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Auto-Recloser Issue

08/15/2017 11:37 AM

So we have had an AR (Schneider N-series) that's been disconnected from the circuit for a few months now due to nuisance tripping (as reported by the maintenance team). We tried to put it back in the circuit, but on energizing the line our substation line breaker tripped on over-voltage. We've removed the bad boy from the circuit. Could someone render their thoughts on this?

I'm preparing to check for low gas pressure (it has SF6) since this is one of the obvious indications on an over-voltage trip in our case.

Your advise will be highly appreciated.

oh yah...I've been relying on CR4 for almost 8 years now, and just officially joined the club :)

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#1

Re: Auto-Recloser issue

08/15/2017 11:39 AM

<...Could someone render their thoughts on this?...> Sure. Try ringing these people directly.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Auto-Recloser issue

08/15/2017 4:31 PM

Yeah. That's in the plans.

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Auto-Recloser issue

08/16/2017 3:41 AM

So, what did they say? The forum might like to know.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Auto-Recloser issue

08/16/2017 9:08 AM

"The overvoltage cannot be caused by the autorecloser, only by other parts of the system.

For this we need you to share the complete Single Line Diagram to help us determine the level of support required...."

This was the message from schneider-electric

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Guru
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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Auto-Recloser issue

08/16/2017 9:42 AM

And what did they say over the phone? Surely there have been phone calls?

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#10
In reply to #6

Re: Auto-Recloser issue

08/16/2017 11:10 AM

...and what was your response to Schneider? Surely you don't think that anyone on the web knows more about the equipment than the OEM (who already supplied the only correct answer). Hint: VCBs can be a source current chopping, but it's the configuration of the MV network surrounding it that determines if the problem will occur.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Auto-Recloser issue

08/16/2017 11:29 AM

We don't share sensitive network diagrams with random third parties, but if that's what you are accustomed to then I have no arguments, but that's not the protocol here. In any case if we had any overvoltages in the system our feeder protection systems at the substation (GIS) would have picked it up. The particular autorecloser had been removed out of the circuit a few months ago, and our network had no issues until the moment we tried to energize the autorecloser after connecting it back into the overhead line.

With all due respect I simply don’t understand how submitting a SLD can help in resolving this issue. When all I need is some basic troubleshooting information from the OEM.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Auto-Recloser issue

08/16/2017 11:40 AM

<...random third parties...> That's the equipment supplier, for goodness' sake!

<...need...some basic troubleshooting information from the OEM....> That's what the telephone is for. It's disgraceful not to use it.

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Auto-Recloser issue

08/16/2017 1:51 PM

My good sir I use the phone constantly. Just like you, I prefer talking to a human for greater understanding and clarity of a situation. Honestly i think you have a misconception of how poor the customer service of multinational "subsidiaries" are in developing countries. I will bet you £100 and a cigar that when you call ABB in the US, Canada, or Europe you will get a totally different treatment on the same problem as compared to calling their "subsidiaries" (i like to call them franchises) in developing countries. That's why they feel "random".

As for your second comment. Like I said, I have called. I have learned my lesson and will keep talking to the US office for now. at least we have progress with them. Thanks.

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#16
In reply to #12

Re: Auto-Recloser issue

08/16/2017 2:54 PM

You are assuming that this particular recloser is causing the problem, yet you have not provided any convincing argument that that is the case.

If your device has an ADVC module then you should look at how it is configured and how it communicates with other reclosers on the line, since a misconfiguration/miscommunication could affect the overall reclosing scheme. You might also check the ADVC to make sure that memory wasn't affected by the long power outage, especially since the hold-up battery is only good for up to 44 hours depending on the options on your device.

The recloser operating mechanism is a stored energy system that uses capacitors to move the contacts inside the VCB bottle, so I would verify that they operate properly. The SF6 gas supply surrounds the operating mechanism, and is there primarily to provide a smaller enclosure with reduced interior clearances between live parts and grounded surfaces.

A loss of gas will reduce the LIWL (Lightning Impulse Withstand Level) by approximately 50%, but should not have any effect on normal operation unless you have very high TOVs (Transient Over Voltages) on the line during lightning/switching operations, hence the request for the SLD.

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#3

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/15/2017 4:55 PM

Why are you preparing to check the gas pressure in a vacuum AR?

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#13
In reply to #3

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/16/2017 11:37 AM

This question has answered itself.

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#4

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/15/2017 6:55 PM

Did the maintenance team have any suggestion of the cause of tripping, other than it was a nuisance for them and likely interrupted their break?

I don't have a clue, I just park cars.

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#8
In reply to #4

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/16/2017 10:18 AM

Of course they didn't! Anyway it has been sitting for so long that the control system (ADVC) batteries died. we will recharge the batteries and try to get some readings out of the control unit (we will not reconnect it back into the circuit). There's also a (optional) VT attached to it....i suspect this could be the culprit since the there was virtually no load on its secondary due to the batteries dying. I could be wrong though...

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/16/2017 10:49 AM

<...suspect this could be the culprit...> Is that what the equipment manufacturer said during the phone call(s)?

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/16/2017 11:20 AM

I know I just posted a reply detailing my telephone conversation, but it seems it was swallowed by the ether...

anyway here goes:

Schneider-Electric's Uganda subsidiary (that is the country I'm located in) has offered to send me a quotation for their site works and will not suggest anything further. I will call Schneider-electric's US office since I've worked with them before and they are more helpful than their subsidiary here. I've just been on this project for two months. The P&C engineer quit and did a bad job with documentation...organization is also a bit lacking in the T&D department (I have work to do i know).

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#17

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/16/2017 6:46 PM

Comments etc, a "baker's dozen"...

  1. You are in Uganda. Hence the local Schneider will not help because they have not been paid by your client.
  2. Other "posters" asking for single line diagram is just the standard first step in understanding a strange system. Step 2 on any equipment is checking its power supply is present and correct, which you seem to be following.
  3. Maybe power supply was the original fault, but just disconnecting the power - instead of disabling operation & leaving the battery on-charge has possibly added battery failure to the problems..
  4. Looking at www.schneider-electric.co.uk/, the N-series recloser seems to be a higher current version of "U series" recloser with the same control box ADVC -their document AMTED100055EN.pdf is a brochure with a good description, although the commisioning/fault find manual was not found.
  5. The recloser consists of a pole-mounted breaker assembly with a control box below connected by a cable & plug to socket on pole assembly. It also is usually associated with an isolator switch. You did not mention any of this or write whether the ACR was in the substation or "miles out in the sticks"!.
  6. I guess from your description that an upstream substation breaker trips when the source-side isolator of the recloser is closed?? How long before it trips??
  7. Did the recloser breaker close [or not]?? or open before 6 happened??
  8. I would suggest opening ACR source isolator, unplugging cable to control box, then reconnect MV to ACR - what happens?? Does ACR have event /current/voltage log to recall?
  9. Next try ACR operation with MV isolated - surely the control panel has a test mode?
  10. Finally, reconnect control box, re-apply MV - does ACR indicate/log anything significant??
  11. Has it occurred to you that overvolt trip of substation breaker may be due to load on line connected to ACR, no fault of ACR?
  12. Maybe the absence of helpfull drawings/manuals is due to item 1 above.
  13. Replacement of faulty bits under warranty may be hindered by 1 above!
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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/17/2017 4:30 AM

Thanks 67model. See my comments/responses inline.

  1. You are in Uganda. Hence the local Schneider will not help because they have not been paid by your client. - This is true. But it's still strange that the US office is way more helpful considering they weren't paid either.
  2. Other "posters" asking for single line diagram is just the standard first step in understanding a strange system. Step 2 on any equipment is checking its power supply is present and correct, which you seem to be following. - Yes the batteries are dead and old (past their 5-year lifespan).
  3. Maybe power supply was the original fault, but just disconnecting the power - instead of disabling operation & leaving the battery on-charge has possibly added battery failure to the problems.. - seems the maintenance team did not touch the control box. all they did was disconnect it from the MV circuit. I agree that disabling trip/close, and isolating some of the CB's in the control box (while leaving the batteries charging) would have been more prudent. Unfortunately those works were done after the P&C engineer had left the company. I have inherited a slight mess.
  4. Looking at www.schneider-electric.co.uk/, the N-series recloser seems to be a higher current version of "U series" recloser with the same control box ADVC -their document AMTED100055EN.pdf is a brochure with a good description, although the commisioning/fault find manual was not found. -I have found these documents and they've been very helpful (the white paper especially)
  5. The recloser consists of a pole-mounted breaker assembly with a control box below connected by a cable & plug to socket on pole assembly. It also is usually associated with an isolator switch. You did not mention any of this or write whether the ACR was in the substation or "miles out in the sticks"!. - The ACR is about 50km from the upstream substation. Isolator switch (if you mean the breakers in the control box) wasn't touched. See 3 above.
  6. I guess from your description that an upstream substation breaker trips when the source-side isolator of the recloser is closed?? How long before it trips?? - Isolation of that feeder upstream of the ACR is done via ABS (upstream of the ABS is the sub). By default this is the only isolation that the ACR has on the MV line...it was really not meant for the ACR. The ABS existed on that line prior to installation of the ACR. The substation breaker tripped almost immediately on energization of the line with the ACR.
  7. Did the recloser breaker close [or not]?? or open before 6 happened?? -The recloser was in the open position before energization. The recloser closed soon after energization, and the sub breaker tripped after that.
  8. I would suggest opening ACR source isolator, unplugging cable to control box, then reconnect MV to ACR - what happens?? Does ACR have event /current/voltage log to recall? - Will do this next week and fill you in
  9. Next try ACR operation with MV isolated - surely the control panel has a test mode? - Will do this next week and fill you in. Charging the old batteries and working on procuring new ones at the moment.
  10. Finally, reconnect control box, re-apply MV - does ACR indicate/log anything significant?? - Will do this next week and fill you in
  11. Has it occurred to you that overvolt trip of substation breaker may be due to load on line connected to ACR, no fault of ACR? - all critical loads on line side had been isolated.
  12. Maybe the absence of helpfull drawings/manuals is due to item 1 above. - No. just poor management and incompetence by the T&D department staff. Most of the bad apples have been terminated.
  13. Replacement of faulty bits under warranty may be hindered by 1 above! - I agree
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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/17/2017 6:07 PM

Thanks, WENRECO

ref 1 - The US branch has been paid by their other customers, probably not in Uganda

ref 5 - I meant the MV isolator to make ACR safe for work.

ref 6 - what is ABS? I tried search on Schneider UK website, but not helpfull - seems to find enclosures of ABS plastic. "Auto Breaker Switch"? Auto Branch Switch? If ACR is 50 km from substation, how far is ABS?

ref 8 - I should have written "open ACR with manual override", so you are checking for fault upstream of ACR or on its inlet side [are there surge arrestors?]. I suppose you will check that outlet side is dead in case an interruptor has lost vacuum.

ref 11 - I am sceptical about genuine overvoltage trip. I would check that overvolt relay settings voltage/delay are reasonable [is it peak voltage without delay? Does injection test set confirm it really trips at setting?] and look for confirmation from other kit than sub breaker to confirm actual voltage trace - could try overvolts as trigger for ACR volt/current waveform log. (a) Do static readings of sub breaker VT output agree with other instruments at same bus? Is it a CVT like ACR or is there a magnetic VT on the bus as "different technology" check? Does the maintenance manual test probe confirm voltage? (b) does the sub breaker you reference switch only the feed to suspect ABS & ACR feeder.

14. The line length to ACR is about 0.01 wavelengths, too short for voltage effects [I estimate about 0.4 milliseconds for echo from ACR] but what is downstream of ACR?

15. On the subject of checking actual volts/amps at fault, do you have telemetry from ABS and ACR to download or is it a 2 man, radio and truck job?

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/18/2017 7:47 AM

ref 1 - The US branch has been paid by their other customers, probably not in Uganda

- figures. Oh well...

ref 5 - I meant the MV isolator to make ACR safe for work. -Gotcha!

ref 6 - what is ABS? I tried search on Schneider UK website, but not helpfull - seems to find enclosures of ABS plastic. "Auto Breaker Switch"? Auto Branch Switch? If ACR is 50 km from substation, how far is ABS? - Air Break Switch

ref 8 - I should have written "open ACR with manual override", so you are checking for fault upstream of ACR or on its inlet side [are there surge arrestors?]. I suppose you will check that outlet side is dead in case an interruptor has lost vacuum. - Surge arrestors are present on the ACR itself. They were tested and are ok. No faults detected on the source (upstream) side of the ACR.

ref 11 - I am sceptical about genuine overvoltage trip. I would check that overvolt relay settings voltage/delay are reasonable [is it peak voltage without delay? Does injection test set confirm it really trips at setting?] and look for confirmation from other kit than sub breaker to confirm actual voltage trace - could try overvolts as trigger for ACR volt/current waveform log. (a) Do static readings of sub breaker VT output agree with other instruments at same bus? Is it a CVT like ACR or is there a magnetic VT on the bus as "different technology" check? Does the maintenance manual test probe confirm voltage? (b) does the sub breaker you reference switch only the feed to suspect ABS & ACR feeder. - Will go over these steps. As it is a GIS some steps will vary a bit. The relays overvoltage settings could be a bit too sensitive, but will confirm this weekend.

14. The line length to ACR is about 0.01 wavelengths, too short for voltage effects [I estimate about 0.4 milliseconds for echo from ACR] but what is downstream of ACR? - downstream of ACR is another ABS and down stream to that are two small towns with a total load of about 200kW.

15. On the subject of checking actual volts/amps at fault, do you have telemetry from ABS and ACR to download or is it a 2 man, radio and truck job? - 2 man, radio + truck job at the moment unfortunately...we should be upgrading all our system ABS's soon (not sure if the new ones will have telemetry features...long story), we will also be implementing telemetry (SCADA) on all the ACR's in our system.

thanks again.

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/20/2017 12:54 PM

Reference post #20 by WENRECO-ENG, reply to my #19....

ref 6 Ah! The joys of being "numbed by mnemonics". Is that ABS as in "hand operated off-load isolator" or "load make/break switch - hand or automatic or remote control?" or "Fault make and break circuit breaker tripped by automatic fault detection"? I do not blame you for using ABS because that is likely what is on the diagrams, parts lists & ABS enclosure - just trying to clarify for myself & other viewers what you have.

ref. 8 Just to understand, is the source side of the ACR conventionally the top [meaning arrestors are on load side]?? I see side is labeled "I", which might be "Input", but might be "I for current" because the CT is in side arm.

ref.11 Having thought a bit more, it would be better to trigger ACR logging on small current and maximise post trigger recording time - no need to look for pre-trigger events.

ref. 14 So what is length of circuit downstream of ACR? Distance to 200 kW loads? How does 200 kW load compare with the magnitude of on-line system generation at time of ACR circuit trial?

New Item 16 - On the possibility of over-voltage & voltage stability, are there upstream generators or tap-changer regulators or even fast electronic regulators whose response could be excessive? Do the 200 kW loads have any "funnies" like a voltage regulator - noting that higher input voltage to such a device for constant output voltage & current, reduces input current, which is a "negative resistance" and the opposite of " response damping".

67model

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/22/2017 12:49 AM

My responses inline

__________________________________________________________

Reference post #20 by WENRECO-ENG, reply to my #19....

ref 6 Ah! The joys of being "numbed by mnemonics". Is that ABS as in "hand operated off-load isolator" or "load make/break switch - hand or automatic or remote control?" or "Fault make and break circuit breaker tripped by automatic fault detection"? I do not blame you for using ABS because that is likely what is on the diagrams, parts lists & ABS enclosure - just trying to clarify for myself & other viewers what you have.

- Air break switch (http://www.lucyelectric.com/files/7713/7580/9845/AX-Rapier-Air-Brake-Switch-Disconnector-3.jpg) ...hand operated.

ref. 8 Just to understand, is the source side of the ACR conventionally the top [meaning arrestors are on load side]?? I see side is labeled "I", which might be "Input", but might be "I for current" because the CT is in side arm.

- Correct, source side is the side with the arresters. The "I" (red) is just an indicator of the "Closed" or "ON" state. The "O" (green) is an indicator of the "OFF" or "Open" state of the ACR. They are just visual indicators of the breaker state. If you look closely you'll a metallic "arrow" that points to them.

ref.11 Having thought a bit more, it would be better to trigger ACR logging on small current and maximise post trigger recording time - no need to look for pre-trigger events.

-We'll check on this when we get new batteries. The batteries are kaput

ref. 14 So what is length of circuit downstream of ACR? Distance to 200 kW loads? How does 200 kW load compare with the magnitude of on-line system generation at time of ACR circuit trial?

- Approximately 51 km to a 120kW load (town) and another 33.37 km to another smaller town (~80kW, but growing fast). Total load on that particular feeder averages about 1.3 MW. There's a large load center upstream of the ACR that makes up much of the load. Total installed generation is about 3.5MW. We are a rural mini-grid (Hydro source).

New Item 16 - On the possibility of over-voltage & voltage stability, are there upstream generators or tap-changer regulators or even fast electronic regulators whose response could be excessive? Do the 200 kW loads have any "funnies" like a voltage regulator - noting that higher input voltage to such a device for constant output voltage & current, reduces input current, which is a "negative resistance" and the opposite of " response damping".

- No upstream generators except from the main Hydro source. no tap-changers (except on distribution transformers 33/0.415 kV), and no VR's on system.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/22/2017 5:12 PM

Ref 6 - OK it's a hand isolator {at present}

Ref 8 - Not really clear... this Schneider N series diagram [from document AMTED100051EN.pdf on their website] shows arrestors both sides - which ACR side do you have connected to source? Sorry I was looking at U series diagram but have now found N series. Connection does decide if CVT is source or vacuum switched side.

Ref 14 - OK, you have now revealed 133 km of line in ACR circuit, plus how much more to hydro generator?? I feel the line lengths are not negligible & loadings light - possible voltage rise along lines. Transient data logging by ACR controller will help gremlin hunt.

Ref 16 - OK, elementary clue you did not write - is this 33 kV system?

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/25/2017 1:33 PM

Ref 6 - OK it's a hand isolator {at present}

- tomato/tomatoe

Ref 8 - Not really clear... this Schneider N series diagram [from document AMTED100051EN.pdf on their website] shows arrestors both sides - which ACR side do you have connected to source? Sorry I was looking at U series diagram but have now found N series. Connection does decide if CVT is source or vacuum switched side.

- The current transformer (#2) would be the source side on our ACR as related to this is screenshot. CVT would be "output" side in our case.

Ref 14 - OK, you have now revealed 133 km of line in ACR circuit, plus how much more to hydro generator?? I feel the line lengths are not negligible & loadings light - possible voltage rise along lines. Transient data logging by ACR controller will help gremlin hunt.

- line length to hydro generator is about 105 km (12 km to substation...which is technically a switching station) from ACR. We have a big load center 7 km upstream from ACR, and a huge tobacco factory 12 km from that which operates 24/7 that keeps our voltages decent. I agree on transient data logging...awaiting on new batteries.

Ref 16 - OK, elementary clue you did not write - is this 33 kV system?

-...BINGO!

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#21

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/20/2017 7:17 AM

Replace AR along with your maintenance team.

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Auto-Recloser Issue

08/20/2017 3:53 PM

lol...this guy.

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