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What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 10:44 AM

It's been five years since the Higgs Boson was discovered at the LHC. After a break of a few years and upgrades the LHC was in a position a few years back to be able to tell us how "standard" the Higgs Boson is.

Here is an article from last year that talks about the data after the LHC upgrade that has helped scientists to understand the Higgs Boson better. The results? The Higgs Boson is everything the Standard Model said it would be, so far.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/new-data-give-clearer-picture-higgs-boson

It's important to remember that all of these discoveries at the LHC are statistical in nature, so as time goes by and more and more data is collected, there should be more discoveries and insights.

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#1

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 11:15 AM

I can't believe its been 5 years already.

I didn't get a chance to look at your link, but being a layman in this area I like to weigh in (prematurely), but it still interests me, so this is a comment as such.

I look at the data as being pieces of a large puzzle. As more piece are put together the understanding on Higgs Boson on how it can be used/applied/tested, and even if there are variances of the particle. As of right now, what I've read on this, a lot or everything about Higgs Boson is still loosely speculatory at best.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 1:11 PM

"On 4 July 2012, the ATLAS and CMS experiments at CERN's Large Hadron Collider announced they had each observed a new particle in the mass region around 126 GeV. This particle is consistent with the Higgs boson predicted by the Standard Model"

https://home.cern/topics/higgs-bosonit's been

5 years almost to the day...It doesn't seem like that long to me either.

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#2

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 11:36 AM

I'm mildly disappointed that the "heavier cousins" of the Higgs Boson have not been detected (yet) at the higher energies of the improved LHC. This might mean a further complication in trying to understand what constitutes dark matter but it is still early in this quest.

With how accurately and repeatedly the "standard model" has succeeded to predict new particles I'm afraid string theory may not have a place in particle physics. A "theory" that cannot produce testable experiments seems more like a Mathematical novelty than a Physics theory.

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#3
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 11:40 AM

With how accurately and repeatedly the "standard model" has succeeded to predict new particles I'm afraid string theory may not have a place in particle physics. A "theory" that cannot produce testable experiments seems more like a Mathematical novelty than a Physics theory.

or its really too chaotic for any application with todays technology to even comprehend. more less apply.

With this discovery still at it's infancy, I think you hit it on the head with it being more a Mathematical novelty.

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#7
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 2:05 PM

The Standard Model really is remarkable in its accuracy. Meanwhile all of the various extensions of the Standard Model continue to fail to deliver any particles in the real world. Supersymmetry, which really is a beautiful mathematical theory is a great example of failing to deliver the particles it promised. Ultimately nature seems to be saying "Nope, it's not that complicated" anytime we look for particles outside of the SM.

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#9
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 2:54 PM

Yeah I guess I shouldn't just pick on string theory. The extensions of the Standard Model have failed to predict additional particles that were later discovered. However, unlike string theory the extensions did predict other particles and how to find them if they existed. They just weren't out there to be found.

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#10
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 2:59 PM

I'm with you on string theory. I'm not quite sure the usefulness of a scientific theory that can't be tested. Maybe there is a way to test it but I'm not aware of it. Even though Supersymmetry is proving to be wrong, at least it could be proven wrong. Thus the blog "Not Even Wrong" regarding string theory...

http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/

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#17
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/07/2017 12:39 PM

The Standard Model has done it again. Say hello to Xi-cc++.

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#18
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/07/2017 12:49 PM

I don't quite remember who said it (physicist), when or were, but he made a tongue in cheek comment that went something like this, that the next Nobel Prize should be awarded to the next physicist who doesn't discover a new particle.

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#5

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 1:16 PM

Can't give these things away....

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#6
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 1:26 PM

p911: "I'll have a teaspoon of Higgs Boson please?"

Church of England: "We're out of Higgs Boson, we do have 'Cake and Death' though."

p911: "Ohhh, uhhm,... Cake sounds delightful, Cake please."

Minute 4:45

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#8

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 2:22 PM

Did the Higgs Boson go on an extended vacation? Golfing via quantum tunneling?

Another one... a Higgs Boson walks into a bar....you fill in the rest.

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#11

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/06/2017 4:55 PM

LHC double heavy particle to shine light on strong force

..."There are, however, six different types of quarks which combine in different ways to form other kinds of particle. Those that have been detected so far contain at most, one heavy quark.

This is the first time that researchers have confirmed the existence of one with two heavy quarks. According to Prof Guy Wilkinson of Oxford University, there is an intriguing difference between the new particle and the ones that have been discovered before.

"In contrast to other particles of this type, in which the three quarks perform an elaborate dance around each other, a particle with two heavy quarks is expected to act like a planetary system, where the heavy quarks are like two stars orbiting one around the other, with the lighter quark orbiting around this binary system."

The research team will now measure the properties of the Xi-cc++ to establish how this new arrangement of quarks behaves and how the strong force holds the system together. They also expect to find more double heavy quark particles.

Another unusual property of the particle is that it has two positive charges double that of the proton and it is four times heavier."...

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40521445

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#12

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/07/2017 6:33 AM

Am I the only one thinking, how much did this cost, what value are we getting out of it, how many irrigation systems/water purification plants/hospitals/universities.......could we get for this vast sum of money?

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#13
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/07/2017 7:00 AM

Am I the only one thinking, how much did this cost, what value are we getting out of it, how many irrigation systems/water purification plants/hospitals/universities.......could we get for this vast sum of money?

Yes, you are...

hospitals,... This type of research helps with future medical possibilities,... just like the early days in the development of the CAT Scan or MIR.

Universities; this is one of many derivative products of the universities .

And if throughout history if we all thought like that. We'd still be living in caves, hoping we'd get a next meal.

You see, not all things are laid out in front of you that has an end game in sight.

You don't know, what you don't know.

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#15
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/07/2017 11:44 AM

Well said!

Both phoenix911 and SolarEagle.

I have to bring up Benjamin Franklin's answer when he was asked about the use of his discoveries of electromagnetism:

"What good is a newborn baby."

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#16
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/07/2017 11:54 AM

That is a great analogy.

In honor of Ben,... other than a 'C' note, I'm awarding you a GA, which is worth a lot more at the CR4 trading post.

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#14
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/07/2017 11:00 AM

Big science is responsible for the world we live in....

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#24
In reply to #14

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 10:05 AM

I think as always, Science owes far more to Engineering, than the reverse.

Science is like a man wandering in the dark, feeling nothing, hearing nothing, but postulating everything.

Engineering is a team of experts feeling of an elephant in the dark, but at least each one has an idea of what she looks like (no one is apparently groping where sex identification could take place.), or he looks like for that matter.

You know, once in a while an engineer is picked up and dashed against the floor (there is always a floor in these stories), by the trunk of the angered elephant (somebody just groped in the wrong place in the dark).

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#23
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 9:41 AM

Anyone else think these guys are drawn off-topic by their own wizardry?

Higgs - no charge, and heavy as hell

Xi-cc++ - double the charge, and "about" four times the mass of proton, sounds a bit like 4He, or rather, alpha particle. Did someone make a boo-boo? Or is this mysterious Xi particle almost like an alpha particle, but not quite hardly?

Seems we would do well to put some physics (or least some spin-offs) to work solving general problems in the world, such as increasing energy storage cycle efficiency, changing the transportation fleet to increased efficiency, better nuclear power plants (fission), and at least one fusion plant that has output power and energy above the power (and energy integral) required to "initiate fusion".

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#25
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 10:44 AM

Seems we would do well to put some physics (or least some spin-offs) to work solving general problems in the world, such as increasing energy storage cycle efficiency, ...

And this would come from unforeseen discoveries that was initially unknown when started.

Do you see the conflict of your comment? What you imply is that by suggest to put physics to better use like increasing energy storage and the like are off the self items..., they're not.

By not knowing or understanding, does not mean they don't exist,... it has to be discovered.

dis·cov·er dəˈskəvər/ verb verb: discover; 3rd person present: discovers; past tense: discovered; past participle: discovered; gerund or present participle: discovering

  1. 1. find (something or someone) unexpectedly or in the course of a search. "firemen discovered a body in the debris"
    synonyms:find, locate, come across/upon, stumble on, chance on, light on, bring to light, uncover, unearth, turn up; track down "firemen discovered a body in the debris"
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#29
In reply to #25

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 1:25 PM

I doubt that any work at the Hadron, Cern, or any other super-collider will have or could have any bearing on how to couple the energy out of a molten silicon energy storage medium. The main challenge there is to develop better thermo-photovoltaics, better optical filters that can select the bandwidth needed without slipping unusable light out.

More is known in these fields already than is "unknown", but applying the research, yes, research got us this far, but it was as much engineering research as physics.

I don't think particle physics will have much to do with renewable energy, although just maybe it could have something to do with hot fusion, and already has a lot to do with "cold" fusion. The only place 4H has ever been observed is in the LHC, and there only in a very transitory nuclear excited state.

If you look at Brillouin Energy's website, you will probably see a mention of a "building-up" theory, or "ladder" or aufbau hypothesis. It involves directly, 4H arising from 3H capture of a cold neutron, the 4H immediately releases energy, an electron, and a neutrino, while changing to 4He. That, kind sir, is cold fusion, plain and simple.

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#31
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 1:29 PM

I wish I could answer that,... but as a layman,.. I can't. But what I do have is faith in science. And that soon or more then likely later, it will pay for itself. either in monetary or humanity.

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#34
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 3:36 PM

"what I do have is faith in science"

Be careful what you put your weight on, it might not hold up in the long run. Just sayin'.

Most science is well-established enough that yeah, OK, put some weight on it. Astronauts do every day, to the fullest extent possible.

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#35
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 4:08 PM

Be careful which child you raise. They could become the next Rush Limbaugh, or a drug addict or both.

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#37
In reply to #35

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/11/2017 8:50 AM

According to what I saw on that link, one could do a lot worse than having a Rush Limbaugh as a friend or family member. So there.

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#36
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 9:03 PM

True, since science became a tool for political agendas, true unabated science went the way of news media and not to be trusted.

politicians can make anything turn brown.

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#38
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/11/2017 8:51 AM

Please put that image back where you found it! I make me vomit internally a little bit upon seeing.

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#39
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/11/2017 10:16 AM

This picture is your vomit button... Got it.

may come in handy for future use.

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#40
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/11/2017 1:26 PM

eeeeeck, hurl, hurl, hurl. Dangit, man, I had just finished lunch! Now I gotta go hungry the rest of the afternoon.

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#41
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/11/2017 1:44 PM

Hurl Button test, is a go....

NASA should have that on their check list

BOOSTER – "GO"
RETRO – "GO"
FIDO – "GO"
HURL Button - "GO"
GUIDANCE – "GO"
SURGEON – "GO"
EECOM – "GO"
GNC – "GO"
TELMU – "GO"
CONTROL – "GO"
PROCEDURES – "GO"
INCO – "GO"
FAO – "GO"
NETWORK – "GO"
RECOVERY – "GO"
CAPCOM – "GO"

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#42
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/11/2017 1:53 PM

countdown to hurl: 10..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1... and we have lift off the chair, and hurl No.1 flight in underway here at Cape Canaveral.

OMG, the vomitus just landed on the boatacus of fmr. VP Gore! The decks are awash with yesterday's pea soup! I bet that is gonna leave a mark!

Hurl No.1 to Houston in the dark, we lost your comms, are you just laughing? Do you want us to abort orbital injection? Houston in the dark...we seem to have a problem here. Talk about dangerous intersection with hurtling space junk - did you just see last Thanksgivings Day Dinner whiz past?

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#19

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/07/2017 10:42 PM

Hoping it will find a nice Higgs Bosom to snuggle with?

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#20

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 2:19 AM

No one has answered the question - how much did this sighting of the boson cost?

What real life application does it have?

I'm a working engineer. Any proposal I make for spending someone elses money has to give them pay back in a limited time frame.

That doesn't seem to apply to this massive investment.

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#21
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 6:55 AM

DavidSA, actually yes it has been answered, you just have to get out of your engineering box to understand.

As an engineer you have a well defined structured goal with a schedule and a budget, and your trying to compare the with that.

Physicists do not, because they are searching facts for unknown discoveries using theoretical models, notions and mathematical equations that need to be proved.

You need to make an effort to understand that.

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#22
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 7:14 AM

An example, is Einstein's questions of E=Mc2

Or his theory that gravitational fields can bend light.

This is not fully understood for the reason way by layman's like you or me,... but its still excepted seems to us to be relatively simple that this just happens.

Or something more applicable such as Special Relativity where speed/motion affects time for GPS satellites and needs to be adjusted.

'Special Relativity predicts that the on-board atomic clocks on the satellites should fall behind clocks on the ground by about 7 microseconds per day because of the slower ticking rate due to the time dilation effect of their relative motion'

It comes down to what I posted earlier,... 'you don't know, what you don't know'. and your stuck in your cave, wondering where your next meal is coming from.

btw,...That last sentence, I was metaphorically speaking.

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#26
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 11:07 AM

I hate to disillusion, but Albert Einstein did not need a giant collider to come up with Special or General Relativity, nor did he need it for his work on the Stimulated Emission of Radiation, or the Spontaneous Emission of Radiation, all master-works.

He needed chalk, chalkboard, pencil, and paper, and a publisher.

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#27
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 11:15 AM

So, you're drawing the line. got it.

This far,... No farther.

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#32
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 1:51 PM

"The line must be drawn hea. This fa, no futha"

Gotta love me some John Luke Piccard (Patrick Stewart)! What a passionate and skilled actor.

No, I am drawing no lines, only parallels, you can fill in the dots on my paper.

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#33
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 2:26 PM

Nothing like a great Thespian actor....

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#28
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Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 12:05 PM

Today's XKCD comic is extremely relevant.

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: What's Next for the Higgs Boson?

07/10/2017 1:27 PM

That is why most mechanics just stick with wrenches, pliers, screwdrivers, etc. I personally have never use a quantum mechanic to work on any of my electrons, or other particles. They seem to work just fine all the time without any intervention.

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