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Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 3:59 PM

Brake problems: Pedal to the floor right after starting with sometimes VERY hard pedal with no breaking at all. New pads, rotors, master cylinder and booster, bled 4 big jugs of new fluid... 19" of vacuum at idle then fluctuates between 23" on rev down to 13" after throttle let off, cigar test couldn't find leaks. No error codes on PCM. On a 2002 Chevy Pickup 1500, >200K miles?

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#1

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 4:24 PM
  1. Did you perform all the work yourself, or pay to have it done?
  2. Did you (or they) bleed the actual air off the brake lines?
  3. Were any brake parts contaminated with oil during assembly?
  4. How is the emergency brake? Has the slack been taken up?
  5. What is the present brake fluid level?
  6. Keep looking for leaks?
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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 4:49 PM

1- I did all the work, 33 years Master Electromechanical Tech in Computer manufacturing.

2- Both ways, pumping then reverse bleeding too. I hope all is out but not absolutely sure.

3- Not to my knowledge and cleaned all the guides.

4- Seemed to catch OK, didn't see any need to check it further but I will.

5- Top level.

6- I can and will but no evidence of any leaks.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 4:56 PM

I am no master mechanic, but I do not see the obvious problem. Go over the entire system again. Make sure the master cylinder is working properly, or you will be sorry, right?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 5:12 PM

The only check I know from online is to pump a few times with the engine off then hold down and it does stay there hard as a rock without going down so... ? I'm open for new idea's please? The only problem seems to be after starting then goes to the floor... not easy but I just know it shouldn't go that far.

Thank You

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 5:24 PM

What about the brake hoses? Just because parts are new doesn't mean they couldn't be bad, or damaged, or installed incorrectly....

http://www.ford-trucks.com/how-tos/a/ford-f150-f250-why-does-my-brake-pedal-go-to-the-floor-356398

http://www.ford-trucks.com/how-tos/c/brakes-37027/

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 5:42 PM

Thank you and after looking through it I am wondering what *exactly* on the step for checking for air in the lines mean? "The failure to the system may be due to air in the lines. If the reservoir is full, try pumping the brake pedal to see if the pressure returns. If it does, you most likely have air in the lines." I'll just look for the level changing I guess?

Yes, obviously I messed up somewhere but that's what all this is for Right?

Those breaded steal lines look like a good idea. One view showed a flexible line between the from and rear. I will check on that.

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#12
In reply to #5

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 7:46 PM

GA. I've had brake hose problems with hoses that looked perfectly good from the outside. Sometimes the inner liner fails and can act like a check valve, only allowing fluid into the caliper, then not releasing so the pads drag and get really hot. I had that happen just this past year on my 2000 F-150. Sometimes it can act like a blockage and make the braking really hard. On a 15 year old plus vehicle, those rubber lines may be suspect. I didn't see where the OP said the hoses were replaced. Did I miss it?

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#6

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 5:28 PM

You don't say what the original symptoms were. But one possibility is one or more collapsed hoses. I've never had it happen to me, but I understand the inner layer of the hose can separate from the outer part and collapse internally, where you can't see it from the outside.

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 6:20 PM

Oh ok, originally I had that shutter in the front braking like slight rotor warp but what was scary was the squeamishness of the brake pedal mostly at startup but after getting going the brakes seemed fine. What is REALLY REALLY scary now is no brakes at all with a non moving hard brake pedal... eventually going down with pumping. The original problem of squishy is still there not changing at all and now a new thang of no brakes at all, Dang... ?

Just found the flexible line between the front and rear. Had someone pump the brakes with the engine off then on and no line swelling or fluid level changing.

I heard about the hose problem on the big vacuum line to the booster but looks good what I can see. Have already been shot gunning with lots O money so wish I could narrow down with symptoms.

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#7

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 5:39 PM

Wow... lotsa troubles.

Please tell us condition of (if so fitted) the ABS pump, wheel speed sensors, ABS controller. Is vehicle maybe equipped with QuadraSteer? Trailer brake unit of some sort?

Sounds like, in general, you have a pretty good idea how to diagnose and repair such troubles. Is it usual, in the world of fixing computers, to replace a bunch of stuff before you're certain just what is really wrong with the machine?

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#11
In reply to #7

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 6:53 PM

Ha, Ya, when the parts are free, supplied by them. My whole skill set is as of now was to them to just replace the whole damn thing... computer and the repair tech. They said... "We are in the manufacturing business, not the repair business" so bye-bye.

Ok, the new thang may be I had also replaced a front hub but the new hub came with a torn ABS cable so just used the old one... Hey, I got a full refund for that purchase. All I know for sure id that I have ABS and no errors or panel lights on like for the ABS. I do see a block underneath with a bunch of lines going it at the end of the tranny.

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#10

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 6:41 PM

GM Finally Recalls Trucks, SUVs for ABS Problem

Brake Problems Plague Silverado Owners - ConsumerAffairs.com

Service Advisor: ABS Bleeding Procedures for Common GM Vehicles ...says:

"Before you begin, however, you must make sure the rear pistons in the Delco ABS-VI modulator are in the home position so the check balls are unseated."

If this is not done, you won’t be able to bleed the rear brake lines.

Finally, ALWAYS bleed the longest brake line first the next longest, etc.

Good luck!

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 7:55 PM

Yeah, my '02 Suburban had that same problem of low speed ABS actuation. Fixed under recall at the stealership. 18 months later, starting happening again because the dealer mechanics didn't do squat to prevent the corrosion from happening again. I fixed it the second time and thoroughly cleaned the area around the mounting pad for the ABS sensor, then primed it and painted with rust inhibiting paint. Prior to remounting the ABS sensor, I applied a liberal coat of zinc anti-seize. It took more seven years for the ABS problem to come up again. This time, I just pulled the 60 amp fuse for the ABS pump out of the fuse block. Problem fixed. Other than that annoying yellow light on the dash.

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#30
In reply to #13

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 10:22 AM

"stealership". Thanks for the chuckle! I'm going to keep that one in my vocabulary!

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#22
In reply to #10

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 5:17 AM

Reading those horror stories, and the complicated bleeding procedure, make me think ABS can be more trouble than it's worth. Better to have reliable brakes and do without ABS, mine has only come on 2-3 times in 10 years and I wouldn't have crashed without it.

But I was curious about where it says long stopping distance could be due to ABS coming on because of a fault (salt ingress). You can hear and feel ABS working, so you'd know there's a problem.

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#32
In reply to #22

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 10:50 AM

It's not that hard. Honest. I replaced all the hard lines on my '02 Suburban because they rusted and one burst on my wife when she was pulling an 8,000 lb, 32 ft. travel trailer. I bled the brakes just like I would have bled any other brake system and everything worked just fine.

I would also recommended spending the money and get the official factory shop manuals. That's your best bet. I have the four volume set for my 'Burb. Paid for themselves with the first repair versus going to a shop.

You can definitely feel and hear this problem. It usually happens as you are slowing down probably less than 5 m.p.h. and the ABS kicks in just as you are slowing to stop. Most drivers instinctively raise their foot when the ABS hits (remembering the old pump the brakes on snow and ice) so the vehicle travels further forward than expected. Just keep your foot into it because usually only one of the front wheels is affected. It still stops, it's just surprising when the ABS kicks on for no good reason.

The brakes on this Suburban are so lousy that you cannot get the ABS to kick in on dry pavement. It won't lock up the wheels when it's dry. I tried doing crazy hard braking when the truck was fairly new, it just won't do it. I've bled the lines, changed rubber hoses to braided stainless teflon lines, tried several different types of brake pads, etc. The brakes just suck. I think the calipers flex too much because the brake pedal never gets that solid, hard feeling. Feels like I'm stepping on a couch cushion.

It's been that way since we bought it new. The pedal just keeps going down the harder you push. As such, you get little feedback through the brake pedal because of the 'mush'. The brakes on my 2000 F-150 feel and work soooo much better.

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#25
In reply to #10

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 8:53 AM

I would have given you a "great answer" but we still don't have that option.

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#38
In reply to #25

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 11:34 AM

My head is big enough already! Thanks.

Let's hope Huttoman's brakes get fixed.

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#14

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 10:54 PM

Rock hard pedal means wheel sensor not picking up. Pullthe fuse to the abs and see if that fixes it.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 11:12 PM

I had a similar problem with a Camry. The ABS system had air in it & without cycling the ABS you could bleed & bleed (which I did) without removing the air.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/17/2016 11:25 PM

So is the fix to pull the fuse and check it but also re-bleed with the fuse out? How did you get the air out?

When I did my first bleed after replacing the pads and rotors I wondered if I had took too much fluid out of the reservoir wiping it dry then putting the new fluid in. There was black yucky stuff all in there trying to clean it out.

What is "cycling the ABS" exactly please?

Thanks

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 12:33 AM

I did not have the proper way to cycle the ABS, that is to make the ABS function (turn the brakes on & off rapidly). A GM factory service tool may be able to do this. You can find a low traction area of road (dirt maybe) & get on the brakes hard. Then bleed your brakes again. You might have a bleed screw on your ABS module or a fitting you could crack while bleeding. I did have some luck by bleeding with a homemade pressure bleeder that consisted of a new (since you don't want your brake fluid contaminated) pump type oil gun that was attached at the bleed screw on the caliper & pumped fluid back to the master cylinder reservoir. Still this did not provide a hard pedal.

This was on someone else's Camry & sadly I had to give up before it was done properly. I am assuming that the air was in the ABS since I tried everything else.

One more thing to try before giving up.

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#18

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 12:37 AM

Before you started to bleed the system, did you balance bleed the master cylinder or did you just use brake pedal pump to do the fluid pressure bleed first up? If so, it is possible you have pushed the brake pedal hard enough that the 1st cup piston contacted and broke through the little sensor tit between the front and rear pistons (usually fitted on the GM Models from the bottom between the front and rear output brake steel tubing line fittings) and broke it off. This broken tit does not allow the master brake cylinder to maintain the correct travel strokes and will give you the symptoms you are explaining.

I personally prefer to drain the fluid and then use a pressure pump and force the fluid from the caliper up to the master cylinder, longest line first and have not had trouble or any issues at all. [Caveat] except when the clevis pin on one of my clients utility had fallen out of the brake pedal linkage because the cotter pin had not been replaced when his mechanic had done the repair with a new master cylinder(one time only and I always check now before starting).

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#19

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 2:14 AM

Hi Huttoman,

I have been following this thread with some interest. Until I saw your Post 16, I have seen nothing that I could add. However, in that post you said:

"When I did my first bleed after replacing the pads and rotors I wondered if I had took too much fluid out of the reservoir wiping it dry then putting the new fluid in. There was black yucky stuff all in there trying to clean it out."

Regarding the last sentence - do you mean that there was the "black yucky stuff" at the bottom of the reservoir, and that you tried to clean it out? Or what did you actually experience then?

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 4:43 AM

Wow Wee Thanks, This is a much better forum than any others. This is such fodder for thought that I can't sleep, 3 am here at the home of the UT Longhorns. Hoping Dak and Zek kick ass for the Cowboys today.

By Yucky stuff I mean very *old*, burned, boiled and worn out fluid like that many of us have seen on very old vehicles mostly out at each caliper but this was even up into the master cylinder too. It gets coated on the walls of the resevior and can see particles of it floating around in the new fluid.

Like I said at first I had pumped and *reverse* bled 4 - 32 once big jugs of new synthetic fluid through all this at different times just knowing that "squeamishness" had to be air or yucky stuff in the lines, reverse being pumped back up to the reservoir from the caliper. No luck, still just as the original problem.

Yes I did a "bench bleed" on the master cylinder first. Bought a little kit with fittings and little hoses but did it in the truck. Ya know though, there was an Uh-Oh situation where the pedal was pressed too far too soon but trying to remember if it was at the start of the master cylinder replacement or the booster, I think booster. Wonder if there is a "tit" check of sorts? I used to be damn good at that when younger with the girls.

When daylight I will remove the ABS fuse and check it out on the acre I have here of just dirt out on the back half and checking it out there before there was just not enough brake power to stop the wheels at about 10 miles an hour. I know of a gravel road not far away but my neighbors might wonder about me. I also want to find the torn ABS sensor cable, splice the broken wires and check to see if that new sensor has to be in that new hub... a material compatibility thang.

Thanks all

Onward Through The Fog... what is with the saying at the end of these things, Ha? I love it.

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#21

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 4:56 AM

Might be irrelevant, but why were all those replacement parts fitted? Presumably it was because of a brake problem, but what were the original symptoms?

I assume the old pads and rotors (discs?) needed replacement, as worn ones unlikely to give the symptoms you describe.

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 5:37 AM

An old truck with many problems but not stopping well scares me. The shuttering front braking has always been familiar as warped rotors but the squishy pedal only right after startup was weird and unfamiliar so like I said scary. It straightened up OK though after getting going.

My first plan was to just throw on new pads and have the rotors turned but found such a good deal on new ones to throw those on too and for all the way around front and back. Well no difference on the squishy so online it said for squishy replace the MC. No luck. Looked online for booster check so what the hell, replace it too because it would go to the floor sometimes. No luck. Oh yeah, right after the first bleed is when the really scary no brakes at all thang came up so even after the MC and booster replacement and reverse bleed still no change at all on the original "Squishy" symptom. While waiting for parts to come in I replaced a front hub. I'm in my 60's so forgetting exactly what happened when.

Thank You Very Much and I do appreciate it a lot.

"Onward Through The Fog"... (Oat Willie). Oat Willie's is a head shop still owned and operated in the Austin area since the 60's I think. Ha. Were lots of UT hippy's then.

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 7:17 AM

OK thanks, I can't add much to others' comments, except it does seem the ABS is the most likely culprit, and the procedures in lyn's #10 links might cure it.

Maybe you got air into the ABS when you drained the reservoir right out. I changed the fluid on my 2004 Mondeo (UK) a few weeks back, but I was careful not to let the reservoir empty. First time I'd bled brakes for 30-odd years (company cars in the meantime) and what did surprise me was how hard to push the pedal down with the bleed screw wide open. Don't know whether that's anything to do with the ABS, but it didn't cause a problem.

One more point - I suppose it's a combined hydraulic and parking brake actuator? As you probably know, the parking brake cable should be completely slack (ideally disconnect it) then adjust the shoes or pads or let the auto adjuster do its biz, usually by applying the footbrake a few times. Then reconnect the cable and adjust to give 3-4 clicks before it starts to bite. Amateurs sometimes try to fix a parking brake problem by tightening the cable (seems obvious!) but if the mechanical expander is at the end of its travel because of lack of adjustment, it makes no difference.

Best of luck with the problem!

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 9:05 AM

I concur that the ABS needs to be "reset" one way or the other, to get air out of it.

Apparently, there are check valves that can either be stuck due to pressure lock, or residue? Kinda seems like we have reached the point where the only people qualified to work on brakes will be the professionals, and hopefully they can be found somewhere.

Huttoman: If you insist on continuing your own brake job, how about you go back to the start square, with shop manual in hand this time, a case of cold ones, and some spare time, and go through it all mentally, very methodically. Compare what should have been done to what you actually did, and when. Some glaring mistake should appear. Pretty sure it has to do with not bleeding the air out of the ABS setup.

Get another ABS cable. Is your life only worth the cost of that?

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 10:10 AM

Yes, I don't know much about ABS, whether it has valves in series with the brake lines, so that if something gets stuck the pedal goes solid but nothing gets through to the wheels, but if it does it sounds pretty scary.

Incidentally, according to the Haynes book, when replacing brake fluid unless you use Ford special kit old fluid will not be removed from the ABS unit, though "the amount of old fluid remaining may be quite small".

I doubt that a bad ABS sensor cable would cause these dire problems. I replaced a rear hub a couple of years ago and the ABS started to chatter while driving along, and eventually the warning light came on. Found the sensor was held on by an M3 setbolt and the hole wasn't tapped deep enough (Friday afternoon in Shanghai) leaving the sensor loose. Put a flat washer under the bolt head and it was fine.

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#36
In reply to #27

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 11:20 AM

You mentioned:-

"Incidentally, according to the Haynes book, when replacing brake fluid unless you use Ford special kit old fluid will not be removed from the ABS unit, though "the amount of old fluid remaining may be quite small".

Should not matter, as the small amount of water held in that small amount of B.fluid will be diluted by the larger amount of new fluid, raising the boiling point of the brake fluid as a whole to that of the fresh fluid.....

The boiling point is the important part....it is lowered over time as water is absorbed by the B.Fluid.

Best is to replace ALL the fluid starting with the RH rear brake on LHD cars.

I have not seen this type of problem caused by ABS system myself, they just seem to work....if it was working before and no air has been introduced then it should still work.

Do remember that its always a good idea to have the workshop (Haynes maybe) for the model of car when working on safety components....

This is not a perfect video, he does not wipe off the cap and the reservoir before opening it, and he should, pump out old fluid down to the bottom level, before adding new fluid:-

Brake fluid

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#31
In reply to #26

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 10:26 AM

OK, thanks, so I'm off to the auto parts store, it's raining anyway so not good for checking out brake operation. I will buy 2 more big jugs of fluid, an ABS cable and those little clip guide plate thingy's that the pads ride along, I had just cleaned the old ones. Oh yeah, some of that caliper grease for the guide pins and rails. I already have 2 big cans of brake cleaner.

To answer others: The parking brake is all mechanical on the inner rear *disc* hub or inner drum type and the outside disc type stops the truck. ABS is only up front... Jeeezzz, I think. Have to rebuild everything I guess, know, and check out everything. Nothing else is more important than ones safety. It's just that I had read how nice and quick the brakes response will be just by replacing the fluid. Not this time I guess.

Thanks all for your help

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#40
In reply to #31

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

12/19/2016 8:31 PM

Are the pads binding on their guides?

If the entire caliper assembly slides is it free on its guides?

On some vehicles you have to rotate the piston 45deg to disengage it from internal teeth to retract it to fit new PADS then rotate it back to original orientation for normal operation ......

Are the pistons binding?

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#35
In reply to #24

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 11:06 AM

If you do it with the engine running, you get the boost!! Easier!!

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#37
In reply to #35

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 11:28 AM

I didn't think of that, but I was in a garage and wouldn't have wanted to gas myself! The pedal pressure wasn't a problem, just unexpected.

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#34
In reply to #23

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 11:05 AM

After reading your post #9, I would say the servo is defective. I had one that almost shot my knee through the car roof years ago!!

What do you mean with " The shuttering front braking has....."?

That might be something that I discovered just last evening:- I found out that Mitsubishi garage had installed a special spring wrongly on my brake calipers last year. Which gave the driver the feeling that the disks were warped!!! They weren't!!

Though the brakes still worked fine when pressed hard, so it was not a safety problem, but the vibration was bad, so I changed out disks and pads last night that were only half used because of a 2 x 10 cent pring!!!

If you want a job doing properly, do it yourself.....

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#28

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 10:17 AM

From all that I have read I am stuck on the brake booster and lines/vacuum switches related or connected to it. Or a bad/ broken master cylinder.

Unless I am mistaken there is still a mechanical connection between the pedal and the master cylinder. Usually a brake pedal can be very hard to damn near impossible to depress if the booster fails. A bent actuating rod in or connected too a master cylinder. Someone talked about broken tits already. I am going with a mechanical/vacuum issue more than electrical in this case.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 10:19 AM

I really hate to see broken tits.

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#33

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 10:52 AM

You probably bought a bad master cylinder or Booster, or you have installed it incorrectly....I tend to think its bad.....

Look for bad vacuum pipes as well, or even leaks.....I think there is a spray to use nowadays which will colour the exhaust of a running engine if vacuum leaks are present....

I have had bad parts from either cause such problems.

Remember, these parts are not just "unbolt old, bolt on new" parts.....

Also, when first starting engine after such work, it is normal for the pedal to go to the floor as all the tolerances are taken up. You should remember this and start the engine, then work the pedal a few times to take them up. I almost had a crash 60 years ago because I forgot this!!

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#39

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

11/18/2016 12:03 PM

Cracks inside of flexible hoses can create flaps that act as check-valves preventing pressure rise at the brake. The compromised hose will also expand more when pressure is applied and "go to the floor".

Good Luck!

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#41

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

12/19/2016 9:15 PM

Update: FIXED, YaY!

New ABS sensor after cleaning out all grease from inside the hub along those slots was the biggest help.

Just to make things better was putting in those new pad guides. Those new ones with a rubberized coating on the inside and Teflon coating on the outside. Then used a small 5 buck tube of "Permatex Silicone Ceramic Extreme Brake Parts Lubricant" made those pads slide like grezed owl stuff. Best stuff ever I bet.

The squishy is still there before startup but just gets better. I think it's inherent I think someone said on here and believe him.

Thanks all very much. The brakes work great as fr as I'm concerned.

I have a tranny problem too... 4L60E for those with a dirty mind. I guess I'll have to start another thread

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#42
In reply to #41

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

12/20/2016 3:17 AM

Good to know, many thanks and congrats!!

Unsubscribing.

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#43
In reply to #41

Re: Brake Problems After Replacing Most Everything

12/20/2016 5:04 PM

Got there at last! Well done, Merry Christmas all, have a safe one.

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