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Anonymous Poster #1

Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears Train

06/08/2017 2:19 AM

Hello. I wanted to know what if we can use sprockets chain in a compound gear train to reduce the heat loss. I mean let us imagine that there is a compound gear train which consist of 4 gears. the First gear ( lets us say A) has 56 teeth. the Gear B has 28 teeth. the Gear C which has 24 teeth is on the same shaft as Gear B. Gear A rotate Gear B and is connected to each other through sprocket chain system. Now Gear C rotates Gear D which has 12 teeth. these last two gears are attached with different sprocket chain. So the system looks like something that , the Gear A and B are attached to each other through sprocket chain system and Gear C and D are attached to each other through sprocket chain system. The Gear A rotates with 50 hz. The gear B will rotate with that of the double of this frequency. That is 100 hz. The Gear C will also rotate at the same speed as Gear B so 100 hz. Now If gear C rotates at 100 hz then Gear D should rotate at 200 hz. And the heat produced in this entire process is significantly reduced. Can such a system is possible. What are the advantages and disadvantages of such a system. What problems can arise? Kindly tell me . Thanks.

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#1

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 3:03 AM

"... the heat produced in this entire process is significantly reduced. Can such a system is possible. ..."

.

How have you arrived at this conclusions? As compared to what?

Kindly tell me. Thanks.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#4
In reply to #1

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 3:22 AM

Compared to the simple gear tooth meshing gear train. Because there is no meshing of gears in this system, the heat produced due to it and the consequent losses will be eliminated. it will like tun smooth.

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#9
In reply to #4

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 4:03 AM

You don't have gear to gear meshing, but you have to mesh gear to chain and then chain to gear in place of any gear to gear.

"It will like tun smooth"

Like Maybe. For like a while. Just remember, the fewer the number of teeth, the less smooth it will turn.

.

By the way, Raj, if you desire anonymity, you should continue to respond anonymously for the entirety.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#15
In reply to #9

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 4:48 AM

yeah forget to click on anonymously . What can i do your name is so powerful haha.

yes i understand. But still it will be more beneficial than gear meshing. and can you also tell me what type of Gears are best for something like 50 hz or something? Consider that here that there is no load or anything. just compound gear trains with sprockets. Thanks bro .

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 8:07 AM

<...what type of Gears are best for something like 50 hz...> Well, it depends upon what the mechanism is trying to do and some meaningful numbers, which have been withheld from the forum.

<... or something...> Or what, exactly?

<...Consider that here that there is no load or anything...> Then the smoothest and most efficient thing to do is to turn the bloody thing off. Then it won't produce heat and it will be as smooth as the proverbial baby's bottom.

Consider the risks involved in this thread pi**ing the forum off...

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Anonymous Poster #1
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 8:55 AM

no not pi****g off . I appreciate your help actually. Thanks.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#21
In reply to #17

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 10:53 PM

Hey PW slack. I need your advice on something. It's about engine that I have been developing and it would be s great help if you could look at it kindly. If you have some mail or something where I could send you the file and maybe you could take a look at it ? It would be of great help to me.

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#26
In reply to #21

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/09/2017 10:04 AM

There is a personal messaging system in CR4 that anyone other than Anonymous Poster #1 onwards can use. Make sure it is accompanied by a purchase requisition for the value of the time involved.

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#2

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 3:11 AM

....or you just use a little gear lube.....

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 3:24 AM

haha. Nice one bro. But no i am not looking for gear lube.

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#3

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 3:16 AM

The reason that sprockets and chains are used here:

is that, compared to other possible drive systems (and the forum is denied comparisons with other arrangements that the Original Poster is considering), the arrangement is very efficient, in as much as it converts the maximum of the rider's effort into drive thrust. Efficiency is particularly important here.

<...disadvantages of such a system. What problems can arise?...> Loss of drive when the chain either breaks or derails from the sprocket(s) are among the possibilities.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#6
In reply to #3

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 3:25 AM

what are the probabilities of derailment of chains from sprockets if the frequency is as mentioned in the system?

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 3:33 AM

That would depend upon such design detail for the drive mechanism as has been withheld from the forum.

A bicycle chain derails generally because of:

  • Worn sprockets
  • Worn chain
  • Stretched chain
  • Chain misalignment
  • Weak spring tension
  • Excessive chain speed
  • Etc.

As these factors get worse, the probability increases.

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#22
In reply to #6

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/09/2017 12:01 AM

How does frequency affect the probability of derailment?

In the original post, you said: "The Gear A rotates with 50 hz." The Hertz (Hz) is a unit of cycles ( or waves, or vibrations, etc.) per second. Assuming that the cycle you are referring to is one rotation, then the Gear A is rotating 50 revolutions per second, or 50*60=3000 RPM. That is too fast for most chain/sprocket systems!

I suspect that 50 Hz is the frequency of your power source. The frequency of the power source may well control the speed of rotation of the motor driving your system, but a 50 Hz AC motor does NOT rotate 50 times per second.

What makes you believe that a chain/sprocket system creates less heat than a gear system?

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Anonymous Poster #1
#23
In reply to #22

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/09/2017 1:11 AM

Yeah i am talking about 50 Hz revolutions per sec. Not the AC motor Hz. And I just thought that because no meshing is occurring , then surely system must lose less heat when compared. Thats actually one of the reason why belts or chain driven by sprockets are used. I know it's a high frequency but motors do rotate at 1800 rpm which has practical use in day to day industries .And I know it's a new idea to use sprocket belt or chain system that is why it is in the category of new technology and research . I want to develop such a system and I need to know what are the problems in doing so . Read my forum once again , I have asked for criticism or problems that may arise . But still thank you for answering . Thanks bro. ����☺��

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/09/2017 7:16 AM

Do you think a chain does not mesh with a sprocket?

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#27
In reply to #23

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/09/2017 10:07 AM

<...1800 rpm...> is 30Hz. A minute ago it was 50Hz. Please eliminate the confusion by stating which of these is correct?

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#7
In reply to #3

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 3:28 AM

The problem with chain drives is the chain stretches over time and needs to be adjusted periodically....The problem with belt drives is the belt wears out....Gear drives just need to be properly lubricated....

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 4:09 AM

"needs to be adjusted periodically...."

Or has a sprung idler to take up any slack.

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Anonymous Poster #2
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 4:24 AM

<...idler...slack...>

Pardon?

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 4:28 AM

An additional sprocket engaging the chain and mounted to move and take up slack as the chain stretches....a tensioner.

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 4:31 AM

Think of the derailleur gears on a bicycle. As the chain moves from a large rear sprocket to a smaller one the chain becomes loose. The idler disc on a sprung arm pushes against the chain to tighten it & ensure that it remains in good contact with the sprocket.

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#14

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 4:34 AM

Chains/sprockets dissipate heat also, perhaps not as noticeable because of exposure to air.

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears train

06/08/2017 8:05 AM

You are correct. There is friction when the chain curves to go around the sprocket and the links pivot about the connecting pin.

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#19

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears Train

06/08/2017 11:43 AM

And how much heat energy do you think you are losing in comparison to the work energy being transferred by the chain?

Without quantifying anything there is no real answer.

BTW, typical dry roller chain when properly implemented has an efficiency of ~ 98%.

Mechanical power transmission process efficiencies.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears Train

06/08/2017 6:31 PM

What is a 'cam reaction-drive'?

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#25
In reply to #20

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears Train

06/09/2017 9:54 AM

It's an excellent phrase for an internet search engine's activities.

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#28
In reply to #25

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears Train

06/09/2017 5:13 PM

Indeed. That was my first attempt to find out. Even without Lyn here, I would not inquire had the answer been readily available.

The search yields a lot about photosynthesis, some about some specific chemical reactions, the previously linked page talking about efficiencies, and other pages on video games.

The only other transmission of power related things I could find in that search was about a reaction drive sprinkler head that used a cam to reverse the direction periodically.

.

Who knows, maybe I'm doing it wrong. Care to demonstrate the correct procedure as evidenced by ATQ?

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#29
In reply to #20

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears Train

06/10/2017 3:08 PM

This is what I have ever known them to be.

There are several variations on the concept but all use the same basic principle.

Coal stoker with ratchet cam driven auger.

The most complex ones have multiple lobes on the camshaft running 2 - 5+ ratcheting mechanisms (multi phased drive) allowing for a fairly smooth and continuous rotation of the driven end in one direction regardless of the rotation of the input shaft.

Interestingly as well by using a variable ramp between the camshaft lobe and ratcheting mechanism in some designs the reduction ratio can be made variable as well.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Sprockets Collaborated with Compound Gears Train

06/11/2017 12:16 AM

Thank you.

I would not have guessed the efficiency could be so high with the ratchet incorporated.

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