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Liquid and Tank

08/22/2017 11:33 PM

What is the calculation between density of any liquid leakage from different height from tank ??

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#1

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/22/2017 11:41 PM

Liquids are the same density everywhere.

Restate the question, please.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 2:29 AM

If we use liquid as a water and liquid as a caustic soda and liquid as a HCL.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 2:53 AM

Water@4°C = 1000 kg/m3

Sodium Hydroxide (caustic soda)@ 15°C = 1250 kg/m3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrochloric_acid

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/liquids-densities-d_743.html

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#8
In reply to #3

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 4:03 AM

Even if you add those three very carefully attempting to form distinct layers by density, vigorous mixing will occur upon addition due to the ensuing violent reaction at the boundary.

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#11
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Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 12:34 PM

depends on the concentration of the chemicals in the tank, and if they are properly mixed with any water diluent added. There is ample literature on these commodity chemicals for density as a function of concentration and temperature. Use it.

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#22
In reply to #11

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 2:34 PM

So in theory one could pour these three chemicals into one tank and they'd separate into density layers, like a pousse-cafe? Assuming none of them reacted with each other?

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 3:10 PM

It can be done, but I would not try it with things like caustic soda 50% as an over layer to sulfuric acid 98%. The heat of reaction would result in a huge steam explosion!

Clearly, one group I am aware of capitalizes on stratification of sea water brine (of various states of water recovery (brine strength)) to manage heat loss of their solar absorber ponds.

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#24
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Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 4:00 PM

How does that work? Different salt concentrations=different layers=different rates of heat gain/loss?

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/25/2017 8:58 AM

The idea of saline gradient pond:

(1) greater density of solution (near saturation salt solution) at the bottom with dark geofabric to absorb sunlight.

(2) lower density solution (with much lower salt concentration such as seawater) at the top of the pond, cannot thermally mix with the saturated solution, and has a much lower heat loss to the atmosphere as a result.

(3) in Baja region, the brine pool can reach temperatures above 220 °F as I recall, with no solar concentration factor, i.e. one Sol input.

(4) the temperature difference between the brine pond outlet and the seawater intake is sufficient to drive a supercritical carbon dioxide piston engine by switching the heat exchange jacket flow between heat source and heat sink. The engine drives a hydraulic pump that in turn produces motive power for RO pump on seawater RO.

(5) Other ponds utilize the various brines to produce and separate mineral salts from seawater in a mining operation that for example provide magnesium brine to magnesium metal refining operations elsewhere.

global seawater extraction technologies

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#27
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Re: Liquid and Tank

08/25/2017 2:31 PM

Thanks for the lucid explanation! I had never heard of this technology--interesting and clever, using heat exchange to drive the operation.

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#28
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Re: Liquid and Tank

08/25/2017 3:37 PM

When I first learned about them, I called them up and spoke with the CEO, and what a personable and likable man he is! Then he gave me the contact for his lead engineer on the project - a man named Fuhrman, as I recall, and we spoke at length about it.

They more or less cobbled together a real winner. No fuel burn at all, generates some electricity by letting down pressure off the ocean water concentrate from the RO, provides drinking water to the nearby resort community, and there was even talk of supplying a stream of pure water (not chip grade, but easily polished to chip grade water) to a potential semiconductor manufacturer that was tentatively (at the time) planning a chip plant there.

I think they might also recover some lithium, along with the magnesium and calcium chlorides but obviously the major tonnage is simple sodium chloride dry salt. I cannot remember, but I would not be surprised to learn that they had sodium bromide tonnage as well.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/25/2017 4:04 PM

This is the kind of story you find on the Interesting Engineering website. I am always intrigued by this kind of ingenuity. The engineers didn't use an atom bomb to kill a fly. They sat down and thought outside the box, to use a hackneyed phrase. The way the Apollo 13 astronauts cobbled together a functional air filter (or whatever it was) out of practically nothing is to me the height of creativity and ingenuity and keeping clear-headed under pressure. Hope we don't lose that kind of intelligence.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/25/2017 4:20 PM

Flickers of brilliance are everywhere, one hopes they will appear in the most crucial moments in history!

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#7
In reply to #1

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 3:55 AM

"....Liquids are the same density everywhere.....'

.

A useful approximation in many circumstances, but not accurate when small changes in density matter.

Water, like everything else is compressible.

Along with the preasure gradient with height, if there is also a temperature gradient with warmer water at the top, the density variations could be even larger (still quite miniscule though for any realistic tank).

There could also be haloclines.

.

Forgive me. I saw some nits and it looked like a decent time for a small harvest.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 4:06 AM

Or, you misinterpreted my remarks.

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#14
In reply to #9

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 5:00 PM

That is certainly possible.

Especially if by "...Liquids are the same density everywhere...." you meant 'Liquid density varies with various factors including height in a fluid column due to compressibility'.

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 10:24 AM

No, you planted your own nits, then picked them.

As I understood the question, my answer is correct and you have unnecessarily thrown much confusion onto a simple question. Not an unusual response here in the land of, "I know more than you".

Rixter's example simply explains what many here believe the question actually asked.

I do admit that OP used the word density, and I concur with your assertion that liquids are (minutely) compressible. But, for the purposes of the discussion to hand, my answer is sufficiently correct so as to not require any confusing corrections.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 11:38 AM

No confusing corrections were offered.

You don't seem confused, at least....with the possible exception of your odd boast about knowing more than I do.

Of course there are things you know more about than me, I suspect a great many things. Even so, there are some thing I know you probably don't....regardless of whatever land in which you believe yourself to be.

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#19
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Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 12:00 PM

That is the most ridiculous statement you have ever made. To pretend that the land of, "I know more than you" was a statement of my knowledge is idiocy. You, once again have put your own meaning to my words!

Deflection only works in politics!

I have said this before, this forum's members (you in this case) have a tendency to not let adequate answers stand when they think they can prove superior knowledge by adding meaningless (unneeded) corrections/additions that as often as not only add confusion to the already befuddled OP.

Now, dismount your high horse and stick to the answer that will best suit the OP's question.

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#25
In reply to #19

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 6:04 PM

"...That is the most ridiculous statement you have ever made..."

Hahaha! I can't tell whether you have misattributed a quality to me akin to ever present seriousness, or if you just grossly underestimate my fluency in ridiculousness.

Whatever path you chose, you yourself have arrived at a quite ridiculous conclusion. You have made a conclusion that you should realize the information you have is grossly insufficient to support.

If the point was to flex your own ridiculousness prowess, then well done.

Cheers.

I started of saying your approximation was valid in most cases....Without a healthy dose of the ridiculous you run the risk of taking yourself far more seriously than is warranted. Case in point.

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#13
In reply to #7

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 1:34 PM

At least you didn't see nits and try to out "wit" them. ROFLMAO!

That was a very clever remark on your part.

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#2

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 12:24 AM
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#5

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 3:29 AM

What is the real question?
Density impact on the pressure in the tank is variable over the height of the fluid level height in the tank but not dependent on the height of the tank.

The pressure differential will allow the fluids to flow past the leak but the leak rate will mostly depend on the leak geometry and is also dependent on the viscosity of the fluid.

If the leak is at the top of the tank the density has almost no impact on the leak rate and leak only occurs when the fluid level is higher than the leak.

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#6

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 3:31 AM

It involves the shape of the tank, which has been withheld from the forum.

Any calculation is merely a mathematical abstract based upon observable facts.

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#10

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 11:46 AM

Pressure is proportional to depth.

Leakage increases with pressure, but the relationship is not simple. Use an online calculator to determine flow rate for a given pressure.

http://www.pipeflowcalculations.net/orifice.xhtml

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#12

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/23/2017 12:55 PM

Define leakage. I have seen a 1/4" dia. corrosion hole in a 40' high vessel that shot out around 6'. Different vessel but same height and volume with a valve gasket leak that was a slow steady drop.

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#15

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 10:01 AM

If tank leaks, fix.

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#16

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 10:16 AM

Define question. Is there a time variant between when the the leakage is minor and becomes major in determining when the tank should be repaired or replaced ?

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#20

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 12:14 PM

Sorry !!! But my question is -- Is there is any relation between density of liquid kept in different tank, if it is leakage from tank at same height to touch the ground. Suppose i have different type of liquid such as water , Brine , caustic , HCL in different tank so what is the relation in which if this liquid leakage from same height to touch the ground

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Liquid and Tank

08/24/2017 12:29 PM

There are several variables at play. The size of the hole leaking, the density of each liquid along with the column height of liquid above said hole. This leak has no effect on the contents of the tank other than reducing the amount of said liquid contained in the tank, not the composition of the solution.

To directly answer your question - No.

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