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Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/17/2017 11:41 AM

My wife told me ; "I don't drink enough water". That prompts me to ask the question; when I brew a cup of coffee, am I creating a new compound or is it just coffee flavored water? The same goes for beer and other soft drinks; are they water disguised as beer or a soft drink or coffee? I maintain that I do drink enough water even when disguised as something else.

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#89
In reply to #62
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/19/2017 8:07 AM

I suggest you find another wellness coach. It is impossible to determine your water intake from your BMI reading

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#92
In reply to #89

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/19/2017 10:07 AM

Maybe it's another reading but they do measurements on you and give you a computer printout and one of them is your hydration level.

Yes, BMI does play a factor in your hydration level.

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#97
In reply to #92

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/19/2017 1:05 PM

Snake oil. BMI is calculated as weight(kg)/height(m)2, so yes, if you lose a percentage of weight through dehydration the BMI will drop the same percentage. The problem is that if you lose as little as 5% of your body water you are clinically dehydrated, yet this represents a change in total body weight of around 3%, while the normal range of BMI varies about 10% around the mean. The only way you will get a result from the BMI is to go to the snake oil merchant twice and have them weigh you twice, once when you are properly hydrated and once when you are dry. You could achieve the same result on your own bathroom scales with less effort and expense.

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#118
In reply to #92

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 12:00 AM

BMI has nothing to do with hydration....

https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educational/lose_wt/BMI/bmicalc.htm

...and I might add it's not accurate for everybody....If you are muscular build it says you are fat....It only takes into account your weight relationship to your height, not body type....

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#119
In reply to #118

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 7:23 AM

It interesting, at my Gym, (Anytime Fitness) They have a little hand held gadget where there's a metal plate you have where you grab unto.

To use it, you enter your age, height, sex and weight. and grab the handles and it gives you your BMI and fat%.

I always felt that it calculates your fat percentage by running a small current and reading the resistance and incorporating that to calculate your BMI is also could be pulled from the data chart and incorporates the resistance.

I also felt it was a little science mix in with a little carnival 'guess your weight' scheme.

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#121
In reply to #118

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 10:10 AM

They narrow it down a little more than that, they measure your neck and arm diameter along with your weight and height so they can determine your body fat percentage. My point wasn't about BMI. BMI is just one of the factors taken in by a wellness counselor. They take several measurements and one of them is your hydration levels. They actually measure your hydration level electronically by having you stand on two metal plates with your bare feet.

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#122
In reply to #121

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 10:42 AM

If you spend your life, your energy, and your fortune learning about your health, what will you know when you die?

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#123
In reply to #122

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 10:46 AM

To quote the late Redd Foxx:

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#124
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 10:52 AM

Amen, bro, amen. I miss Redd and his intrinsic wisdom.

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#125
In reply to #122

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 11:23 AM

I'm not a health nut. The subject is some guy told that he's not drinking enough water. I just made a suggestion so he can find out if he's hydrated enough.

ADMIN: Remainder of Post Deleted

Abuse/Attack: This post was deleted because it was an attack on another user. Please review the Site FAQ and the Rules of Conduct.

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#126
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 11:29 AM

Listen Kitty, if you would just quit rolling around on the carpet like that, no one would call you on the carpet, and no knit-picking or lint-picking from your navy would be needed.

Hey I am just kidding, good kitty, please don't scratch me, I hate when you do that. Love bites are OK, as long as you don't dig your teefers in.

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#127
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 2:26 PM

Come on, now. Do a bit of science. Explain how a reading from two metal plates on your feet on a single occasion can give you a reliable indication of anything. Is the conductivity perhaps improved by standing in a bucket of snake oil first?

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#128
In reply to #127

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 2:37 PM

Water conducts electricity, does it not? Do you think that the amount of water in your system can affect the resistance your body has with electricity. Just hold the leads of a VOM in your fingers and you can measure your body resistance.

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#129
In reply to #127

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 2:39 PM

Really. You think the only thing one can measure from one plate to another is conductivity. Your ignorance and arrogance is showing here. I admit this sounds like another in a long line of biometrology chicanery (snake oil) but I wouldn't dismiss this technology based on an inaccurate description of a layman.

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#131
In reply to #129

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 2:44 PM

I like your answer... but I may be bias...

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#132
In reply to #129

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 2:48 PM

https://www.precisionhydration.com/blogs/hydration_advice/116318276-how-to-tell-if-you-re-dehydrated

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#134
In reply to #132

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 3:22 PM

Indeed. In the section on

How to measure your hydration status

there is not a single mention of metal plates on the feet.

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#133
In reply to #129

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 3:13 PM

As it happens, physiological measurement was an essential component of my professional existence, so I can tell you a thing or two about what can and cannot be measured. Yes, there are other measurements that can be made from two plates on legs, an ECG channel being one example. However, since you accuse me of both ignorance and arrogance, I humbly submit to your superior intellect. Pray tell me how one measures a state of hydration from the said two plates.

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#135
In reply to #133

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 3:40 PM

I didn't accuse you of that. You made fun of me for bringing up the wrong measurement.

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#140
In reply to #135

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 4:05 PM

My apologies, but I was not responding to you at that point. It was Sir Redfred who opined my ignorance and arrogance.

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#141
In reply to #140

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 4:13 PM

Ok.

Let's just say this: When in doubt have a drink of water.

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#145
In reply to #141

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 4:27 AM

Now that I cannot disagree with. Equally I cannot disagree with those who wish to flavour that water with some tastebud tingle.

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#137
In reply to #133

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 3:48 PM

Here you go.

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#139
In reply to #137

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 3:50 PM

No, No, No,.. you didn't answer the old man by the bridge's (3) questions... you must turn back....

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#130
In reply to #127

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 2:40 PM

Only after imbibing pure horse lineament. Dr. Carter's Horse Lineament, guaranteed to line you out, removes all worms, yeast, and other parasites, horrubites, and jebbusites.

Side effects: unprovoked whinnying, stomping, and cribbing on fence rails.

Supply: unlimited until it runs out.

Source: Dr. Carter's Horse Around Laboratories, and general mixing trough.

I too may be biased. Too much horseradish last night.

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#136
In reply to #127

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 3:44 PM

Come on phph001, do a bit of basic searching prior to castigating someone for mentioning something that seems implausible to you.

A cornucopia of sophisticated mechanisms ofren functioning in unintuitive ways have been conjured and teams of people every bit as smart as you (yet with the advantage of working directly in their specialty) all over the world continue to develop me mechanisms.

Funny thing, giving into the idea of being clever can potentiate very unclever decisions.

Electrical impedance, when used alone, accuracy may leave something to be desired, but it can be a reliable investigation of water content and fat content.

....and a quick search could have spared the display of arrogant condescension.

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#138
In reply to #136

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 3:49 PM

I find it amusing that instead he'll give you directions to a library... for you to search for yourself his stance on the subject...

Head North by Northwest... there you'll come to an old man standing by a bridge... where he will ask you (3) questions that you must answer correctly before he lets you pass.

After which you must....

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#142
In reply to #136

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 4:23 PM

Electrical impedance, when used alone, accuracy may leave something to be desired, but it can be a reliable investigation of water content and fat content.

No, it can't. It cannot separate the components of muscle, fat and free water. It like trying to solve 3-variable simultaneous equations when all you've got is one equation. You cannot make assumptions about the relative proportions of those components, because they vary with gender, age, race and etc etc. Obviously if you make two measurements on the same person within a short period of time the only meaningful change would be in the water, but you can do that on the bathroom scales.

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#143
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/20/2017 9:12 PM

Sorry but your underwear is showing again. Google Scholar produces 1.13 million scholarly papers on body impedance analysis in just 0.1 seconds. Back in 1986 this article discusses a study titled:

Estimation of total body water by bioelectrical impedance analysis.

Remember that this is an impedance analysis at multiple frequencies not a DC static conduction analysis. This will generate many linear and non-linear equations. Oh, you should also grasp that while conduction and conductivity are related DC attributes they are still different attributes.

Now don't forget that I also pointed out that your objection hinged on a layman's observation and your own preconceived ignorance and biases.

As for how I can possibly teach you how water content can be electrically tested with out electrocuting a subject, I can only present the scholarly articles for you to read. I cannot force you to read or think. Those who relish ignorance remain in the dark.

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#146
In reply to #143

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 5:17 AM

Thank you. Unlike you, I read beyond the titles. From your Google Scholar collection the very first article into which I dip includes "The objective physical reading of impedance cannot be interpreted without further statistical manipulation". I learn further that your assertion that multiple frequencies are used is not necessarily true. In this account the single frequency of 50kHz is used. Even more interestingly the reviewers analyse the algorithms of the machines employed:

"How well do the manufactures algorithms describe body composition?

The machine-calculated values were also available for all but eight mothers. The sample mean of the Tanita LM values was lower than our calculated values (mean (SD) difference −1.19 (3.33) kg, 95% CI −1.49 to

Figure 1 Bland-Altman plots for (A) lean mass (LM), (B) fat mass (FM) and (C) percentage fat (% fat) comparing our own calculated values to the machine output values (Tanita).

−0.90) while they were higher for FM and %fat (1.19 (3.33) kg, 95% CI 0.90 to 1.49 and 1.97 (4.86) %, 95% CI 1.54% to 2.40%, respectively). The two sets of results were compared using the Bland-Altman method,18 and major discrepancies were found between the two methods. "

I'm sorry, but you are going to have to modify your attitudes. You accuse me of ignorance and arrogance. Yes, I will firmly present my point of view, but up to now I have not chosen to get personal. I will now. You are a bully, a species I detest even more than I detest trolls, who at least are polite with their trolling. The fact that I know a great deal more about physics than you ever will about biology may disconcert you but it is a fact.

We could of course come to an agreement. I will stop telling you how to build power stations if you stop telling me how the body functions.

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#147
In reply to #146

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 7:18 AM

"....

The fact that I know a great deal more about physics than you ever will about biology may disconcert you but it is a fact.

We could of course come to an agreement. I will stop telling you how to build power stations if you stop telling me how the body functions...."

.

What is the medical terminology for 'what you wrote was sufficiently repulsive that upob reading it, it induced me to throw up a little in my mouth?

That self-sycophantic part about 'facts' of compared intelligences followed immediately by an attempt to bargain for some mutual pseudo respect ...not based on merits, but instead on trade skills.

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#151
In reply to #147

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 11:04 AM

I have the idea for a wonderful experiment:

1. Read my note again and have a good puke. When you have finished (remember to have a really good puke) go down to the gym and get your state of hydration. measured. Note the figure.

2. Drink 500 ml.

3. Measure your hydration status again. Note the figure again.

4. Repeat 2-3 until you feel comfortably full.

5. You will have some figures to analyse, but this is a biological experiment and there is naturally a degree of variability. Furthermore, you are in effect calibrating the machine, so you need a few more data points, so

6. Repeat 1-4 for 3-4 more days.

7. Because this is a biological experiment there will be inter-subject variability, so gather another 9 volunteers and repeat 1-6.

8. Please share your data and analysis with us.

That is the end of the sarcastic bit.

Now for some real-time information. I rang the consultant who replaced me in my old intensive care unit, which was one of the better ones in the UK (and, on your reckoning, can only have got better since I left) to ask him how to measure total body water. He told me that they still do not have a machine in the ICU for this purpose, as none of them work. There is a new machine on the market which uses a dye dilution technique with injected fluorescein dyes, but that also has yet to be proven in humans. I told him about standing on metal plates and he just laughed.

In short, the opinion I have given you is not only my personal opinion based on long experience but also that of a respectable circle of experienced clinicians. I would now like an apology for the totally unnecessary abuse that some of you see fit to hurl.

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#152
In reply to #151

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 11:24 AM

As TR used to say, "BULLY!" I didn't think it would work either, but DOG Almightly! Injecting Fluorescein dye intravenously? How poison is that crap?

Almost as bad as the mercury laced preservatives for immunization vaccines that have been proven to result in 30X the child mortality rate within a year, compared to the control group that received no vaccine?

Who are we SH***ing here?

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#153
In reply to #151

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 11:41 AM

The most reliable way to check for dehydration is Urinalysis. But hey... I don't claim to be an expert.

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#154
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 12:05 PM

The point of no urine, is a really strong indicator, the test subject needs hydration, that and flat line BP, and maybe a strong odor of death.

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#155
In reply to #154

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 12:19 PM

Well, before the point of no urine... the first clue was when it was coming out like tooth paste... but hey... that could be something else.

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#156
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 12:37 PM

quite another condition would be apparent. Mercury treatment, anyone?

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#160
In reply to #151

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 8:19 PM

Your opinion, plus the same opinion brought also by you, but attributed via hearsay to an 'expert' (based on your claim that the person should be considered an authority), would only make a circle (the smallest circle) if the other opinion didn't count, or was counted at the same point as your single point.

See, if we allow another point somewhere else, then you've just got a line... no area to encompass the implied group.

Now, this 'consultant' who replaced you.... what is/was a consultant doing staffing part of an ICU shift? Seeing as he replaced you, were you also a consultant? What types of things would you consult on?

The following is an interesting sentence you wrote:

".... He told me that they still do not have a machine in the ICU for this purpose, as none of them work..."

.

While that ICU not possessing equipment of this sort, says nothing about whether such equipment exists, the assertion that none of the ICUs equipment of this sort works does indeed say something about the existence of such equipment. While the current functional or nonfunctional state is not relevant to the argument, claiming that none of the ICU's equipment of this type works says equipment of this type, built for this purpose exists.

.

You have flourished your attempted reference via hearsay with enough details to validate the very point you oppose.

.

That last sentence was a goldmine. Let's have a look at another you wrote:

"...There is a new machine on the market which uses a dye dilution technique with injected fluorescein dyes, but that also has yet to be proven in humans ..."

.

Excellent! Excellent! By all means,continue the revelation (just know, these sentences reveal far more about you than the literal subject).

A new machine on the market, huh? So much has been expended on design prototyping marketing, approval for use of a medical device, right? Of course! But those silly folks still haven't established efficacy in humans? And they have the device on the market? Oh those zany people inhabiting imagination land! What will they think up next?

You'll need to try something new and be less stingy with that honesty you've been hoarding. If you achieve that, you may realize what you saw as abuse is actually constructive criticism. What you labeled as unnecessary would have been callously crawl to leave unsaid. That for which you requests apologies may become that for which you are grateful and show appreciation.

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#149
In reply to #146

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 9:10 AM

I have to modify my attitudes. You incorrectly assumed the wrong measurement was being performed when you were bullying Janissaries. In typical bullying fashion you boast and brag about your superior knowledge without presenting a single shred of verifiable supporting evidence. I back up my claims with facts. You are the bully here.

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#150
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 9:38 AM

It sort of reminds me of when I feed the doves every evening. They birds all begin to show up and almost all of them wish to eat. There are also a few "bully" birds, larger male doves of the alpha designation, whom are always "hopping mad" at the other birds for being within their line of vision. They put their heads down, and charge at the others hopping and "barking their call" at them.

I am sure Dog looks down upon us all in a similar way.

Let the man (or woman) in here who is innocent of oversimplification, castigate the first stone, shall we say? That the end of my miserable comment, over.

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#157
In reply to #149

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 3:15 PM

Indeed, bully-boy, you have to modify your attitudes. Interesting, isn't it, that you bring up the necessity for my presenting "verifiable supporting evidence" of my superior knowledge. For students of psychology, it is a classic behaviour pattern for bullies to make this request. It implies that the bully is somehow qualified and authorised to assess the competence of his victim, so that the victim can thereby be further demeaned. Well, of course this works both ways. I have no evidence that you are competent to assess my medical qualifications, so there is absolutely no point in providing them. Not only that, but I myself actually have no evidence that you are even a licensed engineer. Certainly all I know is that what you know about medicine you gleaned from the popular science magazines. For all I know, the only qualification you may have as an engineer is that you once worked on an engine. It is up to you to prove otherwise.

As for apologising, I, unlike you, have already had the good manners to do so (see post #140.)

I will summarise. This side-arm of the hydration discussion began with the suggestion that the machine at the gym can read your hydration status from metal plates on which you stand. My opinion, and, more importantly, the opinion of my colleagues who are still in clinical practice, is that that is complete nonsense. I'm afraid that you are just going to have to accept that, however unpalatable it is. Accurate body water measurement simply does not lie in your area of competence.

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#158
In reply to #157

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 3:56 PM

This side-arm.... began with the suggestion that the machine at the gym....

If your talking about my post, you're proving you're not very good at reading comprehension on this thread. And the problems are not with others, but are within you.

And if it wasn't from my post, but another you also have to realize that this is an engineering site. These discussions can be akin to a brainstorming sessions.

Analytic and analyzing summaries,... comes later.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that the word anal is in analytic and analyzing

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#159
In reply to #158

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 4:34 PM

Sorry to interrupt your train of logic, but the side-arm to which I refer began at post #62, which considerably preceded yours, so your "reading comprehension" insult is misplaced.

It is the consensus of intensive care medicine that measurements made through surface electrodes are of no use in the estimation of body water. That consensus is not altered when I report on it to an engineering forum.

I could do with an apology from you too.

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#161
In reply to #159

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 8:58 PM

Again I explained in my post but your repeated lack of comprehension fails the discussion your trying to have.

which then actually insult is, is to have a person like myself to point it out.

The only thing I can say annoying as it can be, is to keep trying.

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#162
In reply to #159

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 9:59 PM

Would you please provide a link to reasonable support for your following assertion?

'...It is the consensus of intensive care medicine that measurements made through surface electrodes are of no use in the estimation of body water. ...'

.

I hope you are just baiting us by issuing a claim speaking definitively for so many people. I hope you have that reference showing something that backs up your claim that most individuals in intensive care medicine not only have pondered the question, but also have come to the same conclusion of impossibility.

If you did not intentionally bait the claim and. don't have a surprise reference waiting in the wings, then there is a long, long way to go. If you don't understand it is wrong to make definitive claims about what others believe without actual knowledge to that effect, resolution of the problem is likely to be tedious and time consuming.

.

I don't want to be completely negative about your ability to comment so here is a suggestion for using you particular affliction in a positive way. You know those apologies you believe you are owed? Instead of developing a feeling of being depraved of those apologies , try this; just tell yourself that everyone has already apologized to you.. You might also see if stating to yourself that Engineers worldwide have come to the concensus that you are always right.

That probably makes it less stingey already, right?

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#163
In reply to #162

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 4:32 AM

Indeed. I will present my statement in a more emphatic form.

No UK intensive care unit attempts to measure body water with a machine which employs surface electrodes. Why? Because it is the consensus of practising intensive care physicians that they do not work.

There. Is that clear enough for you? If you are happy with that, and indeed if you are not happy with that, you can come up with a resource of your own. I hope you are aware that in the USA such devices must be registered with the FDA. Find me one such registered device. Better still, find me a hospital that uses one, and give me the name of the physician who uses it.

Good luck.

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#164
In reply to #163

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 4:43 AM
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#165
In reply to #164

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 4:52 AM

Thank you. That is a most useful contribution.

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#166
In reply to #163

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 6:55 AM

No one is asking you to state your claims more emphatically. You have consistently misunderstood the problem.

What is being requested is that when you make claims stating something is absolutely factual, that you provide some reasonable reference supporting your claim.

Here are some things that are not reasonable references:

-Making the same claim more emphatically.

-Asserting that you are an authority/expert.

- Hearsay; claiming an authority/exper told you.

-Asserting with no example that some organization (additionally claimed aa an authority/expert) operates in a way that suggests agreemebt with your assertion.

- ad hominem attacks.

- allusions to or outright claims of you possessing superior intellect or skills of a spefic sport.

-claims that others have laughed at the opposing view.

- alerting everyone that you fewl slighted by those disagreeing with you by regularly stating the apologies various people owe you.

-utterly failing to respond to numerous on topic piints which devastate your argument.

.

Realize that the more extraordinary the claim, the more likely you will be pressed for substantiation. Over all, the greater the concern over veracity, the more likely support will be requested.

That last part also means that now that you have done such a poor job respondong to criticism of your claims, pretty much everything you say, at least till you develop a better track record is suspect.

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#167
In reply to #166

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 7:15 AM

Dear troll,

yes, I understand troll behaviours too. (They are marginally better habits than those of bullies.) Now hear this: I have spoken to my former colleague in intensive care, and he confirmed what I already knew, that no ICU in the UK uses a machine with surface electrodes to measure body water. I'm afraid that the end of my feeding the trolls. It is of course up to you to suggest a) that I am a liar and that the UK hospitals are full of such machines or b) that the UK is benighted territory and that the US hospitals are full of such machines. Good luck with your quest.

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#170
In reply to #168

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 2:07 PM

Thank you. The take home message is that, even though we are not already there, we still have some promising prospects.

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#171
In reply to #170

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 2:23 PM

From what I take on what I researched is that some are already being used, the ones that work are not common place yet but they are out there.

Yes, there are smoke and mirrors, snake oil, if you will, BIA devices out there, but there are also legitimate BIA devices out there that seem to work.

I guess my point is, I did some research, I see both sides of the argument, but BIA can be and is a legitimate tool to detect hydration levels, the stupid bantering back and forth, with assertions of superior intellect and knowledge is ridiculous.

Just my humble opinion.....

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#172
In reply to #171

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 2:33 PM

And I am very respectful of your research-based opinion.

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#174
In reply to #172

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 3:04 PM

I appreciate that. Thank you.

I understand that you are a retired physician, right?

Technology is advancing everyday. Imagine being a physician during the American Civil War, doing it for 5 years, getting ready to amputate a leg do to infection and somebody comes to you with an injection of penicillin, and tells you they can save the leg. You would think they are nuts.

Yes the other 3 combatants in this argument were aggressive, but I think their point is that this technology is out there, you were to the opinion that it was not.

I am not a DR. by any means, I do not claim to know how the body works more then you do, I am a process engineer, but I can do research, and my research says this technology is out there.

You have not belittled me and I have not belittled you, but in this thread you have asserted your superior intellect and knowledge to others, to somebody like me who was just sitting back and watching makes it seem like you are pompous and arrogant. I am not saying that is what you are, but that is the appearance you show.

I am just saying, have an open mind, maybe the other guys have read what I did, hydration analysis is possible and accurate with BIA devices.

Peace!

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#179
In reply to #174

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/23/2017 9:16 AM

Thank you for your measured response. I think we can agree that the technology is out there; the remaining question is whether it can deliver what it claims to deliver. Now as to the question of competence. I am a retired physician. Yes, but more to the point I am a retired physician with a specialty interest in anaesthesia and intensive care. Now it may surprise you, because we are not generally self-advertising types, but anaesthetists rely on machinery to keep their patients alive, and it is therefore incumbent on them to have an understanding of their machinery. My diploma exam required me to have a substantial knowledge not only of pharmacology but also of physics. In my oral exam I was actually asked: "What should the relationship be between the output impedance of one circuit and the input impedance of another circuit in order to ensure the maximum transfer of power between the two?" I think you will appreciate that what for you may be unknown unknowns may for me be at least known unknowns, and some of them may even be known knowns.

It is for that reason that I can confidently venture into your territory. I know you can build a multiple-frequency generator. I know you can measure impedance. FWIW I know you can represent resistance, capacitance and inductance separately if you wish. The issue then is whether you can model body water distributions in a manner agreeable to analysis from multifrequency electrical stimulation. I say you cannot do it without making numerous assumptions, which then get built into the machine algorithms.

All the literature which has been presented so far has been in the form "We have tested the AAA machine for xx months on yy patients suffering from ZZZ disease. The machine got it right for ppp% of the patients". What we are looking for is "We have used the Genius machine for 1 year in our mixed intensive care unit caring for neurosurgery, liver failure, renal failure and general trauma. When tested against the gold standard of deuterium dilution it gave a reliable indication 98% of the time. We are confident of using the results in making clinical decisions". As you now see, we are a long way from a usable machine.

I have given you my opinion, which is fully backed up by my erstwhile clinical colleagues. Now to test your understanding as engineers of the human body. Without looking up on the internet, please let me know the answers to "What is the effect of hypernatraemia on body water distribution? How do you expect this to affect surface impedance measurements?" If your machine is to be worth more than sniffing at, it should be programmed to give an accurate answer to hundreds of similar questions

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#180
In reply to #179

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/23/2017 10:21 AM

I never questioned your competence, I believe you are who you say you are and have the knowledge you say you do.

I do question how to portray yourself to others, I don't care how intelligent someone is, when they assert their intelligence is superior to others, it shows blatant arrogance, and doesn't sit well with many. I don't know anything about you other than what I have read on this thread, but it appeared to me, that was exactly what you were doing.

Granted, I could be having this same conversation with someone else but you are the one who responded.

So again, I did not question your competence nor do I assert that I know more about the human body than you do (very little compared to you, I'm sure). I also don't think you are venturing in to "our territory". Being a Dr. puts you here, isn't a Dr. an engineer for the human body?

As for your question on hypernatraemia, yes, I looked it up, I am not a Dr. The higher sodium levels would absolutely skew the results of an impedance test. How common is hypernatraemia? .3 to 1%?

As a Dr., answer this, if a patient has hypernatraemia, generally how soon is it diagnosed?

If the patient is known to have the condition then the BIA can be programmed for it.

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#184
In reply to #180

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/24/2017 1:02 PM

Thank you again for your honest response. Please be mindful, though that my claim was to wide-ranging knowledge, not to superior intelligence.

As for your procedural question, what do you think my procedure will be?

1. "Here is a sick patient with a water balance problem. Quick, let's calibrate our *** machine, otherwise it going to be of no *** use at all".

2. "Here is a sick patient with a water balance problem. Forget the *** machine. It's not calibrated for this problem."

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#185
In reply to #184

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/24/2017 1:07 PM

Please be mindful, though that my claim was to wide-ranging knowledge, not to superior intelligence.

Just keep in mind, a wide range of knowledge may be interesting tidbits of information but not necessarily really useful in upon itself. Until its integrated with pertinent and practical information.

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#187
In reply to #184

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/24/2017 1:31 PM

I am still curious to know how often you see hypernatraemia, and how quickly it is usually diagnosed.

As for your procedure question, I am not a Dr., so I will not attempt to answer it. But I would imagine you do what is quickest.

I also think you are under the impression that I am pro BIA. I am neither for nor against it. I just think it is interesting technology.

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#190
In reply to #187

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/24/2017 1:46 PM

Thank you. It is not at all a common condition, though I once presented a paper to our local intensive care society concerning 3 cases I had to deal with. All 3 of them were caused by mismanagement of the fluid therapy of diabetic patients, and were therefore unnecessarily admitted to intensive care.

As for doing what is quickest, sometimes we have to balance between doing the best for the individual and doing the best for the population. If I thought that calibrating a machine was going to benefit other patients in future then yes, I would do that. In this situation, though, I would find it difficult to devise a calibration scheme.

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#191
In reply to #190

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/24/2017 1:53 PM

Calibration scheme: walk up and pee on the paddles, if smoke is released, then the machine is working. What it is working on, that remains unclear.

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#189
In reply to #184

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/24/2017 1:37 PM

Doh! Give them some water if they are dehydrated. 9/10 times that is the answer, depending on how far underwater the patient was.

For all I know, other independent observations such as skin texture optical measurement has as much or more meaning than surface impedance.

The latest and greatest apparently scratches just under the epidermis, and gets something nearer to bulk conductivity, but that still leaves a lot of room for doubt IMHO as a physical chemist.

It would make more sense to pull a quick sodium measurement, and a blood viscosity measurement if possible since blood viscosity probably tracks rather nicely with water content, although I understand high blood glucose would be a direct interference. Blood lipids (as in hyperlipidemia) might disturb such attempted readings. Oh well, back to the chalk board.

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#181
In reply to #179

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/23/2017 11:01 AM

First, you moved the goal post by insisting that this technology must meet the stringent requirements of ICU anesthesiology for this to be valid technology. If my memory is correct this started with discussing worker hydration levels. You probably never thought that this was moving the goal because this was always your concern but this was never anyone else's concern.

Second, you have another electrical misunderstanding that this is a surface impedance measurement. The frequency of the signal must be much higher than 50 kHz for skin effects to dominate the measurements. At this frequency the signal and electric current must travel through the core of the body for a closed current path. Unfortunately no single path can be isolated to perform any Kirchhoff loop or mesh analysis to reveal the impedance of any sub-component.

Third, just because you were asked a question in an oral exam on electric theory does not give you license to claim expertise in my field any more than my high school worm dissection grants me permission to use a scalpel on another human being. I am deeply offended by your contempt of disciplines outside of your field!

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#186
In reply to #181

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/24/2017 1:23 PM

Dear little bully boy, have you crept out from under the stone again? I do hope the sun continues to shine on you.

The goal posts stay where they began. I said that sort of machine does not work (the original being the "hydration status monitor" at the gym or swimming pool) and I still say it does not work. The fact that you can sell your machine to the sucker at the gym is beside the point.

Second, you have the electrical misunderstanding. I am not interested in surface impedance measurement as such. I am interested in the impedance measurement obtained from surface electrodes being interpreted as a water balance. Do keep up.

Third, you fail to answer the obvious. If all you know is in the field of electricity, how can you claim you know how to produce a machine which can measure water balance? I don't want to bother with a conversation with you. I want a proper medical engineer to tell me what he can do, and he/she and I can agree on the next step.

Now crawl back under your stone.

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#188
In reply to #186

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/24/2017 1:36 PM

Must you insult anyone who disagrees with you. How childish. Grow up.

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#176
In reply to #170

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 5:28 PM

Are you so desperate to never be wrong that you are willing to employ these shoddy attempts to reinterpret and reframe?

Can you not understand that 'never being wrong' is not a quality of an authority or someone deserving of respect. 'Honeaty, especially concerning admitting and correcting one's own wrongs' is far more important.

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#169
In reply to #167

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 10:17 AM

I never said you were a liar and I don't remember anyone here calling you a liar. I am certain you are accurately expressing your opinions, beliefs and biases. I am also certain that at one time the beliefs you've expressed here were the state of technology on hydration metrology. Technology and knowledge constantly change. Proof of the efficacy (or the lack of efficacy) of any technology is not made by anecdotal example. Anecdotes reveal only biases.

I did say that you are arrogant (exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner) in your treatment of others here. Personal anecdotes presented as evidence are themselves evidence of arrogance.

I also said that you are ignorant ( unaware, uninformed). Unfortunately I only implied that this was on the topic of electrical testing. It appears that I am incorrect on my opinion of your ignorance. Ignorance is treatable.

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#173
In reply to #169

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 2:48 PM

Dear Redfred,

thank you so much for your kind note. It made my day. Indeed I do hope you are having as good a day as I am.

Regards, Peter

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#175
In reply to #173

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 3:53 PM

Dear Peter,

I'm glad you are having a good day and I'm pleased that I played a happy part in making this day. I too am having a good day and will have a better night going to a concert with friends.

I also retract my snarky remark on ignorance. Treatments don't always take on the the first try.

I work in a massive research facility and have helped many a scientist to accurately perform their research. I've been a coauthor on many papers in Elsevier, Research Gate, Science, and other respected periodicals. I've also found fundamental flaws in submitted papers to these periodicals that were then not published. Dismissing new knowledge mandates stagnation of knowledge and can get a little personal for me.

Enjoy the day and keep growing.

Barry

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#177
In reply to #167

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 5:31 PM

Come on, read man!

I specifcally told you those things don't suffice as support. Not ad homenim attacks, not hearsay, not further empty claims, not appeals to authority.

Your believability reputation is nearly negligible at this point.

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#178
In reply to #167

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/22/2017 7:22 PM

"....

a) that I am a liar and that the UK hospitals are full of such machines or b) that the UK is benighted territory and that the US hospitals are full of such machines.

..."

That is not even close to your original argument. Your original argument was essentially that no analysis of body water/fat/composition was possible using measurements of currents through two conductive plates contacting the body.

I'm going to assume you follow the distinction. I also feel it is safe to bet your argument did morph without your knowledge and intent.

Is it safe to assume you saw the problems with your first claim and that motivated you to change your statement midstride? If not, what reasoning do you propose?

In the future, openly announcing a change in your position instead of trying to pass off a new argument as if it were what was being debated all along will help to avoid the perception of a slimy attribute to your argument.

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#182
In reply to #159

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/24/2017 8:44 AM

That may well be, but Hitler (this thread is now officially D.O.A.) could have made subjects admit to their water content and give a full confession using two metal plates, and some electricity. They would have given full details, water content, fat content, bone content, muscle, poop content, what they had for dinner if dinner was served last night, and how many gold teeth they had.

All of that from two metal plates, and some juice.

I am Dave the thread-ender.

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#183
In reply to #182

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/24/2017 10:17 AM

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#144
In reply to #142

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 3:44 AM

"No it can't. It cannot separate..."

.

You are exhibiting a special type of wrong. I isn't principally that you don't have the correct information; your error is hubris-bound, i.e. you can't see how to solve the problem so you infer that the problem cannot be solved, so all presented solutions must be frauds.

.

Continual improvement (finding and correcting errors) is not compatible with a self image of perfection. Perfect doesn't progress.

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#148
In reply to #144

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/21/2017 9:02 AM

So how do you know that pHpH001 is not a doctor in NK, where all progress has been declared irrelevant by decree of the fearless dear leader chief assassin. (Yeah, we already know he is not).

The deal is that not everyone has been read in on the full topic. The latest machines imported from the People's Republic of Californica have all the bells and whistles, including a bicycle bell, and a panic whistle that summons a taxi ride to safe places.

The settings are selectable by the operator:

(1) - normal human measurements including snowflakes. (uses micro-amp 20 kHz phase locked signal)

(2) - suspected moderates (uses milli-amps and voltages up to 48 V).

(3) - known conservatives and repubelicans (switches to low voltage (defined as <600V, direct connection to MCC bus)

(4) - right wing commentators (uses output directly off the 69 KV XFRMR at the nearest substation). Usually causes a burning hair smell, and a slight dimming of the lights in Sacramento.

This has been a fakey fakey love you long time news update, from FAKE in Lubbock, TX. Our station motto: " If they don't like that, let them f*** cake."

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#67

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 11:34 AM

Good subject.

I have a close relative who is in her early nineties. Nobody can remember her ever drinking anything but small cups of coffee from the time she wakes up until the time she goes to bed. She is still strong as ever (German) and she often drives hundreds of miles each week visiting her children etc.

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#68
In reply to #67

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 11:50 AM

So her eyes are very largely open by now? Good that when drinking those are fully wide. I bet she drives with her legs crossed though. Cheers to someone's dear Grandmother. Gotta love 'em.

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#93
In reply to #68

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/19/2017 11:27 AM

She's a German machine. Nobody has ever seen her use the bathroom either.

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#94
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/19/2017 11:49 AM

She's probably squirrelling it away in the pan-dimensional portal.

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#69
In reply to #67

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 12:07 PM

When I was about 18 years old, I loved playing sheepshead,... and any night of the week, one could go down to the local tavern there was always a game going on at the end of the bar.

Or, we had a neighbor who had a small shack or cottage, where some of the neighborhood would stop in and there be a few games going... The sharpest playing, was in his mid 80's... he smoke cigars and word has it, drank a fifth a whiskey a day.

He'd have a bottle there as he played, sharper than a tack as the night went on,... and his bottle empting out... problem was... if you were his partner, and you missed a trick, the first time... he'd get upset,... but any time after... he get pretty piss'd.

So me being a young player (at the time), who made mistakes... he got po'd at me a couple of times.

But I was really in awe,... with as much whiskey as he put away, how he could remember what card was already played, and what possible cards you or each other held... and we like 4-5 and maybe 6 hands in a game... 7 people was real cut-throat.

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 12:30 PM

My dad taught me a different card game, but basically the same idea. The idea was to capture "tricks."

He was murderous at it.

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#71
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 12:36 PM

has,... and if you pick the blinds you HAVE TO PICK UP AT LEAST ONE TRICK, or you and you partner pay double...

it goes by another name called Schafkopf..

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#77
In reply to #71

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 5:24 PM

In Michigan, we have a card game like that called Euchre.

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#79
In reply to #77

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 6:01 PM

Mum & dad liked to play that game with friends when I was a child. I could hear them talking and laughing in the kitchen late into the night. Good times.

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#81
In reply to #79

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 6:28 PM

Really, Euchre??? I have heard that not many people have heard of it out side of Michigan, mainly the U.P. Something like the pasties we love to eat.....

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#82
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Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 6:31 PM

Yepperdoodles. Quite popular.

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#84
In reply to #81

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 8:43 PM

Nope,... wisconsin it's pretty popular

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#90
In reply to #81

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/19/2017 9:06 AM

You eat pasties? Wow must be a lot of strip clubs up there. (That's a joke, bro).

I think dad called our game spades, but Euchre is almost identical to that, AFAICT.

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#83
In reply to #77

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/18/2017 8:42 PM

Oh... we played that on bus trips in high school,... very similar.

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#86

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/19/2017 6:27 AM

As a follow-up to my own medication comment - never mind the complex science - I have found a glass of beer when feeling thirsty (or dry mouth/throat) during hard work has a beneficial effect (by hard work I mean any exercise more than sat at a computer) - I don't know why (but can guess) - I just pee more water - even when sweating a lot.

Just lately, for 6 days, I have been thinning out shrubs and brambles from the undergrowth (knackering for me) and the beer (as opposed to water/tea/coffee) really helps. I feel better for it.

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#104

Re: Am I Drinking Enough Water?

04/19/2017 2:36 PM

Ronseto, I see a lot of links and scientific references supported by facts and studies, posted here.

None of that matters!

If your wife said you are not drinking enough water, then you are not. End of story, she needs no science or facts to back up her claims, she's your wife and she is always right.

The sooner husbands figure that out, the happier they will be.

I could never figure it out, oh, well.......

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