and have a long term contract for that, and all of the well fields are beyond a 75 mile radius of Lubbock.

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#37
In reply to #27

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 9:21 AM

You should know by now that all pessimistic predictions will be ignored regardless of any scientific basis for the predictions. Scientists and engineers are just today's shamans. Besides, we will all die from something eventually. The previous generations didn't care what they left their great grand children. Why should we care?

<end curmudgeon mode>

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#22
In reply to #14

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 3:42 PM

James, I have no wish to argue, but nothing in that refutes the point I was trying to make. Children do come across information that parents/carers might wish they had not. There is a fine line between education before or after any dangerous event.

Exactly how does a child soldier in Africa become aware of the dangers of guns. How does a 16 y.o. be aware of the dangers of elderly 'gentlemen'. How is a child warned about messing with chemicals. We need not fill their world with fear, but surely gradual and age appropriate cautioning is no bad thing. Internet sites do not generally advise caution on any matter, even if there is a mass of information. That was my point. The web is awash with iffy information, yet seldom are there any cautions.

I'd not want a great many things on the internet, but burying my head in the sand is not the answer. If I get 3 OT votes, I will consider myself wrong and ask admin to delete my posts on this topic. No hard feelings intended, we seem to have a different take on this. I have somehow upset Phys on the topic. All I can say is that ignorance is not bliss. Vote as you wish and I will accept opinion.

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#23
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 3:58 PM

I have yet to ever be offended by your elegantly worded postings my friend. You are always welcome to chime in!

I agree with your evaluation of present conditions, and common conditions throughout the history. I am no fan of children not being children for the entire term of it. In fact, I loathe that, and pray to God it cease.

It is sad to see the lack of general innocence (including mine) in today's society. It is just hard to 'un-see' and 'un-learn' events. If I were a drinking man, my sorrows could be drowned, but I have no panacea to turn to. Before long, the way my diabetes is progressing, I won't have a pancreas to turn to either.

I would like it if the OP would perhaps come back, try once more, and tell us just a little bit more about what we hopes to accomplish with ions.

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#26
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Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 4:47 PM

It's another thing that nags me - when an OP does not give feedback, especially a newcomer. It may well be that the poster is only free once a month. I'm patient.

Thank you, James. One of the great things about CR4 is that members can usually sort out any misunderstandings.

I raise you diabetes with my epilepsy. Took a fall the other day and my one good eye looks like something from a cartoon, and almost fully closed. I loose, diabetes is much worse - take care of yourself. The mother in law has diabetes, so I am aware of how much trouble it can cause.

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#34
In reply to #26

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/04/2016 9:07 AM

One of my sisters had epilepsy from a fall when she was a child (fell off a truck pulling a cotton trailer, hit her head on a stone).

The principal of the junior high school wanted my dad to just keep her home from school, and lock her in a closet (something to that effect). This guy was some kind of WWII hero, known for surviving intense combat with some of the best Germany had to offer. My dad had been in the US Navy after WWI, was older, but replied to this principal thus: "If you ever mention my daughter in that context ever again, or if you do not treat her as a normal student, and assist her if she has a seizure, I will personally mop the floor of this school with your body until there is nothing left."

I think the principal got the message.

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#10

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/02/2016 5:02 PM

So you want to make a light saber, huh? Good luck.

So you want to transmit power wirelessly, huh? That has already been done. See the work of Tesla with his transmitting towers and "radio" frequencies.

Have fun. Watch out for the permit enforcement on that one.

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#11

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/02/2016 5:43 PM

I'll sell you mine for $500.00 USD

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/02/2016 9:22 PM

Nope my project is not that

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#15

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 9:04 AM

The thing about ions in a gas, they will generally pick up electrons from any metal or even insulating surface (from the cloud of electrons known as the surface plasmon polaritrons (this is what makes metal shiny).

As soon as the ion "distributes" its charge to such a surface, it becomes a neutral gas atom or molecule, and takes no further participation in ensuing events.

Under low enough pressure, metals can be forced to emit electrons, due to the so-called work function of each metal. The effect, photoelectricity, was studied in detail by Einstein. The energy of emitted electrons can be studied in a magnetic field (the radius of curvature and the field strength reveal the electron energy).

Is that what you are working on? Are you working on switches that utilize gases?

Those already exist to switch immense voltages and currents, and are called thyratrons.

A thyratron is a type of gas-filled tube used as a high-power electrical switch and controlled rectifier. Thyratrons can handle much greater currents than similar hard-vacuum tubes. Electron multiplication occurs when the gas becomes ionized, producing a phenomenon known as Townsend discharge.

Thyratron - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyratron

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#18
In reply to #15

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 10:03 AM

I see that you've never heard of a negatively charged ion.

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: A Doubt About Ions

11/03/2016 10:14 AM

I must now retract in part what I stated earlier about picking up electrons. I should have included that the negative ions could also release an electron the SPP cloud, and thus become neutral and inactive in further festivities.

That concludes these proceedings.

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