CR4 - The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion ®
Login | Register for Engineering Community (CR4)


Previous in Forum: Rare Book: "Air-Supported Structures" by Bailly et al.   Next in Forum: Living in LEGO-Brick Housing Is Closer Than Some Think
Close
Close
Close
77 comments
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35

Building Refurbishment

11/28/2016 5:03 PM

Does anyone have a handy checklist for evaluating buildings?

I have to refurbish +\-120 buildings including steel stuctures.

Then I have to quantify everything.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
3
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 39041
Good Answers: 1532
#1

Re: Building refurbishment

11/28/2016 5:30 PM

At first blush, this question makes me think you are +/- 119 buildings in over your head if you don't even know where to start.

Your local building permitting inspector's office is the best place to begin.

Or a civil engineering firm. Or a building contractor.

COMMERCIAL BUILDING /INTERIOR REMODELING CHECKLIST ...

Free Project Management Templates fo

Checklist For The Routine Inspection Of Buildings - GSA

What makes you think you can pull this off?

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8122
Good Answers: 328
#2

Re: Building refurbishment

11/28/2016 5:42 PM

Evaluating what? "Everything" is very vague.

As Lyn said, best to employ a trained professional to do this as there are major legal, liability and safety issues involved in signing off on building condition.

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#5
In reply to #2

Re: Building refurbishment

11/28/2016 6:22 PM

Precast concrete and facebrick buildings.

Painting, fixing cracks, replacing all roofs and ceilings, some doors, door frames, windows, glazing..everything. All plumbing, mirrors, floor finishes, electricity, aircons...everything you can think of. Replacing concrete floor slabs, ramps in front of doors. Seriously everything.

There should be some way to easily count and measure defects.

Checklist I want is prob something architect like. Nevermind though.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#29
In reply to #5

Re: Building refurbishment

11/29/2016 4:35 PM

Is this at a former government nuclear weapons testing facility?

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#3

Re: Building refurbishment

11/28/2016 6:01 PM

I am the professional...lol?

Just wondered if someone had a checklist. I made my own anyway and I've completed 69 buildings and structures.

Need to do the rest of the buildings and another document.

My first approach just took a lot of time, about a full month of surveying. I want to cut some of that time.

Are you sure this is an engineering forum?

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
5
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Kiwi Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 8122
Good Answers: 328
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Building refurbishment

11/28/2016 6:21 PM

You are giving us very little to work on so much is assumed on our part, and we get many enquiries from clueless people trying to do things that they shouldn't be. Go back and reread your first post and put yourself in our shoes, how would you answer it.

What exactly (in detail) are you assessing?

If you have already done 69 buildings and structures what's wrong with the current document you have and what are you looking for (document or process wise) that would help speed up what you are already doing?

__________________
jack of all trades
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Building refurbishment

11/28/2016 6:26 PM

Everything that can possibly be part of a building and is damaged or failing. Also outside. (Not a wooden building).

Out on site I often forget to check or measure something since my checklist is quite basic.

My first question asks for a checklist for evaluating buildings for refurbishment. That is all.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#31
In reply to #6

Re: Building refurbishment

11/29/2016 4:41 PM

Whose task is it to check and measure? What about items you did not encounter on buildings 1-69? Your list must be able to grow, and have a separate list for each building, does it not?

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
4
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 39041
Good Answers: 1532
#7
In reply to #3

Re: Building refurbishment

11/28/2016 6:38 PM

"I am the professional...lol?" The question mark is appropriate.

"I want to cut some of that time". With 69 buildings under your belt, I'd have thought that you'd have come up with some time saving ideas on your own.

"Are you sure this is an engineering forum?" No, it's, CR4 - The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion ®

Patience is a virtue. Other more experienced, professional engineers here surely will be willing to help you.

In the mean time, these sites may also help you.

Civil Engineering Forum

Civil Engineering Forums" by thecivilengineer.org • Index page

What are some good online civil engineering communities or forums ...

Good luck!

<Unsubscribe>

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Building refurbishment

11/28/2016 6:55 PM

Your reply is off topic and your first reply was rude.

I just asked for a handy checklist. Building, refurbishment, checklist. Easy. Just give 1 answer. Yes I have one. Yes, but for this and that. No I dont have one.

The link you gave is a basic starting point, but not what I'm looking for since I'm way past that.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 6)
2
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 3902
Good Answers: 89
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Building refurbishment

11/28/2016 8:11 PM

Really? Thats it?

Here is the link in answer to your very basic question.

How about sharing what you have?

Maybe this gets us somewhere.

So far Nnnnnnnothing!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
2
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain, and now disconnecting as Little England and Wales (not too sure about Wales bit, either). Kettle's on.
Posts: 25643
Good Answers: 673
#19
In reply to #8

Re: Building refurbishment

11/29/2016 8:02 AM

<...Yes I have one....>

Then publish it so that it can be improved upon. Sheesh!

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain, and now disconnecting as Little England and Wales (not too sure about Wales bit, either). Kettle's on.
Posts: 25643
Good Answers: 673
#17
In reply to #3

Re: Building refurbishment

11/29/2016 7:43 AM

Provide a proposal, as around 70 have been done and therefore there must be something in place already, and let the forum improve on it. It would save subscribers a lot of time carrying out guesswork or playing "20 Questions" games, which never go down well here.

lol?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#30
In reply to #3

Re: Building refurbishment

11/29/2016 4:40 PM

Let me see: You state you already finished inspecting 69 of the +/-120 buildings. That means you have to inspect 189 buildings, and you have 120 to go, or that you already went around the block(s) when you should have stopped.

About that checklist: How about a camera (cell phone), a big chief tablet and a pencil. You pick the number. You can use a crayon if you want to. IDC

Or you could use Mobisle Notes on Android to create a list and then share it to your laptop when done.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 16884
Good Answers: 963
#10

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/28/2016 10:03 PM

As somebody who has done building renovation I can tell you that what you do is walk through the building with your subs or crew leaders or whatever assistants you have, and make a list of what needs to be done and what you want to upgrade and decide who's going to do what...decide what order things must be done in, and make a schedule....Then you make an estimate of cost...this gives a jumping off point for negotiations with the building owner....The owner then decides how much they can or are willing to spend...that then determines what level of quality and luxury the renovation will target...Then you walk through with your crew again with samples, plans, pictures, lists of specific materials that will be needed and show/tell them what is going to be done, and the time frame estimate....this will allow any personnel tweaking that needs to be done to meet the intended goals....Then the tearout of existing cabinets, fixtures, floors and anything else to be replaced....Then any structural work gets done first, then the roof, the electric and plumbing and A/C rough-in, bathroom fixtures and tile work, windows, doorframes, the sheetrock, plaster and painting rough-in, appliances and cabinets....Then the finish carpenter, paint finish, A/C start-up and check out appliances....Then the flooring is the last interior work before final inspection...Then the exterior of the building grounds landscaping and some finish....This is just from memory so.....

__________________
Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving. A.E.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
2
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 1672
Good Answers: 194
#11

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 3:43 AM

For the sequence that you are talking about, you need an asset management tool called "condition assesment" that allows you to observe, measure, record, risk assess, predict inervention timing and determine cost effective implementation of that scope of works.

You also need to determine/advise whether this is meant to be an ongoing process or are you "renewing" each building as a one-off to be handed back OR is this meant to be part of a long term management plan.

I only have 150 building in my portfolio, plus 250 pumpstations and a few others. It's really fun!!

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#12
In reply to #11

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 4:17 AM

Its once off. I wrote a really long post on what the project entails. And then I guess it never got posted. Im on my phone.

Seriously poor state buildings. Like a small town all have different functions. This asset management you refer to is supposed to be done by gov. And their budget is too small to adequetely maintain the buildings. Add to that, they are occupied by vandals an thieves who keep destroying and robbing building elements. Shoot holes into a door for fun, sell taps for beer money, etc.

Im not rewriting my entire long post. In it I gave a typical example of measuring windows and what my checklist contained and lacked.

I would have liked to see a typical check list used on site to survey and measure the existing building structure as it is, as well as broken or missing building elements. I just want to see different approaches to doing the site survey and ultimately compile a checklist to save time.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#32
In reply to #12

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 4:47 PM

Sounds like the main items needed:

1) neutron bomb to get rid of the local thugs

2) pistol to shoot the government leader (incompetent corrupt socialist no doubt)

3) case of beer to celebrate your success, go get em sparky!

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 39041
Good Answers: 1532
#33
In reply to #32

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 6:02 PM

"pistol to shoot the government leader (incompetent corrupt socialist no doubt)"

You just (maybe) elected him and you already want to shoot him?

By damn you got smart in a hurry. Was it all those 3:00AM coke fueled revenge tweets that did it for you?

I think Nnnnnnnn just doesn't understand intellectual property rights, copyrights or work product protection.

I'm desperately trying to understand how he could "get fired" for publishing a (obviously generic) checklist on CR4.

Hey, but that's just me.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#41
In reply to #33

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 8:46 AM

Seriously, I live in the United States, and yes, I voted for Donald J. Trump, and will continue to support his administration. I was referring to some other dismal place on Earth surface (or subterranean hellish place) in my previous post.

You sir, are a laugh riot on wheels.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 39041
Good Answers: 1532
#43
In reply to #41

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 8:56 AM

As much as I fear very deeply for the future, let's hope we can still laugh in a year or two.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 465
Good Answers: 21
#45
In reply to #12

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 10:47 AM

Chicago?

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16195
Good Answers: 617
#13

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 5:22 AM

You say you have a check list.
If you'd posted that list, you would get some helpful suggestions to tidy it up or simplify/reduce it.
This forum responds well to people who show that they have done some work first, because we get a lot of people wanting us to do the job while they take the pay or get the marks in the case of homework.
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 5:42 AM

Yes I understand that, I cant share my company's intellectual property on the interwebs.

Register to Reply
4
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16195
Good Answers: 617
#15
In reply to #14

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 6:02 AM

Ah, but you want us to share our intellectual property, so you can then make your intellectual property better and then you won't share it again ?
Bit of a one way street don't you think...? And that's how the rich get richer... all take, no give.
I'm out.
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 6:50 AM

Lol, funny. It's not about getting rich, it's about liability and risk. So yes I understand if you don't want to share. If you are PR there is a substantial risk to yourself. If I provide you with a design, I can be held liable if it fails. If I provide documents to the interwebs, someone who should not use it might use it. I can share it with someone in a confidential manner and put a disclaimer on it, but then according to company rules I will get fired. Those rules are mainly there for protection.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 6)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain, and now disconnecting as Little England and Wales (not too sure about Wales bit, either). Kettle's on.
Posts: 25643
Good Answers: 673
#18
In reply to #16

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 7:46 AM

Subscribers to this forum do so anonymously via an username, so as to avoid <...liability and risk...>. There is a disclaimer on this forum to that effect.

lol?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain, and now disconnecting as Little England and Wales (not too sure about Wales bit, either). Kettle's on.
Posts: 25643
Good Answers: 673
#20

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 8:16 AM

Where is this? Cuba?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#21
In reply to #20

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 10:13 AM

Worse.

Btw do I have to prove that Im not a robot multiple times or did I miss some activation link?

Register to Reply Score 2 for Off Topic
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain, and now disconnecting as Little England and Wales (not too sure about Wales bit, either). Kettle's on.
Posts: 25643
Good Answers: 673
#22
In reply to #21

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 10:21 AM

Location can be entered here.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#23
In reply to #22

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 10:39 AM

That link looks suspicious.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 16884
Good Answers: 963
#25
In reply to #23

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 12:36 PM

Vietnam...?

__________________
Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving. A.E.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#27
In reply to #25

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 1:44 PM

I'm not giving the location as it is top secret. Actually stamped with a top secret stamp and and then published by a newspaper in extreme detail. Haha.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 1984
Good Answers: 62
#28
In reply to #27

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 2:17 PM

Then I guess we should not be discussing this!

<unsubscribe>

__________________
Tom - "Hoping my ship will come in before the dock rots!"
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NYC until mid 2015, currently NC
Posts: 516
Good Answers: 8
#35
In reply to #27

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 12:17 AM

Sounds like you're talking about Area 51.

__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain, and now disconnecting as Little England and Wales (not too sure about Wales bit, either). Kettle's on.
Posts: 25643
Good Answers: 673
#38
In reply to #27

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 6:08 AM

<unsubscribes>

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member Fans of Old Computers - PDP 11 - New Member Technical Fields - Architecture - New Member Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Maine, USA
Posts: 1984
Good Answers: 62
#24

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 12:35 PM

So the solution is a "better" list. What's the problem with the current list? Is it too long, missing information, hard to use, out of date...give us some idea of what problem we are trying to help with other than blindly re-doing everything you have already done.

__________________
Tom - "Hoping my ship will come in before the dock rots!"
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#26
In reply to #24

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 1:38 PM

The problem is I had no standard list to work with from the start. The list is entirely my own creation using common things I would likely find on site. Then I have a scope which is very broad i.e. dont upgrade anything, replace/repair everything that is defective and prolong the lifetime of the structures. Also included electrical, fire safety, disabled, etc. I need something standard that covers all building elements but from a repair viewpoint. The buildings contain a bit of everything. I have already given up on finding something. I'll just adjust the one I have with a bit of effort.

I usually do weird projects nobody else wants to touch. I'm prob done with this thread anyway, not likely to continue replying.

Register to Reply Score 2 for Off Topic
Anonymous Poster #1
#40
In reply to #26

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 6:30 AM

What a complete waste of time.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Hemet, Land of milk and honey.
Posts: 876
Good Answers: 20
#34

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/29/2016 11:07 PM

Maybe Ninn lives on a small planet in one of the outer rim territories. The priests there were often quite secretive, especially when the went begging for information with their clay bowls.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#36

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 2:38 AM

Obviously this thread is here and there and everywhere.

I will start a new and better thread later with detailed examples.

Actually, I don't really need help, I was just attempting to interact with the forum.

I found the forum while googling a really bad question someone once asked me, then I registered and it took weeks before I could post.

Peace.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Anonymous Poster #1
#39
In reply to #36

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 6:10 AM

You don't really need help?

What a complete waste of time.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#42
In reply to #36

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 8:47 AM

Well, after all, denial is one of the stages of the grieving process.

Are you grieving that you bid this job?

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#53
In reply to #42

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 4:35 PM

I'm not the boss. This project is an old thing from 2002, handed to me by my boss. I have to do it alone since we're still being paid on 2002 fees.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 1672
Good Answers: 194
#37

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 4:21 AM

For buildings as with many modern items, they do consist of combinations of relatively common and simple items.

For valuation purposes, building would be reviewed on the basis of construction costs, plus "locality" appeal.

In Australia, there are a couple of industry accepted sources for component valuation including factors for locality. One is "Rawlinson's" and the other is ?????.

They cosider buildings as a set of components, providing indication for frame consruction, lining, floor covering and painting/trim, itemised by trade and end use. Everything is considered in a logical unit of measure.

I would sugges that you develop a list of standard costs and then "factor" that for the work neessary.

For instance, a house may have 100 linear meters of inernal walls.

If they only need re-painting, then at 2.4 m high and 2 coats, you will need around 50L of paint,with the associated labour.

If they need cladding, then you have to remove the old, fit new, plaster that, then 3 coats of paint, etc. Doors have 2 sides and take aroud 0.5L of paint.

Once you have that,you can then go into a house and determine whether it's "just paint" or "significant renewal" and calculate the rate for that portion. Same for ceilings,floors,electrical, plumbing,exterior walls, roof, windows and so on.

I would suggest having only three levels (No work required/minor decorative work required/Significant work required) so that it doesn't get overly complicated.

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#44
In reply to #37

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 9:35 AM

Going back to the topic heading. The project is about the refurbishment of buildings. That means that they are old and need to fixed. The structures are still in tact, but damaged. My company is a team of consultants. My job is to quantify the extent of the work that needs to be done to fix these buildings, and then estimate the costs involved. Then I compile a contract. Part of the contract is a schedule of quantities. It has an item, description, measurement unit, and the rate per unit is supplied by the contractor. A contractor will be appointed to do the actual work, and I will be there to guide the contractor and check that he follows specification. (apparently everyone didn't understand all this when I said I have to refurbish buildings and quantify everything)

I need to clarify what I meant when I said checklist. A list of the elements that are part of a building, placed in categories that make sense. Normally used to check whether said elements are still in tact during the evaluation of a building's condition. My checklist is in no way similar to the checklist I was asking for.

I developed my checklist in order to quantify all the needed work, it's more about surveying than condition assessment. The condition is 'completely fucked' across the board, everything either needs repair or to be replaced. It's down to measuring what is broken.

I split the documents and my checklist into categories i.e. civil works - stormwater drainage, roads and ancillary works, fencing, water and sewer networks.

Building works - plumbing and drainage, floors, walls (includes windows and doors), painting, electrical, roof trusses and ceilings, roof coverings and side cladding, mechanical installations, fire safety, repair of steel structures.

Most items are focused on the repair or replace of existing elements. To repair windows you replace glass, replace putty, paint the frames, replace missing handles and fittings and in a worst case replace the entire window frame with fittings. There is no condition in between.

Even if the condition of one window frame is quite good, and the paint doesn't seem that old, and there is no rust on it, it still needs to be painted, because 1 year later it might need a coat of paint and it will probably be 20 years later before anyone thinks it's time to do some maintenance on it.

Checklist is like:

Windows: type, amount, sketch, whatever.

Roof trusses: (steel/wood), roof pitch, overhang, etc. (I never checked purlin spacing. I have to put new cladding on and the old roof cladding was like 1-2mm thick, and the new cladding is max 0,53mm thick).

How would a QS normally quantify work? This is essentially what I'm doing, but it's a bit more engineering based. Any person wouldn't really know why a wall is cracking or how to properly fix the problem, aside from fixing the crack with filler.

In no way did I ever ask anyone here to try and improve my checklist for me. I call it a checklist, but it's more like a kind form to complete.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 3902
Good Answers: 89
#46
In reply to #44

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 10:50 AM

I might have missed it but did you ever tell us what buildings exactly are you talking about? Residential? Industrial? Mixed use? A whole suburb? Chinese Village?

Do they have common bathrooms, kitchens? Empty? Been used besides being abused? Offices? What?

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#55
In reply to #46

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 5:19 PM

Mix. Like a town. There is even a fuel bay. I call it a fuel bay, Americans call it a 'gas station'. Actually we commonly refer to it as a petrol station or garage. It is that place, you know, where you park your car to refuel it. Residences, offices, lecture halls, libraries, stores, workshops, a hanger (aircraft), garages (place to keep vehicles) etc. Canopies, swimmingpools, high security buildings to store special dangerous things like, I dont know, maybe bombs and guns. Its obviously a _________.

Terminology. Its a problem. Especially when people make ones like 'punch list'.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Out of your mind! Not in sight!
Posts: 3902
Good Answers: 89
#58
In reply to #55

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 12:17 AM

A fire restoration is maybe the way to go. Very basic costs if done right, and if done wrong .... well.

Would save the money on the evaluation and I guess the costs for the architect would be not too much different.

Start with a catalogue for the different building categories.

Honestly I think a quick google should give you something with the correct search terms. Like Library, Restauration, checklist

Good luck!

__________________
Common Sense Dictates
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 39041
Good Answers: 1532
#47
In reply to #44

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 11:05 AM

That sounds like a Punch List© to me.

Of course you can't use that name because it belongs to me.

There are dozens of Punch Lists© on the internet that you are free to copy and make your own, for security reasons.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Commissariat de Police, Nouvions, occupied France, 1942.
Posts: 2482
Good Answers: 76
#48
In reply to #44

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 1:56 PM

Given that you've stated, twice, that you don't want any more help, you really need to go away. I'm amazed that no-one has given you a load of abuse for wasting their time. I don't mind helping where I can, though I won't be helping you when you next post. You're a scoundrel.

__________________
Good moaning!
Register to Reply Score 2 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: NYC until mid 2015, currently NC
Posts: 516
Good Answers: 8
#57
In reply to #44

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 11:07 PM

I recall you mentioning that you had prepared a rather complete list of the information that you were requesting help with or advice on, and it was somehow lost in electronic transmission. If this is what you were talking about, you should have opened with it, and I'm sure that the members of the forum would have tried to be more helpful.

Now that we know something of what you are trying to accomplish, I can see a marked difference in the responses of the forum members.

Someone suggested that you utilize a spreadsheet approach, and faced with your problem that's the approach I would take.

Use the worst building that you have encountered so far as a starting point for listing all of the items that require fixing and repairing. If you encounter a building requiring more work, add the additional items to your spreadsheet; since the additional items do not need work in the buildings inspected, these additions were not deemed necessary and no harm is done.

The great thing about the spreadsheet approach is that during the inspection you only have to indicate what work is needed (e.g. plumbing fixtures, masonry, paint, windows, etc.). You can then use this sheet to construct another and determine the cost of the items used for the necessary repairs.

The most difficult part of this approach is determining the items to be reported on the initial sheet. The advantage of this approach is that only one field visit to each house is needed.

Initially it's a pain, but as you proceed you will be able to refine it to match your requirements, and you will be able to calculate the costs in the comfort of your office. Additionally, you will have a permanent record of what you have determined to be necessary, as well as the costs involved.

__________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgment.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#60
In reply to #57

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 4:13 AM

Thats what I've already done before I went to measure, if by spreadsheet you mean an excel spreadsheet that I made minor changes to.

In your mind, what does this spreadsheet look like? How is it laid out?

Register to Reply
2
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 1672
Good Answers: 194
#59
In reply to #44

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 2:36 AM

It's good that you can measure and describe each of the buildings' primary function.

I find that a picture paints a thousand words. Taking (digital) pictures and embedding them into the building scope of works will save you lots of time when you have the pics catalogued properly.

Whether its a road surface,kerb and guttering, windows, door, walls or whatever, the pictures allow the extent of work in eachinstance to be understood.

I would suggest that you break the work by trades/contractors ability.

I would suggest that you determine the workin the sequence that each trade needs access to each building.

That way, as work is completed,each building can be "colour coded" to the next trade to move in. This would give you a visual representation for progress on the whole site. It will also give you an indication of which trade is holding up the flow.

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#61
In reply to #59

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 4:21 AM

We're not allowed to use colour or pictures in documents, aside from the client's logo which is on a few pages.

We have scope meeting with all interested contractors and they are forced to attend, we sign a part of the document at that meeting. Usually we do a detailed presentation of the scope with pictures, and explain the parts of the contract. Then we take them through the entire site. We email a pdf of the presentation to them on request.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#65
In reply to #61

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 9:40 AM

"...with all interested contractors and they are forced to attend..."

Forced is a mighty strong word.

Forced at what alternative. I will let you fill in the blank. Moderator apparently picked up what I was saying, and deleted it, or NSA did.

Interpol, FBI, CIA, NSA, DIA, and others are probably keenly interested in you by now and your no photos policy.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#66
In reply to #65

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 11:32 AM

They have to attend, otherwise cannot submit a bid.

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4361
Good Answers: 175
#49

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 3:36 PM

Oh come on now guys. A whole bunch of you have been very rude and obnoxious to Mr. Nnn, if not downright snarky.

Some peeps have been very unprofessional, to say the least. Ohhh my, what am I saying here. I meant some have never been a true licensed professional to begin with and others have too much free time on their hands bashing individuals coming in here for advice.

It's no wonder I rarely pop-in anymore for a visit and a cheeky chat.

Additionally, no wonder membership numbers in for CR4 is basically in the toilet, given the way new persons are treated by the long-standing membership.

Did any of you bashers ever think that Nnn is swamped with work and that he is in a time crunch, thus has very little time to write a lengthy treatise for your reading enjoyment?

Time is money. I've been in his shoes many times, wanting somehow to "short cut" the expended work effort, because I too wanted a family life. I bet many of you have done exactly the same thing.

Just because you can hide behind your keyboard or cellphone pad doesn't necessarily give you the G-D right to be obnoxious to others, no matter how long you have been a CR4 member.

I'm sure I will draw the wrath of some of you, but somehow I just don't give a hairy rat's behind. I've said enough already.

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 39041
Good Answers: 1532
#50
In reply to #49

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 3:51 PM

Well then, instead of flogging the forum and your keyboard, give the man some help!��

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - New Member Hobbies - Target Shooting - New Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - New Member United States - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Red Hook, New York (Mid-Hudson River Valley)
Posts: 4361
Good Answers: 175
#52
In reply to #50

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 3:58 PM

He has already said that he has figured it out and didn't need our help.

Besides, I could give it to him, but I'd have to spend a few days looking through several hundred plastic storage totes stored down in the basement looking for what he desires. Frankly, I don't have the time to do that right now.

Some in the forum need more than a mere flogging. Just saying...

__________________
"Veni, Vidi, Vici"; hendiatris attributed to Gaius Julius Caesar, 47 B.C.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#54
In reply to #50

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 5:17 PM

The forum is not the only thing being flogged on this topic!

Nnn: use a spreadsheet you can import to your and your crew's cell phones. Genius!

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#56
In reply to #54

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 5:35 PM

There is no I in crew. What crew? This is me and my free student. I cant afford this kind of technology. At least I have a laser measure.

Once the excel speadsheet is on my phone it might suffer battery death. Besides, the screen is totally too small.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#64
In reply to #56

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 9:33 AM

OK then, go low tech. A legal sized pad (of writing paper) and a No.2 pencil should be affordable.

Make a file folder for all the notes taken on each building. Since you apparently don't want to use cell phone, do you at least have a cheap digital camera? Print the pictures you take, and file them.

Later, you and your student assistant may want to organize each folder to prioritize what gets "fixed" at all, what gets "fixed" first, and what is to be left for later.

If the building will have continual occupancy, items like black mold, pests, etc. come before creature comforts for example.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#67
In reply to #64

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 11:34 AM

That approach is full of holes. Have you ever been on a site?

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#69
In reply to #67

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 2:16 PM

Get some spray paint, and paint giant numbers on each building, they apparently could not look worse than they do now.

Ever heard the expression, ugly as a mud fence?

Let me see:...mud building No. 132...yep - needs more mud....moving on now.

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#75
In reply to #69

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/05/2016 4:10 PM

Just FYI. There are already building numbers spray painted on. I'm upgrading them to actual number signs.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 8525
Good Answers: 111
#70
In reply to #67

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 2:16 PM

Obviously, not one of yours, safety first is my motto...

__________________
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just build a better one.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#77
In reply to #70

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/05/2016 5:50 PM

Nah its safe. The other day someone held the gate guard at knifepoint and stole his gun.

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster #1
#71
In reply to #67

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/05/2016 8:50 AM

A negative person is someone who finds a problem for every solution.

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#72
In reply to #71

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/05/2016 1:42 PM

He thinks I dont take a pencil and paper, I dont make lists and I dont make use of spreadsheets.... and then suggests that I take a camera along.

*I put my face in the palm of my hand.

*I think he could pass kindergarten with his superb free thinking skills.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 39041
Good Answers: 1532
#73
In reply to #72

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/05/2016 2:19 PM

By now, I'd have thought that you would have gotten tired of all this verbal jousting and moved on to more fertile forums such as these, already offered once:

Civil Engineering Forum

Civil Engineering Forums" by thecivilengineer.org • Index page

What are some good online civil engineering communities or forums ...

< I now, forever and completely, unsubscribe from this awful, petty mess>

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#74
In reply to #73

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/05/2016 3:51 PM

You sure? No time to hang around and repeat what you've already said?

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#68
In reply to #64

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 11:56 AM

Actually, I have a helicopter drone. Just not sure flying it through a building is a good idea.

Someone might shoot it down.

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#51
In reply to #49

Re: Building Refurbishment

11/30/2016 3:57 PM

Some have been helpful.

Register to Reply
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 1672
Good Answers: 194
#62

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 5:12 AM

Given what you've described you have months, if not years of frustration and dissappointment ahead of you.

The contractors will by necessity over-quote based on the absence of clear scope and then will only provide the absolute minimum possible to get by.

You (or the principal) will discover the shortcomings when almost 40% of the site has been processed and then decide to increase inspection regiem and atempt to enforce rectification of the items already done. The contractors will then begin to blame you for the shortcomings.

Are the contractors blindfolded on the way to, and through the site so they have to guess what their role is? I can understand confidentiality, but once contractors and suppliers have been selected (and suitably signed into agreement) then full and absolute disclosure leads to best outcomes.

My only suggestion from this point is to look up "brownfields" site restoration for generic hints and processes.

__________________
Just an Engineer from the land down under.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#63
In reply to #62

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/01/2016 7:39 AM

Yes you are correct. The spec is written in the document in detail to allow accurate pricing, with accurate quantities. The scope meeting just puts the work into perspective with a presentation and photographs of typical repair work. When the contractor doesnt completely understand what he needs to do, he inflates the price to cover hidden costs.

The spec is based on standard spec for buildings (but that is only available for new installations) and manufacturer's spec.

It reads something like: remove the old thing and throw it away, install this, made from material, by doing this and this, within these tolerances, refer to this and this and this and this standard code. The tendered rate will include procuring, transporting, etc etc etc all cost components. Measurement unit No. or m or ton or whatever is most logical.

And if its a manufactured item just: remove the old thing and throw it away, install this (or similar approved) that has these attributes, according to manufacturer's specification. The tendered rate will include....

Standard practice. Nothing weird.

My company has four of these projects, two are in construction, one finishes in Dec, the other some time next year.

My document is already much better and much more complete. I'm nearly finished with the first. I should prob mention that its not a fixed price contract. Quantities vary (up to 10%) and final quantities are measured during construction.

The 4 projects were initiated in 2002. The guys who worked on the ones currently under construction are long gone.

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 35
#76

Re: Building Refurbishment

12/05/2016 4:20 PM

Thank all for their helpful comments. I am done here.

See you in the tea room.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 77 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (3); CaptMoosie (2); Casper71 (2); Crabtree (1); Del the cat (2); IdeaSmith (3); jack of all trades (2); James Stewart (11); Jpfalt (1); Just an Engineer (4); lyn (7); Nnn (28); PWSlack (6); SolarEagle (2); Tom_Consulting (2); tonyhemet (1)

Previous in Forum: Rare Book: "Air-Supported Structures" by Bailly et al.   Next in Forum: Living in LEGO-Brick Housing Is Closer Than Some Think

Advertisement