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The Origin Of Water?

01/30/2017 1:29 PM

I read this report on from New Scientist a few days ago. It's about water being created within the earths mantle via a high pressure chemical reaction and so forth. I haven't seen much about it popping up elsewhere yet it seems like kind of a big deal? It will involve a fair amount of backpedaling if accurate.

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#1

Re: The origin of water?

01/30/2017 2:08 PM

Well pretty much wherever you dig eventually you hit water so yes this is not hard to believe....

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: The origin of water?

01/30/2017 3:01 PM

..Yeah and gravity will suck it down any hole.

What's in question is whether or not water cale from terrestrial sources or extra.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: The origin of water?

01/30/2017 3:04 PM

My money is that water will have the same isotopic ratios as terrestrial water (nod, nod, wink, wink).

I could save them a hell of a lot of money on that test.

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#7
In reply to #4

Re: The origin of water?

01/30/2017 3:38 PM

It appears that I didn't know much about hydrogen at all.

The liquid is known to exist well over 1000 K, although this does require pressures approaching millions of atmospheres.

Is liquid metallic hydrogen known to exist with physical observations? Harvard scientists seem to have observed for the first time, solid metallic hydrogen. This in itself is big news.

So this new theory of water basically states that hydrogen was part of primordial earth, just as the sun, and the other planets, and this was compressed to liquid hydrogen or liquid metallic hydrogen by the formation of the planet without it being lost to space around the planet. I find that improbable, but I am just a student of some fifty years now of science, not an expert. How do I know some was not trapped by the intensity of colliding objects, or even of Earth 1.0 colliding with Terra (or whatever she was named), thus forming Earth 2.0 and the moon?

In such a case, there should be vast amounts of water under the surface of the moon.

Certainly sufficient to support colonization.

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#12
In reply to #7

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 12:04 AM

With increasing temperature below, how is hydrogen can even be liquid? Quite a story in the back woods, James.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 12:20 AM

Hydrogen can be liquefied at high temps under extreme pressure but pretty unlikely at the pressures found a few hundred to a thousand km beneath Earth's surface.

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#16
In reply to #13

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 8:30 AM

I ask, how do they know this to be factual as the deepest hole they have ever drilled in the earths mantle is only 12km deep, Kola in Russia. So I think pure speculation on behalf of scientists at hundred/thousands of km.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 8:37 AM

Computer simulation! It will tell you anything you programme it to say. Still, 40km is 28km short of any actual evidence or sampling that has been taken.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 8:41 AM

I think we can be pretty sure the pressure doesn't suddenly leap to 80 million bars at 29 km.

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 8:56 AM

I am pretty sure in this day and age, power lies with he who controls water supplies. After all there are many many lava streams to bypass and reality is, after 12km who knows what is down there.

It may be Coolyaar and an earth faulted 2v battery. It could even be the Equatorial line shorting with the Capricorn line. After all it is at earth potential.

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#25
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Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 10:30 AM

Where did you get 80 Mbar? On the phase map I have, it shows liquid hydrogen from low temperatures and pressures far below 1 Mbar all the way up to 2000 K, and as high pressure as about 2.5 Mbar. Liquid metal (atomic??) hydrogen is apparently known to exist at these same temperatures at higher pressures than that.

Solid metallic hydrogen is not predicted until pressures way above 4 Mbar (450 GPa to be precise) are reached.

I for one am glad to see these postings as a tremendous learning opportunity for me.

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#28
In reply to #25

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 12:54 PM

It was that or pick some other ridiculously unlikely pressure at that depth to illustrate that we can reasonably expect the physics of Earth's interior won't suddenly be different simply because we haven't been there. 80 Mbar happens to be the estimated pressure at centre of Jupiter - not that we've been there either - but the exact value is irrelevant in the context.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 1:44 PM

When I read about the Kola drill results, the unexpected things they learned outweighed the expected.

No basalt under granite. That was a big one. That and lost souls screaming, supposedly.

I fail to believe we can hear the screams of lost souls, otherwise living on this planet would be deafening by now. Hell has already expanded adiabatically to the point of freezing over, and this has increased the upper mantle pressure by many orders of magnitude from the former value of 1 (whatever unit you want).

That is what I like about fake news, it can go somewhere from anywhere and take you through most everywhere. Before you know it, you get there.

Back to the topic at hand: now we are about to start drilling at the thinnest part of the crust east of Africa, so apparently it is only one step from hell there.

What will be found? More fossils all the way down? Why? Earth 1.0 vs. Earth 2.0?

Did the Earth form from dust and hydrogen gas? How could it not have, since the sun is mostly hydrogen?

So far the evidence we have of water inclusions in mantle minerals is a diamond from Brazil that has been scrutinized by various spectroscopic methods. Is that all?

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#30
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Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 2:02 PM

"Did the Earth form from dust and hydrogen gas? How could it not have, since the sun is mostly hydrogen?"

Not only this, but oxygen is the third most abundant element in the Universe. That hydrogen and oxygen would meet up in space to form water - lots of it - seems rather inevitable. It only makes sense that the various bodies in the Solar System would contain significant amounts.

"So far the evidence we have ... diamond from Brazil..."

Direct evidence, but there is indirect seismic data that also suggests this is the case.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 2:31 PM

All in all a good topic for discussion, and once again you and others have taught me something from it, thank you.

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#32
In reply to #17

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 2:36 PM

Can't you just see the grant request of some university professor coming to try to get the data? He'd be visiting you.

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#24
In reply to #16

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 10:22 AM

Geophysicists are like Russian intelligence operatives. They have their ways.

It mostly involves measurements of how waves of various types are propagated through the earth to observers.

Maybe the only way they can explain certain observations of silica minerals is to have water form in voids in the minerals. I am having a hard time understanding how chemical bond energies, angles, etc. can change due to intense applied pressure so that minerals of the "same" composition have vastly different physical densities. Example: silica mineral such as surface quartz has a density near 2. Silica mineral from deep in the earth, the density is near double or more. I find that shocking and incredible, and wonder why?

How do you the fellows at LANL did not bore a deeper hole, and just shut up about what they found?

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#27
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Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 10:34 AM
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#34
In reply to #24

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 6:40 PM

Simple, electron orbital shrink with tremendous pressure.

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 7:43 PM

Not at terrestrial pressures they don't. More like pressures in the cores of stars. In the extreme case, neutron stars, where electrons are mashed all the way into the nucleus, but now you're talking densities on the order of 100 million tons per teaspoonful.

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#37
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Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 10:00 PM

This may sound like a strange question, but If you 'bump' two atoms together might the electrons vibrate imperceptibly?

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#42
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Re: The origin of water?

02/01/2017 11:42 AM

how can anything vibrate and be imperceptibly at the same time? It either is you is, or is you ain't my constituents.

Physicists keep telling us that it is electrons we feel when we bump into something. I just feel a freaking lump on my head.

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#44
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Re: The origin of water?

02/02/2017 12:09 PM

..uhhh.. Because we don't have the equipment to measure such a minute resonance?

..on a larger scale. (we couldn't detect or see this massive/minute disturbance without getting in reaaaal close)

same as at a smaller scale..

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#41
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Re: The origin of water?

02/01/2017 11:26 AM

It is not so much they get mashed, it is actually that other fields are doing severe mashing first. I will leave it up to you to calculate the effect of gravitational field on wavefunctions (not on free electrons, as that is easily done).

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#39
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Re: The origin of water?

02/01/2017 11:21 AM

Precisely how long have you been huffing gasoline, old chap?

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#23
In reply to #12

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 10:15 AM

Go google the phase diagram of hydrogen and you will learn something (or not), as I did.

I admit to not being all-knowing as some apparently think they are, but you have not one excuse.

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#35
In reply to #23

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 7:23 PM

Ya know? I started to look at phase diagrams and now I know less than before!?

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#40
In reply to #35

Re: The origin of water?

02/01/2017 11:24 AM

Whoever came up with that needs to be bound to a post and whipped with a wet noodle.

Then they should have to explain to the entire class why they made such an over-complicated chart.

Then they need to write "K.I.S.S." on the blackboard about 20,000 times without leaving out one period.

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#8
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Re: The origin of water?

01/30/2017 3:47 PM

Well if it's extraterrestrial in origin, then all the planet's should have underground springs....

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#14
In reply to #8

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 2:38 AM

...and, by extension, perhaps all rocky planets of similar mass.

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#2

Re: The origin of water?

01/30/2017 2:41 PM

Does this lend credence back to the Holy Bible's references to the "chambers of the deep"...? Let me see, 2H2 + SiO2 -> Si + 2H2O, is this the net reaction? Is there evidence at all for elemental free silicon in the earth mantle?

The principle investigator himself says he thinks most of Earth's water did in fact come from meteorological events (raining down with meteors, comets, asteroids, etc.). Our weather used to be really, really lumpy.

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#33
In reply to #2

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 2:46 PM

Hail! Hail! The gang's all here.

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#3

Re: The origin of water?

01/30/2017 2:46 PM

Reckon how the hydrogen got down there...?

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: The origin of water?

01/30/2017 3:02 PM

You did notice they were saying liquid hydrogen... really? at 1400°?

Apparently, someone needs to show me the data. I am having a Missouri-like moment.

Ever read a news story, and then some minutes later have "buyers remorse", like you drove this off the show-room floor, and now you are stuck with it? Like you've been had?

I am feeling the burn around the edges right now, unless someone can prove otherwise, I am going to assume that I got burned.

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#11
In reply to #5

Re: The origin of water?

01/31/2017 12:02 AM

That is why, there are low tides and high tides. Well, whatever!

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#9

Re: The Origin Of Water?

01/30/2017 5:36 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_water_on_Earth

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#10

Re: The Origin Of Water?

01/30/2017 10:30 PM

Why must it be either/or? Why not comets etc. and chemical reactions within the Earth?

Then we have that 1400-degree liquid hydrogen. Okay... Hydrogen can be liquefied at high temps under tremendous pressure, but we're talking pressures found deep inside mighty Jupiter, not those a mere 1000 km down inside a paltry little pebble like Earth.

Sometimes you have to take what New Scientist tells you with a grain of salt; they're exactly known for their journalistic rigour. Sometimes they turn out good articles in spite of themselves even if they may not always be able to tell the difference.

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#19
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Re: The Origin Of Water?

01/31/2017 8:47 AM

I did look up some phase diagrams for hydrogen and got some edumacation.

However, I do not know the pressure at the mantle interface on Earth. Apparently, the core pressure is up to 3 million atmospheres, so this does leave room for the speculation of or even confirmation of liquid hydrogen in the mantle. I find it hard to believe anything, much less lithospheric structures could float on that.

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#22
In reply to #19

Re: The Origin Of Water?

01/31/2017 9:59 AM

From what I just read, the mantle / crust boundary starts at 237,000 atmospheres and goes up to 1.3 million at the mantle / core.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140522141432.htm

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#26
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Re: The Origin Of Water?

01/31/2017 10:31 AM

Thank you for that important tidbit. Good answer!

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#15

Re: The Origin Of Water?

01/31/2017 7:43 AM

I agree that water would come from terrestrial as well as outer space sources.

Water / ice is a likely feature of of many planets within the goldilocks zone.

What I'm wondering about is where the extraterrestrial water would come from? Wouldn't it be formed the same way in another place? Would it be blasted from another planet long ago? Otherwise a comet of ice comes from where? Spontaneous liquefaction?

It's my understanding that the lumpy weather of planet formation has cosmic dust origins that begin with the birth of a star.

As for the New Scientist being a good or bad source for scientific news..

Can anybody name a news source that is always or way more often accurate? I'd love to have some links.

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#20
In reply to #15

Re: The Origin Of Water?

01/31/2017 8:56 AM

Being Human endeavours, none are infallible of course, but their quality also falls on a continuum. Because National Enquirer is a schmuck rag, would you throw out The Atlantic with it? If not, why not?

As science rags go, Nature.com is one of the better ones.

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#38

Re: The Origin Of Water?

01/31/2017 11:34 PM

I read a similar story that said crude oil is created in the same way and that is why it too will never run out.

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#43
In reply to #38

Re: The Origin Of Water?

02/01/2017 11:43 AM

If temperatures and pressures as found, with hydrogen and carbon lying around, then say what we should not go ahead and -- wait for it -- concatenate.

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