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Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

03/15/2017 11:23 PM

This is Mount Angel Abbey. We are constructing a brewery at our Abbey and need to provide 1500 gpm at 20 psi (residual) for a fire hydrant or 400gpm at 50 psi for a sprinkler system that doesn't require a pump. All other options are over 100k, which will kill the project. We have several sources of water, all of which have various elevations relative to the brewery. How do we achieve the above? The brewery is at an elevation of 262 feet. Here are the water sources: Tower 1 (one million gallons, elevation 308, 4 inch line; Tower 2 (300,000 gallons, elevation 308, 8 inch line); tower 3 (10,000 gallons, elevation 413 feet). We can connect all of the water sources, if necessary. We can get the 1500+ gpm from one or multiple sources, but we need a minimum of residual 20 psi at the same time. Is there a way to get 20+ psi without using a pump and by using tower 3 to supplement psi?

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#1

Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 12:04 AM

(308-262)/2.31 ≈ 19.9 psi static head; thus, strictly speaking, neither tower 1 nor 2 will be usable. If some fudging can be allowed, tower 2 might be able to deliver say 1650 gpm at 18 psi (accounting for pressure loss during flow).

(413-262)/2.31 ≈ 65.3 psi. Pipe size wasn't given, but here you only need 400 gpm, and you have 15.3 psi surplus to work with. On a quick estimate, a 4" pipe could handle this (depending on how long it is), 5" almost for sure.

Out of curiosity, what is wrong about having pump(s)?

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#3
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 1:11 AM

Thank you for your reply! Pipe size for tower 3 is 4 inches. The length is about 20% longer than the elevation. The psi from tower 3 is well above what we need, but it doesn't provide the gpm (maybe 250ish gpm). We need a combined (or aggregate) 1500 gpm and 20 psi. Is it possible that the psi from tower 3 could combine with one of the other towers to push and maintain psi over 20? Obviously I'm not taking friction into consideration, yet.

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#8
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 2:04 AM

How hard would it be to increase the pipe size? Have you actually measured the gpm from the current configuration?

I thought that at 50 psi, you need only 400 gpm. Do you also need 1500 gpm at 20 psi?

Also, how long do these flows need to be maintained?

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#10
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 6:06 AM

Your last question also occurred to me. Related point (for the OP) - do the tanks automatically fill when level falls? and at what rate?

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#11
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 6:13 AM

Good point. Were tower 3 to fill at 1500gpm, it could supply the required flowrate indefinitely. GA

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#12
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 6:31 AM

Thanks for the GA. That was my point, and even if it fills at < 1500gpm it might meet the time limit (if we knew what that was).

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#16
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 9:43 AM

Good points. Tower 3 only has a 4 inch line and only fills refills at 200 gpm.

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#14
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 9:35 AM

Yes, the tanks fill automatically at a rate of about 200 gpm.

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#17
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 10:10 AM

You mention a higher pressure requirement for the sprinkler system than for the fire suppression system. I don't think you will be able to achieve the 50 psig for the spinkler system at 400 gpm, and then it all depends on the required duration of flow, being mindful of the small reservoir on tower 3, although that might be possible to increase with the least cost?

Consider having an eductor sales representative scope out a suitably sized eductor to arrive at a final flow of either 400 gpm at 50 psig (you will need to up size the delivery pipe to accommodate the maximum flow at required pressure), probably a six inch final pipe size. Any eductor used will have an associated pressure drop on the driving source water, so you must be mindful that you can only have a total of about 12-14 psi drop at the outlet of your system relative to tower 3.

1500 gpm at 20 psig, might even require an 8" pipe to reduce pressure losses at the final outlet. If you pulled all 400 gpm for irrigation from tower 3, your draw time would only be 25 minutes, then you would have to recharge tower 3. If tower 3 is continually recharged and overflows to the lower towers, then you have more options beyond the scope of what I propose.

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#19
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 11:01 AM

If your situation is either/or (1500 gpm 20 psi versus 400 gpm 50 psi), you might be able to follow James's eductor suggestion, using tower 3 to provide motive fluid to boost the pressure from the lower towers.

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#21
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 11:08 AM

Thank you for the vote in confidence. I am pretty sure a competent eductor sales representative in your area can answer all queries, set up the parameters, help you spec and acquire the item, and maybe even assist with the installation, if they are worthy of beer, or salt.

Beer is proof positive that God loves us all, and desires for our happiness. (Ben Franklin to be lauded for that observation).

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#2

Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 1:05 AM
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#4
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 1:28 AM

Hi Solar. Why would you say something like that without asking for details? Mount Angel Abbey is at higher elevation than the city of Mount Angel. Look at the elevation at Humpert Lane, then look at the elevation at the top of the hill at the Abbey. Our Hilltop is 485 feet. Humpert Lane is about 250. The original Traeger Grill company rented our property at 300 Humpert Lane. Please don't post stuff like that. We're looking for help.

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#5
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 1:39 AM

OK, sorry if this is not the case....but am I correct that the Brewery is already built and operating? ....and if this is so, why are you only now considering fire suppression? I have been reading the history of this Abbey and find this hard to believe...

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#6
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 1:52 AM

No, the brewery isn't built. This is a brand new building we are planning and nearly ready to submit for permits, and fire suppression has changed from something simple to something complicated. The size and type of our building (3000 sf, F2 occupancy) doesn't require an automatic sprinkler system, but the city doesn't have hydrants with the proper flow (gpm) or pressure. So we're trying to find a creative, substantive solution.

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#7
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 1:59 AM
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#13
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 7:15 AM

From the OP: "Is there a way to get 20+ psi without using a pump ..."

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#15
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 9:37 AM

Pumps are very expensive.

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#23
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 11:19 AM

So is not having a pump, if the facility were not approved for construction without one!

The forum is not in a position to evaluate the economics of pump vs. no pump, as these are commercially-sensitive considerations.

How did the discussions recommended in #9⇓ go, please?

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#25
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/17/2017 1:07 AM

Have you considered a second hand/refurbished pump?
Have you tried local suppliers to give you a long line of credit, maybe a free one (in exchange for beer??)

I suspect, (and I'm trying not to rain on your parade) that you might have to install one, local codes etc.

So as a back up plan/option B, you should consider it. Better to be forearmed than having to go away to regroup and delay the project.

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#9

Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 5:38 AM

The reason for adding-in a fire suppression system into a new facility is of interest, particularly as the liquids contained within it are non-flammable in themselves. The reason for not currently having fire suppression systems in the existing facility that could be adapted and extended is also of interest, which arrangement is presumably currently satisfactory to both the local authority and the facility's fire insurers, otherwise the facility would not be operating at the moment.

Tower 3 can supply 400gpm for 25min or 1500gpm for 61/3min at the required pressures without a pump, however the 1500gpm requires trained local staff to connect and distribute the water in such an emergency. One wonders if the connection time and distribution time together is enough to arrange the arrival of the local Fire Brigade with their mobile pumping systems to boost towers 1 and 2 into service.

In the end it is a detailed discussion with:

  • The facility's Fire Insurance Adviser
  • The local Brigade's Fire Prevention Manager
  • The local authority's Planning Officer

to determine the correct course of action, rather than a bunch of strangers on the 'net.

The other local fire suppression resources to be considered are:

  • The volume of material contained in the facility's own Effluent Treatment Plant
  • The brewed materials themselves.
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#18
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 10:15 AM

You forgot to account for the continuous 200 gpm recharge supply to tower 3. I say use the tower 3 pressure to drive an eductor or set of eductors to arrive at the solution. It can be done. In fact, it could probably be done with steam even easier, surely they have steam in a brewery?

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#20
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 11:08 AM

The information on tank recharge rates arrived in the thread after the above reply had been posted.

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#22
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 11:17 AM

yes it did. good catch.

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#24
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Re: Monks brewing in Oregon - Need fire suppression help

03/16/2017 11:51 AM

Anything but the beer!

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#26

Re: Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

03/17/2017 11:01 AM

Sorry if I missed it, but how long will you be supplying fire suppression water and what is the total volume of water you plan to supply?

Also, is the water pressure intended to supply positive suction head to a pumper fire truck, or are you directly applying the water to the fire at the supplied pressure?

Are there certain areas where the water will be applied, such as warehouse racking with stacked pallets, fuel, or marijuana dispensary storage? I am sure there are some areas with greater innate hazard and some that pose essentially zero risk.

Other options could include gravity fed low pressure shower heads in high risk areas fed from a roof tank to purchasing 2 or 3 portable shipboard fire pumps or portable forest service fire pumps and train a resident crew to use them.

Finally, take a beer keg. Fill it 2/3 full of water, pressurize to 120psi and put a sprinkler head on it with a fusible link. Place or hang them around the high risk areas and let them be your first line responder.

I live in the area and have visited the abbey in years past. I look forward to trying your brew at Oktoberfest. You know what they say, the monks make brew to support their habits.

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#27
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Re: Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

03/17/2017 11:09 AM

Well, those habits must be supported in all decency!

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#28

Re: Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

03/17/2017 11:39 AM

I'm curious as to who is driving the minimum residual fire flow pressure and fire flow rate? Is it the insurance underwriter, NFPA, the city, or the state building code(s)? In many cases, it could be several or all of the aforementioned entities.

Without knowing all the existing layouts and other data concerning the water storage tanks (city owned?) and their respective discharge mains, I would suggest that you hire a Registered Professional Engineer (Civil Engineer) who is competent in conducting data gathering, fire flow testing, and hydraulic computer modeling in order to arrive at the best economical compromise on improvements that need to be made. In many cases, if the existing water system improvements are wholly owned by the municipality the City Engineer's Office may conduct such Work. But I must warn you that they may charge a fee to do so. It may be well worth investigating this possibility as a cost saving measure in terms of engineering expenses.

It may be possible to tie-in several of the tank discharge mains to achieve the minimum requirements, and/or construct a new larger main from the highest water storage tank/reservoir. There's also the possibility of constructing a new booster pump station at the base of one of the tanks to push the water through a discharge main (or mains) so that it acts like a force main, in order to provide the minimum pressure and flow requirements. Who would be responsible for it's O&M costs would have to be determined by the municipality having jurisdiction......ie, politics have to be considered. The construction of this pump station could be fully or partially funded by the city. Frankly, there's a lot of "what ifs" scenarios that must be considered/evaluated. I would get into those aspects here, as it would be a fairly lengthy ordeal. The P.E. can discuss these with you in person during a meeting.

I've done literally several hundred of such evaluations during my career for municipal and private clients (as well as being a former City Engineer), so trying to determine the best avenue of approach over the Internet (and this forum) is not an easy task. It's nearly impossible, given all the factors involved. It's also a path full of perils if opinions and advice are followed in this manner, and a waste of your money.

Signed,

Captmoosie, P.E.

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#29

Re: Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

03/17/2017 3:44 PM

What type of flammable materials are we talking about here? Roof? Walls? Just asking, as water is not the end all for all flammable situations(Think Electrical fires, chemical , some plastics etc.).. Large ships have various suppression systems, some hi pressure water, others, Chemical types. Just curious.

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#30
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Re: Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

03/17/2017 4:00 PM

Mostly at a beer brewery, there will be fire danger from stored grain and hops. The only electrical fire danger might be from boiler controls?

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#31
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Re: Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

03/17/2017 4:59 PM

Maybe like spontaneous combustion from graineries in the Midwest and elsewhere?. I thought that wasn't from the grain itself, but from the chafe., fine grain dust etc, combusted by friction, causing static electricity build up? Can't remember ..

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#34
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Re: Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

03/20/2017 10:48 AM

Alex Trebec says we can't give you the points, since you didn't phrase your answer as a question, but there again this is not your father's Jeopardy show.

Good Answer!!! There are several ways to suppress brewery dust.

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#32

Re: Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

03/18/2017 1:04 PM

In lieu of the potentially uneconomical water fire suppression avenues that could be constructed (ie, hydrants and/or sprinklers), has anyone even considered the installation of Inert gas, foam, or water mist fire suppression technologies?

The floor plan footprint of 3,000 S.F. is small, but to be honest we don't know what the proposed construction materials are being planned (and hence, the "fire load").

Typically, using fire hydrants usually involves providing water fire flow for no less than 2 hours, but keep in mind that the flow duration which is determined is based on the fire load of the building and could even be longer.

I believe that the Abbey should consult with their Architect and Mechanical Engineer regarding this matter, if they have those design professionals.

Just a thought peeps...

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#33
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Re: Monks Brewing in Oregon - Need Fire Suppression Help

03/19/2017 3:20 PM

Agree--I have seen many building exploded by high pressure hoses and fire axes, to the point where the owners have just said that it wasn't worth the effort to save. Only worries are the spread of fire to nearby buildings.

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