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Universities Vs. Colleges Vs. Institutes

05/10/2017 12:14 PM

I went to an institute, (Pratt) and got a good education, but that was many, many years ago. At the time, engineers came from institutes like MIT, Stephens, Pratt, etc. I had no experience with education at the university or college level. Today with all the liberal left, anti free speech movements in the university system, I'm wondering if this liberal left movement has also infiltrated the institute system? If you recall, UCLA had far left professors on the staff like Angela Davis, a card carrying communist. It appears to have gotten worse over the years. How does a way liberal education affect the performance of the graduates from such schools?

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#1

Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/10/2017 2:20 PM

If you want to know what is happening to American universities today, download and read Thorstein Veblen's highly prophetic

The higher learning in America : a memorandum on the conduct of universities by business men

published in 1918 - 99 years ago.

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#2

Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/10/2017 3:40 PM

Liberal does not mean what it used to mean: Formerly, a liberal education meant you got plenty of education, and you didn't go broke for life getting it. It was a college bachelor's degree that meant something - - you were not being taught what to think, or regurgitate, or throw bricks because of - - you were being taught how to think critically (weighing the benefits and shortcomings of various ideas), do the math, roll your own.

It brought us all of the technology around us today.

Now, I am not sure, but every once in a while I meet a Texas Tech University student, and I am awed how well informed some of them are, how much they see about what is taking place in the real world, and what their plans for life are. So many of them are light years ahead of what my aspirations were and are.

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#12
In reply to #2

Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 12:20 PM

I believe its origin is Latin (liberalia studia) ... but was developed by the Greeks.

had to check and yes,.. it is...

but it was hi-jacked, evolved or what ever you want to call it... but like so much... everything evolves...

I recall, way back in grammar school, our teachers were quite political liberal... and the influences was quite challenging for an adolescent.

.

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#3

Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 5:31 AM

With the paper-based rather than Competency based world we`re living in today, without a University degree, your voice is never heard. This lets most of us forget the fact that most innovators used to come from Colleges & Institutes.

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#8
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 11:31 AM

OK, what University did Tesla come from? What university did Alexander Graham Bell attend, and for crying out loud what university did Thomas A Edison attend?

Tesla - Graz U. in Styria, Austria.

Bell - University College in London

Edison - Cooper Union (institute), in New York

I am sure the list goes on and on from there.

How many inventors and successful businessmen (and women) never had the "advantage" of a university education. Education at University is not a right, nor is it a license into any particular profession, but must be viewed as a path leading to a door to the real path of learning, education allows those who apply their learning to achieve the honors of being a licensee into a profession, as a reward for hard work, not a birth right.

There are plenty of successful people, that in spite of the lack of having that college degree, they do manage to have their voice heard in big ways, may not find them on this blog, but they are probably busy making life happen.

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#25
In reply to #8

Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 11:07 PM

"Education at University is not a right..."

While I agree with that statement, there are plenty of politicians and "social justice warriors" who would violently (literally) disagree.

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#29
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/12/2017 9:28 AM

If they want to (violently) disagree, I can meet them in my driveway, click, clack.

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#31
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/12/2017 9:46 AM

... politicians and "social justice warriors" who would violently (literally) disagree.

It interesting, that these "social justice warriors" can do their thing during a weekday an within normal working hours...

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#32
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/12/2017 10:05 AM

That's OK, they are welcome to come over and try my wife. She is a dead-shot with a Colt .22 revolver. She WILL put their eyes out, for good.

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#33
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/12/2017 10:16 AM

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#39
In reply to #25

Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/17/2017 4:26 PM

Bottom line, people have the right to apply for (college) admission, but they do not have the privilege to be admitted just because they declare themselves qualified for admission...

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#13
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 12:22 PM

that's an opinion... my opinion is that colleges can and has created group think.

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#4

Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 8:46 AM

I wonder why schools that produce engineers had or still have "Institute" in their names. RPI is, I think, the oldest of them in the US (founded 1824), so perhaps the others followed suit. I can think of a couple that have become full-fledged universities (Carnegie Mellon, born Carnegie Institute of Technology, and Clarkson University, formerly Clarkson Institute of Technology); I'm sure there are others.

As to the question you pose, I think we need to hear from CR4 members who have had more recent experience than I have (I left Carnegie Mellon in 1990) and, I take it, you as well. My sense is that it'd be difficult to generalize, just as it'd be hard to develop a cohesive, generally-applicable description of CR4 members.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 10:19 AM

Add Case Institue of Technology to the list ! Now CWRU.

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#6
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 10:38 AM

I got my first degree from a technical college in the mid 90's that proved itself to be a useful life long education then I went back to school for a second degree in the mid 2000's for a EE degree.

The second one proved to be a total waste of time and money because so little of the degree and any class work or education behind it had anything to do with engineering of any kind. I put in 3.5 years of a 4 year degree in EE and had maybe 5 classes out of dozens that had anything to do with EE in any form and not one was an actual electronics class of any sort.

As of now from everything I hear for people I know who work in most every profession the people the typical college or university are turning out are even less educated in their chose field than ever. THen to make things worse very few have any work ethic or capacity to deal with any form of stress or demands either or even communicate face to face in any formal manor.

Teachers can't teach. Business people can't do basic business, professionals have no knowledge of skills in their profession and everyone of them feels that form day one they should be making $100K a year with 30 days of paid vacation plus have every perk the top company executive has from day one even if they don't know how to run the coffee machine or copier.

Several people I know that are approaching retirement soon have commented that as of the last 5 or so years they have to interview 20 - 50 people to just to find one person who may be remotely capable of doing the actual work required of them for their jobs and even of those they do hire they have to fire and rehire 5 or more before finding one who actually will do the work required of them as it needs doing.

The candy ass educated generation of America.

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#10
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 11:56 AM

It says something about how rare also the good people are, and the contrapositive. That is the general nature of statistics. Do not be a victim of statistics. Become your own class of statistic outside the so-called "norm" of experience.

If you will do more, make an operation more profitable, and/or bring some fresh thinking to solving older problems than the next guy, there is no lack of career opportunities in this world.

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#17
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 1:53 PM

Unfortunately far too often those who have the capacity and capability to do more get passed over or run out of the company because their superiors feel threatened by their ability because they lack it themselves.

I've been fired three times in my life and not once was one a legitimate firing for not having met the company standard and expectations.

Everyone was from some half wit above me protecting his job he and everyone else knew he was not qualified for nor capable of handling at all costs.

That's the reality I know of being a statistical anomaly of being a capable and contributing employee.

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#18
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 1:56 PM

I know exactly what you're saying.

Even though I was pissed... I wasn't going to jeopardize my integrity by complying with an incompetent buffoon.

I've said this before, and Ill say it again. The only people who actually know what the price of integrity is, is the one's that had to put it on the line.

The others are just talk.

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#21
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 2:33 PM

True that. Integrity is another of those qualities best held on to, and never lost, hard to get back, if not impossible, just ask James Comey.

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#23
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 2:48 PM

15 minutes and destroy 20-30 years of integrity.

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#36
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/12/2017 6:13 PM

Some people are their own worst enemy.

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#37
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/12/2017 6:57 PM

Then some people spend all their time just cya.

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#38
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/17/2017 4:14 PM

It is ''old news'' that, in government bureaucracies, smallest through largest, ''cya'' is their highest priority, and full-time job, and is often (disguised) as some form of ''don't rock the boat'', etc.

But what are universities, colleges, and institutes, if not academic bureaucracies ?...

... where bureau-babble abounds... ... so group-think shouldn't be all that surprising...

(I can say stuff like this because both my schools have gone ''belly-up'' years ago...)

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#40
In reply to #38

Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/25/2017 5:29 PM

...OK.

For 25 trivial points, and a chance to move up to the next trivial plateau,

how would you most accurately describe an excentric professor at the University of Hawaii?...

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#20
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 2:29 PM

I don't think I was talking about you in particular, but the shoe does seem to fit.

Being a misfit anywhere except your own business is a sign on little patience for "fools."

I am happy to be a misfit up to the point where the Lord says, here is the land, water, you shall not pass. (me being the so-called water in the example).

If you constantly flood the minds of the "higher ups" at a company, they might indeed get nervous, because they probably aren't sure they are keeping you "busy" enough, and that you have thought of things that are outside the bucket of their narrow business model, and that makes them extra nervous. They can either take up drinking before noon, or fire you.

I feel your pain. My wife has had many experiences like yours as a highly intelligent person working in the medical field with prima donna doctors, and nurses that make a dominatrix look servile (control freaks). Heavy on the freak part, also.

What I meant by creating your own statistical class, is to transcend, to ascend, to live on the pinnacle of human experience, and know the taste, the smell, the sound, the touch, and the vision of freedom. Once you have reached such a level of enlightenment why would you want to go backward?

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#9
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/11/2017 11:51 AM

In my mind, an Institute is dedicated to a more narrow field of learning and research(i.e. Engineering (OMG how broad is that?)), whereas a University is a general grouping of colleges of learning, research, and general shenanigans.

Compare the research outputs of an Institute and a University and you will have part of the answer.

Compare the graduates of each, and your answer will be complete.

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#35
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Re: Universities vs colleges vs institutes

05/12/2017 6:08 PM

Yeah, some time back, some bozo's thought they would call Worcester Polytechnic Institute a university as well. It's an engineering college with a smattering of other stuff. Utter ballocks to try to call it a university and really an insult to boot. You still see university with a lower-case "U" in the literature, but that effort has largely died a welcome and ignominious death. I went there because it WASN'T a university. And unfortunately, certain political tendencies have infected the institutes as well. The infection may not run as deep but it's still there. I'm an '85 and '95 grad of WPI.

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#7

Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 11:24 AM

I would suspect newly graduated "engineers" wouldn't visit a forum like this one. They probably leave work, drive home, play with the kids and dog, watch TV, eat dinner and go to bed. When I left work, I brought the job home with me. I would constantly be thinking of how to solve a perplexing problem at work. It would keep me awake at night, but the next day, the problem was solved and I anxiously went to work to implement my night time revelation. I consider my work ethic is right up there, something that is sorely missing with today's engineers and workers in general. Those who operate a successful small business probably have the highest work ethics as they need it to stay competitive in business. It saddens me to see how today's graduates from high school can't read or write, much less do simple math. When I compare myself with today's workers, I feel I must be in the top 5% of people who "get it". I'm sure many on this forum feel the same way. Some may even put themselves among the top 1%; Solar Eagle, Andy Germany, Dell the Cat to name a few.

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#11
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 12:02 PM

It is certainly not hard in here to find those willing to put their best foot forward.

Most of us in here have past the tests of time, excelled in our endeavors, and pushed the frontiers of knowledge just a little bit.

However, one of my best professors at University was a man that never took work home, and my goodness, how prolific! Four major treatises on quantum chemistry, one advanced theory of reaction kinetics (the Transition State Theory) that almost got him the Nobel Prize, and hundreds of published scholarly papers and reviews in the physical chemistry and chemical physics journals. Over one hundred members of his research group at one point. Yes he was busy, that Henry Eyring.

Very likeable, popular, and easy to strike up an entertaining conversation with! He was one of a kind.

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#14
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 12:34 PM

Henry Eyring is the kind of person I wish I knew. After leaving New York many years ago, I haven't found anyone to hold an intelligent conversation with. It seems we have lost the passion for a good conversation. I can remember spending 6 or more hours just conversing about everything. Today, everyone is too busy with their I-phones and video games to hold a conversation. The same goes for listening to music. Many relaxing hours were spent listening to Mozart, Beethoven, Bach and others. I think good music is very important to our lives. I feel sorry for those who have never experienced the beauty of good music. BTW, I hear vinyl LP's are on their way back.

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#15
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 1:13 PM

It used to be more possible for two people to agree to disagree, and respect each other's right to do so, in the course of having an objective discussion...

These days, more people just have to moralize, the louder the ( better ? ) ...

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#19
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 2:20 PM

I certainly concur with that assessment of our current situation in these United States of America.

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#16
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 1:38 PM

If you could talk perturbation theory and Hermitian polynomials, the two of you could have gone on for days! Honestly, he would lose me after four or five turns of the chalk.

I listen to either one of two radio stations when in my shop: (1) KFYO local conservative talk radio and news (no big shocker there for those that know me well), and (2) KTTZ radio that has music in between the NPR news and opinion blurbs that promotes liberal agenda (that one may shock some people).

My theory: Know what is going on currently that people out there are talking about.

Get some musical inspiration while working on my gadgets (you would probably not be surprised between the relationship between classical music and mathematics).

Find out what the other side of the coin is thinking, talking points, that when and if I find myself in the midst of debate with any of their ilk, I am not walking unarmed into a "knife-fight", usually I prefer bringing a Long Navy Colt to a knife-fight.

It is sad that with the loss of creative thinking, critical thinking, the other side really has nothing of merit to offer me to consider. I listen, scratch my chin, and then usually cut them off at the knees. Unfortunate, and not done just to have another notch on the grip of my "Long Colt", but I view it as something that has to be done, similar to putting down a rabid coyote. I don't wish to have this burden, but what is a bunny rancher to do when confronted with a being intent on destroying his way of life?

Vinyl may come back, and tubes never really left, but wow are the tube systems high end these days.

I watched a video the other day about "dumb ways to die". Maybe it was concurrent with watching another about distracted cell phone users. One guy walked right up on a black bear (it was apparently in one of the cities of Florida), almost tripping over it before he saw it, reacted, and took off running the other direction. I guess the bear was not all that hungry, or was looking for other type of meat.

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#26
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 11:39 PM

"I would suspect newly graduated "engineers" wouldn't visit a forum like this one."

They probably do when they have a problem they can't solve, or are worried that their solution is glaringly incorrect.

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#28
In reply to #26

Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/12/2017 7:20 AM

They probably do when they have a problem they can't solve, or are worried that their solution is glaringly incorrect.

As long as they tried on their own,... I'm fine with that. The ones that post their problem without even attempting to solve it on their own expecting other to solve it for them, I have a problem with.

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#30
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/12/2017 9:29 AM

or they KNOW their solution is glaringly incorrect, but they still want someone to glance at it, and give them their daily dose of approval, participation trophy, and a rainbow snow cone.

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#22

Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 2:47 PM

the type of label of the educational center/institution, one has investigate with challenging questions.

I interviewed an engineer who on his resume listed his degree from MIT. That was intriguing, why did this graduate with that level of credentials wanted to work at a small OEM.

Meeting him, my first impression was .... 'impressive' sharply dressed with at least a $1,500.00 suit.

Through out the interview, I tried to extrapolate his back ground and knowledge. His kept going off the issue of my question by what the company can do for him... which is fair enough.... to a certain degree.

this kept on, through out the interview and the tour of the plant.

We returned to the office, where he kept on with what the company can do for him, I gave him a hand out of the basic benefits, that briefly went over the companies benefits and that if called for the next interview, he our human resources would go into more detail.

Tiring of his narcissistic conversation, I questioned his background further with my knowledge of MIT, and his responses really confused me, until I asked him, "When you refer to your school as MIT, you are referring to "Massachusetts Institute of Technology, correct?".

His response was "No, Minnesota Institute of Technology".

I questioned why that isn't spelled out or listed on his resume instead of MIT. His response was he liked the name MIT better, and that's what he called his alma mater.

I then mentioned "isn't that misleading"., His response to that was, he'd didn't lie.

That interview ended for him right there. I told him, if we pursue this further, we will call him.

He did a follow up all, and I responded that "we are looking for a more qualified candidate."

in my opinion, one that doesn't mislead.

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#24
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Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/11/2017 3:55 PM

Wow. Good sleuthing job! He almost pulled the wool, didn't he?

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#27
In reply to #24

Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/12/2017 7:18 AM

No,... his narcissism preceded him. I could not get out of him what value he could add to the company. But I did enjoy telling him we are current pursuing for someone more qualified for the job. Hope it did him good on his job hunting skills.

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#34
In reply to #22

Re: Universities vs Colleges vs Institutes

05/12/2017 1:02 PM

Unfortunately for me in interviews and a number of jobs the reverse of this has been too much of a problem.

The interviewer and or manager/boss was the one who was continually shady about revealing their actual credentials and validity of their educational and experience claims.

They failed the 'like recognizes like' tests every time just like many posters who come through here do when asked what should be simple easy to answer questions if they truly do know their subject as they claim to.

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