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Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/18/2016 8:55 PM

Lets hear some science. I say it's as bogus as a 3 dollar bill

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#1

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/18/2016 8:59 PM

78% in all air filled tires is nitrogen

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#2

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/18/2016 9:06 PM

N2 molecules are bigger and as a result will take longer to pass through the tires.

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/18/2016 9:41 PM

N2

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#3

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/18/2016 9:14 PM

Nitrogen is much less chemically reactive than oxygen, so tires will corrode less slowly. It also has a slightly higher specific heat, so tires will run a bit cooler when filled with nitrogen.

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#12
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/19/2016 11:04 AM

Yes, it's enert, but so is helium... interesting.

Hummmm, I wonder...

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#72
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/21/2016 4:37 PM

Helium is used for its thermal conductivity in special applications. Hydrogen (also low molecular weight) is used to cool generators due to its very high thermal conductivity, and high heat capacity.

The reason to use dry nitrogen in tires as opposed to wet air should be obvious to all Bullwinkles present. Water in the tire as vapor can condense, or later on vaporize as the tire warms up, resulting in a sharp pressure increase during racing. Totally not desired.

Wet air is an effective corrosive agent to steel rims.

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#74
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/21/2016 5:24 PM

And to think I only posted it to tie it in with the link. But thanks for the info, I appreciate it interesting.

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#76
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/21/2016 6:48 PM

Usually that wet air condenses in the compressed air storage tank. That's why the tanks are all equipped with drains. I have no idea if those compressor in a box you see at gas stations have any provisions for condensate removal or not. I don't use them. I just use my compressor at home. I've had vehicles with steel rims since 1984. Still haven't seen any rust in any of them.

I've checked my tires when they are 'hot' and the biggest differential I have seen from the 'cold' to the 'hot' has been 5 p.s.i. If I need to top off a tire while on the road, I just fill it to my cold pressure +5. Close enough for government work. Few tires have ever been damaged by slight over-pressures.

When I used to autocross, we were running 44 p.s.i. max tires at 50 to 55 p.s.i. Aired them back down to 35 p.s.i. before driving home.

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#80
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/22/2016 5:40 AM

GA

Your comment agrees 100% with my personal knowledge over more than 50 years of car driving.

You show both good knowledge and common sense.

I have never ever seen a single drop of moisture in any of my car tyres.....and years ago, I did use a hand pump from time to time....nor did the rims rust where the air was pressurised either.....

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#79
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/22/2016 5:36 AM

I think "wet" is stressing the moisture content far too much......especially where tyres are filled from a properly maintained compressor, with a moisture trap, and not by hand.

Also, moisture is driven out of air when it is compressed, which is why good air compressor reservoirs have a small valve at the bottom to allow that moisture to be "blown" out! Making the air really dry for tyre filling, as well as having a moisture catcher, to make sure that paint spraying from the same compressor can be safely made.....water in the paint is a huge NO NO!!.

The same has ("had" may be better than "has", as it may have been automated since I last did truck maintenance!) to be done to Truck air pressure reservoirs on a regular basis, for the same reason, to get rid of the water forced out of damp air....

I personally believe that assuming for the moment that your tyres were not pumped up from empty only with simple hand pumps, and not regularly topped up by the same method (now NOT to be recommended for reasons of moisture maybe?), that the air will be relatively dry inside the tyres.

I know that my tyres are ONLY filled by an air compressor (I only pump bike tyres by hand!!), and from the same source if they need a top up, usually in the fall as temperatures start to drop!

For myself, with trailer towing from time to time, my car tyres always have the maximum loaded air pressure (I have mentioned that more than once on CR4 over the years) as I find that far better for load carrying, better for raking, better for fuel consumption and better for tyre wear. I have never even seen them drop to the "standard" pressure for that vehicle either!

I have done it for many, many years and still not worn a tyre in the middle as shown in all the car manuals!!!Those tyres, so worn, would have been at twice the normal air pressure, or more, to achieve such damage to my mind!

I wonder if someone here can test some air from a tyre or two (Lynn maybe?) for moisture content and see if the air is as wet as you believe. Putting a Hygrometer in a big empty plastic bag, then filling the bag from a tyre or two, for example!!

Being around the tyre workers, during tyre changes over many years, (That's how I caught companies, damaging my car TWICE, because the dummies did not know how to properly put that car on the lift!), I have yet to see, even on cold days, a single drop of moisture, or experience rusted steel rims, that is where the tyre sits and air is under pressure!!!

In fact, on my steel "winter rims", that is the only place where the paint looks like new still, very clean and no rust!!! Sadly, I did not take photos!! And those rims are nearly 11 years old!!!!

Thats my take!!

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#81
In reply to #79

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/22/2016 5:53 AM

I do remember (going back a long time) when deflating a tyre by removing the valve core, that small pieces (2-3mm) of ice would start being shot out, due of course to the air cooling on expansion. I suppose it could have been from moisture in the atmosphere, but my guess is it was from moist air in the tyre. It might just have been on HGV tyres, I'm not 100% sure.

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#82
In reply to #79

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/22/2016 8:47 AM

My simple approach to the subject is to consider the basic problem, You have a tyre on the wheel with no water in it - As an aside if a tyre gets rainwater in such as when stored in open air it is very difficult to empty out (the profile of the tyre holds some water whatever angle held to tip it out) and the garage wont bother about a drop of water when they fit it to the wheel.

But assuming it is dry, then the only source of water is in the atmosphere (as a vapour) and will stay a vapour when in the tyre - until the pressure is high enough (or the temperature low enough) to cause saturation and condensation.

The basic parameters to consider are the relative humidity RH, pressure and temperature of the ambient atmosphere (usually easy to establish).

The simple relationship is 'when you double the (absolute) pressure, you double he RH. The temperature will rise temporarily for the moment - but it will equate to ambient after a while.

Knowing the atmospheric RH and pressure - the RH in the tyre now depends on the working pressure of the tyre.

For example - if ambient RH is 40% and 0 barg - with a tyre at 2 barg using a simple pump - the RH in the tyre will become (2+1)/(0+1) x 40% = 120% (it cannot exceed 100% so the excess 20% drops out as liquid). Should you let some the (100% RH) air out of the tyre - at ambient pressure, the RH will be 33.3%.

It will be different if a compressor is used say - at 9 barg - then the RH becomes 400% so 3/4 of the vapour drops out as water (and removed with suitable filters before it gets to the tyre). and this air when in the tyre at 2 barg will have an RH of (9+1)/(2+1) = 33.3% - and if some is let out of the tyre will drop to 10%RH.

he interesting point is that in the first example there will be water in the tyre but an RH reading of 33.3% of the sample will suggest the air is dry.

In the second example, using an air compressor (and suitable filters)(as is likely in a garage), then the tyre is likely to be free of water. Which seems to bear out working experience.

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#83
In reply to #82

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/22/2016 9:18 AM

If you're having new tyres fitted there shouldn't be any water in them, unless the guys are working outside in the rain!

If you're swapping round used tyres and you're fussy about water, you could tip most of it out and mop the rest up with rag or paper.

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#90
In reply to #82

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/22/2016 12:28 PM

GA

Some more common sense!!

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#92
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/22/2016 1:15 PM

But that's applying rational scientific analysis and reasoning to a real life scenario.

There's no room for 'Yea but, What if' to fit in there and thusly makes it universally invalid for counter argument and debate and as you know all real life justification for scientifically implausible actions is and has to be based on 'Yea but, What if' type conditions even if they are a 1:10,000,000+ chance occurrence.

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#93
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/22/2016 1:52 PM

So nothing is knowable or reasonable because 100.000% accuracy is impossible.

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#13
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/19/2016 11:36 AM

Yes, but I have NEVER seen any form of internal rubber degradation or internal rusting due to moisture or oxygen in over 36 years of driving. Well over 600,000 miles and many, many tires.

There are scientific principles that support this practice but outside of severe duty operation, there is NO practical reason to use anything other than what we breathe every day. The benefits are buried so far down in the noise, few people will realize any benefit other than having smoke blown . . .

P.S. Helium is a much smaller molecule so it will diffuse through the rubber faster.

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#4

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/18/2016 9:15 PM

Sort of.

It has slightly less thermal expansion and contraction rates than normal air and the rate of loss is negligibly less as well but for the average person in their average vehicle it's not worth what they charge for it by any means.

Now if you were running a very high performance race car where seeing tire temperatures go from ambient to 200+F over periods of minutes that lower rate of thermal expansion would be of value to keep the cold VS hot tire traction and handling characteristics more uniform.

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#10
In reply to #4

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/19/2016 8:22 AM

heres a little science that speaks to oxidation, molecular size etc. the narrator is a bit crude with language but gets right to the point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCnWvMleVD0 its worth the time to sit through for a complete explanation.

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#6

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/18/2016 9:58 PM

Do the people who fill tires with nitrogen purge all the air first? Pulling a vacuum on the tire would not be a good idea, therefore the way to achieve higher concentration of nitrogen is to iteratively fill the tire with pure nitrogen and let it all out.

First fill of the tire to 2 bar will cut the oxygen in about half to about 10%. Let all that out and fill it again. Now you are down to about 5% oxygen. Let it all out again and fill it a third time with pure nitrogen and now you are at the accepted limit of under 3% to get the desired 'benefit'.

I seriously doubt the tire shops who fill with nitrogen do that.

It's not (totally) bogus, just a total rip off for anyone who isn't operating a multi-million dollar race team.

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#20
In reply to #6

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/20/2016 3:30 AM

You have the right idea but your forgetting that there is already 1 BarA in the tire already. Your 'about' right though.

Initial Concentration in % / Purge Pressure in BarA = Diluted concentration %

So if you put 2 BarG N2 in

21% O2 / 3 BarA = 7% O2

Let it all go and repeat

7% O2 / 3 BarA = 2.33% O2

So your already under your 3 % target

I agree that there are benefits but negligible and I can't be bothered.

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#98
In reply to #6

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/23/2016 2:09 PM

Aircraft aboard aircraft carriers use N2 in their tires. I believe they replace all the air with N2. The pressure used is very high, so the tire is placed inside a steel cage while filling in case the tire explodes. This is done because the tire could have a flaw caused from damage upon landing or takeoff. I would suspect commercial airliners would take the same precautions. As to it being a scam, yes because it tells the impressionable public it is a necessity. It might be OK for racing tires, but for the everyday driver, no.

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#99
In reply to #98

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/23/2016 7:43 PM

its quite "okay" for both, the question isn't quality but more of cost and value. Joe sixpack does just fine with everyday compressed air and keeps money in his pocket instead of the tire shops cash register

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#7

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/18/2016 9:59 PM

Better than plain air, but not worth the effort for most of us....and ridiculously overpriced at $20-150....I have one of those little air compressors that plugs into the cigarette lighter socket = Free....

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#8

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/18/2016 10:14 PM

Edmunds says it has marginal benefits, but is probably not worth the extra cost.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/should-you-fill-your-cars-tires-with-nitrogen.html

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#9
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/18/2016 10:24 PM

Tire Rack has a similar wishy-washy story. I think these folks do this so as to not anger the charlatans who perpetrate this fraud on the gullible masses.

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#11

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/19/2016 9:55 AM

Pure N2 gas will significantly reduce tire wear and vehicle accidents. Without oxygen in the gas an internal combustion engine cannot run, drivers will suffocate. If the vehicle cannot move then no accident or tire wear can occur.

{Ahem, pure N2 will be placed only inside the tire.}

[What about the gas outside of the tire?]

{That obviously has to be air.}

Topping off the pressure in a tire with pure N2 gas is a scam.

{No, the tire has pure N2 inside.}

[How in the world do you do that? You cannot create a vacuum in a tire.]

{Why not?}

[The bead seal will break and let air back into the tire. To get to 32 PSI one adds about 2 atmospheres of gas to the existing gas.]

One can never get pure N2 in a tire. Topping off the pressure in a tire with pure N2 gas is a scam!

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#14

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/19/2016 4:02 PM

Yet another solution looking for a problem to solve.

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#15

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/19/2016 10:11 PM

It has something to do with mainly compressibility and heat related expansion. Ride comfort is always a function of the elastic and damping capacity of the wheel assembly in general. A say a pure N2 is different properties than air.

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#16

Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/19/2016 10:36 PM

When we went through this a few years ago I think someone suggested that (near pure) nitrogen in military aircraft tires would help make tire fires self extinguishing. I don't recall if that was presented as a credible statement or just an interesting one.

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#17
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Re: is nitrogen for tires a scam?

11/20/2016 12:03 AM

It's used in commercial aircraft too.

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#18

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 12:07 AM

If you consider the cost/benefit ratio over the life of a tire. I'd say YES.

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#19

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 12:08 AM

After 16 replies, I agree with the majority: any perceived benefit is almost entirely psychological, and definitely not worth the cost.

I've had N2-filled tires, and could not notice any difference whatsoever. I DID definitely notice the change when I switched from bias-ply to radial-ply tires (quite a few years ago).

Now since you asked for science, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned water. If the tires are filled at a time and place where the temperature and humidity are high, then there is a small but significant amount of water vapor in the tires. When the weather changes to much colder, some of that water will condense/freeze, thereby lowering the pressure in the tire.

Whether that lower pressure is good or bad may be a matter of opinion. When I was young, I intentionally lowered the pressure in my rear tire, both on my bicycle, and later on my motor scooter, for better traction in the snow. That too may have been psychological, but it seemed to work...

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#22
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 6:24 AM

I take it you didn't watch or at least pay attention to the video link Fredski has in post 10.

At the extreme maybe a grams worth per tire.

That's why no one mentioned it. Its irrelevantly small compared to actual mass and weight of th the tire itself.

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#29
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 11:33 AM

At the time I wrote the post, you're right, I hadn't watched the video, so I started to watch the video... If you hadn't admonished me for not watching it, I would have stopped watching after a couple of minutes, but since you did, I watched the whole thing, including the two Buick ads.

Finally, I believe in reason#8, he mentioned that "Nitrogen is dry". BUT, he only mentioned the weight, of the water, NOT the condensation/freezing. Without doing any rigorous math, his value of about a gram of water per tire seems reasonable, assuming that the air compressor used had some form of water separator/drier.

Now at just above 2 atm pressure and 25°C ( a reasonable temperature of the air when added), a gram of water vapor occupies roughly a liter of volume. If the tire gets down to something like -20°C (not unusual in your state), most of that water vapor will have frozen, and the volume of that gram of water (ice/frost) will be close to 1 cc, or 0.001 liter, so as far as tire pressure is concerned, the tire has lost a liter of "compressed air" (2 liters of atmospheric pressure "air"). I calculate the volume of my tire at about 33 liters, so the loss of one liter of air corresponds to a loss of roughly one pound of air pressure.

Now a loss of one pound of pressure isn't a big deal, but it's a whole lot more significant that the difference in weight from replacing a liter of Nitrogen with a liter of water vapor.

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#35
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 9:45 PM

I agree that freezing water vapor can be a plausible problem with tire pressure but only if one never checks tire pressure between temperature extremes. It does explain why using "dry" nitrogen for aircraft landing tires makes sense. A tire that has been at 40,000 ft for the past hour will not have ice inside the tire vaporized upon descent in time for touchdown.

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#36
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 10:15 PM

Right! ...and since I fly almost once a week, that's important to me!

I have to admit that I've gotten lax in checking tire pressure, except occasionally checking my spare (and I DO have one in each car). For several years I've depended entirely on the regular service checks, and haven't seen a low tire on either of my cars for many years.

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#38
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 11:49 PM

"...haven't seen a low tire on...my cars for many years."

I did about two years ago, due to a 40o overnight temperature drop.

Had just checked the pressure a day earlier, and all was OK.

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#47
In reply to #29

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 7:12 AM

I have never seen water in a tyre in any way shape or form, though pumping up with a simple pump (not a compressor, which would normally have a water trap), will bring some moisture with it!

What I feel is that:-

a) the amount of moisture will probably be far less than a gram, as where I live, initial filling is done with compressor air and only top ups (very seldom unless a nail is present!) MIGHT bring some moisture. So I feel that #8 is also wrong for most people. Also, I have to change from summer to winter tyres and back to summer each and every year, as its an offense to have summer tyres on a car and driving it "UNDER WINTER CONDITIONS" of under 4°C or snow or ice on the roads. Tyres are on their respective wheels, and when being changed, are then each time correctly inflated with dry air from a compressor!

b) The change in air volume/pressure/temperature in the tyre, when driving is usually far more dramatic, and needs to be carefully understood. Most tyres that burst were driven too hard while "under-inflated" or overloaded! They get really hot and basically "melt", so no drops of water there!!! IT'S STEAM!!

So I see it for the average motorist as still being a scam.....as I have read or seen nothing here to change that viewpoint!!!

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#51
In reply to #47

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 7:54 AM

I have never seen water in a tyre in any way shape or form, though pumping up with a simple pump (not a compressor, which would normally have a water trap), will bring some moisture with it!

Depends.

Utility and farm tractors use fluid in their tires for ballast. Some common materials include water, calcium chloride, antifreeze, windshield washer fluid, beet juice and polyurethane foam.

I know that when changing tires, some of the components gets watered down to make up for fluid loss.

Neighbor of ours, the fluid froze in the tire. That made for an interesting ride.

Of course there are innertubes to content some of the fluid so it doesn't react to the rim.

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#66
In reply to #51

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 12:20 PM

I don't drive farm implements!!

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#56
In reply to #19

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 9:30 AM

There is a lot more valid science to this than there is to filling your tires with nitrogen. Soft tires will put more surface area in contact with the road thus valuable on snow and ice. Increases the wear though and decreases gas mileage. The molecular weight of nitrogen is actually 12% smaller than the MW of oxygen and so would diffuse faster. Also, the air in your tires is 78% nitrogen anyway. Any difference would never be noticed in everyday use.

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#21

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 5:37 AM

I agree.

There are always stupid "deals" around for the simple minded....

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#23

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 8:29 AM

No-one has mentioned the dihydrogen monoxide that is also in the air in the tyre. There's very little dihydrogen monoxide in the nitrogen that is used in place of air; perhaps that is why it is used?

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#25
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 9:15 AM

I wish you silly Brits would learn to spell "tire"

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#26
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 9:44 AM

I believe it was probably "simplified" in spelling for the US market many years ago, because so many were getting it wrong!!

As are many other words after they have crossed the Atlantic in a westwards direction.

Although many Americans and their Schools/Universities still say they speak/teach English, basically they don't. The are all speaking American, a modified version....

I have absolutely no problems with that, nor do most Brits as we can easily understand both, but some Americans do appear to have problems!!!

No idea why?

Some of them are here?

A general history of Tyres!

"A tyre (British English) or tire (American English)[1] is a ring-shaped vehicle component that covers the wheel's rim to protect it and enable better vehicle performance....."

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 10:20 AM

The British spelling does help to differentiate between the noun and the verb homonyms, but only in print.

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#30
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 11:58 AM

There would be synergy by filling tyres with nytrogen.

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#45
In reply to #26

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 5:43 AM

<..."simplified" in spelling for the US market ...>

It must help there, surely?

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 10:20 AM

YOU'RE FYRED!

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#43
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 5:37 AM

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#44
In reply to #25

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 5:40 AM

Location and nationality are two different things.

In today's interconnected world, nationality is of lower importance than ever it was - reference the Canadian Immigration website, which crashed before it was trumped...

<unsubscribes on the basis of unacceptable political overtones>

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#52
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 7:55 AM

sorry,... I thought was funny

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#61
In reply to #25

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 11:33 AM

Is that where he picked up that speech impediment?

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#73
In reply to #25

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 4:48 PM

I know. Every time they say "tyre", I think of Tyre and Sidon.

Nebuchadnezzar says air up or shut up! But he only had wooden wheels.

Racing enthusiasts around this neck of the woods swear that it improves handling stability between start and finish. It is more about wet air than it is oxygen, although I could envision some minor attack by oxygen on rubber, leading to micro-crack formation as being important, although much more likely with OH radical or ozone present.

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#85
In reply to #73

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/22/2016 11:41 AM

nanomicro

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#86
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/22/2016 11:44 AM

Yeah but nitrogen is "cooler" than running on air.

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#87
In reply to #73

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/22/2016 11:46 AM

Where your neck of the woods is located, I wouldn't think "wet air" would be a significant problem.

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#89
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/22/2016 12:06 PM

It is when it is over 100 °F, and the humidity is pushing 60%. Did you forget we have thunderstorms here in the summer?

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#91
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/22/2016 1:10 PM

Not like where I was - Houston / Beaumont. You can set your clock by the thunderstorms. Same time every day. Humidity 60% - that is a dry day in Houston.

As a side note, the coldest day I recall from my time in that area, was a day right at 32 degrees and nearly 100% humidity - made we wish to be back home in 15 degrees and 20%.

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#94
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/23/2016 5:06 AM

I lived in Singapore for several years, a dry day was 95% RH. Most days were 100% RH, the whole year round.....

I still never saw any water in tyres we replaced.....

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#24

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 8:42 AM

I agree that nitrogen is mostly a scam, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that moisture containing gas could affect the reliability of pressure sensors. After all, air compressors often pump out very damp air which will condense to water during cooler periods. Liquid inside the electronics of the sensors likely won't improve their reliability.

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#31

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 1:41 PM

It just isn't worth it for personal vehicle tires. It isn't really a scam because the positive effects measurably real, just not big enough to warrant the cost of the gas.

Best to put your money elsewhere for bigger returns.

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#32

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 3:34 PM

I got one of those cigarette lighter air compressors and it's a piece of junk. I can outperform it with a hand pump. In fact when I switch from summer to winter tires and vice versa I top them off with a hand pump. It's quicker than trying to find some place that has an air station anymore. Plus I get some exercise.

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 3:40 PM

Agreed, the cigarette lighter protection fuse is small (current wise) which limits add-on accessory power and hence usefulness. I have a hand pump permanently located in my boot for emergencies.

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#34

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 4:02 PM

I found an antique hand pump and placed it behind my spare in my van. It's saved me at least a couple of times.

One time I volunteered for this bicycle repair clinic and the pumps they had had really fat ends on them and these kids were showing up with bicycles that had a million spokes in the wheels. The heads wouldn't fit between the spokes. So I got the old pump out of my van, which had a brass screw-on head, and let the kids play with that. The kids had more fun "screwing" around with the tires.

My main tire pump is a classic Scwhinn model with the built in air gauge. I have two of them and one without a gauge. Because I ride bicycles I've accumulated an assortment of frame pumps and collapsible pockets pumps too. Some of them work only with Presta valves that are common on skinny tires. To use my old floor pump on a Presta valve I purchased adapters. The pump I carry on my bicycle is convertible because I might be riding an older bicycle that has Schrader valve stems.

And I like to carry a ball needle. You never know when you need to pump up a ball.

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#37

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/20/2016 11:15 PM

"Better tire-pressure retention: ... In 2006, Consumer Reports conducted a year-long study to determine how much air loss was experienced in tires filled with nitrogen versus those filled with air. The results showed that nitrogen did reduce pressure loss over time, but it was only a 1.3 psi difference from air-filled tires. Among 31 pairs of tires, the average loss of air-filled tires was 3.5 psi from the initial 30 psi setting. Nitrogen-filled tires lost an average of 2.2 psi from the initial setting. Nitrogen won the test, but not by a significant margin.
.
.
Improved fuel economy: The EPA says that under-inflated tires can lower gas mileage by 0.3 percent for every 1 psi drop in pressure of all four tires. The theory is that since nitrogen loses pressure at a slower rate than air, you are more likely to be at the correct psi and therefore get better fuel economy.
.
.
If you are proactive and check your tire pressure at least once a month, you can offset this difference with free air, and you won't need expensive nitrogen. We think this invalidates the "better fuel economy with nitrogen" argument."
.
.
http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/should-you-fill-your-cars-tires-with-nitrogen.html
Shall we talk about oxygen-free copper?

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#41
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 12:41 AM

Are you implying that oxygen-free copper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-free_copper) is a waste of money?

If you are using it to wire a house, then yes, it is. But there are lots of applications, commonly involving vacuum, that require OFC.

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#62
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 11:54 AM

Okay?

Some of us would like to know how you made that jump from Nitrogen in tires to Oxygen Free copper being used in special application like a high vacuum sealed container environment and figured the two are relevant?

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#63
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 12:01 PM

That's precisely what I was asking! See the bottom of post #37.

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#49
In reply to #37

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 7:32 AM

GA

I like your "style", it makes sense!!

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#75
In reply to #37

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 6:02 PM

It was in the video

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#39

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 12:35 AM

Used in Fonterra milk tankers in NZ. Nitrogen is extremely temperature stable and therefore does not significantly change the shape of an inflated tyre once warm. Results in very consistent wear which is significant when trucks are doing hundreds of thousands of km'south per year.

Questionable benefit for domestic use.

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#50
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 7:47 AM

Used in Fonterra milk tankers in NZ. Nitrogen is extremely temperature stable and therefore does not significantly change the shape of an inflated tyre once warm.

Each year if I didn't check my air pressure on the tires in the fall, the first cold snap, my low air pressure warning light would go off on my car.

We only got around 20 degrees recently and it went off yesterday. I think it more the tires, Tread is still good, but the tires age are close to retirement due to breaking down.

Tires are 6 years old.

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#40

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 12:39 AM

Theoretically possible small gain, considerable cost, not worth it. Most tires probably die from tread wear long before internal oxidation.

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#42

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 3:09 AM

Not sure if someone posted this video already, but Fifth Gear has tested this and they found that there was no difference. They actually found that the pressure rise was higher with Nitrogen, which is likely because the machines used don't do a very good job at separating moisture from the gasses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmnZ4-EUbIk

Also, the molecule size difference is not so much (2.7%).

Nitrogen in tires is bogus :)

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#46
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 5:55 AM

I assure you that you would use nitrogen in your tyres in Motorsport when you get spat off the track while other guys pass you by.

its about consistency of control of tyre temperature .

tyre temperature is related to grip.

tyre rubber compound composition and construction is a 'black art' that is maintained in as much secrecy as possible.

the 5th gear video is a failure to comprehend by those who made it.

for the average street car ? Waste of money.

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#55
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 8:58 AM

Maybe if you put the tire in a vacuum chamber and then filled it with nitrogen. Otherwise, I'm still not convinced it makes any difference in anything except maybe F1 races ;)

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#48

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 7:25 AM

It's a scam if you are paying a lot extra for doubtful unquantifiable benefits, especially if your tyres could be filled by an ordinary compressor with an N2 label stuck on it.

Maybe a good idea if it was guaranteed N2 and there was no extra cost

The cost benefit argument of O2/N2 for tyres ranks alongside bullets made of lead should not be used because there is a risk of dying from lead poisoning.

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#65
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 12:18 PM

LOL!

Great joke and very fitting!!!

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#53

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 8:32 AM

Nitrogen - that's no fun. some of the latest "air" canisters for emergency bicycle tire refill now come , thanks to the "green people", with much less harmful propane in them. Sounds like a blast to me.

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#54
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 8:46 AM

This off topic, but when you mentioned propane. A few months back I say a video of a guy changing a tire with starter fluid and a propane torch. This wasn't the video, but it looked like he used a lot more starter fluid.... too much as compared to what I first saw.

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#57
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 9:43 AM

Fortunately, my tubeless bike tires seat just fine with a shot of 80 psi air - no fire required. Actually, I have used the inverse - soapy water on a tough to seat bike tire.

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#59
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 9:54 AM

Dish wash soap, that's what I used.

My first time was when I was 11-12 years old, on our lawn mower. It was a struggle. Being on a farm, I used baler twine, did a half hitch around the tire pulled tight and filled it with air. Since both tires the bead had broke, the first one worked great, I was pretty dam proud of myself, the second took an hour and a half that humbled me.

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#67
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Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 12:38 PM

Great video!

One of the videos that came up as an option to play after yours finished was this one:-

Bikes, Butts and Boobs!!!

I feel that is a good name for it!!! Tell me what you think!!

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 12:56 PM

Friend of mine went there last this past year... when ever its held.... I have heard from him yet.

The Big one is held in Sturgis, South Dakota. Some times, I wish I still had my bike, Some times not.

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#78
In reply to #54

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/22/2016 4:21 AM

Agreed. I think I would have had a bucket of water handy too!

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#64
In reply to #53

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 12:04 PM

And that's how much more dangerous than say a thin plastic tank full of highly flammable liquid hanging inches from the highly abrasive road surface that gets pumped at a moderate pressure through plastic and rubber hoses into the compartment right in front of where you sit in a vehicle?

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#69
In reply to #64

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 1:06 PM

Well, the one version of the bike emergency "air" is made to hang on the seat post, right between ones legs - potentially a real "crotch rocket".

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#70
In reply to #64

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 1:57 PM

How is the snow out there? You enjoying it? I am.

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#58

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 9:54 AM

I understand this to be a racing trick. They need to be a bit closer than you or I do when they calculate the expansion due to increased temperatures. A mono-gas mixture with little chance of water vapor being present is a tad bit easier to calculate than air.

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#60

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 11:12 AM

http://www.patentbuddy.com/Inventor/Smalley-William-R/3403930#More

This is a link to the original patent. This is a person that I know personally. A little history - at the time he was a NHRA presense at the Drags in Topeka, Ks. and elsewhere. He came up with this idea to give the dragsters a little more speed ( I thought he was crazy ). The idea that this is crap for personal vehicles is right, but, a nice ploy for tire shops. It was not intended for anything but racing & later determined that airplanes could benifit. Thanks Steve

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#71

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 3:30 PM

N2 is used in aircraft tires.

Tire pressures run into 300+psi

Operating temperatures run from -50°C to ~ smoking melted rubber hot, whatever that is

[watch a few large aircraft landings if you don't know what I am talking about]

At these pressures and temperature extremes, the benefits of N2 are apparent.

Former green shirt with lots of deck time.

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#77

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/21/2016 7:50 PM

Do you think if we put helium in the tires of a monster truck we could get more "air"?

If we filled them with hydrogen maybe we could really have blast.

If the tires were fat enough would the truck float up and away?

Hydrogen molecules are so small would we be able to maintain pressure in the tires?

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#84
In reply to #77

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/22/2016 10:30 AM

Either helium or hydrogen will leak far faster than oxygen or nitrogen. And no, Linda, you won't go floating off into the sunset.

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#88

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/22/2016 12:02 PM

I learned how to flip tires so the water would gush out. Most of it anyway. It might still be a little wet on the inside. We never worried about it.

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#95

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/23/2016 12:25 PM

Here we are being told to use N2 because it is dry yet the tire monkey is going to slop a big wet soapy swab around the bead before mounting the tire to the rim.

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#96
In reply to #95

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/23/2016 1:04 PM

LOL!!!

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#97
In reply to #95

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/23/2016 1:31 PM

Indeed!

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#101
In reply to #95

Re: Is Nitrogen for Tires a Scam?

11/28/2016 12:48 PM

So true. Quit confusing us with the facts!!

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