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Internship Argument

12/05/2016 9:59 AM

A degree holder engineering student went to internship. His boss always say that he is mechanical engineer who cannot ask any question to the boss, he just can answer the questions. That student is just internship student and he never get any experience on how to solve the real problems. Did the student need to fight back to his boss and tell him that he is just a trainee and not yet become engineer? Is it correct way for that students to do such things? Did the boss got wrong about keep say that student is not a trainee but is a worker or real engineer?

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#1

Re: Internship argument

12/05/2016 10:16 AM

In an archaic organisation that does not exceed customers' expectations, the illustration may well be realistic.

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#2

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 10:30 AM

It depends on what country you are in as to what is expected by both parties....an internship generally speaking is a student position in the West, can be a paid or unpaid position taken by a student to gain experience to explore the working environment of this field for possible career choice...

..."Internships for professional careers are similar in some ways but not as rigorous to apprenticeships for professions, trade and vocational jobs,[3] but the lack of standardisation and oversight leaves the term open to broad interpretation.[4][5] Interns may be college or university students, high school students, or post-graduate adults. These positions may be paid or unpaid and are usually temporary.

Generally, an internship consists of an exchange of services for experience between the student and an organization. Students can also use an internship to determine if they have an interest in a particular career, to create a network of contacts, or to gain school credit. Some interns find permanent, paid employment with the organizations for which they worked upon completion of the internship. This can be a significant benefit to the employer as experienced interns often need little or no training when they begin regular employment. Unlike a trainee program, employment at the completion of an internship is not guaranteed."...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 10:40 AM

That student is in Malaysia and he is a degree holder student. May I know the boss got fault to say the student an real engineer? The fact is that student is an intern not an engineer. So should the student tell the boss that don't ever say that the student himself is an engineer not an intern?

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 10:55 AM

A new employee should never argue with the boss....You can do the job, or not do the job, that choice is always yours...You are not likely to always agree with what your boss says, but the responsibility for being right is why they get the big bucks....and you follow orders....If this person was hired as an engineer and works as an engineer then probably should be called an engineer, whether qualified or not is another question....

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 10:59 AM

Ok. Thank you very much solareagle

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#10
In reply to #3

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 12:23 PM

He should not do that, when the boss is an experienced terrorist. When he say don't touch, cut and move that. The intern should do so, unless otherwise, he wants to blow his limb off the shop.

It's a parallel to some corporation out there. Bosses are always right even so, many times they are wrong.

There's nothing wrong being a down to earth humble.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 4:17 PM

You have Homer Simpson's brain, but not his intelligence.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 7:14 PM

yeah, somebody might inherited it in here. It must be somewhere, I don't know.

Oh, I experienced before following my boss's decision because he's a steel brain guy and the outcome sucked and then he realized. I could not laugh hard enough at his back, must be a sarcasm. Sometimes, guys like that really needs some destructive testing, I guess. I don't know, how 'bout you?

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#4

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 10:52 AM

Simple, if you can't ask questions there is no point being there...
Leave immediately... (without asking as you are not allowed to ask questions).
Del

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#5

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 10:52 AM

First off to get this out of the way. There may be a language barrier here and your description may not be the true intent.

Having manage an engineering department, there are a number of issues.

Having brought individuals in that had very little experience and fresh out of college. These students want to apply every thing they've learned in a very short time. Not very productive, but its a learning experience for the 'green engineer' to apply what is needed.

Secondly, the boss, what is he?, is he the engineering manager?, lead engineer in a group?, owner of the company>, doesn't matter, it may be a good idea for this 'green engineer' to discuss his ideas with his colleagues first to gather his thoughts and to get a fresh prospective. He may be missing something.

Noone and I mean Noone in his right mind, does not turn a 'green engineer' out to solve real problems on his own, until his competency is proven reliable. (see first sentence)

I've put engineers, if I see they are making minor mistakes, (mistakes that can be easily absorbed in the project without notice) I'll let it go, just to see how they handle it.

This gives them true practical confidence, not the false confidence by hiding behind a degree.

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 10:56 AM

Thank you phonix911

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#14
In reply to #5

Re: Internship Argument

12/06/2016 10:14 AM

Noone and I mean Noone in his right mind, does not turn a 'green engineer' out to solve real problems on his own, until his competency is proven reliable. (see first sentence)

Really? What world do you live in? I've had 3 jobs (in the USA) since graduation from college in 1972, and only one chose to try to train me. That was rather rudimentary, as when I got to the real world portion of the job, there were far more things not taught than taught. I learned all three of my jobs on either my company's time, or the company's customer's time. All three just turned me loose to make a go of it or fail and cost them money.

Only good thing about this time in history - the answers are often at your finger tip through the "magic" of the internet. I didn't have that luxury.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Internship Argument

12/06/2016 10:54 AM

All three just turned me loose to make a go of it or fail and cost them money.

The only thing you proved is my point and I may have given you a GA

Only good thing about this time in history - the answers are often at your finger tip through the "magic" of the internet. I didn't have that luxury.

This comment took away any possible GA. The rest of your post is fluff.

Your example is why I was a manager and you were not.

I would never let a green horn engineer tackle a problem where he did not show or prove his competency. I don't care what degrees he held.

And since you seemed lost on the point. Let me explain the costs, you see the costs are a lot higher that just monetary.

- The Project could get killed.

- The engineer confidence so shakened that it would take maybe years to recover if at all.

- The reliability and confidence of the company to its customer would be put in jeopardy. As well as reflect everyone who is involved in the project.

This is just to name of few of the detrimental issues that could follow by poor management.

You see, the type of people I hire I look at potential that can be realized.

And the people I hire and that work under me, I train and give them every opportunity to take over my job.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Internship Argument

12/06/2016 11:12 AM

I've hired more engineers with experience than with none.

Some were great, some OK, and a few, were zeros. Resumes' do not always give the story.

Now, having said that, one particular engineer comes to mind. He was an accomplished musician that had gone back to school and gotten his ME degree.

I took a chance on him, and he proved to be a great analytical engineer. His approach was not always the fastest, but when he finished the assignment, I never questioned his judgement.

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#21
In reply to #16

Re: Internship Argument

12/06/2016 12:53 PM

His approach was not always the fastest, but when he finished the assignment, I never questioned his judgement.

People like that, can be a relief.

Resumes' do not always give the story.

Some of my most valued people were actually designers with associate degrees. But they put the time in and went above and beyond. That's one thing good with being young. They have stamina to endure.

I'll give them point 'A' (where we are) and point 'B' (where we need to get to). I'm no longer surprised what they come up with, or how it evolved to get there.

I'm willing to take a chance anyone, if I see something I like. at times some didn't work out.

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Internship Argument

12/06/2016 11:26 AM

Well good for you. I would like to have had a manager like you, at least once in my life. I've encountered three jobs in a row where the company managers assumed the term "engineer" meant you know what you are doing. Training would have been nice, but turned out to be not really necessary.

Oh no - lives were at stake as well. The middle job was oil / gas well analysis and completion, and we were NEVER trained in how to arm and set up explosives - we learned on site, but hopefully your "riggers" (hourly assistants who lugged the heavy stuff around) had done it before and could show you what to do. Not always true - I learned how to arm an 8" casing cutter explosive on my own. I had a green rigger with me.

Basically every cased hole tool was learned this way, as that was not taught in the 6 weeks training period - just the "open hole" newly drilled well analysis tools. These just cost the customer some time, for me to learn on site. But, by the time I was done with that career, I was considered a cased hole specialist and was given all jobs that came in. Learning with the real thing and under pressure is very effective for the engineer.

On my first job, I assumed a standard three phase feed to a building, not knowing there were two phase (rural 240V) systems in the area of my building project. ALL panels had to be changed on site as well as about 1/3 of the wiring. Other engineers where I worked were aware of this, but never checked on me or told me about that potential problem. My company managed to make it look like the electricians were at fault and stuck their company with the costs. I hung on for three more years after that debacle.

On this job I've had for 28 years now, I still wake up some nights dreading that first explosion proof panel I designed will fail. Dang - that was an ugly mess we built. I know this now, but had only books and the NEC, which is a very "grey" code to go by. But, since that was 24 years ago, I think I'm probably safe now.

My point of the "fluff" was there are plenty of companies out there that do expect an "engineer" to be fully versed in every possible discipline, just because of the degree. If in one of these jobs, as apparently someone is, learn as fast as you can or leave if you can afford to.

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#20
In reply to #17

Re: Internship Argument

12/06/2016 12:45 PM

What you went through a lot of us did. Difference was, I realized if I had the chance. I wasn't going to leave anyone hanging.

Do that, engineers were willing to take difference approaches to try something new. Because they were confident if it didn't work out, there was a safety net.

This created an positive energy because they realized, if someone tried something that didn't work out today, it may be themselves tomorrow. It had a positive affect. But it took its toll on me.

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#19
In reply to #15

Re: Internship Argument

12/06/2016 12:31 PM

I call that "competence" on yours Phoenix911!

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#22
In reply to #19

Re: Internship Argument

12/06/2016 1:07 PM

I never got real personable with them, but I did wanted to see them succeed.

If they moved on elsewhere, I hated to see them go, but I was happy for them.

Years later, I moved on and I'll see some of them or get a card from them, at times even get invited to their wedding.

They explained that they never realized what I really did for them because they never had anything to judge it against, until they themselves moved on.

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#9

Re: Internship Argument

12/05/2016 12:21 PM

A solid, clear, unambiguous, mutual understanding of the duties and responsibilities of both parties should have been negotiated and agreed upon, prior to any internship starting.

I'd find another internship or have a talk with the person to whom you report.

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#13

Re: Internship Argument

12/06/2016 12:06 AM

Firstly :

Expected Behavior depends on Country / law / ethics / culture / organization/ Hierarchy /seniority etc.

Actual Behavior depends on temperaments / inter personal bonds / situational environment / wisdom & Maturity / self control etc.

Unilaterally we cannot comment about right or wrong on events.

Secondly :

To me an Engineer is a person who understand technical reasons and use them for some advantage. This is an ability – observe- understand-reasons-plan and apply solution.

Exposure alone could develop these ability if one has them to make one a good engineer (although most probably he will not be recognized him as an engineer)

Engineering institutes equip one with fundamental technical principles with theory which make one better prepared for the exposure. A mere pass out certificate won’t make one an engineer.

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#18

Re: Internship Argument

12/06/2016 11:36 AM

BINGO!!!

"And the people I hire and that work under me, I train and give them every opportunity to take over my job -- phoenix911"...... Those are the words of a true manager, as it relates to any hire/intern. In a word, Character..... It is a demonstrable culmination of knowledge, intelligence and wisdom, all of which, in such combination, is at times lacking.

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#23

Re: Internship Argument

12/08/2016 10:09 AM

If you don't like your situation, find a new one. Management styles vary and no one style is "correct". Different people work better under different management styles. If you are unhappy, find a new internship.

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#24

Re: Internship Argument

12/08/2016 4:51 PM

I was trained by a mentor who let me do what I wanted to do. If I asked a question his response was mostly, I dont know, go and read that book. He looked at my work in extreme detail and it ended up as a red painting. If he did feel like explaining something it took 4hours or more, because he didnt neglect any detail or give summarised answers. In the third year I designed a major project (for the following 5 years) and our client wanted to stamp my name on it when I was done.

Time should be spent to train people. Ask questions only after you read the book. You prob wont need to ask if you read first. People who take shortcuts to find fast answers turn into irresponsible engineers(like asking your boss if purple is red and he says yes, and later you find the terrible mistake in your work when purple turns out to be purple). First of all, how can you trust that this answer is correct without exploring the possibilities yourself? Secondly, how will you learn to weigh the pro's and con's of different solutions against each other to make engineering decisions if you always allow others to do that for you? That is just being lazy.

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Anonymous Poster (1); Bayes (1); Del the cat (1); gutmonarch (2); Jason Tay (3); lyn (2); mog (1); Nnn (1); phoenix911 (5); Phys (2); PWSlack (1); Sanjayvt (1); SolarEagle (2); vsar (1)

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