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Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/18/2017 7:00 AM

http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/death-diesel-cars/article/1207910

With the recent announcements from within the UK and EU, the diesel vehicle is in its death throws. All down to the high pollution levels they create. It is looked to be fully off the roads by 2020 and only petrol, hybrid and electric vehicles will be operating on roads.

Countries like the UK, France, Italy, Germany to name a few have announced this reform will take place. How is this being accepted in the rest of the world?

Electric vehicles I actually don't have an issue with the concept, the vehicles and the idea behind it all. However, I have an issue in knowing that utilities companies are struggling to stay profitable as more and more people utilise solar systems. However, when one calculates costs, they, (electrical vehicles), are not efficient in costs, including initial purchase price and associated costs to put the vehicle on the road.

(A vehicle is purchased with a battery. If the battery is redundant, what is the true value of the vehicle without a source?)

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/preowned?model=ms

They are not cheap even 2nd hand. (See link above).

The utilities provider is complaining of over loads on the grid at present, so adding additional charging points and additional charging at home, does not alleviated electrical loads on a grid. These grids being dependent on oil, coal, gas or nuclear plants to provide the electrical source to charge up a vehicle.

Before people jump on the wind farms, they are not sufficient to provide loads required, as some may know from recent load shedding that took pace in Australia this month. No wind, no power supply, and many blackouts and load shedding.

So how is this death of diesel vehicles affecting other countries where you reside? Will it change your daily life enough to swap for electric?

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#1

Re: Death of diesel vehicles

02/18/2017 7:29 AM

'....With the recent announcements from within the UK and EU, the diesel vehicle is in its death throws. All down to the high pollution levels they create. ....'

.

The link you provided says nothing that might be reasonably interpreted as 'recent announcements from within the UK and EU' leading to diesel 'death throws'.

.

This is the second to the last sentence/paragraph in the article:

'....So diesel is far from dead. Instead, it has found an equilibrium at today's fuel prices and with today's technology...'

This is pretty much the antithesis of what you wrote.

Diesels can be very efficient and also very clean with new exhaust systems. Likely to be cleaner that the coal many electric vehicles burn.

Volkswagen's PR blunder certainly diminished diesel car sales. Public attitudes are often fickle, reactionary, and light in the logic department.

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#2

Re: Death of diesel vehicles

02/18/2017 8:39 AM

This is not likely to occur in your lifetime.....or your children's lifetime...

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#3

Re: Death of diesel vehicles

02/18/2017 10:08 AM

Actually it is passed as some clever law in the UK. Diesels have been marked for being totally 'gone' on any public road by 2020. In Birmingham, the new 'laws', 'rules from the Eu have made it clear to the city council, to remove all black taxis from the roads or face a £60m fine. A big pow wow took pace last week on this matter in Birmingham.

The taxi owners, (they are all privately owned and run), must change to LPG (gas) at £8000.00 per conversion, or wait until the new electric black taxis is available next year.

It is a serious issue in the UK. Or a money making racket, as normal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31823252

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39001734 Latest news on diesels 17 Feb 2017

http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/18/old-diesel-car-drivers-to-be-charged-extra-10-to-drive-in-london-6456703/

Taxis link; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-38990253

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Death of diesel vehicles

02/18/2017 5:01 PM

How is it that what you write diverges so strongly from the links you provide? Are you really getting this confused, or have you caught the 'emotions trump factual accuracy' fever?

.

There is nothing in your links indicating a ban on diesel passenger cars in the UK, much less a ban on all diesel vehicles.

.

The only mention of someone suggesting a ban was the mayor of Paris suggesting diesels be banned from Paris by 2020. Not any actual rules, just a suggestion by the mayor. I doubt the British have suddenly become so keen on emulating whimsical comments of a Parisian mayor.

.

There is mention of levying taxes on OLD diesels driving in new clean zones. Not new clean diesels, just old diesels.

.

Do you harbor some ill will toward up to date diesel technology?

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#8
In reply to #3

Re: Death of diesel vehicles

02/18/2017 9:21 PM

The shift from gasoline to diesel in Europe began 25 years ago and is still trending in that direction today....

...as you can see the US is by far the leading buyer for electric cars....and the ev has less than a 1% market share of new cars sold here....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_the_United_States

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#23
In reply to #3

Re: Death of diesel vehicles

02/19/2017 4:44 PM

We need to take note of the Councillors and Politicians who promote that nonsense and vote them out when next elections roll around.

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#4

Re: Death of diesel vehicles

02/18/2017 11:30 AM

BALONEY

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#5

Re: Death of diesel vehicles

02/18/2017 12:49 PM

I find these suposedly all encompassing 'do it or else' government mandates amusing.

To me they just reinforce how cluelessly isolated the majority of government officials are from the majority of the people they want to push their agenda on and how clueless they are in regards to the very infrastructure that supports the societies they govern as well.

The article linked to was written in 2013 some 7 years before the expected full elimination of diesels is to take place. At present 2017 some four years have passed and what percentage of the diesel vehicles have been replaced by now, ~4 - 5%?

In 2016 ~50% of European vehicles were still diesel.

Kind of thinking they wont hit their 2020 goal by a long shot.

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#7

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/18/2017 5:43 PM

This whole topic immediately went south with the mention of death "throws" [sic].

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/18/2017 10:03 PM

Actually, your comment made the whole discussion worthwhile. I was ignorant to 'throes' prior to this.

Thanks for the upgrade.

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#12
In reply to #9

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 1:19 AM

Maybe he meant death blows.....

Haaaaiiiiiiaaahhh....!

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 1:54 AM

Sure, death blows....

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#18
In reply to #12

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 11:53 AM

According to Google, there are no results for the word ( sic) , Haaaaiiiiiiaaahhh !

In this image, the correct word would be, Ai Ya. ( Pronounced : Hi Ya. / The " i " in Hi is a long vowel sound & the " a " in Ya carries the same sound as the " aw " in the English word " raw ".

Although not as dramatic in expression as, Haaaaiiiiiiaaahhh !

Yet when spelled correctly, the word and it's meaning can be used in a multitude of contexts.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 2:06 PM

It's not a word, it's a sound denoting the raising of the chi....

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 2:32 PM

Conversation over heard at Chery motors dealership:

Chinese man # 1 : I hear you trade in your diesel car for an electric car ??

Chinese man # 2 : Hi Ya !

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#17
In reply to #9

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 7:34 AM

Actually THROWS is the correct word for this topic. I.E. diesel vehicles have drastically reduced in value due to this new regulation. Currently 2nd hand vehicle prices is at a low. With this regulation on the go, no one will upgrade their vehicles, as the upgrade cost versus the value of the vehicle is not economically viable.

Currently a 2nd hand diesel in the UK can be purchased for as little as £200.00.-£500.00. Hence, a majority of people cannot afford the upgrade or will not upgrade, and will consequently scrap the vehicle. (Throw it away as scrap).

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#20
In reply to #17

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 2:11 PM

The same can be said for any cars anywhere.....but you get what you pay for...

https://www.gumtree.com/cars/uk/diesel

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#26
In reply to #17

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/20/2017 1:41 AM

Once again, what new regulation? Have any links that actually lend support to what you are claiming?

What is your angle here? Are you short some diesel tech companyand trying to finagle some negative market sentiment to you benefit?

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/20/2017 4:04 AM

'So how is this death of diesel vehicles affecting other countries where you reside? Will it change your daily life enough to swap for electric?'

I think my question was clear as mud and had very little to do with spoon feeding. Actually I have nothing what so ever to do with the fuel or diesel engine market. And No, nothing to do with marketing or any such idiotic notion. A simple question to discover if this idea is being proposed anywhere else in the world.

I can understand your confusion so I stated the question for you in italics above.

And, if I could find something more pertinent, besides what is bandied about on the news channels, I would certainly post it.

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#34
In reply to #27

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/20/2017 1:15 PM

I have never accepted as valid the proposition that "there are no stupid questions", so merely forming your assertion as a question doesn't provide immunity from queries about substantiation.

Also, you have made clear statements not phrased as questions that lack any support in the links you provided.

Mine is not a query about what your statements mean, so much as a query into what combination of factors leads someone to shamelessly misrepresent the story while linking contradictory articles and to neglect opportunity to correct such deviance even after problems have been noted in detail.

What gives?

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/20/2017 4:47 PM

Ah Begeez, Look again, can you not see the fine print in Samarian hieroglyphs, just off set and between the lines to right of centre.

Yep just there, left and scan, see it?

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#10

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/18/2017 10:39 PM

You mean death throes. Throws are a ball game or gaming or pottery term. None of those here.

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#11

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 12:45 AM

I get close to 700 miles on a standard tank of diesel. When an electric car can match that, I'll definitely think seriously about getting one.

Meanwhile, I will be keeping an eye on hybrids, although they have almost twice as many parts prone to failure.

I've had a number of trips to Europe. It has been at least a decade since I last drove a non-diesel there.

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 1:47 AM

TDI is a great engine....too bad the aren't selling new in the US anymore.

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#15

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 2:57 AM

Nope.

I am thinking, to couple one of this (engine mounted) near future

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#16

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 5:30 AM

When cracked 22% of crude oil has a carbon chain length of 8-21 atoms which makes it suitable for use as diesel fuel but not for much else, although there is some overlap with petrol which utilizes carbon chain lengths of up to 12 atoms. So if you ban diesel cars what are you going to do with all the redundant material? LPG represents about 4% of crude oil derivatives and until the oil industry got it's act together and started to market this as a fuel it was mostly flared off at the well head. The introduction of LPG at filling stations increased the level vehicle pollution but had the reverse effect on overall hydrocarbon pollution. Vehicle owners that switched to LPG reduced their use of other carbon fuels and the LPG which is now being utilized productively would have been burned anyway.

All the hype about banning diesel and replacing petrol with electric is hogwash until either somebody finds an alternative use for the redundant fraction of crude, or until there are alternatives for all of the products we currently derive from crude and we can stop pumping the stuff out of the ground. It has been done in the past. Kerosene went from domestic lighting to aircraft fuel. Bitumen went from lino to roofing felt. Find a new use for the diesel fraction and we can ban diesel cars, but if the new use burns diesel where is the pollution saving? Until then our best bet is new technology to clean vehicle exhaust gas emissions. (Like maybe running VWs full time on the test program software and living with the reduced performance. Why not kill two birds with one stone and reduce accidents figures from cars that are no longer capable of exceeding the speed limit.) The EU have threatened to fine some UK cities for high pollution levels and they may go ahead and carry out that threat, but it is a revenue raising exercise and has nothing to do with improving the environment.

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#22
In reply to #16

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 4:26 PM

How about a fuel cell that uses diesel as feedstock? Then you've got diesel-electric, best of both worlds.

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 7:34 PM

Looked promising some time ago....from 2010

Power plants: These two prototype fuel-cell stacks from SAFCell generate electricity from hydrogen, even if it’s derived from diesel fuel and is contaminated with as much as 20 percent carbon monoxide. Both are made of 10 connected fuel cells. The small one–measuring three inches in diameter–generates 30 watts, and the larger one 200 watts.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/421277/cheap-diesel-powered-fuel-cells/

http://www.safcell.com/what-is-a-safc

http://www.safcell.com/news/

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/19/2017 8:43 PM

Interesting! ...but if it hasn't generated news since 2010, there must have been some unexpected obstacles. Perhaps they couldn't find a cheap enough catalyst.

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#30
In reply to #25

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/20/2017 8:04 AM

Well the obvious fact they couldn't manage to use the right length of bolts for their design and instead used ones way too long with a load of washers to make them work for me makes for a compelling indication they weren't putting too much effort into refining their design before showing it off to the public.

Was either going to the hardware store and spending $5 for ones that were the right length or at least cutting off the excess on these that much of a problem to overcome?

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#28

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/20/2017 5:08 AM

Much of the hype is about the ultra-fine particulates and Nitrogen Oxides & the health issues they create, even modern derv burners with exhaust filters and all the tech still emit some.

The UK has a major problem, most large cities with pollution problems are also major transport hubs, the 'greens' see attacking 'private' car ownership as the easier option, the transport lobby is huge and co-ordinated. The city I'm in has an airport, a sea port with huge containerised through put onto both rail and roads, the ships often don't use shore-side power leaving their gen-sets running.

The pollution from the 'donkey' engines often run on red (no road fuel tax) dirty diesel on ~1 million chiller box trucks, often running most of the time throughout europe, as they do even if not carrying anything that needs to be kept cold/frozen like farm machinery (yes I've seen that with my own eyes), if running on cleaner 'white' derv is said to equal 56 million diesel cars in normal use, so where the real problem?

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/20/2017 6:40 AM

Than you, as this was where I was going with the question.

Shipping and the heavy goods road transport, which is prolific in the UK, causes more problem than private owned vehicles. Yet, I see nothing or hear nothing about curbing their pollution.

Is this just another EU grab for easy money or a serious push to have electric vehicles only, in city areas?

Is this notion happening elsewhere outside the EU and UK.

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#31
In reply to #29

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/20/2017 8:13 AM

It's a bit of both, they pushed diesel cars for their greater fuel efficiency AND lower CO2 emissions, road diesel was ~10% cheaper before the mass uptake of diesel cars in the UK, now it's ~5% more expensive, though as road fuel is a multiple tax commodity with taxes charged on taxes and a major income stream for the gov't, international haulage firms from Europe working into the UK fit huge fuel tanks and refuel in France before crossing the channel as derv is much cheaper (less taxed) there.

The 'greens' have been pursuing an agenda in the EU, setting ever lower limits, which in some ways is no bad thing, though the VW emissions fiasco has proven unless every vehicle is tested in the real world the numbers are meaningless. They hold little real power in the UK, most people see them as killjoy environMENTALists and won't vote for them, so they have been using EU pollution rules as a stick to beat both the gov't and the average 'man in the street' with.

Now the European Commission, driven by the 'greens' (and as a punitive attack following the Brexit vote to leave in all probability) is threatening to take the UK Gov't to the European court of justice over it's failure to meet the reduced pollution limits, so from April all car VED (tax) classes will be increasing in cost, from some low pollution cars at £0 per annum first year of use and £40 per year thereafter will be going up to £140 and £420 respectively. A nice little earner and it'll be enforced with vigor.

Though a number of Euro cities now ban vehicles over a certain age, require a pollution sticker (and the 'tax' cost of buying it) on newer vehicles, London has it's 'congestion' and 'low emissions zone' charges and has effectively banned a lot of older vehicles from London, other UK cities are following this, as much for extra income as anything else. The true source of industrial and commercial transport pollution will remain virtually unchanged.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/20/2017 8:28 AM

That is pretty much what I though and gathered with the UK and EU. Just another money making racket. Thanks for the info.

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#33

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/20/2017 11:19 AM
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#36

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/22/2017 1:37 AM

No effect here locally. We love our diesels. Also, a relatively high percentage of passenger vehicles sold here are in the SUV and bakkies (pickup trucks or utes to the rest of the world), and their fuel consumption is horrendous in petrol format, diesels are about 50% or more lighter on fuel, especially at the speeds we uh sometimes drive..

And I suspect that here, as in the rest of the world, most logistics on land are powered by heave trucks - diesel powered ones at that. Last I checked in Europe, trucks and barges were diesel-powered, so no, one thing you can be sure of is that come 2020, diesel will still be very much in use in Europe.

Ok, so now I go for electric. (Uh, actually no I won't 'cause there are no charging station here and how do I do the 1400km to Cape Town in 14hrs without charging?) Anyway, now I'm with it! Cool! Green! (Choose your tick-box.) Except, you need to charge it. And currently, most of that lovely juice is from coal-fired power plants, not the cleanest form of energy. Eventually we'll get it from less polluting sources, but not by 2020. Just check the our Highveld (where the bulk of the coal-fired power plants are) on a winter's morning when the temperature inversion layer keeps all the pollution nicely close to the ground, cough-cough-cough. Because, damn it, everyone is now charging their vehicles at home at night when the sun refuses to shine, and peak-shifting technology is still a tad expensive. Oh, and to build all the green energy generation systems requires you to move the raw materials to a factory of some sort. With a diesel-powered truck...

I rather suspect that regulations will become stricter, for light and heavy vehicles, and as always, the motor industry will bitch and moan and then find solutions until newer technologies catches up in price and practicality.

Leave my diesel alone!

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/22/2017 3:39 AM

Just a days driving in Joeys would deplete the battery and in charging up at an outlet, someone would zick the extension lead along with your car.

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#37

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/22/2017 3:32 AM

From what I have noted from some comments, this move is limited to the UK and some Eu cities, and another form of obtaining financial support to a ailing Union to bolster its financial woes.

I noted in an article that the pollution levels in some cities have been attributed to causing alzheimer's disease which was linked to the diesel vehicles. I could possibly agree with their findings, as there are few roads in the UK that don't carry a constant stream of traffic. Very few open areas and a great deal of vehicles, and more being added on a daily basis.

It does puzzle though, why the UK and EU countries still run diesel buses in cities when they could be running hydrogen cells or electric as they do in many other countries. Sweden runs electric and biofuel (rape seed), Adelaide runs hydrogen buses, and I will say this, Adelaide is probably the cleanest city for air. So I do question the ban on diesel for Joe Public when particularly London could have been cleaning air pollution long ago with more efficient public transport systems rather than waiting until now.

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#39
In reply to #37

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/22/2017 1:16 PM

I realize you have ignored earlier requests for links supporting your assertion about UK and parts of EU banning private diesel passenger cars, so I don't hold much hope for that request.

The assertion linking 'diesel vehicles' to 'causing alzheimer's', is a new (for this post) claim. As such, I have some hope you might provide a link....one that actually supports the claim you make. On second though, whatever link you think relevant will do. No need for me to get too demanding.

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/22/2017 1:40 PM

Let me politely correct you, not MY claims but claims from the NHS, An Taisce,and a few others. And as you seem to be void of checking any data yourself or researching, I have provided a link for you. Ye, I am a nice person.....at times..

http://www.antaisce.org/articles/diesel-fumes-linked-to-alzheimer%E2%80%99s

http://dieselfuelinjections.com/view/134-190973.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2547008/Can-car-exhaust-fumes-cause-dementia-Asthma-Heart-attacks-Cancer-Even-diabetes-Why-experts-fear-traffic-pollution-linked-list-health-problems.html

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080311075339.htm

No doubt that will keep you amused for a while. And lead you to further investigation on your own. Shall I look forward to your further comments and your amazement with the outside worlds going-ons? I shall hold my breath!

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/22/2017 2:06 PM

No. Until you clarify, they are just your claims.

.

I do want to extend a congratulations to you for an excellent job linking support for your claims. Not only do you have several sources, but the linked articles do actually support the claims you made. Good job.

.

....perhaps, now with confidence that you can accomplish such a task, you can use that as a model and provide some support for your earlier claims about private citizen diesel passenger cars being banned in the UK?

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#42
In reply to #41

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/22/2017 2:27 PM

Fawkes, You took your time. Did you stop for a lesson in whinning or a cup of tea? Maybe both perchance?

Thankfully NeilJohn understood English and answered my question, oddly without offering a link, and directing myself up another avenue of search. No worry though, I am sure the operation will be a success.

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#45
In reply to #41

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/23/2017 4:37 AM

Here's a link for you to follow https://foe.online-news.org.uk/prod/jan2017/quiz.html

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#46
In reply to #45

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/23/2017 8:05 AM

These are just statements, just numbers thrown out. Any proof or back up will be needed for that to be believed. It appears to fall under the category of scaremongering as most of the things Al Gore says.

Is that your picture, sir?

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/23/2017 8:32 AM

Given the pollution monitoring stations around this city (Southampton) regularly showing high levels of particulates and NOx, and fellow asthmatics living in the city having issues I don't, and I live literally on the side of the M27 motorway, I think there is more to it than simply scaremongering.

As I've commented before, the most badly polluted places are industrial/transport hubs, around Southampton we have lots of industry, including oil refining, the docks, the air port, plus the diesel hauled road and rail traffic associated with them.

The cities road network is a mess that grew out organically following the path of least resistance from the Castle to the various hamlets and villages that now form the city. The City installed an 'integrated' traffic light control system in the 1970's which has grown and should a traffic incident occur on the M27 around the city is set into 'go even slower' mode, which add's to the time vehicles are sat running at their least efficient and dirtiest, and nothing can flow any faster than the slowest diesel bus as you cannot pass the bus when it's at a stop due to the built out stops, even if the roads are quiet. Thus more pollution than the wind can carry away.

Joined up thinking, in which removing older diesel vehicles would play a part, cleaning up industrial activities, enforcing shore-side power use, investing in clean public transport and getting rid of artificial delays would all have a positive effect, but the political will is lacking, as is funding, so hitting the private motorist, as favoured by the 'green' lobby is an easy 'look we're doing something' solution.

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#43

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/22/2017 5:33 PM

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

Everybody knows that smoking isn't good for you!

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/22/2017 7:54 PM

And isn't living just a death sentence!

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Jock-a-mo fee-no ai na-né, jock-a-mo fee na-né

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#48

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/24/2017 5:18 AM

https://www.pollutionsolutions-online.com/news/air-clean-up/16/breaking-news/how-does-londonrsquos-underground-pollution-compare-to-its-traffic/41752?utm_source=ps&utm_medium=ebulletin&utm_term=air-clean-up&utm_content=February&utm_campaign=breaking-news

And more Southampton specific

https://www.pollutionsolutions-online.com/news/air-clean-up/16/breaking-news/should-we-be-more-concerned-about-cruise-ships/41716

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jan/08/ports-pollution-cruising-ships-freight-sea

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#49
In reply to #48

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/24/2017 11:40 AM

Okay, time to learn to use the link function in your comments....

Above where you type text for a new comment, a row or rows of symbols for the various editor functions can be seen.

The fifth symbol counting from the right ( after the B I U S and a faint vertical line) that looks like a diagonally tilted figure 8 with an additional like connecting the centers of the two circular portions of the 8....or like a chain of three links; provides access to the link function.

Select that button when you want to put links to other pages in your comment.

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/24/2017 11:52 AM

Agreed, except that it is counting from the left.

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: Death of Diesel Vehicles

02/24/2017 11:58 AM

Oops. Serves me right for assuming a pedantic tone.

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