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Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 8:01 AM

I have absolute proof of provenance of an invention. This includes an offer by the government to fund prototypes. The proof dates back to the 1980’s.

I feel that if there was a Nobel prize in the field of the invention, it would be a strong contender.

If it were to become public now - 35 years after its invention - with no prior art then, (nor even any ‘post art’, since - to the best of my knowledge), can anybody tell me why I should be denied a patent on it?

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#1

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 8:14 AM

First off, I'm not a patent attorney, but as I understand it...

Back in the day of Alexander Graham Bell and Elisha Grey, the first to patent wins the rights.

Later on the patent laws changed, and if you had the proof that you had provenance of an invention, even if some else patented it, you still could be awarded the rights,... after it was proved in courts. But, only if you didn't make it public for 1 year. I would imagine securing it with a patent pending. Not doing so, and just having the idea and not applying it

The Obama administration changed that, and it reverted back to favor the procedures of old.

You have a few problems now.

  • Patent laws vary country to country.
  • You state "I have absolute proof of provenance of an invention", ok, who owns this provenance?
  • Second, the proof dates back to the 80's,... there is a problem with that, was it ever applied? If it was applied without protection, then it may fall under public domain. And if it was protect, then patent more then likely expired.
  • Your statement of "I feel that if there was a Nobel prize in the field of the invention, it would be a strong contender." and then publishing it on a forum like, you're just fishing.

My opinion/impression is that you're just looking for a quick and easy buck that really has nothing to do with the value of the invention you speak of.

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#46
In reply to #1

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 8:47 AM

"Second, the proof dates back to the 80's,... there is a problem with that, was it ever applied? If it was applied without protection, then it may fall under public domain. And if it was protect, then patent more then likely expired."

Point of Information: If it was applied without protection, it would fall under Prior Art, not Public Domain. If it is Prior Art, then it the invention is not able to get patent protection, and either is a Trade Secret (if kept hidden from the world) or becomes Public Domain (if the information becomes published).

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#48
In reply to #46

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 10:19 AM

If memory serve me, I like to add the prior art also needs to be patented. If it's not, then it's public domain or as you say, trade secrets... and any similar patented prior art has to be reference, by a 'reasonable patent' search and listed.

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#54
In reply to #48

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 4:10 PM

I was led to believe that 'Prior Art' meant that it was 'demonstrated or revealed' prior to patenting, either by a previous patent, or a public demonstration, or publishing in a trade journal, the last two Prior Arts also put the invention into the Public Domain.

Prior Art just means 'somebody did it already' which causes the patent to fail on Novelty: if it's already been done than it cannot be 'novel' (or 'new.')

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#57
In reply to #54

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 5:36 PM

Actually I believe you correct, art being existing whether patented or not. But patented art needs to be referenced, while unpatented art is not.

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: Invention / Patents

01/06/2017 8:26 AM

Of course, you can't just say 'prior art' without corroborating info. If it's a prior patent, then referencing the patent number gives a clear and unambiguous indication of exactly what the prior art is. For other sources, more detail may be needed, up to a full narrative to describe the prior art:

"The May 27, 1934 edition of the Chicago Tribune reports on page 3 that the Pioneer Zephyr had completed a record-breaking 13 hour, 5 minute run from Denver, Colorado to Chicago, Illinois on the evening of May 26, thus proving the effectiveness of streamlining for high-speed rail transit." That narrative, along with a printout of the page from the Tribune's archives, would serve to demonstrate prior art in the field of 'locomotive train streamlining.' A later patent in that field would not stand unless it was a noticeable improvement on the prior work, such as permitting a train to make a trip of that length in a fraction of the time, or showing in wind tunnel testing that the new design can achieve much higher speeds than the top speed reported for the Zephyr.

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#52
In reply to #1

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 12:59 PM

No matter what you do, if it is worthwhile, China will steal it.

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#2

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 8:16 AM

Once an "invention" is of public domain, there are no rights to be protected by a patent, which (according to what you say) might have been your case.

So, relax and enjoy life!

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#7
In reply to #2

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 9:41 AM

It has never been in the public domain. Odds on it never will be.

I am not asking what are the the laws in this or that country. I want to know WHY I should be deprived of my rights if e.g. one of the very few to see it, were to spill the beans.

Fortunately, most will be dead already.

As I said, I have absolute proof -

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 9:47 AM

This forum cannot provide a better answer than a telephone call to the Thailand Patent Office can. The telephone number can be found by following the link in #3⇓.

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#9
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Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 9:52 AM

I don't believe that's the answer he's looking for.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 9:57 AM

The forum has had no indication so far that the original poster is actually looking anywhere else other than this forum. However, the chances of a reader here having the required answer and responding appropriately and promptly here are so remote that an appropriate level of discounting has to be applied.

According to this, there is no other CR4 reader in Thailand, for instance; were there to be one, the original poster could contact that individual directly and without posting the current question.

Nothing beats the telephone for speed. During the discussion, one picks up other snippets of information, leading somewhere else, that can eventually lead on to the answer, which is why it is recommended. Alexander Graham Bell, its acknowledged inventor, is even mentioned in #1⇑.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 10:05 AM

His question is unrealistic in its demand.

The answer still lies with someone intimately familiar with patent law and I don't believe anyone here is really qualified to provide an informed answer.

My response to OP is still contact a patent attorney.

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 10:07 AM

And it's the correct one, even with that said, that's still not the answer he is also looking for.

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#16
In reply to #11

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 10:47 AM

No demand, Lyn.

As I understand it, the patent system represents an agreement between society and inventors to encourage inventors to solve societys' problems, by giving inventors a limited monopoly on their solutions.

How does it encourage me, or anybody, to solve societies' problems by mandating that I be deprived of my rights if e.g. a third party, sworn to secrecy, accidentally discloses the invention? Even with proof of invention?

Patent attornies can tell you what the law is. I want to know WHY it is. I imagine this forum has a few inventors - and a few members of society - the two parties to the agreement.

Does anyone ('inventor' or 'member of society') have a good reason for it?

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 10:53 AM

Well, by your own addition, your not creating to solve problems, your marketing a solution someone else created to solve problems and want to profit off it.

And on a patents what I know of;

  • The Inventor is listed
  • and the Owner is listed

How are you going to patent it?

  • you are not the inventor
  • you are not the owner
  • and there is no line for marketeer

Because that's what you are.

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 11:01 AM

I am the inventor.

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#24
In reply to #21

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 11:24 AM

Then if your so sure of the success of your invention but lack funds.

Begin creating a business plan, describe what your going to do, its benefits, its risk, customer base, industry, it would also benefit you to have some statistics on the industry its applied to that would include potential growth. (also have an exit plan)

Don't forget to include the government backing in more details. Take it to a bank for a loan and pursue securing it. They are not going to finance a loan for securing a patent, they will finance you on your cash flow, even if its government subsidy for development.

And remember, The more tangibility you have in your business plan, the less risk it is to the bank and the more likelihood you'll secure a loan. And if you can secure a loan, then and only then is it possible that it will be a success. And by success, it means that you can repay the loan.

good luck

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#25
In reply to #21

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 11:25 AM

And why are you just getting around to this now if out have known about it for multiple decades now if its such a world revolutionizing thing?

It's not over unity power generation related is it?

And how sure are you that absolutely no one has ever created a similar thing and it isn't already all over the world but under a different name or such than you are aware of?

Reason I ask i I have met several people in my life now that had as they put it 'world revolutionizing patentable ideas' they wanted my help with fine tuning for actual use only to find out what they had was either never going work because they didn't know crap about what it was they were working with or they were already mass produced items/concepts just under different names or applications than they were aware of.

Personally if you think a patent will make you rich the odds are it won't.

As for myself I have designed and developed a few patentable things in my life but instead of wasting my time and money trying to secure rights to them I published my work to online forums and made it permanent public domain info so that anyone else whoever comes up with such a concept will have a dang hard time ever patenting and or making money off of the design either.

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 11:35 AM

When I was about 7 years old, I used to crush up hard candies like lemon drops, peppermint or cinnamon and mix it with gum or ice cream.

My older brother thought I was nuts and would punch me for such a foolish idea... and 10 years later... it was advertise on television. I mentioned it to him, he still wanted to punch me then, but he knew it wouldn't no longer be a party.

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#49
In reply to #21

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 12:27 PM

If you are one, have you encrypted all your files on your pc. The government or shall I say some government might take interest on that thing you are possessing right now.

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#22
In reply to #16

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 11:02 AM

You are being unreasonable.

The "why" is because that's the patent law. It doesn't have to be fair, or meet with your approval.

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#50
In reply to #22

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 12:29 PM

Who says that's also the law in other lands?Well, atleast in China, it's quite different.

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#23
In reply to #16

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 11:07 AM

"Patent attornies can tell you what the law is. I want to know WHY it is."

Has it occurred to you that they also might know the WHY? Did you ask them, and did they reply "Oh we've no bloody idea, mate. Maybe you should the guys on CR4"?

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#30
In reply to #16

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 1:15 PM

do you know what you are looking for? is it FAME / recognition or just CASH? If your idea is good, you can get fame (almost) for free, if you are looking for money.... you need to get a lawyer

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#12
In reply to #7

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 10:06 AM

So most of the government folks who saw this thing and were willing to fund prototypes are dead already?

How convenient for you.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 10:08 AM

I think he used to sell pillows.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 10:22 AM

So long as he secures a patent before his peers in the science community begin firing-off nominations to Carl XVI Gustaf. Wouldn't want His Majesty spilling the beans you know. Makes getting patents so much harder. Just ask the LIGO guys.

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#17
In reply to #12

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 10:50 AM

Still have the correspondence. And the invention.

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 10:56 AM

Does not matter if you have the physical invention.

Are you the owner of the invention, and by invention I mean the idea.

Anyways, its wise for you to take the advice of others and see a patent attorney in your area.

Or, since the government is going to subsidize you, just do it that way.

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#20
In reply to #17

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 10:57 AM

But no patent? Why not? You've been sitting on this for nearly 40 years now? Why are you asking us about your patent rights and not your country's patent office? What do you expect us to tell you that your patent office cannot?

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#39
In reply to #17

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 5:09 AM

I too have, and have had patentable ideas. Those that did get patented belonged to my employer at the time. If you were an employee in Oz when you had the idea and made the prototype, indeed when you sought Gov't assistance, that employer will own the patent. The papers relating to the Gov't assistance will prove who the owner is, and it may not be you. My own problem is that my employer was the Gov't. So no action was taken. IF a patent had been taken it will by now be well and truly dead. So the real question is 'if a patent wasn't sought for a novel idea that is now over 16yrs old, can one be sought now? I don't know.

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#44
In reply to #17

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 7:43 AM

And the problem.

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#45
In reply to #44

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 7:46 AM

Ha, you're still here for the entertainment aren't you.

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#26
In reply to #7

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 11:35 AM

Seems to me you are not deprived of your rights: if you believe in your invention hire a lawyer and go for it!

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#55
In reply to #7

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 4:22 PM

Proof that they are dead already, hmm...sounds pretty serious alright, where did you hide the bodies, and what is this idea (invention) you have? Is it something to aid work in a semiconductor plant?

Does it vaporize poop? Does your invention stink? Does it turn water a nasty stinky brown color? Does your invention raid coastal villages and kidnap the maidens? You have prior art conflict on that, since the Vikings own that, you and everything else they care to plunder.

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#3

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 8:17 AM

Yes. The local patent office would be able to say.

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#4

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 8:30 AM

I can only go by the UK’s Designs, Patents and Copyright Act which is based on international law.

Copyright (my personal bugbear) extends to 25 years after the authors death.

I’ve nailed two so far and I’m after a third.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 8:35 AM

Here in the States, I normally would Copyright my work when I can, it's a lot cheaper and easier to do and defend, but is limited being written or printed material.

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#6

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 9:12 AM

This is the wrong place to ask your question. Only someone familiar with the patent laws of Thailand can answer your question.

Hire a local patent attorney! Otherwise you are wasting your time.

Patent Law in Thailand - Thailand Law Online

Basics of Thai Patent Act | Thailand Law

Thailand: Patent Act B.E. 2522 (1979) - WIPO

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#28

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 11:56 AM

The way I read your question is that you're asking for the reasoning behind the patent law that applies in your situation. Without resorting to jokes about what any legislature thinks about when enacting laws, I'd suggest that you do some research on the specific legislation that concerns you. You probably would need to go to a university library or whatever the equivalent of the Library of Congress is in Thailand, if that's the law in question.

I found this which might answer some questions for you.

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#33
In reply to #28

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 3:04 PM

"what any legislature thinks about when enacting laws"

Truth be told, not many laws are actually written by legislators, either at the state or the national level.

They are written by lobbyists and the staff.

When Lobbyists Literally Write The Bill : It's All Politics : NPR

"It's been a long-accepted truth in Washington that lobbyists write the actual laws"

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 4:36 PM

Usg, i didn't realize that it had gotten that bad ... but I shouldn't be surprised, should I?

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 8:13 PM

It's the golden rule you know.

Those who have the gold make the rules.

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#29

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 12:33 PM

..."can anybody tell me why I should be denied a patent on it?"...

If you've never done a patent search, somebody could already have a patent....If somebody already has a patent, and you want to claim prior art, you're probably wasting your time...If nobody has a patent and you want to acquire a patent, you need to pay for it...the problem here is if you file for the patent somebody can copy it and begin producing and selling, and then you have to sue for patent infringement, which can cost a fortune, so you go bankrupt....If you have a patentable and marketable invention and haven't acted on it for 30+ years, you deserve what you get....nothing

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#31

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 1:55 PM

A friend of mine invented the perpetual motion machine.

For untold reasons he kept the secret for many years. One day he got a lifethreatening disease and decided to disclose his secret to me, requesting me to rush to the hospital he was admitted at. When I entered to his room, he smiled at me, muttered a few words ... and passed away....

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 2:00 PM

THAT is an amazing story. Now if you'd include in your story;

  1. that your dog died just last week,
  2. your wife left you for your best friend,
  3. and your truck is in the garage

And then put it to music. There's a good chance of it becoming a Number 1 country hit.

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#40
In reply to #32

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 5:41 AM

I´m writing the lyrics right now!

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#61
In reply to #32

Re: Invention / Patents

01/07/2017 1:13 PM

You left out the part about his mother getting run over by a train.

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#36
In reply to #31

Re: Invention / Patents

01/04/2017 9:07 PM

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#60
In reply to #31

Re: Invention / Patents

01/06/2017 11:56 AM

Yes, but were they the important words to unlock the secret of the invention?

Did mama still get run over by a train? Did you play the Beatles record backward and discover a Satanic lyric? No matter how perpetual the motion, God can still only rock mankind in the cradle so long, and after that it is off to college (the stars).

No perpetual motion machine can exist without an ever increasing quantity of entropy in the system, or rather the extended system outside the box.

I would just like to see one self-sustaining machine, that has a useful purpose in motion. Filling up a fuel tank does not count, unless the machine fills it up without outside agency.

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#37

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 12:37 AM

Why is the law a certain way ? Because it was decided upon to be that way , that's why . Do you want to change a law ? There are procedures for that . Good luck .

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#38

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 3:36 AM

If you have discussed this (your invention) with others (and you admit you have done so)
then it is in the public domain. Period. (according to UK law and probably Thailand.)
As far as I am aware any invention cannot be registered if it is in the public domain.

You could claim to be the inventor, but not obtain any patentable rights to it.

It seems you wish to change this state of affairs to that you can or should be able
to, register your invention despite it being in the public domain.
This would discriminate against everyone who had lost (or would lose) their rights both
before and after you. i.e. this being a (your) precedent. (IMO) but I am not a patent agent.
This (I think) could be the "Why" for which you are looking?

To put it simply: if others know about it, it is not a new invention any more.
You can still get fame - by making a fortune with it, and helping humanity.

What are you waiting for? A fresh start? Can you re-invent a better model?
Do you really need this patent? Just sell the "goods" before anyone else does.

jt.

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death bed, sold me this watch. :-)

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#41

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 6:00 AM

There is no simple answer to your question as to why you should (or could or would) be denied a patent. It depends on the facts and the patent laws of the particular country. In theory, if this 35 year old invention has never been disclosed to the public (and statutes for definition of "public disclosure" and "absolute novelty" vary by country), then you or the inventor has not created any prior art yourselves that can be used against you. From that point, there also has to be no prior art by others that would destroy novelty or inventive step, upon which basis a patent could be denied. Since 35 years have passed, that might be a stretch. I also note that whatever happened to result in "an offer by the government to fund prototypes" might qualify as a public disclosure in some, most, or all countries.

If you were to proceed to pursue a patent, you do not have to begin the process in Thailand, or even file any patent application there. You can begin by filing a PCT application through the International Bureau of WIPO, and then continue to pursue patents in individual member states (countries) of the PCT. Subsequently, national stage applications can be filed to pursue individual patents in the member countries. You might succeed in some countries and not others depending upon their laws. The "why" could vary. it could be for reasons of prior art, the quality of the disclosure, and whether the subject matter of the invention is statutory, i.e., acceptable subject matter that qualifies for a patent. If you are trying to patent a perpetual motion machine, you won't get far.

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#42

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 7:28 AM

Provenance by definition is the History of Ownership, so if you own the idea, or object or material there is nothing to stop you placing a patent on it, no mater how much time has passed, as long as it does not exist elsewhere, in a slightly different form and you have conclusive dates of the item being patented. You might just find it exists elsewhere, so a patent search might be your first port of call.

Nothing is unique and many people think of the same idea at similar times, some simply pursue it and make it work.

According to UK laws/guidelines:

What you can’t patent

You can’t patent certain types of invention, including:

  • literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works
  • a way of doing business, playing a game or thinking
  • a method of medical treatment or diagnosis
  • a discovery, scientific theory or mathematical method
  • the way information is presented
  • some computer programs
  • ‘essentially biological’ processes, e.g. crossing-breeding plants, and plant or animal varieties

What you can patent

You can use a patent to protect your invention. It gives you the right to take legal action against anyone who makes, uses, sells or imports it without your permission.

To be granted a patent, your invention must be all of the following:

  • something that can be made or used
  • new
  • inventive - not just a simple modification to something that already exists

https://www.gov.uk/patent-your-invention

https://www.gov.uk/topic/intellectual-property/patents

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#43
In reply to #42

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 7:42 AM

Its is questionable of what catagory the Nobel winning invention that's also patentable.

But from Nobels history, the only catagory I can think of would be the Nobel Peace prize.

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#53
In reply to #43

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 3:45 PM

? "But from Nobel's history, the only category I can think of would be the Nobel Peace prize." [??]

The OP states:

"I feel that if there was a Nobel prize in the field of the invention, it would be a strong contender."

In post 17 he states: "Still have the correspondence. And the invention"...

...and, in post 21, he divulges that he is the inventor...

but NOWHERE does he give any evidence whatsoever as to the NATURE of the invention.

Why on earth would the prize for "Peace" be considered here...?

Now, if Stuart21 is Jewish (like Einstein) ... (the "apples-of-God's-Eyes", so to speak)... his chances for ANY of those (Nobel) prizes are certainly ... "enhanced" ... but ...

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#56
In reply to #53

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 5:31 PM

I said it sarcastically from some of the participates that had won it in the past was based on no real accomplishments except lip service. And lip service is all it is.

The Nobel Peace Prize 2009

Barack H. Obama

"for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples"

that's just one example, but if you care to analyze that also, go for it.

I can list more examples that rendering the value of the Nobel Peace prize, worthless.

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#59
In reply to #56

Re: Invention / Patents

01/06/2017 9:49 AM

"Ahhhhhh.....!" My apologies for not picking-up on the "sarcastic vibrations"...

(they were all-too-drowned-out by the disquieting cynicism, still resonating in this skull, for which continual - repeated prayer brings relief {albeit, still, temporary}).

The links you provided ("secondarily") say it all...(!) [and, I couldn't agree more!]

Perhaps (in the future), to preclude anyone from misconstruing your animus for 'ignorance' (or worse)... insert such-a-link in your 'primary' post, as in:

"But from Nobel's history*, the only category I can think of would be the Nobel Peace prize." {*See second slide}

Cheers ~ !

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#47

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 9:11 AM

I don't know about other countries, but in the US, the patent examiner would look at the original patent and call it prior art-even if it had not been practiced. The original inventor practiced it.

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#51

Re: Invention / Patents

01/05/2017 12:47 PM

One of the things I do not understand is why the OP did not patent this "thing" earlier, cause the idea of having an invention protected is (usually) to earn some money.... unless someone expects to live 200 years, not profitong for an invention for almost 40 years makes little sense to me

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#62

Re: Invention / Patents

01/08/2017 4:59 PM

What's the invention? I have seen quite a few people propose ideas they thought were new but turned out already exist in one way, shape or form hence were not patentable because they already exist.

Additionally have you searched the internet to see if the idea or some variant exists in the market today?

30+ years is a long time and if the idea has already been realised and is being used or in production for a while it may trump any prior art claims, regardless of how iron clad and provable they may be? And even if it doesn't you may need to fight legal claims for your prior art claim which may be beyond your economic ability to wage, and hence win (especially if your opponent has a strong legal team).

Quite a few things to think about.

So, in its simplicity what's the invention?

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#63
In reply to #62

Re: Invention / Patents

01/31/2017 3:31 AM

Jack,

This is the crux of my original question; if I disclose, I will (most likely) lose the rights. If you can give me a good reason why I should be deprived of my IP rights, merely because the invention entered the public domain, I will (think about) telling you.

Bear in mind that the purpose of the patent system (AFAIK) is to encourage inventors to solve the planets problems -

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Invention / Patents

01/31/2017 5:20 AM

Flip a coin, take the chance with a good lawyer, if you have lots of money, and see what happens. I doubt there is anyone qualified to answer your legal question here. And this statement about the patent system, don,t know who told you that rubbish? They don't encourage anything, anywhere at anytime for solving the problems of the planet.

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#65
In reply to #64

Re: Invention / Patents

01/31/2017 6:06 AM

"who told you that rubbish?"

It's in the constitution of the US of A.

'progress of the arts .............'

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: Invention / Patents

01/31/2017 6:43 AM

Research IP court cases and you will find it is quite ambiguous and fraught with legalise as to who owns Intellectual Property. If it is n your head in Australia the IP belongs to you. The minute you put pen to paper it all changes. hence the reason no individual private person does inventing while employed as you loose the rights to your IP. If your idea is in the public domain and being used, you loose. And anyone can then claim the IP to the invention. These are links for UK and I have a doubt they will be much different to the good old US. In fact, it probably will be more difficult in the good old USA as as money talks very loud there.

If you hold the patent and IP and all drawings and you have 100% proof you are the holder of the IP and invention, you have a case, a slim chance of winning, and you will need lots of dough.

As the laws are different in the USA you will need to research IP for there and have a good patent/IP lawyer and lots of time to waste. And if your employer gets wind of what you are doing, he may have a hold on you too so you need to check your contract of employment for IP clauses.

And I do say this, whatever is in your constitution is not worth diddley these days as far as the rest of the world can see from the goings on there. The BS is the same world wide.

Contact a lawyer and discover what you can legally do as this site really does not know your laws and what you are doing is not progressing the arts, it is greed for money or glory. I think on this one you have missed the bus. But do let us know how you get on with the lawyers and legal side to this. I wish you the best of luck.

https://www.marsdd.com/mars-library/intellectual-property-and-inventions-who-owns-the-ip/

http://www.darlingtons.com/blog/intellectual-property-rights-who-owns-ip-employer-or-employee

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#68
In reply to #66

Re: Invention / Patents

01/31/2017 2:28 PM

Yes, pretty much the day belongs to he who holds the spoils of the invention war. In other words, whomever gets to the market first with the most, and gleans the most money out of the idea first, is the winner in court (he can afford the better lawyer.).

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#69
In reply to #68

Re: Invention / Patents

01/31/2017 8:33 PM

Gentlemen;

I am not asking what patent law says. I know very well what it says; a very painful learning experience.

I am asking YOU GUYS do you agree that it is correct that I LOSE MY RIGHTS to my (proven - 35 years ago now!) invention, simply because it became public? e.g. if Popular Mechanics puts on its front cover that Stuart21 invented this great invention, should that not support patentability, rather than undermine it, costing me my rights?

Is the only way I can guarantee ownership of my invention, to make sure it gets cremated with me?

One day some of you will be asking this same question.

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: Invention / Patents

01/31/2017 9:37 PM

If you don't publish or try and bring your idea to fruition or even sell it to someone else to develop do you really deserve the credit for the invention?

Is the only way I can guarantee ownership of my invention, to make sure it gets cremated with me?

No. You will be dead and someone else will at some point come up with the idea and will follow it through and then be known to be the inventor that first came up with the idea.

History is full of people like this but you don't know who they were because the are lost to the ages.

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#71
In reply to #70

Re: Invention / Patents

01/31/2017 10:31 PM

Jack, the question is "I am asking YOU GUYS do you agree that it is correct that I LOSE MY RIGHTS to my (proven - 35 years ago now!) invention, simply because it became public?"

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#72
In reply to #71

Re: Invention / Patents

02/01/2017 2:49 AM

YES! It is correct that you lose your rights once you publish. Too bad, so sad. I too have lost my inventions to my employer/s. It is also true that i have published so that my invention becomes freely available for the good of all. My employer offered to conduct a feasibility study costing $10's of thousands for one of my inventions. I suggested making $10's of thousands of dollars worth of product and see how it sells. That suggestion was denied, no patent was pursued, so i published. The result was a cheaper product on the shelf in Auto stores and thereby a cheaper product for the limited use in hospitals.

Jim

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#73
In reply to #72

Re: Invention / Patents

02/01/2017 6:06 AM

I stayed in a holiday hotel once with a really noisy toilet cistern: it hissed for about an hour after it was flushed. I realised that the traditional ball cock inlet valve could be improved by introducing hysteresis. The way to do that was to place a leaky reservoir on top of the float, and, guide the inflow water into it. When the incoming water flow is less than the leak the reservoir empties, the float rises higher, and the valve closes tight.

I sent the idea to a magazine (Eureka), when they asked for new inventions from readers, and they published it.

I was really surprised when I moved into my current house about 4 years ago to see that the toilet cistern inlet valves are designed in exactly that way. Of course I will never know whether or not the designer saw my letter or came up with the idea independently.

I wonder if the idea was patentable? Could I have made loads of money?

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#75
In reply to #73

Re: Invention / Patents

02/01/2017 11:34 AM

Yeah, and all along it was only a bad flapper valve. LOL.,

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#76
In reply to #72

Re: Invention / Patents

02/22/2017 1:11 PM

"YES! It is correct that you lose your rights once you publish."

Is that a considered opinion, Jim, or is it based on 'I got kicked in the teeth, so Stuart gotta get kicked in the teeth, too!

How is that a better patent system, that paranoidizes inventors into just NEVER publishing? 35 yrs now, approaching 2 patent terms!

Sort of not achieving its' ends, no?

BTW, in most jurisdictions, the employer gets the invention only if you were employed to invent / develop / engineer products, in 'THAT FIELD'.

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#77
In reply to #76

Re: Invention / Patents

02/22/2017 7:50 PM

"YES! It is correct that you lose your rights once you publish." If you want qualification i am happy to state i am not a patent attorney. If you want a definitive answer then you should see some patent attorneys in the jurisdiction.

"BTW, in most jurisdictions, the employer gets the invention only if you were employed to invent / develop / engineer products, in 'THAT FIELD'."

If you are employed by a brickworks and you invent a better mousetrap your employer could argue that you saw the problem at work and, indeed, you did development work at your employers premises. Your protestations that you had a problem at home and that is why you worked on it, entirely in your backyard shed would fall on deaf ears. They would likely be successful in taking the patent. Ask yourself, no,no, do not ask yourself, you are way too emotionally involved to give yourself an honest answer! Ask a patent attorney whether s/he thinks your former employer could make a claim. An insight into your psyche comes from your question

"Is that a considered opinion, Jim, or is it based on 'I got kicked in the teeth, so Stuart gotta get kicked in the teeth, too!"

I had not said i got kicked in the teeth. In fact i was chuffed that my ideas helped the employer and very pleased that a patent was granted. I also learnt quite bit during my discussions with the patent attorney. For instance it would be almost impossible to patent a cup but i could register a design. I could also register a design for something that was totally unique and impossible to make in a different way/design and not need a patent to protect it.

As for your question about fairness. I have said before and i say again that i LIKE the idea of being able to publish an invention so that others cannot profit from my idea. Fairness is in the eye of the beholder. You should also consider that some countries don't much care about patents and will manufacture and market your product without a care. I have also heard about an inventer who didn't seek patents because he knew there would be expensive fights with others who made similar things. Instead he sought a job with them. You are getting older and it will be getting harder to make your product due to regulations and with time someone else will come up with a similar product or even a totally different one that does the job better than yours. It may even transpire that the need for your product dissolves.

I am asking myself; why haven't you already made this device/product? My answer is that you don't have the capacity, in energy, money, time or drive. Lack of any one of those things will set you up to fail, even with a patent.

Look after your ego and don't let the Id control you.

Jim

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#78
In reply to #77

Re: Invention / Patents

02/24/2017 9:05 PM

It seems we are on different wavelengths, Jim.

I am asking 'what is correct'?

You are telling me 'what is the law'.

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#79
In reply to #78

Re: Invention / Patents

03/15/2017 12:00 AM

Jim?

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#80
In reply to #79

Re: Invention / Patents

03/15/2017 9:21 PM

Sorry, i didn't think you wanted a reply. "What is correct?" Do you mean "What is right and fair?" OR "What does the law say?" OR something else.

I have said i am not an attorney so i can't answer "What does the law say?"

I have said that i think the current situation is fair and right. I am under the impression that the Japanese have a different life view about inventions. They feel that a combination of necessity and prior developments will automatically lead to new inventions. Because of this view they don't revere inventors as much as the Americans and other western countries. I have seen my inventions eventually made by others even though i haven't published or made them.

e.g. a horse float that has inflatable bags on the walls so that the horse doesn't get hurt. An extension of this is a van that carts flower arrangements. The horse float idea is now patented and marketed.

Where i worked the nurses had to fill an endoscope cleaner with glueraldehyde. This process created a mist that eventually led to them being unable to ever work in a hospital again. I invented a cap that they could fix a length of garden hose to and then insert the hose into a tight hole i made in the machine. The mist laden air would replace the liquid in the container ( as gravity pulled the liquid into the tank ) and be trapped. I suggested to the boss that in order to get these made cheaply the maker could sell them through Auto stores as an aid to top up Auto Trans Fluid. That is what they did.

I am only telling you this to back up my claim that i am not interested in patenting and making products. I also think that the 16 yrs of protection is not enough in some instances. By the time your idea has been fully developed and manufacturing sorted out to the point where your product is reliable, cost effective and attractive to purchasers the time left to make a profit may be too little. Also, there are always smarter people out there who can see your target market and satisfy the demand in a better way. Look at the Wright Bros vs Curtiss story. Curtiss' 'plane was better but the Wrights sued and a patent war ensued that broke the Wrights and the Curtiss design prevailed.

I know your invention is a world beater and has not yet been thought of by another inventor. Your original post asked if anyone could think of any reason why you shouldn't be granted a patent. Have you actually been denied a patent? If so, on what grounds?

Jim

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#74
In reply to #69

Re: Invention / Patents

02/01/2017 11:31 AM

According to what is right and wrong under God, I must agree that it is wrong to take your intellectual property from you, and steal it, just as it would be wrong to steal a chicken from you. On the other hand, you cannot have stolen what you hand to the world willingly, and say, "Here take this and run with it on my blessings."

In which instance will you be loved and remembered? Probably neither, just based on human nature.

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#67
In reply to #63

Re: Invention / Patents

01/31/2017 1:41 PM

With no further information, we cannot really offer any other advice to you other than to contact an IP/patent lawyer for specific legal advice. If you don't want to share any further details, that is fine.

purpose of the patent system

That may be and still is part of its original intention, but it's really only to help provide some form of limited legal protection.

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